Hamilton-Arvisais
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- {2016}
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Be careful. Permethrin is carcinogenic - if you ingest it. You would need to drink about five kg of the Saywers spray product to even start to get to the level required to be a concern. Provided you avoid it coming into contact with moist areas of your body, it is safe to use, so don't use it on underwear or gear that is likely to come into contact with you eyes, nose, mouth etc.Hello all,
My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?
Thanks!
What are you going to use between yourself and the mattress?Great! Thanks all, I think we will take our chances sans liner and spray.
I've successfully used tea tree oil as a bedbug repellent. A couple of drops in your pack and onto your sleeping bag before you pack it each day works like a charm. Tea tree oil also doubles up as an antiseptic for grazes and blisters.Hello all,
My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?
Thanks!
Is it possible to buy permethrin in St Jean Pied de Port?Bedbugs love silk. It's so soft on their tiny feet. And it makes no noise so they can attack without waking you.
Permethrin is sprayed on the outside of your sleeping bag not on your skin. Yes, it is poison but so is sugar in the amounts most people eat it. And for cancer causing products look no further than your fragranced laundry detergents, perfumes, lotions, creams, and ingredients in the back of the fast food and packaged food you eat. And for heavens sakes, avoid bacon.
Learn to spot bedbug sign and if you choose, use permethrin as an extra precaution.
Those who say they have not been bitten have just won the lottery. Ask those who HAVE been bitten if there are bedbugs. For some it is no worse than a mosquito bite. On others I've seen welts the size of a quarter with itching that will drive you mad.
For me the biggest concern is taking them back home, an expense that can quickly run into the thousands of dollars.
Don't be paranoid but don't be ignorant. Learn to spot the little buggers and take precautions. They've already begun to hatch and bite and it's early in the season.
I'm on my phone and can't post a link but if you Google 'Annie's Simple Life Bedbugs' you will find my blog on how to spot them with plenty of photos.
Buen Camino.
The tourist office has it.Is it possible to buy permethrin in St Jean Pied de Port?
We'll be using a simple one-season sleeping bagWhat are you going to use between yourself and the mattress?
Our favourite clothing maufacturer has started putting 'Insectguard' (permethrin) in some of their garments. We will be looking carefully at their future products and will not be buying any that will have contact with sweaty skin which have permethrin bonded into the fabric . They might just have lost 2 customers......................
Several major clothing manufacturers have lines of clothing that contain permethrin. If their lawyers thought there was a liability, they would drop the line. Properly applied, permethrin is safe!!..............
Hello all,
My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?
Thanks!
Hello all,
My first Camino will be this May, along with two other friends of mine. We are walking the whole of the Frances and are worried about what we've heard about bedbugs. One of us is opting for a silk sleeping bag liner, though I'm concerned that this won't properly prevent bedbugs as they can still easily latch on to the outer sleeping bag as well as clothes (after all, they can still crawl through the hole for your head in the top of the liner). I have also researched permethrin, a spray that guards against bedbugs but it is a carcinogen and as such I'd really rather not use it. Can anyone prove me wrong with the silk liner? Do we really need to worry about bedbugs anyway?
Thanks!
And where do you come by such "knowledge," pray tell?secure in the knowledge that bedbugs prefer to bite those who put their faith in essential oils and magic incantations....
I think the best advice is to learn how to spot them and the signs - and then leave that albergue.
extended even though I inspect every place and have never seen signs of them. Most of the places are immaculate. My companions do not get bitten but they have no other explanation when they see the nasty welts that I get.
.
But killing the bedbug? Wow....the ONE that I saw was doomed from the moment I saw it. I used my Brierley Guide and just totally walloped the chiton right out of it. Interestingly, it did not die easily, and believe me, I was in total kill mode....
It is good to inspect. I always do it. But you most likely won't see signs unless there is a serious infestation. I just resent (a bitYes, my advice too. And I followed it on the VdlP last year and it worked.
