- Time of past OR future Camino
- First one in 1977 by train. Many since then by foot. Next one ASAP.
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Stone stacking destroys the environment for clicks and likes
Stone stackers enjoy the practice as a peaceful challenge, but scientists warn that moving small stones has mountainous consequences.bigthink.com
Stone stacking on the trails where I walk in the Rocky Mountains has long been used as a way of route marking over passes and in other areas where it is the only simple way to indicate a route. Recently, Parks Canada officials in Banff National Park decided to disassemble inuksuks in the park. I was pleased, and relieved, to see that they had disappeared, as they were only found as a sign of "I was here" in the busier backcountry areas. I always regard any type of graffiti in natural areas as offensive, a clear sign of the stupidity of its creator.
The article referenced above describes its use by the Inuit, native peoples of Northern Canada, as a direction and location marker, with so many useful purposes that it has its own symbolic language. Examples which I have seen often look like a rough stone statue of a person, made of slabs of stone with an arm pointing in some direction. I cannot offer you details, but find imitations in National Parks to be offensive and (literally) pointless.OK what is an inuksuk please?
samarkand
It shows that there is going to be a fairly broad range of opinions here. There has certainly been some use in Australia by Europeans such as in exploration and survey work. But my take on the 'modern' use is that it is both unnecessary and environmentally insensitive. I see it as completely antiethical to the leave no trace principles. I cannot test the physcological inclinations of those who do contribute to building them, but I do take is as a sign that some immature or egotistical idiot has been there before me. Pity.However, it seems unnecessary (and inaccurate, I believe) to say that rock stacking is an offensive egotistical action perpetrated by stupid people. OK, I am going a little over-the-top here, too.
Very good article. I appreciated it stated that the offenders have not realized they are vandalizing, but rather ignorant. Thankfully more awareness of this problem is being made in the media to hopefully discourage the trend. Although I've never participated in the fad, I always thought them "cute" and have taken photos, but I now have a different view.Here's an Irish solution to an Irish (and Spanish) problem:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/burren-s-mini-dolmen-trend-criticised-1.748307
OK so the next thing will be that the Camino and the act of breathing will damage the environment. No more Camino in that case!! I cannot believe that the movement of a few stones is going to have that much impact when compared to the mega building projects currently being undertaken across the globe.Stone stacking destroys the environment for clicks and likes
Stone stackers enjoy the practice as a peaceful challenge, but scientists warn that moving small stones has mountainous consequences.bigthink.com
Some building might be a discretionary human activity, but most isn't. Breathing certainly isn't, but stone stacking most definitely is.OK so the next thing will be that the Camino and the act of breathing will damage the environment. No more Camino in that case!! I cannot believe that the movement of a few stones is going to have that much impact when compared to the mega building projects currently being undertaken across the globe.
It can also prevent one significant cause of the impulse to more environmental damage, and perhaps give the environment the chance to heal itself.That doesn't repair the environmental damage, but it can be cathartic.
Yes. It appears ai was unaware of the wide use of these stones as trail markers elsewhere and everywhere! Oooops...They are helpful at decision points and forks etc.Used sensibly 'Cairns' actually serve a useful purpose. I have been glad of them hiking in the UK Lake District in bad weather. They indicate the path.
But 'random' stone stacking is somewhat self indulgent
I thought those were givens: the impact of the Xunta's drag-planed & stone-surfaced Autopista de Peregrin is visible to all. And the damage caused by human breath to the cave paintings at Lascaux and the decorations in the tombs of the Valley of the Kings is well documented. Take only photographs (no flash!); Leave only footprints: Oh, and hold-your-breathOK so the next thing will be that the Camino and the act of breathing will damage the environment. No more Camino in that case!! I cannot believe that the movement of a few stones is going to have that much impact when compared to the mega building projects currently being undertaken across the globe.
