- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2003 CF Ronces to Santiago
Hospi San Anton 2016.
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
A few years ago when the albergue was full it was almost always a given that one could find a room in a pension or hostal. It seems now that a lot of available accommodation in the mid to higher price range is booked in advance by tour companies. Even self organised groups of 10 or so book the cheaper rooms that are available for fear of being split up or turned away from albergues. Considering almost 1000 pilgrims are queuing for their Compostelas each day( this EXCLUDES the tourist on the Camino) - It leaves little left for the traditional CF SJPDP to Santiago Pilgrim. When we do get these waves of humanity .............there IS no other place to go?
I did the Camino Norte last year and in 2010, maybe once I arrive in SJP will determine if it's worth staying on before switching to Norte if CF too crowed. I am starting in Lourdes so should be a 8-10 trip before arriving in SJP.Buen Camino everyone.I think the Camino Francis has lost its soul. I was in ages 2 weeks ago. Ok for coffee. After 7 trips from sjpdep many people think they can turn up in sjpdep and walk themselves fit, most don't get past Pamplona. Switched to Irun and now on Norte. Lots tougher but a Camino experience. No bed problems . Albergues open later 1500 or 1600 hrs so no early risers. Bit of heaven. No over crowding. Seldom see top bunks occupied. Near Oviede and doing Primitivo to Lugo. Buen Camino
Yeah. IT's the people who keep coming back all the time that cause all the trouble and complain about the newbies! Go home, you repeat pilgrims, and stay home!
Yes there is. There are many, many pilgrim ways allover Europe that are not crowded at all.
@Rebekah Scott:Yeah. IT's the people who keep coming back all the time that cause all the trouble and complain about the newbies! Go home, you repeat pilgrims, and stay home!
I'm not sure what the answer is. The CF I am seeing today is different in many ways to the CF I saw in Apr 2010, or the CI in 2014. And perhaps its soul is different in some ways. But underneath the changes, there lurks much the same camaraderie among pilgrims from so many different nations, similar generosity of spirit of the Spanish people one meets, and a wonderful willingness of hospitaleros from both Spain and elsewhere to help.
I have been seeing it with others, and today that generosity was expressed in so many practical ways when my wife and I had to return to Burgos to get her to see a doctor. So many people went out of their way in both large and small ways to help - - fellow pilgrims who offered consolation and their prayers, the hospital staff who found an English speaking doctor, the couple at the bus stop who made sure we got on the correct bus and the man who helped us get off at the right place.
I didn't expect this pilgrimage to be the same, and it isn't. But the spirit of pilgrimage is still there, and has bubbled up when we most needed it.
As to the question posed in by the OP, it's not clear to me how one would be able to tell the extent that accommodation that can be booked is taken up, for example, by someone who has used an agent, or by the individual themselves. And it's not clear to if knowing that would make a difference. People running private albergues, hostels, etc are meeting a demand, and if that demand exceeds the available supply, some people will need to contemplate more costly accommodation options.
Yeah. IT's the people who keep coming back all the time that cause all the trouble and complain about the newbies! Go home, you repeat pilgrims, and stay home!
Waaaaa! Hehe Reb!
You may have to open your own bodegas to cope with the overflow and watch out for your chickens with all those hungry pilgrims around ..........Waaaaaaaaaa Haha!
...
Now if someone with real authority could just move the feast of St. James to mid-March.....
Hee hee ha ha ha.Yeah. IT's the people who keep coming back all the time that cause all the trouble and complain about the newbies! Go home, you repeat pilgrims, and stay home!
More importantly, the Spirit of the Camino will always remain because it is personal and individual.
The CF I am seeing today is different in many ways to the CF I saw in Apr 2010, or the CI in 2014. And perhaps its soul is different in some ways. But underneath the changes, there lurks much the same camaraderie among pilgrims from so many different nations, similar generosity of spirit of the Spanish people one meets, and a wonderful willingness of hospitaleros from both Spain and elsewhere to help.
In all due respect for your experience, as gaillimh, but is that really possible? I think not. As Michael and Doug said so well...it's inside, not outside. We've been talking about that here:I think the Camino Francis has lost its soul.
I think it is obvious that tour groups are adding to the congestion - demand for beds - but so what? ................
The "problem" with groups is their groupness. If everyone walked alone or in groups of two/three/four it would be easy to spread out. But get a few groups of 10 or 12 on the path and that just increases the odds that they'll move in synch at some point and increases the possibility of bottlenecks.