Fingers crossed for this year
Cclearly is absolutely right. It's not Just The careless or stupid that get bitten by bed bugs.Yikes C clearly, you have just wrecked my latest theory about checking the place!!!
It is good to inspect. I always do it. But you most likely won't see signs unless there is a serious infestation. I just resent (a bit) the implication that I get bitten because I don't inspect properly.
It's not Just The careless or stupid that get bitten by bed bugs.
I'm not sure what newspaper would do? Are the bugs too interested in reading the news to bite???Mercifully no BB encounters on 4 wks of camino lodgings (albergue, pensao, hotel) - BUT .... if they are around, they leave horrid traces and I had to deal w/ many days/weeks of painful bites.
My successful low-tech solution was: sheets of newspaper between mattress and cotton sheet.
in my teens i travelled many months in ceylon where i first encountered those bb's (bloody buggers) - and i believe it was fellow traveller who clued me in w/ that newspaper trick. after that the problem ended.
They also hid in those rattan/wicker seat/furniture. So i always had a newspaper between bum/seat.
they are light-shy apparently, but will emerge from their hiding places and scurry in all directions when you remove/lift the mattress and perhaps shine a torch into the dark corners of bed frame.
if in doubt or finding any traces - i'd consider moving on to bb free lodgings.
buen camino!
This made me laugh out loud. I can see you transforming, complete with Shogun outfit and a long sword!But killing the bedbug? Wow....the ONE that I saw was doomed from the moment I saw it. I used my Brierley Guide and just totally walloped the chiton right out of it. Interestingly, it did not die easily, and believe me, I was in total kill mode....
Of course not. If someone has just brought the bugs in, there won't be much to inspect FOR. And they are often found in clean places because that is where infected pilgrims often run. A friend of mine manages a very upscale hotel chain and he says they are a regular problem.It is good to inspect. I always do it. But you most likely won't see signs unless there is a serious infestation. I just resent (a bit) the implication that I get bitten because I don't inspect properly.
Kanga, Studying insects, and I suppose how to kill them, is indeed important work (unless you are the bug). I contend that non-toxic formulas are -- and shall remain -- an option for those people wishing to avoid carcinogens, such as Hamilton-Arvisais.and facts.
Kanga, Studying insects, and I suppose how to kill them, is indeed important work (unless you are the bug). I contend that non-toxic formulas are -- and shall remain -- an option for those people wishing to avoid carcinogens, such as Hamilton-Arvisais.
Additionally, I do take it personally when terms like "snake oil" and "magic incantations" are used to refute my perspective. Perhaps I should develop thicker skin, by applying carcinogens;-)
Then again, I've never been biten by a bed bug, a fact, never soaked my clothes in or sprayed my pack with carcinogens. Maybe my skin is already thick enough, at least for attacks of the bed bug variety.
Perhaps the best thing I have read in this thread is what C clearly said about some people not being allergic or attractive to bed bugs. Seems there may be some fact there too. I wonder why that is. Maybe I eat more garlic than others, or some other intake, or maybe it's just DNA. Who knows for sure? My wife has gone backpacking with me and been covered by ticks, when I had none. Begs the question, do I eat more garlic than her? does the fact that I drink red wine and she white wine make all the difference. God only knows.
The fact remains that there are options out there on the market (many of them), no matter where you studied. Use whatever your own sensibilities can handle.
Respectfully,
The poor thing. I know this does happen, and that is why this is such a passionate topic. Thank you for sharing, Deb, both your story and the antihistamines;-)I will mention that I noticed that she ate a lot of sugar; don't know if that is relevant.
I don't eat a lot of sugar, and can't support that theory. Poor sugar gets blamed for a lot but bedbug bites is stretching things!I will mention that I noticed that she ate a lot of sugar; don't know if that is relevant.