I can certainly agree that rock piling is antithetical to the "leave no trace" principles. What I'm not so sure of is to what extent the "leave no trace" principles apply to the Camino.It shows that there is going to be a fairly broad range of opinions here. There has certainly been some use in Australia by Europeans such as in exploration and survey work. But my take on the 'modern' use is that it is both unnecessary and environmentally insensitive. I see it as completely antiethical to the leave no trace principles. I cannot test the physcological inclinations of those who do contribute to building them, but I do take is as a sign that some immature or egotistical idiot has been there before me. Pity.
Like most things - it's a question of scale. When everyone jumps on the bandwagon, what was acceptable becomes not so.We are learning that stone stacking is not evironmentally sound and although can be an interesting type of "art" in some landscapes, doing it for "fun" should be avoided.
I have been on a few rather remote trails over the years, and seeing a few small single stacks used as trail markers was very comforting to my well-being and beneficial.
You raise an interesting point, but if this is the foundation of your argument, I don't think it is as strong as you need to make your case. Amongst other things, this looks like any other unfounded special pleading. I would only have to point out that one long distance walk has cultural as well as natural values to disprove your contention here, and I can point out many. Some that I have walked include pilgrimage routes in Norway, Sweden and Australia.But it seems to me that one of the things that is different between the Camino and the other long distance trails is that it is not just a long walk through nature.
Stone cairn or way marker ? Both serve a similar purpose . A stone cairn is constructed from local stone sourced perhaps within a metre of its location , it will survive for as long as it is maintained and then , when we are all dust, return to its natural environment. A constructed way marker is invariably a lump of environmentally destructive, energy consuming concrete , or a piece of timer and metal pressure treated with toxic chemicals made to stand out against its surroundings rather than blend in .
I would agree that cairns on otherwise well trodden and unmistakable paths are folly and personal indulgences similar to the ' Foo Was Here ' phenomena of the 40's through to the late 60's , however there is a place for them , particularly in mountainous regions where a wrong move can spell disaster.
I would rather not see markers in pristine environments, but they are necessary in some circumstances and certainly preferable to countless search and rescue efforts caused by their absence .
I know I would much rather see and follow a loose stone cairn tended by countless walkers before me than a painted orange, treated pine post with a plastic /aluminium composite plaque on it.
As a foot note , I owe my own life to a simple stone cairn some two feet high , but that is another story .
OK what is an inuksuk please?
Well, churches and cairns of the inuksuk kind have a practical purpose and serve(d) the local communities."purpose"
I never noticed a difference really. Actually, what I did notice is that more of the brass markers on the mojons showing the remaining kilometers left to walk to Santiago were stolen. It was disgusting to see this over and over again.also, these visually polluting eyesores seem to diminish in frequency the closer you get to Galicia and Santiago. Or is that a wrong impression?
I don't follow this line of reasoning. The issue to me is not that different areas have different preserved values. Clearly there are going to be differences among the many different areas, some of it depending on the past and current degree of human activity that has altered the landscape. But that should not, in my view, alter our obligation to be good custodians of these environments. And one of the ways we talk about that today is through the 'leave no trace' principles. They can be applied just as readily on the Camino as in any wilderness area, and I think we should do so.I understand that there is a huge difference between the practice of stone stacking in pristine areas like National Parks and wilderness areas, and the placing of stones on markers etc on heavily trafficked walking route like the Camino Francis.
A point to ponder: what committee decided that affixing expensive, high scrap value, Brass plaques to Mojones was a better idea than simply cutting the numbers into the stone. I don't suppose many Pilgrims availed themselves of half-a-kilo of compound metal but I can imagine a whole range of likely-lads who could have done with the €'s.IActually, what I did notice is that more of the brass markers on the mojons showing the remaining kilometers left to walk to Santiago were stolen. It was disgusting to see this over and over again.
Great point, but I suppose there was grant money to be used up, again and again.A point to ponder: what committee decided that affixing expensive, high scrap value, Brass plaques to Mojones was a better idea than simply cutting the numbers into the stone. I don't suppose many Pilgrims availed themselves of half-a-kilo of compound metal but I can imagine a whole range of likely-lads who could have done with the €'s.
