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If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1
If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:
11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast
We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.
Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros
Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:
This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.
These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.
I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie
Yes, that's sad but I'm glad the hospitaleros are being frank about the situation.Let's hope they leave a sign up, or something similar, to remind newcomers.
I also remember that the hospitaleros in Grañon explained that.When I stayed at Grañon the hospitalera clearly explained to all of us that there was enough money for a communal dinner that night because of the previous day donations. The communal dinner for the following day pilgrims depended on OUR donations. If we didn't or couldn't , then there would be nothing for the others.
What is horrible in this case is that no-one deigned leave a reasonable amount.
I am lost for words....
(as an aside:I'm ashamed to admit it but, had I stayed at the one donativo albergue I approached on the Francés [I was 'rejected and ejected,' but that's another story, which I can now laugh about] I would have donated what I now know is a trivial amount...simply because I didn't know, and did not appreciate the significance of it all. To be quite honest, I had so much going through my mind at the time, that I never gave it a thought, other than that it was a charitable organization offering shelter for just that - a donativo - for which shelter I was very grateful. It was only after I returned from my Camino and started really following this forum that I began to appreciate what these donativo albergues offered - a place to stay for pilgrims who could afford to pay, and a place to stay for pilgrims who could not afford to pay.
Obviously, what I needed on the Camino was a slap upside the head to make me appreciate how these donativo albergues actually operate. I'm sure it is not simply a matter of pilgrims not wanting to part with their money. Perhaps, as some members have already posted, some indication could be made of what would be a reasonable donation, and why, so that pilgrims could at least be made aware of what, and of whom, they are taking advantage.
Please don't anyone get on my case and say that I should have known better. Yes, I should have, but the fact is, I didn't.
(BTW, the reason I was rejected and ejected from that donativo albergue is that I 'fessed up to not having carried my pack that day, which is a no-no ... not the 'fessing up ... just the not carrying my pack, but that's another thread.)
I have done the same thing when reserving somewhere and staying elsewhere in the end. Great tip!(as an aside:
one option for anyone who has experienced a similiar situation (and finds out afterwards), would be perhaps tucking sufficient euro notes in an envelope and addressing to that albergue you/they stayed and did not know about the 'donativo system'.
For e.g. I've severly underpaid something in the mid-80's in Bantry/Eire -- and whenever i thought of that incidence, i felt a twinge about it - so some years ago I finally dug up that address via the trusty ol' www. and placed 10$ in an envelope and send it off w/ a li'l note about the 'why'. veryyyy late action. but i always feel when we know better we do better
buen camino - saluti -
So true.If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1
If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:
11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast
We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.
Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros
Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:
This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.
These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.
I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie
Charge.What are your ideas?
If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1
If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:
11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast
We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.
Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros
Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:
This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.
These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.
I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie
Margaret....what can be done? My husband ( fraluchi) say charge for the stay! I'm not so sure, BUT I do think a special nicely worded sigh should be placed in a visible place explaining that donativo does not mean free! Also the donation box should be placed in a safe, but visible place.
Another poster could state the general running expenses of an Albergue: cleaning, electricity, gas, pest ( bed bug control), rotation laundry of bed linen, replacements in the kitchen, etc. etc!!!!!!!
The time has come to run this place like a business. How much does it cost to run daily, per Pilgrim, and charge that amount.
I'm going to let Adrian ( fraluchi) reply to this, as he has much more information than me. However, he says that most of what you thought is not true. He'll get back to this thread a bit later!Hi, I have always understood that “donativo” means they are not allowed to officially charge set rates because they are not licensed as a business. Is this correct? So they have to operate with suggested “donations”. Once they are licensed to trade (in order to charge set prices) they are then subject to stringent rules and regulations regarding hygiene, fire exits, and everything else that comes under “health and safety” in the EU nowadays. While they remain “donativo” they can run their establishment however they wish, without being subject to governmental inspections. Jill
Happy to be corrected! Would like to know the official ruling on "donativos". JillI'm going to let Adrian ( fraluchi) reply to this, as he has much more information than me. However, he says that most of what you thought is not true. He'll get back to this thread a bit later!
Sixty percent of the pilgrims are Spanish, so I am not sure it is an English-language-country problem! The U.S., UK, and Ireland were in the top foreigner countries in August, but far behind European countries.In Cape Town South Africa
Sixty percent of the pilgrims are Spanish, so I am not sure it is an English-language-country problem
I vividly remember the one Albergue on the VDLP which was totally free and that was Casar de Caceres. The cafe across the road which holds the key refused to accept our donations although we were about 8 English speakers trying to give money.Thanks everyone for explaining how these donativos work and how we should not treat them as free.