I imagine that tours and marketing being what they are the peaks will get peakier and the shoulder seasons will see increased traffic but not in proportion to the peaks.
Now if someone with real authority could just move the feast of St. James to mid-March.....
Hee hee ha ha ha.
OK. (Yeah, right....)
In all due respect for your experience, as gaillimh, but is that really possible? I think not. As Michael and Doug said so well...it's inside, not outside. We've been talking about that here:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...xpectations-and-other-petty-annoyances.40743/
Very practically, though it's a good question. What to do if it's 6PM and you've arrived somewhere and everything's booked out? Well, if you have a sleeping bag, there's always the church porch. Not so comfortable, maybe, but we are pilgrims, after all.
No doubt there will be someone to help. It's the Camino.
Indeed Heather...no window wars, or plastic bag symphonies... Let 'em have the albergue!
And lots cheaper than the 3 star laces the groupies get.
And you don't have to worry about the windows in the dorms being closed. No opened. No closed. No opened. NO, CLOSED. NO, OPENED!!!! Lots of fresh air under the church porch, with no need to open or close windows or curtains or worry about any of that stuff!
I think that we on the forum are also contributing to it by recommending that people book ahead. This bypasses a vast majority of the parochial/municipal beds (and many confraternity beds) and then hammers the smaller, upscale private albergues. Thus, the very frenzy reported here focuses greater volumes of traffic on a minority of resources, which further accentuates the perception of scarcity and feeds the frenzy.A few years ago when the albergue was full it was almost always a given that one could find a room in a pension or hostal. It seems now that a lot of available accommodation in the mid to higher price range is booked in advance by tour companies. Even self organised groups of 10 or so book the cheaper rooms that are available for fear of being split up or turned away from albergues. Considering almost 1000 pilgrims are queuing for their Compostelas each day( this EXCLUDES the tourist on the Camino) - It leaves little left for the traditional CF SJPDP to Santiago Pilgrim. When we do get these waves of humanity .............there IS no other place to go?
...'m going to advertise and get a group today to walk the Camino a la Fresco... These pilgrims would sleep under the stars the entire way; they'd have to ask permission of farmers to sleep outside in their (bare) fields or under their trees... Have to carry tarps or tents... Have to carry port-a-potties and their own coffee mugs. That would free up the alberques, B&Bs and hotels for the other people who want to sleep indoors and not rough it! And by the end, these pilgrims would be pretty rough themselves!
Do you think it would fly? Hahaha! (Nope, neither do it...especially when each person comes to the packing list: must carry own port-a-potty!)
I backpack with a 17 gram titanium cathole trowel, a 30 gram bottle of hand sanitizer, and a 21 gram packet of tissues. At 2.4 oz, I'll join your little soiree!Do you think it would fly? Hahaha! (Nope, neither do it...especially when each person comes to the packing list: must carry own port-a-potty!)
I'm going to advertise and get a group today to walk the Camino a la Fresco...
No worries about bedbugs or fleas, snoring people or bag rustlers either!
Me too.I would join such a group in a heart beat! SY
Sorry if this is a stupid/naive question, but I'm really curious about whether alternative routes are accepted for the offivial Compostela at the church in Santiago... Like, if I'm coming from the Primitivo, and Sarria to Santiago on the Frances is too crowded for me, and I forge my own parallel route (like through O Pino and across to Formaris, then South to Santiago), will that still be considered officially valid? Assuming I can get stamps along the way...
There is no requirement that it be on a specific pilgrimage path (Frances, Primitivo, etc.). You have to arrive, having walked the last 100km and collected two sellos a day. The distance should be readily obvious to any local. I suspect that the harder part is, if the places you stop don't have stamps, I'm not certain how the cathedral would look on five days' worth of handwritten notes from hostels/bars/etc. Thus, you probably have to balance going completely off the beaten path and staying proximate to more traveled paths.To be awarded the Compostela:
- You need to have made the pilgrimage for religious reasons or for a similar motivation such as a vow.
- You need to have walked or travelled on horseback at least the last 100kms, or cycled the last 200kms, to arrive at the tomb of the Apostle in the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela.
- You should collect at least two sellos (stamps) each day on your credencial. This will usually be where you sleep and one other place such as a Church, ayuntamiento, café etc. You must ensure that you do this at least in the last 100 kms from the Cathedral of Santiago if you are walking or on horseback and 200 kms if you are travelling by bicycle.