You know, I had read about the missing brass markers on the mojones in Galicia but when we walked last year on the CF in Galicia in November 2019, there were definitely lots of brass markers in place. I remember because I tend to roll my eyes each time I see the 3 digits after the decimal comma.Actually, what I did notice is that more of the brass markers on the mojons showing the remaining kilometers left to walk to Santiago were stolen. It was disgusting to see this over and over again.
Glue that keeps metal and stone together? Let's hope the km brass plates didn't fall off by themselves. Nothing would surprise me ...The thick glue was left behind so they were definitely removed by vandals
Well, glue was just the best word I thought of to describe what I saw.Glue that keeps metal and stone together? Let's hope the km brass plates didn't fall off by themselves. Nothing would surprise me ....
Ah, that well known, committee approved, super adhesive: "Wishful Thinking", available at a Parish Council near youWell, glue was just the best word I thought of to describe what I saw.
Maybe it was super glue, gorilla glue, epoxy...or, or, or!
I may report you to the moderators...OK, I am going a little over-the-top here, too.
Yep, you can report her directly to herI may report you to the moderators...
My great-great-grandfather, a Victorian amateur antiquarian, made up these fake standing stones in the 19th century, at the top of the hill above my house, not far from Hadrian's Wall. They're just piles of small stones, but look quite good from a distance and, if the cloud or mist is at the right height, very slightly as if the Scots are invading us again. It's a long way from the nearest road and very difficult to remove the stones, so piling them up made the grass around more healthy and meant we could put more sheep on that bit of upper fell. Aesthetic and (slightly) practical.The OP recycled an oft discussed topic: people putting stones in piles for aesthetic/ un-aesthetic reasons. Nothing to do with how you or anyone else might choose to memorialize their dead.
... and was that stone wall fence a result of an earlier generation of stone collection from the surrounding fields?My great-great-grandfather, a Victorian amateur antiquarian, made up these fake standing stones in the 19th century, at the top of the hill above my house, not far from Hadrian's Wall. They're just piles of small stones, but look quite good from a distance and, if the cloud or mist is at the right height, very slightly as if the Scots are invading us again. It's a long way from the nearest road and very difficult to remove the stones, so piling them up made the grass around more healthy and meant we could put more sheep on that bit of upper fell. Aesthetic and (slightly) practical.
I'm instantly minded of this: https://www.visitcumbria.com/evnp/nine-standards/My great-great-grandfather, a Victorian amateur antiquarian, made up these fake standing stones in the 19th century, at the top of the hill above my house, not far from Hadrian's Wall. They're just piles of small stones, but look quite good from a distance and, if the cloud or mist is at the right height, very slightly as if the Scots are invading us again. It's a long way from the nearest road and very difficult to remove the stones, so piling them up made the grass around more healthy and meant we could put more sheep on that bit of upper fell. Aesthetic and (slightly) practical.
View attachment 79821
I thought at first that you referred to the new Cumbria Cottages, which appeared when I clicked on the link.I'm instantly minded of this: https://www.visitcumbria.com/evnp/nine-standards/
when viewed from the vale they loom, a threat, against the darkening sky.
It's amazing what you can do with a rock innit?
@alansykes has just given me this thought...I love Ireland (and England) and marveled at all the beautiful stone walls in the countryside, used for clearing land, defining property lines, and to keep grazing animals from wandering off. A whole new thought on stone stacking...I'm a bit off piste here, but just thought I'd make a mention.
Thank you, @Paladina for bringing Robert Frost to my attention. I hadn't thought about his poems for a very long time so took a peek on google...wonderful stuff!Ah yes, but if you live in dry stone wall country you'll have personal experience of Robert Frost's 'something there is that doesn't love a wall'.
