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HiSo, I understand the botafumeiro is only officially used during official celebrations, but I also gather that it's also used way more than this because of benefactors 'buying' the service. I was wondering which daily pilgrims mass I should attend in order to get the most chances to see it in action, if there's such a thing
Gracia peregrinos!
We asked when we arrived on sept 21st and it is strictly used for paying groups only. So….highly unlikely. Disappointing considering a holy year.So, I understand the botafumeiro is only officially used during official celebrations, but I also gather that it's also used way more than this because of benefactors 'buying' the service. I was wondering which daily pilgrims mass I should attend in order to get the most chances to see it in action, if there's such a thing
Gracia peregrinos!
Because of COVID related capacity restrictions, you can improve your chances of getting in to a Mass if you ask for a ticket to a Mass at the Pilgrim Office WHEN YOU ARE AT THE COUNTER GETTING YOUR COMPOSTELA - not before or after.I would say that the 12pm noon mass is still the best chance, over the morning mass and the evening mass. BUT you're correct, it's random how often the botafumeiro swings unless you're there on a special day in the Catholic liturgical calendar or someone has sponsored a special actuation.
Tom, you are the man for all things Camino regarding the Pilgrim Office and the Cathedral. Thanks for sharing!Because of COVID related capacity restrictions, you can improve your chances of getting in to a Mass if you ask for a ticket to a Mass at the Pilgrim Office WHEN YOU ARE AT THE COUNTER GETTING YOUR COMPOSTELA - not before or after.
The staff are provided with a limited supply of colored passes to give to arriving pilgrims. The colors vary for each of the four Masses and are changed daily. IIRC they only have about 30 per Mass, each day.
You have no control over which Mass they have tickets left for. But, if you are an early-bird and one of the first to get served at the Pilgrim Office on any given day, you stand a chance of scoring a free pass to the next Mass - usually the noon Mass. Unless they changed frequency or times, they increased the number of Pilgrim Masses to four daily: 0730, 1200, 1630, 1930.
This pass enables you to walk to the head of the queue at the South Apse entry door off Plaza Praterias. You get to jump the line legitimately. As capacity was reduced from over 800 people per Mass to about 225 per Mass, it DOES make a difference.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Bob - We on the forum have no control or influence on the cathedral officials who manage the botafumeiro. You have raised a lot of questions that really illustrate the many complexities of the matter, that involve many emotions as well as religious protocols, business considerations, and regulatory issues, just for starters. We would need to learn about all of them. This discussion on the forum could lead to argument rather than resolution.I sure hope I don't get into trouble with this post. I'm submitting it mostly on a whim, without a lot of self reflection. It's perfectly okay to shoot it down. I only ask people to be civil... I have no doubt I will learn something
The swinging of the botafumeiro will cost about 450€. Arrangements can be made by writing to botafumeiro@catedraldesantiago.esSo if I want to pay to have it on my birthday where do I go and then do I have to stand in line to see it? I feel I only live once and I want it fir that day. No sarcastic remarks needed.
Yes, but does the person/s paying get a special ticket for a reserved front row seat? I could barely see the action when I had to stand near the back for the whole service in Spanish...but then I didn't pay.The swinging of the botafumeiro will cost about 450€. Arrangements can be made by writing to botafumeiro@catedraldesantiago.es
http://catedraldesantiago.es/en/liturgy/
Masses, Confessions, Botafumeiro | Catedral de Santiago
Liturgy information in St James Cathedral: Archbishop, Chapter, Masses, Confessions, the Botafumeiro.catedraldesantiago.es
Thank you. I try to please.Tom, you are the man for all things Camino regarding the Pilgrim Office and the Cathedral. Thanks for sharing!
I sure hope I don't get into trouble with this post. I'm submitting it mostly on a whim, without a lot of self reflection. It's perfectly okay to shoot it down. I only ask people to be civil. Here goes:
Could the cathedral offer a mass every day with the botafumeiro? I understand that it's use is not free of cost. After all, a number of people are required to control it, the botafumeiro requires upkeep, and it's use may increase the cost of insurance since accidents can happen. How many people would be hurt if the cable or connections break, allowing the botafumeiro to fly into the seating area? Despite this risk, I suspect the vast majority of pilgrims and tourists would love to see it in action. Now for my controversial comments. Why not charge attendance at this special daily mass? The cost of using the botafumeiro would be covered if everyone paid an amount similar to the cost of a night's stay at an albergue. Perhaps even charge an extra Euro or two. Religion isn't free. Buildings require upkeep. People working for the church need to be paid. Even unpaid religious positions incur a cost. All expenses of the church must be met. If anyone objects to paying for the special mass, they can attend any of the other masses. Before people on the forum annihilate me, let me add that I am catholic. When I attend mass, I feel obligated to make a donation. I see nothing wrong with this expectation. Religious organizations, including the catholic church, need money for the many ways in which they help people. My fear is that requiring paid attendance would cheapen the mass and what it represents. Would paid attendance make the mass more of a tourist attraction? Since the botafumeiro is available for a fee to organizations, is it too different for everyone attending the mass to be a "paying member of an impromptu organization"? I look forward to reading comments from the priests, nuns, and other religious people who follow this forum. I am way out of my league here and welcome a discussion. I have no doubt I will learn something, and others too may learn something.