Word of defence here for @CaminoDebrita. She was not blaming the bedbug bites on the quantity of sugar consumed; she just mentioned it in passing, and she did say she didn't know if it was relevant.......... Poor sugar gets blamed for a lot but bedbug bites is stretching things!
But not a carcinogen. In large enough doses, virtually everything is a likely carcinogen!!classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen
Many folks use the following:But let ask, keeping my conversation with The exterminator yesterday, do you use the spray van or The spray bottle permetryne?
I don't eat a lot of sugar,
But not a carcinogen. In large enough doses, virtually everything is a likely carcinogen!!
You have to love the ambiguity of a sentence like that.but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen
So... treat your stuff (I am moving to DEET)
If you ask in a pharmacy in Spain for insect repellant, they will sell you a pump spray (not aerosol) bottle of a product containing Deet.Hi @C clearly,
Is DEET easily available on the Camino Frances? I can easily bring a can from Canada, but it would be nice to know that I can easily buy it on the CF if I run out.
If you ask in a pharmacy in Spain for insect repellant, they will sell you a pump spray (not aerosol) bottle of a product containing Deet.
What I bought is double the concentration of Sawyer's. Maybe I'll dilute it first or not spray as much. Maybe the exterminator was on to something. He said spray cans ar usually 0.25%, what I have is 1%,
That will work fine.Thanks, @C clearly - "repelente de insectos" (Google translate) - is that a decent translation for insect repellant?
@falcon269 The EPA (and other sources) state -
"Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity or immunotoxicity in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors."
@Anniesantiago In regards to the Cdn Government link about Insect Bit Prevention, although they note the use of permethrin, it also states that it is no longer available in Canada. If still on store stocks, it will not be replaced.
I personally would not use it, but it’s an individual decision.
Understand the situation, the actual threat in respect to you, and use what precautions you are comfortable with.
Diligence is your best advocate!
This is the type of procuct that is not long lasting. It only works when sprayed until it dries. At least that's what the exterminator said. I also don't know about the other ingredients in those cans. Do you?@DavidsRetired:
I have checked the Canadian government website above, and it does indeed say that permethrin is not available in Canada. This is not accurate. On Saturday (3 days ago) I checked out the pest control products at my local Home Depot to see what is in stock which does contain permethrin. Several types of spray cans containing permethrin were on the shelf in the new stock which has just come in for the summer season. The permethrin is in concentrations of .20% and .25%. I intend to purchase a can of the latter to spray my backpack and sleeping bag, which seems to have worked for me on camino last fall.
This is the type of procuct that is not long lasting. It only works when sprayed until it dries. At least that's what the exterminator said. I also don't know about the other ingredients in those cans. Do you?
I also used one of those sprays and did not het bitten, but then again I only did one 1 of 5 Caminos, so I don't know if I was lucky or if the product worked....@Anemone del Camino:
I assume that a can labelled "permethrin" contains permethrin. As for other ingredients, one can contains a preservative, which I will certainly check online before using that product. I used permethrin .25% on my backpack and sleeping bag for a six week camino last fall and took whatever other precautions I could. They seem to have worked, as I did not encounter any bedbugs. Of course, it may have been a happy coincidence.
Word of defence here for @CaminoDebrita. She was not blaming the bedbug bites on the quantity of sugar consumed; she just mentioned it in passing, and she did say she didn't know if it was relevant.
That wasn't lost on me; @C clearly is a forum stalwart. But things can go sideways so quickly on this forum that I thought I'd be proactive....I have to say though, I can't get too worked up about @C clearly seeing as she was my "go to" when I was in the PROCESS of seeing, identifying, killing the bedbug just a few weeks back...
Oh, yes! One moment, flavor of the month. The next moment – – food for bedbugs!That wasn't lost on me; @C clearly is a forum stalwart. But things can go sideways so quickly on this forum that I thought I'd be proactive.