You can be so funny at times, Tinky, (I mean @Tincatinker)...keep that Rioja in the house.Sorry about that. Posting from my phone while fairly full of a rather nice Rioja. I was referring to the Nine Standards not the cottages. Tomorrow’s gonna be a sober day
In southern New England, USA I frequently find stacked stones. On subsequent hikes these stones are usually pushed over. Suppose bears or other hikers disapprove. I've seen some piles that involve heavy rocks. These are potentially dangerous to small children. I do not feel strongly about these. What I do marvel is that our area has a thriving population of Copper Head snakes which are poisonous. There are also large non poisonous snakes which will bite.Stone stacking destroys the environment for clicks and likes
Stone stackers enjoy the practice as a peaceful challenge, but scientists warn that moving small stones has mountainous consequences.bigthink.com
Does that mean no more placing stones at the base of the Iron Cross?Stone stacking destroys the environment for clicks and likes
Stone stackers enjoy the practice as a peaceful challenge, but scientists warn that moving small stones has mountainous consequences.bigthink.com
No, it doesn't.Does that mean no more placing stones at the base of the Iron Cross?
You might have missed my earlier response on the question of buildings, which was:I personally find it fascinating that this is an issue, obviously we all need more walking time. As I simply believe we carry a rock from home, build houses, courtyards & other useful things. Why get worked up over someone stacking or balancing stones. The human footprint is not going away.
Raising the issue of building, even perhaps things are are quite temporary in nature, is a distraction in my view. Yes, we do that, and we decorate and enhance those buildings in ways well beyond what is required merely for functionality. We like to live in elegant surroundings, and I have no difficulty with making our own built environment pleasing as well as functional.
But we now have well over a century of deliberately preserving areas of natural and cultural significance in national or similarly protected parks and places, starting in the US around the turn of the 20thC. Even outside of these well protected areas, I believe we have a moral obligation to leave having made as little change as possible. Leave only footprints.
Yes I did miss that, my only response is that we can’t decide for others what drives them to stack or balance rock, I found it interesting where I picked my rock to carry on the Camino someone decided to balance rocks in the exact location. Call me crazy but there is a connection we bring when we leave our stone.You might have missed my earlier response on the question of buildings, which was:
There is a place for cairns but it certainly is not on well established trails. I feel it is best to limit your impact or presence in the wilderness.The article referenced above describes its use by the Inuit, native peoples of Northern Canada, as a direction and location marker, with so many useful purposes that it has its own symbolic language. Examples which I have seen often look like a rough stone statue of a person, made of slabs of stone with an arm pointing in some direction. I cannot offer you details, but find imitations in National Parks to be offensive and (literally) pointless.
Sorry but do not understand point you are trying to make including last sentence and word memorialize. What is OP?Not sure what you are referring to @peterbells? There is a modern tradition of leaving a stone at the Iron Cross as a symbol of a burden set down and left behind you as you continue your pilgrimage - endless seeming debate here has never identified the roots of that tradition. The Way, the movie, planted a notion of the camino as a reliquary process in the minds of many but the Camino de Santiago was, historically at least, a simple pilgrimage to the shrine of the apostle - Spiritually rewarding perhaps but containing no particular relationship to those gone before or beyond.
The OP recycled an oft discussed topic: people putting stones in piles for aesthetic/ un-aesthetic reasons. Nothing to do with how you or anyone else might choose to memorialize their dead.
I was responding to your post: "This discussion seems to have strayed a lot from original topic. The Camino is different and for some is a personal pilgrimage and I always thought leaving a stone for a deceased loved one was an accepted practice."Sorry but do not understand point you are trying to make including last sentence and word memorialize. What is OP?
When I did my first Camino I found various comments about leaving a stone not just in memory but also something (cannot remember exact words now) about writing a word/phrase on a stone about something that concerns you and the leaving of the stone lets you "leave that matter" on the Camino as a way of starting afresh.
Is this another example of Camino meaning different things to different people.
Buen Camino.