From what I saw last year, I would agree that yes, definitely they are, but......who are any of us to say each individual in the group should not his or her have their own experience. I was behind a tour group with over 60 people; apparently a tour opr who combined Spanish with Americans and most everything got backed up, including the loo lines at the cafesA few years ago when the albergue was full it was almost always a given that one could find a room in a pension or hostal. It seems now that a lot of available accommodation in the mid to higher price range is booked in advance by tour companies. Even self organised groups of 10 or so book the cheaper rooms that are available for fear of being split up or turned away from albergues. Considering almost 1000 pilgrims are queuing for their Compostelas each day( this EXCLUDES the tourist on the Camino) - It leaves little left for the traditional CF SJPDP to Santiago Pilgrim. When we do get these waves of humanity .............there IS no other place to go?
Maggie, you're an inspiration, as usual! I love that 'what the heck' attitude.But what the heck, go with the flow. I did finally find a pension and stayed 2 days. After that, I was solo much of the time and loving it.
This went in, sillydoll, thank you...that's a very good point and an assumption that I hadn't really been aware of before.I doubt very much it still works like that as so many people feel entitled to a bed in an albergue simply because they are walking to Santiago.
Good thing, indeed!Fortunately, most tour groups only stay in private accommodation
It's partly because most of us have grown up amid what is amazing luxury as compared with most people on this crowded planet--and cannot imagine life without a soft bed, running water, and a hot shower.There must be a reason why we don't sleep every day on a piece of cardboard in our living rooms or under a tarp in our backyards.
Hahahaha. Great post.
Well. I take groups and we book higher end hotels and apartments for the most part. We do book some private rooms above albergues. But as our taxi driver said when we asked him, "Peregrinos ARE the economy, and before them, there was none in many dying villages." So I refuse to feel guilty.
Maybe we should expect an official reaction.
I love the references to the Middle Ages, and it comes to mind several names of towns founded by kings expressly to help and hold the 'hordes' of pilgrims.
Sangüesa, Estella, Sto. Domingo de la Calzada...
They built bridges and hospitals and gave privileges and exemptions to some towns to receive the pilgrims.
Now the Camino is overcrowded and we must suffer the consecuences untill the accommodation supply is sufficient.
Yes, but we are talking about 20.000 maybe 30.000 pilgrims yearly. At the end of this year perhaps we shall speak about 300.000. And for sure, there were not tour companies, no tourist those years.The Camino was overcrowded long before the modern era. That is why, in the middle ages, at the height of the Santiago popularity, the town with the highest number of albergues was Burgos which in the 15th-c boasted 32 hospices, and even as pilgrimage declined, still supported 25 into the late 1700’s.
Astorga had 21, Carrion de los Condes had 14 and at one time there were 7 in Castrojeriz. Even small villages like Obanos and Viana had 'several' pilgrim shelters. A register dating1594 at the hospice at Villafranca de Montes de Oca recorded 16,767 pilgrims that year, over 200 on some days.
There would not have been so many shelters if there wasn't a demand for beds.
http://amawalker.blogspot.co.za/2008/10/back-to-past.html
. Which brings me back to the question of sizing "unsatisfied demand". Is it worth providing for more accommodations? When, where, and for which "market segment" ($$$)?[...] There would not have been so many shelters if there wasn't a demand for beds.
http://amawalker.blogspot.co.za/2008/10/back-to-past.html
This is a dangerous statement. Some might think everybody on the Way works for the pilgrims.
And nothing further from reality. Bars, hotels, hostels, taxies, groceries may be happy with this overcrowdedness, but those whose lifes and jobs are not related with the Camino may get tired easily. Specially if this lack of beds drives pilgrims into "wild" solutions.
Of course not. They caught a Ryan Air flight back.Surely that was 12,500 pilgrims going south or south-west and 12,500 pilgrims going north?
Hi all. I have been thinking about this subject for a long time. Sometimes looks like nobody want to be judged like judgmental, looks like we need to say everything its O.K.
Well, I think not everything is OK, and I dare to say it.
The Camino de Santiago is a pilgrimage. Its not a tourist thing. You can walk it like a tourist, of course, and it could be correct to do it this way but with conditions. And the main condition is : You never will interfere, annoy or disturb the pilgrimage of PILGRIMS. The Camino is hard enougth itself whithout anybodys "help", thank you!