So true! When I wrote my comment, I was thinking about how anecdotal evidence (sample of one, even) can morph into "fact".That wasn't lost on me; @C clearly is a forum stalwart. But things can go sideways so quickly on this forum that I thought I'd be proactive.
My husband drinks like a fish and eats a ton of garlic. I don't drink and love a little something sweet. He gets bitten by all manner of little creatures and they tend to leave me alone (when we're together) I'd consider taking him along on the Camino with me solely that the bugs will munch on him and not me!So true! When I wrote my comment, I was thinking about how anecdotal evidence (sample of one, even) can morph into "fact".
I think those bedbugs know better than to mess with @CaminoDebrita!
@DavidsRetired:Again, as I mentioned prior, using such products is a personal choice and a risk management, pros vs cons decision. The risk of Bed Bugs transferring diseases to humans, although possible, has not happened; although there is the risk of itching and secondary infections to some. Therefore, they present an extremely low threat risk – just a terrible inconvenience.
@Albertagirl, I understand completely the necessity of mitigating one’s risk, while on the Camino. Bringing the critters home, is however, an entirely different matter; there is simply no guarantee, as you are in close proximity with a multitude of international travelers. This scenario is perhaps when you are at your greatest risk, and is unfortunately unavoidable.
My recommendation would be to have a game plan in place for your return, as many pilgrims do. I tend to wrap all my kit in a plastic garbage bag and leave it in the garage for a while, and/or place in the freezer, room permitting. Or I simply toss directly into the wash on high heat, then into a high setting on the dryer. My point is don’t rely on a 30 + day spraying of your kit to protect you.
Just as you correctly stated the toxic amount of Sawyer spray, I would go one step further and suggest that your concern regarding absorption thru the skin is not as concerning as you suggest. On my first Camino I sprayed everything using Sawyer spray, and using my own dip - both are 0.5%. I use permethrin mainly for protection against ticks and the diesease they carry. I prefer hiking in the mountain's so mosquitos are not a real concern as they dont like being above 2000 ft. If I am hiking and building up a sweat, my treated clothes are mosit/wet and in contact with my skin. But, I dont have a concern because of the concentration 0.5% and the fact that permethrin is poorly absorbed by the skin. Indeed, one research article stated that the reason you can not use permethrin directly on skin, is because it is inactivated by a enzyme (dont remember exact details now) on the skin.Be careful. Permethrin is carcinogenic - if you ingest it. You would need to drink about five kg of the Saywers spray product to even start to get to the level required to be a concern. Provided you avoid it coming into contact with moist areas of your body, it is safe to use, so don't use it on underwear or gear that is likely to come into contact with you eyes, nose, mouth etc.
If you don't want to use a synthetic chemical such as permethrin, there are other preparations available using compounds such as pyrethrim and essential oils. These are generally not as effective or long lasting as permethrin.
As for silk - I don't think there is any evidence that silk has any repellent properties, and it is certainly not an insecticide.
Well, I never claimed I was an expert, or a scientist. But as a user of permethrin, I have researched it and read the available scientific studies. I found my info on the internet, EPA, Manufacturers of permethrin products, Pharmaceutical manufactures etc. I can not give links as I appeared not to have bookmarked. I did try to search for link for comments I made in prior post, but was unable to locate. I believe it may have been a study cited by EPA - but EPA not the easiest to navigate. I do recall that the study citing permethrin as a LIKELY carcinogen was based on lab mice being FED permethrin - hence my remark "dont eat your clothes" The concentration of permethrin WAS NOT 0.5% (the usual concentration of factory treated clothing, and Sawyer's permethrin spray) I dont recall but believe it was >20% concentration. No wonder the mice developed liver and kidney tumors! Concentrations such as these, are not used in permethrin treated clothing, or prescription creams. Indeed, I don't believe that are any actual scientific research studies done on humans or lab animals for permethrin 0.5%@MaidinBham Your information is rather questionable, which presents a pet peeve with me. Others will read your information and accept it unquestionably, then pass it along as factual. Welcome to the world of internet experts.