The camino has seen a whole lot of crime and abuse, freeloading and bureaucracy over its thousand years. This is only the latest wave.
Albergues come and they go, just like pilgrims, just like hospitaleros, just like the impoverished spirits who won't pay their share.
The simple generosity that is the camino spirit will survive us all.
Margaret....what can be done? My husband ( fraluchi) say charge for the stay! I'm not so sure, BUT I do think a special nicely worded sigh should be placed in a visible place explaining that donativo does not mean free! !
What a shame that this should happen at this lovely albergue which we stayed at many years ago. We felt it right that 20euros each was given for a lovely meal and a place to sleep with a hot shower. This year we stayed in a casa rual because, thank the Lord we could afford it. I find it funny and rather sad that the self same people who do not support the albergue are well able to support the local bar! Would they ask for their drinks to be given in exchange for a donation? I think not. These so called pilgrims tat drink at the bars and have all the latest gizmos are beyond any respect.If you are on facebook, you can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6&set=a.1418027445598.57644.1079987357&type=1
If you're not, or if you don't read Spanish, it says:
11 Aug. 2015
Today: There will be no communal dinner
Tomorrow: There will be no breakfast
We are sorry that we cannot offer you our traditional communal dinner or morning breakfast. The donations we received are so trivial and the number of people who sit down to eat is so large, that we don't have the funds to provide it. We only have enough to pay for the cleaning products.
Thanks for understanding, and buen camino from the hospitaleros
Under the facebook entry, the Refugio Ocacio and Arietta posted this commentary, which I have roughly translated:
This is an example of of what the Camino is like these days. People come to the camino to abuse the albergues and hospitaleros who dedicate their time to the Camino and to the pilgrims. More albergues should react like this one did so that the abuse stops.
These people spend their money in bars and on wine but when it comes to the time to donate, they don't leave anything. We support this notice and think that all of us should do the same thing.
I know that change is inevitable with the huge increase in pilgrim numbers, but this is a sad development. Buen camino, Laurie
That's how it was and is, where "donativo" is a choice of the owner(s). Eventually this may change, if and when the real "hospitalero" spirit is overruled by economical considerations.New albergues are built to code. Many of the old, traditional ones have not been required to renovate to code.[...]Twenty years ago, many places were the type where you dropped your pack and flopped down. [...]
My 1st ever night on the Camino was (unexpectedly) in a donativo albergue , la Kaserna in StJpdeP., newly opened. I had NO idea how much to give or what was expected so I asked the hospitalero, who had just arrived himself. He was brilliant :" let's say €10 for the bed, €10 for the meal so that'll be €20 and you get breakfast free"
I was very relieved he had been so straightforward and made it so easy.
BUT: and I hate to say this....Some (many!) of the pilgrims weren't happy! I was on duty to translate as neither the hospitalero nor his wife spoke anything but French and none of the pilgrims that night understood French.... LOTS of grumbling about 'this is way too much etc' . But they all paid up as he was -cheerfully- not having it any other way
It didn't mean much at the time for me (rabbit in headlights comes to mind!) but now I can see the larger picture. I think it needs a 'forceful' hospitalero/a to do exactly like he did. (Oh good, more stress for the hospitalero/a/s)
I don't know what the answer is... I'd like to think the people who can afford €10 for a bed will give that , there are many for whom it is a sacrifice, I'm thinking pilgrims from other countries.... I paid €12 or less for a (luxurious) whole house, many times, in Serbia, Bulgaria etc with people collecting the 'rent' for the owners apologising 'you sure you can afford this sort of money?' .... It is an eye-opener.
Even 'poor ' students in the West don't come anywhere close.
Hola, Trevor!A good thread to make one think, but I am disappointed at the finger pointing by some of the replies about certain country XYZ or such, I thought we were all just pilgrims, yes I have noticed those that short changed and felt sad but who am I to blame I do not know their story or how they see the world. Maybe a the old saying " he without sin cast the first stone" should apply or to those that have extra put it in and help, be it an Alburge or someone you meet on your Camino we will all feel much better helping. Oh believe me I am no saint and that's why I walk my Camino.
Kinkyone sorry if you were upset, but the point is nobody should judge without knowing the full story that you seemed to have missed, once again sorry to upset you.Hola, Trevor!
