Camino History and the Stone Boat?

[Robert C. Deming]

I walked the Camino Francais last year and am about to embark on the Camino Portugues from Lisbon. I recently read about the 'mooring stone' at Padron to which the 'stone boat' containing the body of St James. I have always written that story off to 'crazy middle-ages' storytelling and assumed there was little, if any truth in it. What if the story is true, at least some of it? Do any of you know where and when the story appeared? Is it possible that saying the boat was made of stone wasn't perfectly accurate, but that it was the best description available for an unknown material in a time when all boats were made of wood? I imagine that a steel boat would have seemed just as improbable 2000 years ago as a stone boat does today. Now I feel compelled to make the journey to Padron to see this stone.

 

[David]

There was a slang term for a boat not carrying cargo, one that could be privately chartered for people, as it didn't have cargo it had to have more ballast down in the hold to keep it stable at sea, and stones, shingle, was always used - so, a stone boat. Ship in ballast. On some shingle beaches in England you can still see piles of gravel where over the centuries ballast was thrown out to be replaced by cargo (and vice versa of course).

 

[mspath]

This account might be of further interest.
https://www.hscala.com/en/blog/padron-puerto-fluvial-del-camino-de-santiago

 

[Robert C. Deming]

Interesting! The boat made of stone concept apparently was taken literally at some point, and then there is the Virgin showing up in a stone boat at Muxia to help St James with his evangelizing. Perhaps it was artists imaginations. I assume all legends have their root in a real person or event, but are embellished over the centuries. We have those in Texas from as recently as the mid-1800’s.

 

[mspath]

The act of moving Saint James body in a stone boat is known as the traslación

See more here including a medieval ms illustration depicting the voyage.
http://adelantelafe.blogspot.fr/2013/12/traslacion-de-santiago-apostol.html?m=1

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Stone/concrete can float:

SS Palo Alto was a concrete ship built as a tanker at the end of World War I. It was built by the San Francisco Shipbuilding Company at the U.S. Naval Shipyard in Oakland, California. It was launched on 29 May 1919, too late to see service in the war. Her sister ship was the SS Peralta.




An aerial view of the wreck Palo Alto in 2013.

It was mothballed in Oakland until 1929, when it was bought by the Seacliff Amusement Corporation and towed to Seacliff State Beach in Aptos, California. A pier was built leading to the ship in 1930, and it was sunk in a few feet in the water so that its keel rested on the bottom. There it was refitted as an amusement ship, with amenities including a dance floor, a swimming pool and a café.

The company went bankrupt two years later during the Great Depression, and the ship cracked at the midsection during a winter storm. The State of California purchased the ship, and it was stripped of her fittings and left as a fishing pier. It was a popular site for recreational fishing, but eventually it deteriorated to the point where it was unsafe for this purpose, and it was closed to the public in 1950. Following an attempt at restoration in the 1980s, it reopened for fishing for a few years, then closed again. The fishing pier opened to foot traffic once again in the summer of 2016, but later closed for repairs.

Nicknamed the "Cement Ship," Palo Alto today remains at Seacliff Beach and serves as an artificial reef for marine life. Pelicans and other seabirds perch on the wreck, sea perch and other fish feed on algae that grows in the shelter of the wreck, and sea lions and other marine mammals visit the wreck to feed on the fish.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

I discovered this post just a couple of hours ago;

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...t-it-means-to-be-a-pilgrim.53989/#post-602100

The source is credible and the story is fascinating.

 

[Camembert]

Stone/concrete can float:

SS Palo Alto was a concrete ship built as a tanker at the end of World War I. It was built by the San Francisco Shipbuilding Company at the U.S. Naval Shipyard in Oakland, California. It was launched on 29 May 1919, too late to see service in the war. Her sister ship was the SS Peralta.




An aerial view of the wreck Palo Alto in 2013.

It was mothballed in Oakland until 1929, when it was bought by the Seacliff Amusement Corporation and towed to Seacliff State Beach in Aptos, California. A pier was built leading to the ship in 1930, and it was sunk in a few feet in the water so that its keel rested on the bottom. There it was refitted as an amusement ship, with amenities including a dance floor, a swimming pool and a café.