Thank you,
I don’t disagree with you entirely, but anyone can see the Botafumeiro ceremony at any time, streamed to their big screen TV, anywhere in the world, on You Tube.I sure hope I don't get into trouble with this post. I'm submitting it mostly on a whim, without a lot of self reflection. It's perfectly okay to shoot it down. I only ask people to be civil. Here goes:
Could the cathedral offer a mass every day with the botafumeiro? I understand that it's use is not free of cost. After all, a number of people are required to control it, the botafumeiro requires upkeep, and it's use may increase the cost of insurance since accidents can happen. How many people would be hurt if the cable or connections break, allowing the botafumeiro to fly into the seating area? Despite this risk, I suspect the vast majority of pilgrims and tourists would love to see it in action. Now for my controversial comments. Why not charge attendance at this special daily mass? The cost of using the botafumeiro would be covered if everyone paid an amount similar to the cost of a night's stay at an albergue. Perhaps even charge an extra Euro or two. Religion isn't free. Buildings require upkeep. People working for the church need to be paid. Even unpaid religious positions incur a cost. All expenses of the church must be met. If anyone objects to paying for the special mass, they can attend any of the other masses. Before people on the forum annihilate me, let me add that I am catholic. When I attend mass, I feel obligated to make a donation. I see nothing wrong with this expectation. Religious organizations, including the catholic church, need money for the many ways in which they help people. My fear is that requiring paid attendance would cheapen the mass and what it represents. Would paid attendance make the mass more of a tourist attraction? Since the botafumeiro is available for a fee to organizations, is it too different for everyone attending the mass to be a "paying member of an impromptu organization"? I look forward to reading comments from the priests, nuns, and other religious people who follow this forum. I am way out of my league here and welcome a discussion. I have no doubt I will learn something, and others too may learn something.
Thank you,
Bob
You contact the Pilgrim Office by email to arrange and pay. I am reasonably certain that if you paid for the Botafumeiro to be used, you can get a pass to ensure you and your group, get in to that Mass.So if I want to pay to have it on my birthday where do I go and then do I have to stand in line to see it? I feel I only live once and I want it fir that day. No sarcastic remarks needed.
It IS a good question, but I do not have an answer. My suspicion is that the Cathedral authorities would “push back” against what they would see as commercializing a solemn ceremony.Yes, but does the person/s paying get a special ticket for a reserved front row seat? I could barely see the action when I had to stand near the back for the whole service in Spanish...but then I didn't pay.
I pay for the rooftop tour every time I'm in Santiago and think nothing of the cost to do that. I don't see much difference as long as most of the normal scheduled church services continue to take place.
Personally I don't really care either way, but I still think it is a good question.
Ironically Tink, one July, when I was sitting inside the altar rail with a group of other volunteers, I happened to have the end seat on the bench, immediately next to the portion of the altar rail that is opened to accommodate the swing arc of the Botafumeiro.Ah, the tyranny of spectacle. Would you get a discount if you're stuck right down the end of the Nave; pay extra to have it wooshing right past your nose? Would there be a ballot for tickets? Would the Pilgrim Offices queuing machine offer "Double Whammy" tickets?
I'm indifferent to the spectacle, indeed, to the ritual but I guess that anyone willing to pay has a reasonable entitlement to watch Whales off Nantucket; the Northern Lights from their cruise-ship deck, or, indeed, that great Thurible swing. But the idea that anyone should pay (aside the collection plate) to attend a service of worship.... They'll be selling short-cuts to Heaven next
Is that all? 450euro? I wouldnt think it was hard to find 10 pilgrims in the square to pay 45E each to witness it or indeed 20 pilgrims at 22.50.... Do they need much notice? ie if I can find another 19 pilgrims by 11:30 can we have it at the midday mass?The swinging of the botafumeiro will cost about 450€. Arrangements can be made by writing to botafumeiro@catedraldesantiago.es
Tom,I don’t disagree with you entirely, but anyone can see the Botafumeiro ceremony at any time, streamed to their big screen TV, anywhere in the world, on You Tube.