Maybe you should use "reply" or even "+quote" function to be sure to which previous post your response is targeting. But I guess it was mine. All I have to add is that all that I weanted to say was already said.
I agree it was finger-pointing, but that was my experience!!! NOT the specualation! Regardless to their stories I know what I have seen!!! Or if I put that differently - if you're not my family/friend and I don't know your "story" (in full extent) I shouldn't post anything about your behaviour even if very bad etc.???
Ultreia!
Hola, Trevor!
Maybe you should use "reply" or even "+quote" function to be sure to which previous post your response is targeting. But I guess it was mine. All I have to add is that all that I weanted to say was already said.
I agree it was finger-pointing, but that was my experience!!! NOT the specualation! Regardless to their stories I know what I have seen!!! Or if I put that differently - if you're not my family/friend and I don't know your "story" (in full extent) I shouldn't post anything about your behaviour even if very bad etc.???
Ultreia!
Yes. If you read a Mr Barnards book some about a "ball breaker " he and his son actually boast about leaving either nothing or 2 euros for both of them.Thank you Laurie for sharing this. Yet another example of what things have sadly come to. Acacio has had the courage to spell things out. I hope all those who see the signs in Granon learn something and start to question this business of "It's your Camino do as you please".
When someone thinks an albergues is free, who do they think is paying for it? I get the impression some people think the Spanish government is.
Exactly! I explained all this in my post above although, thankfully for me, I did not get the opportunity to take advantage of this 'charity.' I knew beforehand that 'donativo' did not mean 'free,' but I did not appreciate that it meant 'cover your costs and then some, if you can afford it.' BTW it was while I was on the Camino that I was first exposed to the idea that donativo means 'free' so, as has been mentioned, that notion is out there. People need to be disabused of that notion. A little education is what is needed here.Some think it is a charity freely and willingly given. Little do they know!
I'm ashamed to admit it but, had I stayed at the one donativo albergue I approached on the Francés [I was 'rejected and ejected,' but that's another story, which I can now laugh about] I would have donated what I now know is a trivial amount...simply because I didn't know, and did not appreciate the significance of it all. To be quite honest, I had so much going through my mind at the time, that I never gave it a thought, other than that it was a charitable organization offering shelter for just that - a donativo - for which shelter I was very grateful. It was only after I returned from my Camino and started really following this forum that I began to appreciate what these donativo albergues offered - a place to stay for pilgrims who could afford to pay, and a place to stay for pilgrims who could not afford to pay.
Obviously, what I needed on the Camino was a slap upside the head to make me appreciate how these donativo albergues actually operate. I'm sure it is not simply a matter of pilgrims not wanting to part with their money. Perhaps, as some members have already posted, some indication could be made of what would be a reasonable donation, and why, so that pilgrims could at least be made aware of what, and of whom, they are taking advantage.
Please don't anyone get on my case and say that I should have known better. Yes, I should have, but the fact is, I didn't.
(BTW, the reason I was rejected and ejected from that donativo albergue is that I 'fessed up to not having carried my pack that day, which is a no-no ... not the 'fessing up ... just the not carrying my pack, but that's another thread.)
When someone thinks an albergues is free, who do they think is paying for it?
Some think it is a charity freely and willingly given.
First, I think it's pretty clear that this is not an education problem.
... If the CSJ needs a minimum amount per pilgrim to keep going, they should just collect that amount from everyone and welcome donations.
The Holy Spirit.Now, seriously, I want to guess many of them don't bother to think about it.
Does it mean they consider themselves needed of charity? Would they say in their neighborhood that they are needed of charity?
I disagree. I think it's an education problem. Any educated person should be aware that people must be fairly rewarded for their job.
P.S.: I apologize that I arrived late to this thread and just read the OP and some of the posts.
At three of the refugios on the Camino de Madrid this Easter they refused to accept donativos. At one place, we put money and a note in the mailbox (municipal youth hostel), at two other places, we cleaned everything in sight and made sure we spent some money in the village bars and tried to be friendly company for the people who gave us the keys.
It's going to be very odd walking the Francés again, if we ever do that - so many people...
I came across quite a few people camping on the primitivo and they were complaining about still having to pay to camp in the albergue grounds - we are talking about €6 here and they would expect to use all the facilities, showers/kitchen/laundry/wifi and these people had expensive tents/therm arrests/sleeping bags/iPads so couldn't have been that hard up . It's such a greedy mentality I don't understand it, when I stayed in a donativo I paid €20 as it was an amazing place and the meal was fantastic but it's sad that people will try to get away with as little as possible betraying the goodwill of the hospitaleros
(as an aside:
one option for anyone who has experienced a similiar situation (and finds out afterwards), would be perhaps tucking sufficient euro notes in an envelope and addressing to that albergue you/they stayed and did not know about the 'donativo system'.
