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Cruz de Ferro - What is its history, and what happens to all those stones?

dick bird

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This may upset some people. The Cruz de Ferro is an iconic site and it has become a tradition to leave a stone or other memento, often in memory of someone who has passed away, on the mound surrounding the cross. This has been going on for many years now. However, the mound does not seem to be getting bigger. I saw a reference in one post to the council cleaning the actual cross itself, but do they also do something to prevent the huge pile of stones and other mementoes getting out of control? The rumour I have heard is that the council send in a digger and a truck to cart them away. Is this true? Does anyone know?

I looked through past threads, but can see no mention of this issue.
 
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I had heard the same thing as you. Wonder where they put them all?

But it makes sense that they remove many - the pile doesn't seem to be growing drastically considering the number of people on the CF each year (basing this speculation on pictures I have seen over the last few years)
 
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Sometimes it's quicker to do a Google search rather than a forum search.
I googled "Cruz de Ferro cleanup" and this thread was the first result:

Yes, the site does get cleaned and stuff hauled away periodically.
I saw that, but it only refers to cleaning the cross itself. But henrythedog claims they remove the mound and use it for roadfill. That corroborates the rumour, but I´d still like more solid evidence.
 
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Slightly off topic I realize, but speaking Cruz de Ferro, I found it a bit odd to see pilgrims climbing the hill to take selfies. I'm probably overthinking it, but it just seemed to me that this spot was a bit sacred, and taking selfies next to the cross felt kinda like going up onto an alter at church and taking a selfie next to the crucifix.
 
Slightly off topic I realize, but speaking Cruz de Ferro, I found it a bit odd to see pilgrims climbing the hill to take selfies. I'm probably overthinking it, but it just seemed to me that this spot was a bit sacred, and taking selfies next to the cross felt kinda like going up onto an alter at church and taking a selfie next to the crucifix.
I suspect some people would happily stand on an altar and take a selfie next to a crucifix, maybe even dig up a grave and do the same. There are lots of weird people in the world. ;)

I mentioned in the other thread that I saw someone spread the contents of an urn on the rock pile back in 2017. So I guess that person is immortalised in the pile, the roads and the environment of the camino.
 
Like our Dog friend,Henry (and his human pet David), I have watched the backhoe and dump truck reduce the pile of rocks and overflow several times over the years.

Sadly, it may come as a bit of a shock to learn that several locals make it a regular (daily?) practice to come by car and “mine” the mound for any valuables that may be left by pilgrims. Many people leave valuable keepsakes and jewelry as a memento to loved ones. Most are not aware that they do not stay there very long.
I have personally observed this twice and talked to others that have also watched it happen. It is usually afternoon when most pilgrims have passed.

Maybe it is good that folks are not aware of this. :(
 
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Slightly off topic I realize, but speaking Cruz de Ferro, I found it a bit odd to see pilgrims climbing the hill to take selfies. I'm probably overthinking it, but it just seemed to me that this spot was a bit sacred, and taking selfies next to the cross felt kinda like going up onto an alter at church and taking a selfie next to the crucifix.
The Instagram Effect
 
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Perhaps @Kathar1na or @dougfitz can repost ( I think I remember their posts) on the subject.
From memory: I spent some time on searching information about the Cruz de Ferro on the internet and in books: There is no evidence that pilgrims before say 1950 brought stones from home to leave them at the site; no evidence that there was once a Roman altar at the site; no evidence that it was once a Celtic memorial. All of this is speculation.

I did not detect that there is much of an archaeological or scholarly interest in the Cruz de Ferro site.

The site is regularly cleaned by local associations of what contemporary pilgrims left and what is generally considered as basura - trash, rubbish, visual and actual pollution of the natural environment. There are articles about such cleaning activities in local news media (see photo in next post).

I've read on this forum that stones are cart away by the local council but I have never seen a photo or a story in the news media about this. There are trash containers at the site and they are regularly emptied by staff. It happened while I was there.

There is an online story according to which Tomás from Manjarín claims that the current heap of stones was created by diggers when the current road was built and that the original mound was elsewhere (perhaps just a few metres away?).

There is an absolute monstrous mound of stones a few hundred metres away in the wooded area to the east, much much higher and wider than at the Cruz de Ferro. You can clearly see it on Google Earth. I found little information about it. I intended to pass by but it was sunny and hot on the day I walked and we preferred to spend time having a bite to eat at one of the picnic tables next to the Cruz de Ferro, enjoying the silence and the natural environment; it was midday with barely any other visitors.