The company went bankrupt two years later during the Great Depression, and the ship cracked at the midsection during a winter storm. The State of California purchased the ship, and it was stripped of her fittings and left as a fishing pier. It was a popular site for recreational fishing, but eventually it deteriorated to the point where it was unsafe for this purpose, and it was closed to the public in 1950. Following an attempt at restoration in the 1980s, it reopened for fishing for a few years, then closed again. The fishing pier opened to foot traffic once again in the summer of 2016, but later closed for repairs.

Nicknamed the "Cement Ship," Palo Alto today remains at Seacliff Beach and serves as an artificial reef for marine life. Pelicans and other seabirds perch on the wreck, sea perch and other fish feed on algae that grows in the shelter of the wreck, and sea lions and other marine mammals visit the wreck to feed on the fish.

I would mention this one but you allready did ! Very good. It allways fascinated me when I saw it ,staying in California. Thanks for posting this and remembering me this.

 

[Anamiri]

Stone/concrete can float:

SS Palo Alto was a concrete ship built as a tanker at the end of World War I. It was built by the San Francisco Shipbuilding Company at the U.S. Naval Shipyard in Oakland, California. It was launched on 29 May 1919, too late to see service in the war. Her sister ship was the SS Peralta.




An aerial view of the wreck Palo Alto in 2013.

It was mothballed in Oakland until 1929, when it was bought by the Seacliff Amusement Corporation and towed to Seacliff State Beach in Aptos, California. A pier was built leading to the ship in 1930, and it was sunk in a few feet in the water so that its keel rested on the bottom. There it was refitted as an amusement ship, with amenities including a dance floor, a swimming pool and a café.

The company went bankrupt two years later during the Great Depression, and the ship cracked at the midsection during a winter storm. The State of California purchased the ship, and it was stripped of her fittings and left as a fishing pier. It was a popular site for recreational fishing, but eventually it deteriorated to the point where it was unsafe for this purpose, and it was closed to the public in 1950. Following an attempt at restoration in the 1980s, it reopened for fishing for a few years, then closed again. The fishing pier opened to foot traffic once again in the summer of 2016, but later closed for repairs.

Nicknamed the "Cement Ship," Palo Alto today remains at Seacliff Beach and serves as an artificial reef for marine life. Pelicans and other seabirds perch on the wreck, sea perch and other fish feed on algae that grows in the shelter of the wreck, and sea lions and other marine mammals visit the wreck to feed on the fish.

Ferro-cement (reinforced concrete) has long been the material of material of choice for home boat-builders on a severe budget. (I once worked in a high end boat yard - they were referred to as floating septic tanks). You would see them propped up in back yards with no discernible progress for years.
I see a number of them still around the harbour, proof that concrete (stone) does float. I believe they are relatively high maintenance, and you dont want to run aground, as the concrete stoves in easily.

 

[t2andreo]

Last July - August, while I was volunteering at the Pilgrim Office, we had a special tour of the Cathedral Museum, grounds, roof, cloisters, and library. The tour was conducted, in Spanish, by the priest who is the resident historian of the Cathedral.

As we walked along, many questions were asked (in Spanish). I asked a colleague who spoke fluent Spanish to ask the priest conducting the tour to expound on how St. James' remains found their way to Spain, after his beheading in AD 44.

There are many stories, legends, and myths out there. Many books have been written. Chief among these is the legend of the Stone Boat, or boat made of stone that miraculously drifted up the river near Padron. It is their story and legend, so they are welcome to it. I have been to Muxia to see the alleged stone that is sort of, kind of, shaped like a boat...then again...

As you no doubt know, there are many and varied accounts of how this all happened. What follows below, in bullet format, is how it was explained to my group of volunteers.

I apologize in advance if I misunderstood something. However, I was able to ask several follow-up questions. One of my questions was; "Just how much of this is documented in early writings or other physical evidence?" So, the context for what I am about to explain is what I understood from the narration by the Cathedral historian (a priest), with my elaborative questions asked.