I would be very much interested on where you obtained your data and the validity of these sources.
When we conduct experiments on mice, there is a great deal of thought on the administration of such substances, right down to the selection of vehicle or solvent for delivery. The specific considerations are numerous and include factors such as weight ratios, absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion of therapeutic or chemical agents. We do not just administer excessive amounts and see what happens.
Also, associating a variety of permethrin based products in a lump application process is foolhardy. Individual products are designed for specific uses, and should not be compared as the chemical makeup is different.
Being glib in your remarks (“…if you inhale large amount's, drink liters of 50% permethrin, or eat your clothes…”) is irresponsible. Additionally, if a product has a warning label on it, do not suggest to others that it’s safe to disregard that warning (which in essence is what you’ve done), based of your usage of the product.
As an aside, recent studies of pyrethroids, have raised a cautionary red flag within the scientific community (which I am part of), which have deemed it not as safe as once considered. It has been demonstrated that it is more acutely toxic to children than to adults, but toxic nonetheless. Specifically, in regards to children, evidence is accumulating that pyrethroid exposure has shown markedly decreased neurodevelopment. These compounds are currently being reevaluated as more information is becoming available, and are being disused (in some applications) in a number of countries.
I’m not trying to persuade people one way or the other. However, I simply detest when misinformation is perpetually put forth as factual, usually with little real basis other than personal use or “internet claims”, Ugh
I suggest the forum would be better served if we all stuck to what we know about the Camino.
Can you provide a source for that? It would be useful to read the science. Thanks.As an aside, recent studies of pyrethroids, have raised a cautionary red flag within the scientific community (which I am part of), which have deemed it not as safe as once considered.
@falcon269 The EPA (and other sources) state -
"Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity or immunotoxicity in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors."
@Anniesantiago In regards to the Cdn Government link about Insect Bit Prevention, although they note the use of permethrin, it also states that it is no longer available in Canada. If still on store stocks, it will not be replaced.
I personally would not use it, but it’s an individual decision.
Understand the situation, the actual threat in respect to you, and use what precautions you are comfortable with.
Diligence is your best advocate!
@DavidsRetired:
I have checked the Canadian government website above, and it does indeed say that permethrin is not available in Canada. This is not accurate. On Saturday (3 days ago) I checked out the pest control products at my local Home Depot to see what is in stock which does contain permethrin. Several types of spray cans containing permethrin were on the shelf in the new stock which has just come in for the summer season. The permethrin is in concentrations of .20% and .25%. I intend to purchase a can of the latter to spray my backpack and sleeping bag, which seems to have worked for me on camino last fall.
@falcon269 I’m currently a lead Biologist (researcher), whose primary function is in Genome Editing. Insecticides is not my focus, but am privy to current preliminary studies in some areas. Because of my position, I am unable to provide any links to current research; I would loose my job in a New York minute! In fact, I regret even making a comment in this regard within this thread.
Regardless, what I can say is the following; as you are probably aware, permethrin-impregnated bed nets for the prevention of malaria have been used for some time now in African nations, in the hope of reducing child mortality rates. The pre-treated nets use a dose of 0.5 g of permethrin/m2 per/of netting. Overall, this has been highly successful. Several early studies were done as a basis, with follow-up studies between 5 to 10-years. These studies showed acceptable tolerances for the continuance of the programs. In the mid 2000s some concerns were noted, but nothing outstanding. By 2010, 2012 the bulk of the initial group of children being studied, demonstrated a marked increase in developmental problems. It was determined on testing that bed nets showed persistence of permethrin residues, which were being handled by both child and adults. Soil and environmental factors were also tested.
Understanding the 1970s bulk studies on the nervous system of mice, demonstrated that permethrin affects the brain in the way that it was designed to behave. That is, it causes repetitive firing of the electronic signals in particular regions of the brain. These effects were found in laboratory animals used for predicting what might happen in humans. This was now being shown in the more recent studies in Africa.