Numerous - not all - contemporary pilgrims come with the preconceived idea that the mound is a sacred site. I personally think that this is an idea that has been developed during recent decades. It is not more sacred to me than any other mountain peak or pass (where you ought to be fairly quiet and not shout about and frolic around because you are in a natural environment that ought to be respected). It is not more sacred than any other symbolic cross that had been erected in the outdoors - perhaps even less so as the symbol high up on the pole serves, or apparently used to serve, mainly as a signal that helped walkers not to get lost, and supposedly also served as a separation marker for territories with separate ownership.
 
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There is an absolute monstrous mound of stones a few hundred metres away in the wooded area to the east, much much higher and wider than at the Cruz de Ferro.
I think we can all make a pretty shrewd guess for how that got there. Brilliant sleuthing as ever, thank you.
 
I have searched for but never found a photo or postcard of the Cruz de Ferro site from before say 1950. If you know of such an image, please please post it.

Tomas Martinez de Paz of Manjarin speaks of a previous mast (it was destroyed by vandals in the 1990s I think) that was erected por los vecinos de Manjarin y Foncebadon en el año 50/51 - it was erected by the inhabitants of Manjarin and Foncebadon in the years 1950/1951 when they also put a replica of the 17th century cross on the new mast while the original cross was then kept the Astorga museum.

I am curious to know what the site looked like before 1950.
 
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They do remove the obvious trash, but the mound has still grown -- though it has been a very slow process, and it's only by coming back every 5-10 years or so over a period of decades that you can see any differences.

However, the recent work to create access ramps and otherwise "landscape" the mound and its immediate surrounding area may end up stabilizing it a lot more.
 
Oldest image I could find with a quick search is this one :

Cruz de Ferro.jpg

That's close to how it looked in 1994, though this photo looks older than that.

It's hard to tell from the angle, but the mound did use to be smaller than it is today.

Edit :

There's another older one here which shows more clearly what the consistency of it used to look like ; guessing a 1990s digital photo :

https://www.superstock.com/asset/er...monticulo-formado-por-guijarros/4409-28611364
 
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I know where one of the 'stones' are. It's on top of the heater in our living room!

The story.

In March 2019 I walked from Pamplona to SdC. I took with me a piece of marble stone that had our three grandchildrens name's written thereon. The names and the stone were coated in varnish and I was hoping by doing so, the names would be protected from the elements.

When I arrived at the Cross I left the stone.

Cut to February 2020, we, Mrs B and I, were travelling North from Portugal to return home to the UK in our motorhome. On a whim I asked her if she would like to see some of the places I had visited while on my Camino. So, when I travelled from Molinseca to Foncebadon and passed the Cruz, I recalled leaving the stone.

I stopped and searched the site and surprising myself, I found the previously left stone.

That stone came home, a very special keepsake of a very special period of my life.

PS. I have just started the organisation of another Camino next year accompanied by two of my Grandchildren, two of the names on that stone.

PPS How do I put that future Camino with my avatar (<<<Left) I've looked and I can't find out how.

That has now been sorted, thanks to Dougfitz. Thank you.
IMG_20230712_125854.jpg
My prized stone.
 
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I think I posted the first of the two photos below before. It shows the Cruz de Ferro site in the 1960s. You can see that it is the pole that was presumably erected by the local community in 1950/51 because it is quite "wavy" for lack of a better word. It was replaced in 1999. The current pole is straight and has broad metal bands at various intervals. The second photo is unfortunately undated. It appears to have been taken before the reforestation. You can see in Google Earth that the plantation of the trees around the Cruz de Ferro area is in very orderly rows - so it is not an old forest.

Cruz.jpg
 
You can see in Google Earth that the plantation of the trees around the Cruz de Ferro area is in very orderly rows - so it is not an old forest.
I didn't take any photos on my 1990 Camino but my vague recollection is that the Cruz was much more exposed than it is now and I have no memory of it being surrounded by trees
 
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PPS How do I put that future Camino with my avatar (<<<Left) I've looked and I can't find out how.
One way that you can do this, assuming you are logged in:

a. on the top menu bar, click on your name/avatar. This will bring up a drop down menu with two tabs, Your account and Bookmarks. The Your account tab should be active, but if it isn't click on the tab to make it so.
b. find the Account details selection and click on that.
c. in the middle of the screen (on my PC, at least) there are a set of entry boxes. Scroll down to one titled Time of past OR future Camino and add any details you want to appear below your avatar.
d. go down to the bottom of the form and click on Save.
 
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Like our Dog friend,Henry (and his human pet David), I have watched the backhoe and dump truck reduce the pile of rocks and overflow several times over the years.

Sadly, it may come as a bit of a shock to learn that several locals make it a regular (daily?) practice to come by car and “mine” the mound for any valuables that may be left by pilgrims. Many people leave valuable keepsakes and jewelry as a memento to loved ones. Most are not aware that they do not stay there very long.
I have personally observed this twice and talked to others that have also watched it happen. It is usually afternoon when most pilgrims have passed.