• At the first (Christian) Pentacost, the Apostles discovered they could speak in 'tongues," languages previous not known to them. (Documented)
• Subsequent to that, Peter (as the first Pope) assigned the Apostles to spread the Gospel to the ends of the known world, as Jesus had directed them to do. James the Greater, drew the Iberian assignment. Other Apostles traveled in other directions. Just as an aside, my namesake, Thomas, ended up in Western India and was buried in Goa...go figure... (Documented)
• At the time, Iberia was part of the Roman Empire. Trade with Greece was common, at least along the Mediterranean coast of the peninsula. James spoke Latin and Greek. (Documented)
• James traveled to Iberia after the Ascension of Christ, AD 33 - 34. He remained there for some nine - ten years. However, during that time, it is thought that James 'only' made nine converts. The church's interpretation is that this represents nine or ten 'families' or households. This is because, back-in-the-day, the faith of the master of the household (or head of the family) was usually taken up by all who worked for or (as slaves) were owned by the master. So the actual number of Christians was likely much higher than only nine or ten persons. (Documented)
• Around 43 AD, for an unknown reason, James returned to the Holy Land / Jerusalem with two followers, Athanasias and Thaddeus. (I do not know the origins of these two fellows). The, then current King Herod, discovering that James was in town, had him arrested, imprisoned and eventually beheaded, in AD 44. (Documented)
• In the habit of the Romans, executed criminals bodies were either left on a crucifix to rot, as an example to others, or tossed onto a trash heap outside the city for the animals to consume. James' body (and presumably head) were tossed on such a heap. Athanasius and Thaddeus retrieved the remains surreptitiously, and fled Jerusalem, and the Holy Land, heading for the coast. (Documented) (stay tuned...)
• (as an aside and for comparison) the Romans' believed the remains of executed criminals were unclean. Persons who handled then were considered unclean forever more, and shunned by society. (Documented)
• Parenthetically, Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ) was accorded a Jewish burial because a supporter, Joseph of Arimathea, went to Pontius Pilate and asked for Jesus' body to be released to him. Permission was given by Pilate, Jesus was removed from the Cross following his apparent death and buried in a family tomb owned by Joseph of Arimathea. This leads to Easter Sunday... but I digress... (Documented)
• (back the main narrative...) So, Athanasius and Thaddeus are hot-footing it to the coast to try to get a boat to head West, away from persecution and prosecution. They link up with a supporter who runs a boat service that transports (cut and uncut STONES, statues, as well as semi-precious and precious stones from Palestine to points in the Roman Empire to the West. (Documented, the existence of such boats and the routes, not the relationship.That is conjecture)
• It is believed that this boat made stops along the way, possibly in Italy and Sicily before arriving on the Eastern coast of Iberia, likely in Tarraco (modern day Tarragona). (Conjecture, based on facts)
• From there, Athanasius and Thaddeus made their way, with a box containing James' remains, across the Iberian peninsula. (Conjecture, based on facts)
• There was a Roman road that led all the way to the area near Santiago. Review this image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iberian_Peninsula_in_125-en.svg (Documented)
• At the site of the current Cathedral in Santiago, you can see the remains in the foundation excavations. The Cathedral is built atop the remains of a first century Roman villa. I have personally seen this, and seen the remains of the first-century villa. This villa was owned by a family that was believed to be among the nine or ten families converted to Christianity by James, when he was first here. (Conjecture and Documented)
• It is believed the family granted permission to inter James' remains in one of their family crypts. FYI & BTW, the wall of this first century crypt is one of the walls still remaining in the under-altar crypt containing the silver coffin (chest) holding the Apostles' remains. This is the approximate location where the original remains were discovered in the first-half of the 800's. (Conjecture, based on archeological findings).
• It is in this burial niche that the three sets of bones were later discovered by the hermit monk in or about AD 844. (Documented)
• The presence of two other skeletons in the stone niche and eventually the silver coffin / chest is explained by the family granting permission for the interment of the remains of Athanasius and Thaddeus when they eventually died. (Conjecture)
• The likely reason for the long time (some 800 years) between James' internment and discovery was that, when the Roman Empire fell a couple of hundred years later, multiple tribes from the North invaded and ransacked the former Roman territories. These included the Vandals and the Goths. Then in 711, the Islamic Moors came out of North Africa and invaded the Iberian peninsula.
• Settlements, like the one at the present day Santiago were abandoned as people literally dispersed into the countryside so as to not attract attention and the wrath of the invading hoards. Over time, knowledge of the burial of James' remains at that site was lost and forgotten. The former first-century villa was ruined and overgrown. (Documented, and conjecture, based on known facts)
• Whatever the cause for the rediscovery in or around the year 844 (star shower, dream, Divine intervention, whatever), the fact is that the first-century villa and burial place was found. Markings on the niche were curious / suspicious and prompted notification of the local King (Asturias if I recall correctly) and the local Bishop. The Bishop communicated with the then Pope in Rome. The rest, as they say, is history... (Documented)
• In the late 1800's a forensic analysis (such as it was for the day) was permitted by the Church. The medical finding then was that the silver coffin / chest held the remains of a single male who was in his 40's when he died and that the head had been separated from the body, apparently by a sword. Also found in the coffin were two complete skeletons of males who died in their 60s. This matches most contemporaneous accounts regarding Athanasius and Thaddeus. (Conjecture & Documentation).