As with the behavioral studies of rats and mice, which showed reductions in learned behavior, as well as impairments in balance, strength, and speed. With one study that found changes in motor activity and social behavior in the offspring of mice who were given permethrin prior to mating. This is important to understand, as permethrin was once considered safe for pregnant women and breastfeeding. However, this is now being contested, as new long-term findings demonstrate otherwise.
Furthermore, new preliminary studies have found a direct impact on the immune system, showing significant effects. Results indicated that permethrin led to the death and/or reduced production of blood cells necessary to fight bacteria and viruses and remove waste products from the blood. Varied physiological changes, including DNA damage, were reported in other systems.
One of the primary concerns, is recent research has demonstrated that permethrin exhibits the characteristics of an endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the communication system of glands, hormones, and cellular receptors that control the body’s internal functions. A relatively unique feature of endocrine disruptors is that they exert their effects at extremely low doses. Disorders that have increased in prevalence in recent years such as unusual male gonadal development, infertility, ADHD, autism, intellectual impairment, diabetes, thyroid disorders, and childhood and/or adult cancers are now being linked to prenatal exposure to endocrine disruptors.
Recent studies are also finding similar data in the US, Canada and throughout the EU. These studies are focused on children, as they are more susceptible. Urine samples have shown notable increases of pyrethroid insecticides, cis- and trans-permethrin. The primary route of the children's exposure to the combined isomers was through dietary ingestion, followed by indirect ingestion (air sampling from household sprays confirmed this, as well as dust samples within homes, as examples).
I will also add, that several studies have been shown the effects of combinations of chemicals used among U.S. military personnel during the Persian Gulf War (Gulf War Syndrome), which included permethrin-impregnated within soldier’s uniforms.
I don’t have a great deal of time to put forth to this discussion, but hope this provided some insight.
@SunnyLife , some of the side effects you describe may explain the odd behaviour of a number of pilgrims on route, Forum members excluded of course!
Seriously, I thank you for such a well informed post. I for one noticed this part: "The pre-treated nets use a dose of 0.5 g of permethrin/m2 per/of netting.". How many of us spraying know exactly how much we are spraying over a particular surface? If I am spraying 1% concentration over my sleeping bag, am I spraying 1gram, 0.1 gram? I don't know...
If he is talking about yet unpublished research, and research others are conducting, not him. I can see why leaking this info would displease many.@SunnyLife I do not understand why you are not prepared to cite the research. Or how doing so could possibly endanger your employment.
I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years. I prefer the Municipal, Parrochial and low cost Private Albergues and have never come across any bed bugs. Maybe they are a Camino myth.
Tea tree oil was recommended to us at a Farmacia just past Burgos after my wife had an allergic reaction to bed bug bites. It should be diluted and feels great on your skin. You can also use it to treat the fungal infections that you may pick up in the shower.I've successfully used tea tree oil as a bedbug repellent. A couple of drops in your pack and onto your sleeping bag before you pack it each day works like a charm. Tea tree oil also doubles up as an antiseptic for grazes and blisters.
So what is irresponsible? The point I was making was based on facts. I have spent more than 80 nights in May/June in around 70 different Albergues in the last 2 years and never came across any bed bugs. I always checked for signs of them when I arrived and never found anything. I never had a single bite. I regularly checked my kit and never found any infestation. When I got home I turned out all my kit in the garden and checked it again and never found any bugs. On both Caminos I talked with many pilgrims I met, and none of them mentioned being affected by bugs.Devon Mike's post (below) is irresponsible. There are bedbugs on the Camino. And every peregrino has a responsibility to apprise him/herself of the problem and how to deal with it. Unfortunately, this forum is not a reliable source of information. Do yourself, and your fellow travelers, a favor - do an on-line search on how to avoid transporting them to other lodgings, then develop a strategy to avoid carrying them with you.
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