If any pilgrim CAN´T do it the correct way ( said it, with physical effort) because their age, their injuries, or ealth conditions, is perfect to take a taxi, a bus, to submit their backpacks etc.
But if what you want is to THINK you ARE a pilgrim, walking ten kilometers to the next bus stop, where the travel agency´s staff have your credential sealed, your stuff packed, your meal served, only to take you twenty more kilometers on the way to the next town, where they will take care again of sealing your credential, etcetera, for four more days, you are a damm FAKE. It is like to say "I´m a war veteran" but never going to figth. I never sealed credentials this way when serving like a Hospitalero, and I will never do it. (Please comrades hospitaleros if you are reading this considerate , don`t do it neither, and deny the sello the way the tourist know why you are denying it, politely but firmly)
You knowing fake pilgrims, you tourist-grinos : Do not expect for my understanding, my help, my respect.
Maybe it is not their fault, but the travel agency, but I think we need to say it with high voices in order nobody can do it naively. Those travel agencies always can rent hotels outside the Camino. They can take those comfortable buses full of touri-grinos where they dont disturb, dont interfere, do not annoy. Please, RESPECT the Camino, RESPECT the pilgrimage.
Buen Camino to you, all honest people.
Surely that was 12,500 pilgrims going south or south-west and 12,500 pilgrims going north?
@Rebekah Scott:
I am wondering what you would do for hospitaleros if there were no repeat pilgrims. We do try to find ways to be useful.
I can well identify myself with father Laffi[...] Father Laffi disliked the pilgrim hospices and avoided them at all costs. He preferred taverns with rooms, inns or monastic houses. He also disliked pilgrim food and preferred to dine on better fare. He was a devout Catholic but, by today's standards might have been called a 'turogrino' for not wanting to stay in hospices and (horror of all horrors!) he didn't have a backpack!! He talks about his "bundle" which was often inspected at city gates or at monasteries.
I was kidding, Albertagirl.
And even then we have to a) adapt or b) adapt!t's the only way to make pilgrimage, unless you can either a) adapt or b) adapt.
I appreciate that there are differences in people and some generalities can be made, based on the observer's perspective. (Understatement alert)! However, I don't think people or pilgrims fit into those two categories so clearly. For example, I'm not sure if I am a pilgrim or a tourist. How would I know? Are we that simple?there is a completely different mindset between the two types of walkers.
, I think none of them complained that the Camino was losing its spirit .......were hampering their spiritual growth or spiritual enjoyment. I don't think they were concerned about this or even knew of such a concept as the Camino spirit. This is new. It's a modern concern.
The difficulty in trying to distinguish between tourists and pilgrims is that the only pilgrims who aren't tourists are the Spanish pilgrims. Everyone else is travelling away from their own country on a non-business related activity, and as such is a tourist. Some of us also consider ourselves pilgrims.this EXCLUDES the tourist on the Camino
So, what you're saying is that we can malign the people all we want, so long as we use the correct words . . .The difficulty in trying to distinguish between tourists and pilgrims is that the only pilgrims who aren't tourists are the Spanish pilgrims. Everyone else is travelling away from their own country on a non-business related activity, and as such is a tourist. Some of us also consider ourselves pilgrims.
I know that attempting to make a distinction gives some people a warm feeling about their pilgrimage being in some form more worthy than what are often parodied as the excesses of tourist behaviour, but that doesn't seem to me to be sufficient justification for misusing the word the the way we regularly do here.
That's an interesting conclusion you have arrived at all on your own. Please don't suggest they are my wordsSo, what you're saying is that we can malign the people all we want, so long as we use the correct words . . .
Tourism as we know it today seems to have it's origins in the mid-19th century, although the Grand Tour as an active leisure activity for the well-heeled was well established before that.Makes me wonder…..centuries ago, what was the word used to describe a tourist? Many travelled from different countries to Santiago. Was there a distinction then between Spaniards and 'visitors'?
It's a perennial, even perpetual debate on the forum. You didn't ignite anything. You merely threw a cup of accelerant at a forest fire---spectacular in the localized perspective, but utterly unremarkable in the grand scheme. Leave the post and warm your hands by the fire.(I will delete the post but obviously have ignited an interesting debate). Buen Camino to ALL.