Absent DNA analysis, there is no way to be more categorical about the remains found and venerated as the remains of St. james the Greater. However, as the Pope, in his ultimate authority as the Vicar of Christ on earth, proclaimed these remains to be the real deal around 850 AD, all observant Christians were obligated to follow his lead...THAT lead to the development of what we commonly call the 'Cult of Santiago.'

And here we are...

I am trying to relate accurately what I was told, through an interpreter, by the Cathedral historian, last July - August. I hope I related it accurately, as I heard and understood it.

So, it is likely that the STONE BOAT never existed. But, be in far from me to disabuse Padron of their claim to fame. The account I laid out above is more likely than not, based on: documentation, archaeological evidence, and reasonable conjecture based on historical facts. Of course, at some point, one must remain agnostic, or simply choose to believe, as I do. It DOES make life so much easier.

That said, I am NOT the authoritative source...merely the messenger...

Also, I came back after going to my gym to work out, to edit and better explain a couple of loose ends. It reads a tad better now.

As always, I hope this helps.

 

[David]

t2Andreo! That is the clearest, most succinct retelling I have ever read! Marvellous.

I hear, quite often, the query of why James would go all the way to northern Spain, as if it were some primitive out of the way region, but it wasn't. It was part of the Roman empire, rich and civilised (unless you were a mine slave) because of the vast silver deposits. Legions were garrisoned there ... not a poor savage place but a centre for Rome and its influence. The first disciples were sent out to those centres because it was at those places that the greatest concentration of Jews of the diaspora were to be found. As with Thomas going to India, at one end of the busy trade routes, to attempt to convert Jews, far from home.

(Without argument I would query with you whether Peter was a 'Pope' at that time, some years before moving to Rome, and that it may possibly have been James, the brother of Jesus, who sent the disciples outwards, as it was James who led the Jerusalem Christians, though as we know, they didn't call themselves Christians, as far as they were concerned they were Jews.

I notice that the Armenian Cathedral in Jerusalem claim to have the head of St James as well, though that church wasn't built until some four hundred years after the discovery in Iberia

I have copied your post and pasted it into a doc on my laptop - excellent stuff!!!

p.s. - Andreo - you may be a closet Unitarian rather than a Trinitarian - "following his apparent death" ???

 

[t2andreo]

David:

I am a 'cradle Catholic,' but have lived long enough to understand how and why the institution we know as the Roman Catholic Church came to be, and to thrive over the millennia. Thus, my interpretation and consideration of everything served to me is tempered by age, experience, and education. That said, at this point, my orientation is not likely to change. I am content with my place in the universe...