There are hundreds of videos recorded by pilgrims or tourists. Some of them are quite good.
Whenever I am having a bad, depressing day, I sometimes view this ceremony to bring back the good memories.
The current scheme, where a private group pays to have the Botafumeiro used at a specific Mass seems to work. During the season - from Holy Week through September - there seems to be some group funding the use of this historical device in the very popular ceremony almost every day.
A staff person at the Pilgrim Office administers this program. However, this person NEVER tells in advance.
Even when I am working there, it is tough to find out. The only clue one gets is when a couple of the paid staff leave the office to go to the Cathedral, as they have the honor to be some of the Tirabuleiros (sp?) who manage the ropes during the ceremony. Other than that, there is no advance clue.
It might be interesting to point out that, in the Catholic liturgy, an incenser (that is the generic description of the Botafumeiro - albeit huge) is traditionally used at the very beginning of the Mass, and perhaps after the Gospel reading, after the Offertory, at the start of the Consecration portion of the Mass. This is the most solemn and important portion of a Catholic Mass.
However, some decades ago, the clergy realized that they completely lost control of the attendees once the Botafumeiro was used.
As a result, the Archbishop at the time moved the Botafumeiro ceremony to the very end of the Mass, AFTER the closing blessing was bestowed on all attendees. This way, this historic spectacle and the general disorder and hubbub it engendered did not disrupt the orderly process of the Holy Mass. No amount of “shushing” would control the noise.
So, THAT is why the Botafumeiro ceremony is literally after the Mass is over.
Hope this helps.
Tom
They could burn anything in there and the attendees would not know the difference. But the mixture includes Frankincense and is traditional. The Catholic Church is built on tradition.Holy Smoke
@t2andreo and to think this is basically down to the tears of trees !!
Disappearing frankincense forests – DW – 12/28/2016
Even before the Wise Men gave frankincense as a gift, people were climbing the rugged Somaliland mountains in search of the precious resin. But rising global demand is threatening the ancestral forests where it is found.www.dw.com
Yes, it could be done - BUT - the arrangements need to be made well in advance, so the persons required to make it happen can be sorted in advance.Is that all? 450euro? I wouldnt think it was hard to find 10 pilgrims in the square to pay 45E each to witness it or indeed 20 pilgrims at 22.50.... Do they need much notice? ie if I can find another 19 pilgrims by 11:30 can we have it at the midday mass?
I agree with your comment about watching it swing on YouTube. My first Camino the big one swung and I had a small digital camera and made a video instead of watching it swing. My second and 4th Camino they had the big one and I just watched. It was so much more fun and breathtaking to watch it without looking into a little video screen. No need to video it. Watch it and enjoy. If you want to tell and show your friends go right to YouTube. I barely remember the first time but the second two times I remember vividly.I don’t disagree with you entirely, but anyone can see the Botafumeiro ceremony at any time, streamed to their big screen TV, anywhere in the world, on You Tube.
There are hundreds of videos recorded by pilgrims or tourists. Some of them are quite good.
Whenever I am having a bad, depressing day, I sometimes view this ceremony to bring back the good memories.
The current scheme, where a private group pays to have the Botafumeiro used at a specific Mass seems to work. During the season - from Holy Week through September - there seems to be some group funding the use of this historical device in the very popular ceremony almost every day.
A staff person at the Pilgrim Office administers this program. However, this person NEVER tells in advance.
Even when I am working there, it is tough to find out. The only clue one gets is when a couple of the paid staff leave the office to go to the Cathedral, as they have the honor to be some of the Tirabuleiros (sp?) who manage the ropes during the ceremony. Other than that, there is no advance clue.
It might be interesting to point out that, in the Catholic liturgy, an incenser (that is the generic description of the Botafumeiro - albeit huge) is traditionally used at the very beginning of the Mass, and perhaps after the Gospel reading, after the Offertory, at the start of the Consecration portion of the Mass. This is the most solemn and important portion of a Catholic Mass.
However, some decades ago, the clergy realized that they completely lost control of the attendees once the Botafumeiro was used.
As a result, the Archbishop at the time moved the Botafumeiro ceremony to the very end of the Mass, AFTER the closing blessing was bestowed on all attendees. This way, this historic spectacle and the general disorder and hubbub it engendered did not disrupt the orderly process of the Holy Mass. No amount of “shushing” would control the noise.