Maybe it is good that folks are not aware of this. :(
Off topic, but interesting regarding locals: I was at Bodega Irache about 1700 one afternoon when a car pulled up and waited for me to leave. I looked back to see 3 women exit the car with 2-liter empty soda bottles. I doubt they were filling them up with the free water!
 
The actual history of the site is fairly recent and disputed as a “sacred” site by many. Perhaps @Kathar1na or @dougfitz can repost ( I think I remember their posts) on the subject.
There are many somewhat conflicting stories on the origin and history.
It really is an ancient site, but anyone trying to trace its history using English-language sources soon hits a brick wall --The huge majority of Camino historical record is NOT available in English.
Closest thing we have in English is Gitlitz & Davidson's indispensible 'Pilgrimage Road to Santiago: The Complete Cultural Handbook." These Camino pioneers and Univ. of Rhode Island professors say the pile of stones and cross "may result from a variety of ancient customs. The pre-Roman Celts were in the habit of marking their high mountain passes with piles of rock (for which we still use the Gaelic word cairns). Roman travelers also customarily marked high passes by leaving stones, called murias, in honor of the god Mercury, the patron of travelers. The hermit Gaucelmo, (c. 1103) who topped the pile here with a cross, essentially Christianized a pagan monument."

The Ur Text for modern Camino scholars is the three-volume "Las Peregrinaciones a Santiago de Compostela," compiled by Vaquez de Parga, Lacarra, y Rius in 1945. It covers the Cruz de Ferro briefly in the second volume: (pardon my shabby translation)
" At the top of the path that leads to Manjarin, the dividing line between the Astorga and Bierzo districts, there is a large conical pile stones, at the top of which is a five-meter-high wooden pole, to which we must add the meter and a half measure of the iron cross embedded in it. Stones were piled up there, place by Galician migrant reapers when they passed to Castile for the first time, following a custom of pagan ancestry... It is still today a venerable relic of the ancient pilgrimages to Santiago, defying the weather and the centuries, despite its flimsy structure. Contrast its permanence with the ruin of so many huge buildings that have disappeared everywhere."

Uria's source materials are "Deseno de Gogorafia e Historia de la Provincia y Osbispado de Leon, 1855, which says "these mountains of stones that appear in several counties, deposited by passing travelers, are called "Mountains of Mercury," but the custom is said to reach back to pre-Roman times."

Uria later adds that "The parish priest of Molinaseca said that "at least 20 years ago (the Cruz) fell down, but was erected anew by a private citizen. This private maintenance has precedents reaching back over centuries."
 
For those interested in the general topic and not only in the potential fate of surplus stones at the Cruz de Ferro site 😊: The blog with the link shown below is quite good.

It has a photo and a description of the other nearby heap of stones already mentioned and also a link to a source (Matías Rodríguez, Historia de Astorga, p. 167) that contains the relevant quote from the document of 1103. I sometimes manage to retrieve an original document in an archive with online access but did not try this time. I often have success with anything that is in the BNF in Paris, and they have lot, but I don't think that they have a copy of the document where Alfonso VI grants territorial privileges to Gaucelmo.

Enjoy 😊.


PS: A long time ago, I had seen a different photo of this other heap that showed not only the hito but also a walker so that you can see how tall it is but for the life of me I cannot find it again. It's on the Ruta Manjarín y Monte Irago.
 
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I didn't take any photos on my 1990 Camino but my vague recollection is that the Cruz was much more exposed than it is now and I have no memory of it being surrounded by trees
The major difference I noticed between 1994 and the 2000s and later was that the mound barely touched the road in the 90s, but in the 2000s and 2010s and 2020s, it was right up to the edge of the road for 10s of metres.
 
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This may upset some people. The Cruz de Ferro is an iconic site and it has become a tradition to leave a stone or other memento, often in memory of someone who has passed away, on the mound surrounding the cross. This has been going on for many years now. However, the mound does not seem to be getting bigger. I saw a reference in one post to the council cleaning the actual cross itself, but do they also do something to prevent the huge pile of stones and other mementoes getting out of control? The rumour I have heard is that the council send in a digger and a truck to cart them away. Is this true? Does anyone know?