The more I learn, generally, the more I know. The more I know, the better I can process subsequent experience, observation, and knowledge. This makes me more sanguine and understanding of alternative viewpoints. When viewed against the background of human history, everything can be seen in a relative context. This helps when trying to understand the development of the major world religious systems, as well as the many offshoots along the way. Knowledge is good!

Whether Peter, at that time, was in fact the "Pope" can be debated. In scripture and related documentation, it is commonly held that Jesus DID proclaim to Simon (before the name change) that "you are Petrus / Peter / rock (ES = Piedras), and upon you I shall build my church..." IMHO, That much is not debatable.

The exact chronology of when the group of Christians (then considered an offshoot of Judaism) actually designated a FIRST Pope is a relative thing, and likely not of serious import. This likely occurred later, after a succession of group leaders were proclaimed by the merry group of followers. I believe that as one leader 'departed' the others (remaining Apostles or derivative Bishops) met in a group (conclave) to decide who their new leader (Pope) should be.

This is because all the Christians at that time considered Peter their leader. My statement that Peter, as the first Pope made the missionary assignments, was more of an historical point of reference rather than a hard fact.

Oh, the point about 'apparent death' is simply being aware of the fact that there was nothing in medical science or practice at the time (such as it was) that could conclude actual brain death. I AM NOT debating the fact of the Resurrection. I AM merely stating that there are many alternative medical hypothesis regarding how an apparently dead person might be resuscitated after a 72 - hour deep coma or sleep.

Also, as regards the 'head' thing...as in, who has the "true head" of Saint James, or for that matter the true part of any purported holy person anywhere, the ancient world is replete with purported first-class relics of deceased holy persons. First-class relics are parts of the person's bodies.

Absent DNA comparison between a remote head (or other body part), and the bones in the silver casket under the Santiago Cathedral altar, a factual connection cannot be made. That still does not establish that the bones are in fact those of the Apostle, Saint James. I do not see that ever happening, for a variety of reasons. As stated previously, this is the juncture of fact and faith. Most, including me, simply take aboard all that we do know, and choose to believe the remainder as an article of our faith...entiendo?

As a Catholic, I accept and believe. But, as an intelligent being, I do read, process and learn. We will never likely know the entire story. This is similar to the whole 'Cult of Santiago.' At some point, people need to suspend thought and reason and simply opt to believe. Of course, you can argue this point. But, why? Merely being right is not enough, IMHO.

Hope this helps.

 

[AlwynWellington]

The act of moving Saint James body in a stone boat is known as the traslación

In English I have encountered "translation" used in respect of the movement of the remains of any saint from one place to another.

In north-east England a memorable translation is that of S Cuthbert from Holy Island to a location immediately to the east of the high altar at Durham Cathedral.

And the term "translation" is also used when a bishop is appointed to / installed in another diocese. Recent translations of this type include (again in England) John Sentamu from Birmingham to York and Justin Welby from Durham to Canterbury. And, in my part of the world, of Brian Davis from Waikato to Wellington.

 

[David]

David:

I am a 'cradle Catholic,' but have lived long enough to understand how and why the institution we know as the Roman Catholic Church came to be, and to thrive over the millennia. Thus, my interpretation and consideration of everything served to me is tempered by age, experience, and education. That said, at this point, my orientation is not likely to change. I am content with my place in the universe...

The more I learn, generally, the more I know. The more I know, the better I can process subsequent experience, observation, and knowledge. This makes me more sanguine and understanding of alternative viewpoints. When viewed against the background of human history, everything can be seen in a relative context. This helps when trying to understand the development of the major world religious systems, as well as the many offshoots along the way. Knowledge is good!

Whether Peter, at that time, was in fact the "Pope" can be debated. In scripture and related documentation, it is commonly held that Jesus DID proclaim to Simon (before the name change) that "you are Petrus / Peter / rock (ES = Piedras), and upon you I shall build my church..." IMHO, That much is not debatable.

The exact chronology of when the group of Christians (then considered an offshoot of Judaism) actually designated a FIRST Pope is a relative thing, and likely not of serious import. This likely occurred later, after a succession of group leaders were proclaimed by the merry group of followers. I believe that as one leader 'departed' the others (remaining Apostles or derivative Bishops) met in a group (conclave) to decide who their new leader (Pope) should be.