So, THAT is why the Botafumeiro ceremony is literally after the Mass is over.
Hope this helps.
Tom
It56ny,I agree with your comment about watching it swing on YouTube. My first Camino the big one swung and I had a small digital camera and made a video instead of watching it swing. My second and 4th Camino they had the big one and I just watched. It was so much more fun and breathtaking to watch it without looking into a little video screen. No need to video it. Watch it and enjoy. If you want to tell and show your friends go right to YouTube. I barely remember the first time but the second two times I remember vividly.
I could still "smell" the botafumeiro in Santiago as I was raised Catholic as a child and the incense swinging again at the cathedral made my many memories come flooding back as it was a weekly occurance for me growing up. I always looked forward to the priest going up and down the aisles releasing the smell as I really liked the odor of the frankincense.I can still "see" the sevices in my mind with pleasure and gratitude.
When we walked the Camino Primitivo in 2016 and stopped at a B & B just before Melide we encountered a group from Argentina. Even though they had a support van we arrived on the same morning. We actually walked faster and further for the last few days because they told us that they had paid for the botafumiero on a particular day. While we did see it from a side nave, they all had front row seats.Yes, but does the person/s paying get a special ticket for a reserved front row seat? I could barely see the action when I had to stand near the back for the whole service in Spanish...but then I didn't pay.
I pay for the rooftop tour every time I'm in Santiago and think nothing of the cost to do that. I don't see much difference as long as most of the normal scheduled church services continue to take place.
Personally I don't really care either way, but I still think it is a good question.
Ah, you have confirmed my thought--that it all is planned in advance.Yes, it could be done - BUT - the arrangements need to be made well in advance, so the persons required to make it happen can be sorted in advance.
Hope this helps,
Tom
While we did see the bota swing as described in my previous post and found it amazing, we actually saw it for the first time the previous year on our first Camino from Sarria. We had no clue, as Catholics we were just attending the pilgrim mass. To see the botafumeiro fly with no prior knowledge or warning was just the most profound experience. I do hope that you are able to see it in person, while all the videos are terrific, having it fly over my head to the ceiling left me in awe. (Although I do have to say that I was thinking about where to exit if the supports were to come crashing down, and actually ducked as it swung above us- this was before the repairs!)Thank you to everyone for your comments. I closely followed the responses to my earlier posting and reflected on the issues. The responses by Tincatinker, t2andreo, and mspath had the greatest effect on me. I now realize that my original posting expressed thoughts coming from a tourist, not from a pilgrim. When I finally walk my camino (November? May?), I will happily attend mass without any expectation of seeing the botafumeiro in action. However, that being said, it must be awesome to see the ceremony in person. It may be spectacle, but it is a spectacle that has been going on for many hundreds of years. I watched several videos and found it all amazing. It's humbling to realize the botafumeiro ceremony is older than many countries. As much as I would like to see the ceremony, I understand how it can disrupt the sacredness of the mass. Placing the botafumeiro ceremony after the mass was a great idea. I even think that an occasional theatrical religious spectacle in all churches could be a good thing, as long as the ceremonies are thoughtful and closely linked to the mass, the church, the religious personages, and the devotees in attendance. Perhaps over the years and decades some of our bishops might get creative. (I have one idea, but this is not the place for it.) I hope the botafumeiro ceremony continues far into the future, either as a part of the mass or as its own separate ceremony. It would be sad to see this epic tradition come to a close. After all, is it necessarily bad to draw tourists into the cathedral? Might some of them have a religious experience? Might it renew the faith of someone?
One of the greatest strengths of Ivar's forum are the thoughtful and insightful comments by the experienced members in this and all threads. It's a pleasure to be a member.
Bob
I have noticed that if the censor is hanging quite low down during the morning, then the botafumeiro will swing at midday. If it is high up then it won’t.Other than that, there is no advance clue.
Others have commented about the cost and how to arrange. I understand that one has to arrange a few days in advance.So if I want to pay to have it on my birthday where do I go and then do I have to stand in line to see it? I feel I only live once and I want it fir that day. No sarcastic remarks needed.
As they should be...good to hear.Others have commented about the cost and how to arrange. I understand that one has to arrange a few days in advance.
In terms of standing in line to see it: when I did the CP in 2018, I made sure to be quite early and got a good seat in the transept. But the even better seats in front were roped off as reserved just in front of where I was sitting. We were later told by the person organizing the people for whom the section was reserved that they had paid for the botafumeiro to be swung. So it seems that you won't have to stand in line or arrive early - choice seats will be saved for you.
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