I even got into conversation about that with one of them and he simply said to me that he's paying taxes already and doesn't feel he should pay anything for his sleep in donativo albergues.
Are you saying only an uneducated person would not understand "Donativo".
I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.It's 2 years since I was at Granon, I will be there again in a few weeks. If I remember rightly the place to make your donation was an open basket/bowl and next to it was a sign saying that if you have need please take what you need??
I will be interested to see if there is still an open basket or other such container when I am there in the near future.
I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.
I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.
I'm curious, when you do the hospitalero course, do they teach you how to make sure money comes in? Clearly these hospitaleros were frustrated, but perhaps they had a rather difficult group,the night before who believe that they pay taxes so life on the Camino should be free, or what have you. But other than the schpeel you get in places like Guemes, are hospitaleros trained for this? I recall a very unpleasant incident in Sto Domingo, being bullied by the hospitaleros as we came in, telling us how things were to be, barking out orders, and then implying we were going to be cheapskates and they were martyrs or just about. Talk about encouraging pilgrims to misbehave . Never had I encountered such behaviour, and never since either, thank heavens.I was told there is the open container. Extra money was deposited in an account. There was more than enough. It looks like a hospitalero leadership fail to me.
There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. But it can be suggested certainly. It can be overwhelming to cook for 60, and I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. If you are serving with love, people give. There is a contact for hospititeros in Granon. After doing all the shopping, this couple deposited extra funds from the donative box into a bank account the contact person for Granon gave them. There was plenty of money. That is why I'm suspecting the new hospitaleros might have not been up to the task. I can think of no other reason why in two weeks they would have no money. It doesn't make sense to me in any other way. For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.I'm curious, when you do the hospitalero course, do they teach you how to make sure money comes in? Clearly these hospitaleros were frustrated, but perhaps they had a rather difficult group,the night before who believe that they pay taxes so life on the Camino should be free, or what have you. But other than the schpeel you get in places like Guemes, are hospitaleros trained for this? I recall a very unpleasant incident in Sto Domingo, being billied by the hospitaleros as we came in, telling us how things were to be, barking out orders, and then implying we were going to be cheapskates and they were martyrs or just about. Talk about encouraging pilgrims to misbehave . Never had I encountered such behaviour, and never since either, thank heavens.
There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. But it can be suggested certainly. It can be overwhelming to cook for 60, and I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. If you are serving with love, people give. There is a contact for hospititeros in Granon. After doing all the shopping, this couple deposited extra funds from the donative box into a bank account the contact person for Granon gave them. There was plenty of money. That is why I'm suspecting the new hospitaleros might have not been up to the task. I can think of no other reason why in two weeks they would have no money. It doesn't make sense to me in any other way. For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.
I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. ... I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess).
There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. But it can be suggested certainly. It can be overwhelming to cook for 60, and I can only guess this was the circumstance for why the note was put on the door. If you are serving with love, people give. There is a contact for hospititeros in Granon. After doing all the shopping, this couple deposited extra funds from the donative box into a bank account the contact person for Granon gave them. There was plenty of money. That is why I'm suspecting the new hospitaleros might have not been up to the task. I can think of no other reason why in two weeks they would have no money. It doesn't make sense to me in any other way. For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.
There was no need in this couple's case to ask for money at Granon. . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
For all the talk about pilgrims thinking donatives are free - I'm sure they don't and actually take in more being a donative. If an albergue asks me for 10 Euro, I'll pay 10 Euro. If it's donative, I'd pay more most likely. I think the hospitaleros were having issues with feeling overwhelmed (just a guess). Our trainers had just served 15 days at Granon before departing to the states. But with having a designated banking account for extra cash, I can't envision a shortage so soon.
I see little of that, but you may be right. I think it is OK to criticize hospitaleros! Granon has been around a long time. I doubt that experienced hospitaleros would have reacted with the sign; I doubt that "management" would have approved of the sign. Pilgrims can be freeloaders, which is why I regularly suggest that donativos go away! Set a price, then be charitable when necessary. Particularly if it was a one day crisis, it was more likely panic than necessity. That is not blaming the hospitaleros for the pilgrims who are cheapskates; it is criticizing hospitaleros for not maintaining calm.Sounds like blaming the victim to me.
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