This is because all the Christians at that time considered Peter their leader. My statement that Peter, as the first Pope made the missionary assignments, was more of an historical point of reference rather than a hard fact.

Oh, the point about 'apparent death' is simply being aware of the fact that there was nothing in medical science or practice at the time (such as it was) that could conclude actual brain death. I AM NOT debating the fact of the Resurrection. I AM merely stating that there are many alternative medical hypothesis regarding how an apparently dead person might be resuscitated after a 7- hour deep coma or sleep.

Also, as regards the 'head' thing...as in, who has the "true head" of Saint James, or for that matter the true part of any purported holy person anywhere, the ancient world is replete with purported first-class relics of deceased holy persons. First-class relics are parts of the person's bodies.

Absent DNA comparison between a remote head (or other body part), and the bones in the silver casket under the Santiago Cathedral altar, a factual connection cannot be made. That still does not establish that the bones are in fact those of the Apostle, Saint James. I do not see that ever happening, for a variety of reasons. As stated previously, this is the juncture of fact and faith. Most, including me, simply take aboard all that we do know, and choose to believe the remainder as an article of our faith...entiendo?

As a Catholic, I accept and believe. But, as an intelligent being, I do read, process and learn. We will never likely know the entire story. This is similar to the whole 'Cult of Santiago.' At some point, people need to suspend thought and reason and simply opt to believe. Of course, you can argue this point. But, why? Merely being right is not enough, IMHO.

Hope this helps.

I agree with you - and although I like to reason and to debate, those two great human facets, when it comes right down to it I go with Thomas a Kempis (I of C - Chapter 1)

" Indeed it is not learning that makes a man holy and just, but a virtuous life makes him pleasing to God. I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it. For what would it profit us to know the whole Bible by heart and the principles of all the philosophers if we live without grace and the love of God? Vanity of vanities and all is vanity, except to love God and serve Him alone."

And my p.s. - my last comment - it was only humour.

 

[t2andreo]

David:

Your last nailed it. It summarizes my theory of life succinctly. Thank you for that.

The 'apparent death' thing is actually a subject of scientific debate. However, as mentioned, and IMHO, it simply works better if one simply opts to accept and believe as an article of faith, rather than to seek to KNOW all things.

Happy Easter!

 

[David]

Andreo - I raise a virtual glass to you, and hope that we meet up on Camino one day and can sit and drink good wine from real glasses and chat and laugh. Buen Camino brother.

 

[grayland]

This thread has been moved to the
Miscellaneous Camino Frances topics sub forum.

It has interest to many members who may miss it in the original location.

 

[naplesdon]

There is another interesting "legend" about early saints fleeing the Holy Lands. The 3 Marys (Mary of Clopas, Mary Salome and Mary Magdalene) ended up in the Camargue Region of France around the same time Saint James was killed. Their servant Sarah, since sanctified, is the object of numerous pilgrimages to Saintes Marie de la Mer by the Roma people who consider her their patron saint.
I have been there during one of these celebrations and if you are into this kind of ancient religious research, it is not to be missed.

 

[Robert C. Deming]

This is all very interesting! Thank you for your responses. I spend little time reading comments and forums as they tend to be full of bombastic people with bad manners, but this discussion has been civil and the ideas fascinating. As a Protestant, I don't have skin in the game, but as a writer, I am interested in story. I'll be in Lisbon on May 4th to walk to Santiago.

 

[grayland]

This is all very interesting! Thank you for your responses. I spend little time reading comments and forums as they tend to be full of bombastic people with bad manners, but this discussion has been civil and the ideas fascinating. As a Protestant, I don't have skin in the game, but as a writer, I am interested in story. I'll be in Lisbon on May 4th to walk to Santiago.

I am happy that you found the discussion and answers to your original question interesting and worthwhile reading.
I am sorry that you find the other comments on the forum not to your liking and full of bad mannered people.

 

[Robert C. Deming]

I was speaking of other forums! This one is great.