Doubt anyone would call people whose physical needs have to be catered for "tourists".Try telling my deeply religious, all-American-Catholic group of 13 peregrinos who walked with amaWalkers 8 months ago, staying in booked accommodation, sending their luggage ahead, that they were merely tourists.
Everybody judges everyone, not just on the Way. It's part of being humans. Not so bad.
Sorry, I don't have time now to read through all the posts but Annie's struck a chord.Hahahaha. Great post.
Well. I take groups and we book higher end hotels and apartments for the most part. We do book some private rooms above albergues. But as our taxi driver said when we asked him, "Peregrinos ARE the economy, and before them, there was none in many dying villages." So I refuse to feel guilty.
... What you say may be true but begs the question why people travel around the globe to Northern Spain. Could they not achieve this inside job closer to home or in fact anywhere? Apparently, the external conditions are important for the transformation process that many are seeking, and these external conditions seem to depend on the behaviour (and perhaps the number and the "quality") of those who share their space on the way to Santiago.
Luckily so far I have kept sufficiently in touch with reality to see some distinction between my personal preferences/choices and absolute truth. I can concede there is a remote chance that others might disagree with me without them necessarily being mad, bad or just plain wrong. Those I have met along the Caminos have generally been very tolerant of the choices made by others. I hope that this continues to be true.
Doubt anyone would call people whose physical needs have to be catered for "tourists".
NAaaaaaw Dougy! I really did mean Tourist, the four busses that pitched up at the Santiago Cathedral and paid their Euros to see the botafumeiro which I did not see on All saints day in all four masses that I attended at the end of my first Camino. Where do they stay? Still ,if it weren't for those tourists, I may have never experienced the camera and phone spectacle accompanied by theatrical applause.The difficulty in trying to distinguish between tourists and pilgrims is that the only pilgrims who aren't tourists are the Spanish pilgrims. Everyone else is travelling away from their own country on a non-business related activity, and as such is a tourist. Some of us also consider ourselves pilgrims.
I know that attempting to make a distinction gives some people a warm feeling about their pilgrimage being in some form more worthy than what are often parodied as the excesses of tourist behaviour, but that doesn't seem to me to be sufficient justification for misusing the word the way we regularly do here.
I'm always happy to use the plain English meanings of words, including 'tourist'. Inventing new meanings so that we can give ourselves a nice feeling about our status as pilgrims makes no sense to me at all.NAaaaaaw Dougy! I really did mean Tourist, the four busses that pitched up at the Santiago Cathedral and paid their Euros to see the botafumeiro which I did not see on All saints day in all four masses that I attended at the end of my first Camino. Where do they stay? Still ,if it weren't for those tourists, I may have never experienced the camera and phone spectacle accompanied by theatrical applause.
No, they weren't pilgrims, and not because they lacked backpacks. Rather, they were disciples, which I think is something altogether greater.On the road to Emmaus.
"What did he say?"
"He says we are not real pilgrims."
"Because we don't have backpacks?"
View attachment 26749
And you are making this observation from Australia ...
I can make the same observation from here in Europe...
Now UK tour operators like Exodus and Explore Worldwide have self-guided or group Camino tours on offer, and I think the same applies for France with Terre d'Aventure and Allibert, also very large players in the adventure travel and walking tours business.
I, too, I'm neither approving nor disapproving this development, just making this observation.
Yes, I think we are talking past each other. I'm not debating anything about the painting or its history. Nor am I debating the sketchy, albeit pious, theology that presents Christ as a pilgrim, though I'll accept "in the guise" as successfully threading the needle.Maybe we are talking at cross purposes here. The original is a print from 1571. Underneath it says: P.BRUEGEL INVENTOR" and "CHRISTE PEREGRINI DIGNARIS SUMERE FORMAM,/UT FIRMA SOLIDES PECTORA NOSTRA FIDE. LUC.24, which means more or less "Christ, you deign to assume the appearance of a pilgrim in order to confirm our hearts in steadfast faith. Gospel of Luke 24".
All three figures wear pilgrims' garb from Bruegel's time. Each carries a pilgrim's staff. It was a tradition to represent Jesus and the two disciples as pilgrims on the road to Emmaus. As @sillydoll said already, there are also paintings where only Jesus is depicted as a pilgrim (on the way to Emmaus). I need to look it up but Christian pilgrimage is older than the way to Saint James. It's not walking to a holy place; it's walking on earth as a Christian, following Jesus. (I really need to look it up; it dates back to a time before the Middle Ages).
View attachment 26797
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?