Having read all of the posts,I am indeed puzzled. With the virus rampaging in Spain and around the world,fretting about stacks on rocks would only seemingly come from a well-fed,comfortable,developed country. I missed the one place on The Aragonne last fall that had a patch od stone-stacking,and was sorry that i had. Perhaps the frances is pestered by many of these things,i do not know. Many years ago I came upon a stone pile high in the cascades in the goat rocks,and I marveled at its size and beauty. It showed that many people had come this way before,which did not take away from my own experience. We can all march to our own music. If you want to add a stone,good. If you want to tear a pile down,good. Either was,it would seem that you are not hurting anyone. Some people leave stones,some leave crosses in fences. I do not care for these,but it must have meant something to someone who passed this was. Cannot we become less of a dictator of our own pleasures and views?Stone stacking destroys the environment for clicks and likes
Stone stackers enjoy the practice as a peaceful challenge, but scientists warn that moving small stones has mountainous consequences.bigthink.com
Jill, you just gave me a good laugh at the end of my day!" There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise." (and sadly, those of you who continue to wear convertible pants and macabe skirts still won't listen to me, either).
Jill, you just gave me a good laugh at the end of my day!
These kinds of posts always go down a dark path.
" There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise." (and sadly, those of you who continue to wear convertible pants and macabe skirts still won't listen to me, either).
You completely missed @JillGat 's self-deprecating humour.I can’t believe this has devolved into policing clothing choices on a Camino.
Indeed, and in a more general sense as well. But we can all challenge ourselves to think more deeply about these issues, whether it be the particulars of stone stacking or our broader impact upon our environment.Yes I did miss that, my only response is that we can’t decide for others what drives them to stack or balance rock
It's sad that you think that matters associated with preserving and protecting the environment are unworthy of discussion on this forum. Perhaps you would like to start discussions on some of your more important problems rather than sniping at those of us who are contributing to this discussion. After all, wasn't it you that posted:In a world of so many big problems I am concerned that energy is given to this.
When someone tells a story or shares a view there is always someone who wants to belittle or put down the comment. Its much easier to use your energy to be kind. Try it please.
Dear Sir - Sorry if my comment made you sad. I did not snipe. I said and am concerned. I also asked for balance and to look after the land and for education. There are many worthy environmental issues which I believe in. Sadly they are not being addressed fully. If we look to a balance life we go some way to helping on most of these issues.It's sad that you think that matters associated with preserving and protecting the environment are unworthy of discussion on this forum. Perhaps you would like to start discussions on some of your more important problems rather than sniping at those of us who are contributing to this discussion. After all, wasn't it you that posted:
I think it's time for me to let others continue if they wish. This thread meandered along for over 80 posts with quite a lot of back and forth that seemed generally to respect the positions taken by others. Effectively disparaging everyone for wasting our energy seems an odd way to preamble one's contribution. I don't understand most of this response, and don't have the energy right now to try and decipher it.Dear Sir - Sorry if my comment made you sad. I did not snipe. I said and am concerned. I also asked for balance and to look after the land and for education. There are many worthy environmental issues which I believe in. Sadly they are not being addressed fully. If we look to a balance life we go some way to helping on most of these issues.
I'm just not sure I would consider the Camino "wilderness" in the same way that I would consider the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail "wilderness". It is a cultural route through mostly populated areas. You spend a heck of a lot more time walking through farmland or villages than you do through untouched wilderness.There is a place for cairns but it certainly is not on well established trails. I feel it is best to limit your impact or presence in the wilderness.
I find the practice of stone stacking along the Camino to be a bit silly, and when the piles/stacks get large the are a bit of an eyesore IMO, and hardly resemble a stone cairn of ancient times. It also to me falls under the category of one of those hip things to do when walking the Camino that has evolved from media about the walk. Stone stacking. Burning your clothes and shoes in Muxia/Finisterre (please do not ever do that...it's wrong for so many reasons). Tossing a rock or some other bit of something on that pile at Cruz de Ferro. Camino families. Eating pulpo. Dangling a shell of your pack. A few other things I cannot think of right now.
Yes, some of those things are nice, but it is okay to buck the trend.
Mind you, stone stacking falls waaaay down on my list on Camino peeves. It is far overshadowed by acts of idiocy such as graffiti along the Camino. Trash, garbage and shit strewn on the route. Cheap Charlie's that can afford to pay at donativo's but do not. Destruction, defacing of the kilometre markers on the route. Apishly prying off the brass plate so it becomes some type of childish souvenir. Selfish, rude behavior in albergues.
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