I looked through past threads, but can see no mention of this issue.
Not a rumour. That is what happens. Think how high it would be if the stones were just left there. In the Bay of Kotor there is a church, Our Lady Of The Rock, built on a man made island. The local villagers and fishermen have, for a couple of hundred years or more, rowed out to the spot and threw in stones and rocks. Given what they did, can you imagine what the cruz would be like after all the centuries of pilgrimage. The totem pole at least would no longer be visible. But the stone is only a symbol of what is in your heart so it should not really upset anyone to know that the stones are removed as they are only stones
 
This is one of the most interesting posts I’ve seen on the Forum in a long time!
Thanks all of you historians for your input!
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
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Cruz de Ferro 1989
Hi @Hospitalero! Great photo! I guess that is you in 1989 ☺️?

Just curious: At the time, was it widely known that peregrinos could / should bring a stone from home?

Also, when I look at your photo (as well as at others), the stones on the surface appear to be largely stones that don't look like they've been carried in backpacks over long distances and there does not seem to be much variety in their material composition ...
 
That old wavy pole is unmistakable. Wonderful photo, @Hospitalero !
I was just about to post these two photos from the Getty Images website: creation dates are 1980 and 2022. I don't know whether this means the year when the photos were taken or the year when they were created/uploaded to the website but in any case they clearly show the difference between the pole before 1999 and after 1999.

Poles and stones.jpg
 
Hi @Hospitalero! Great photo! I guess that is you in 1989 ☺️?

Just curious: At the time, was it widely known that peregrinos could / should bring a stone from home?

Also, when I look at your photo (as well as at others), the stones on the surface appear to be largely stones that don't look like they've been carried in backpacks over long distances and there does not seem to be much variety in their material composition ...
It's from this book.20230713_091615.jpg
 
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Stones were piled up there, place by Galician migrant reapers when they passed to Castile for the first time, following a custom of pagan ancestry... It is still today a venerable relic of the ancient pilgrimages to Santiago, defying the weather and the centuries, despite its flimsy structure. Contrast its permanence with the ruin of so many huge buildings that have disappeared everywhere.
The explanation I heard locally in the 1990s was that local peasants asked travellers to carry a stone up and away from their fields. Not sure I buy it, but well, that's one story ..
Uria's source materials are "Deseno de Gogorafia e Historia de la Provincia y Osbispado de Leon, 1855, which says "these mountains of stones that appear in several counties, deposited by passing travelers, are called "Mountains of Mercury," but the custom is said to reach back to pre-Roman times."
Such cairns were definitely used as route markers (and boundary markers) in not just Spain but also France between Roman times and 18th to 19th Century, though typically the few that have survived the road modernization and tarmacking are MUCH smaller.

Of course, the Romans used the famous cylindrical stone markers on the important roads, and the cairns may very well have been an older system used on the earlier "celtic" roads network.

I somewhat doubt that the modern pilgrim custom of taking a stone from home can be older than about the 1990s, though older reference to it would be interesting.
 
I somewhat doubt that the modern pilgrim custom of taking a stone from home can be older than about the 1990s, though older reference to it would be interesting.
In his 1985 guidebook Elias Valiña mentions the custom of placing a stone on the heap. He says nothing about bringing one from home or giving any special mystical significance or personal meaning to the stone itself.
 
The first edition came out in 2003 and has become the go-to-guide for many pilgrims over the years. It is shipping with a Pilgrim Passport (Credential) from the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela.
a link to a source (Matías Rodríguez, Historia de Astorga, p. 167) that contains the relevant quote from the document of 1103
While the book is not available online - and anyway, the original document isn't online - I see now that there is another relevant link to an article published in January 2000. The title loosely translates as The Caminos to Galicia, Asturica de Potata and Herman Künig in an only partly ironic mishmash.

I've not yet struggled through the text which is in Spanish but I think it is about marking of borders and territorial possessions in the area. It has a drawing of the location of both the Cruz de Ferro pile of stones and the other one nearby. "Mishmash" is imo a good description of what's written today about the historical background of the site and about any traditions supposedly connected to it. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against modern rituals as such. I just labour against the claim that they are old or even ancient when they aren't. :cool:

The article is on Dialnet: Los caminos a Galicia, Astúrica de Potata, y Herman Künig, en una mezcolanza sólo a medias irónica. Otro monticulo de piedras means other pile of rocks.
Heaps of stones near Foncebadon.jpg
 
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In his 1985 guidebook Elias Valiña mentions the custom of placing a stone on the heap. He says nothing about bringing one from home or giving any special mystical significance or personal meaning to the stone itself.
It is known that it was a custom of seasonal workers who travelled from Galicia to Castilla y Leon: apparently they prayed for a safe return and threw a stone on the pile - around 19th and 20th century.

One report, just a single one, by a pilgrim who travelled to Santiago between 1100 and say 1700 who brought a stone from home and left it there would do. A single one. Any language would do although it would be most likely Dutch, Italian or some kind of German, also Spanish, because most of the medieval and later narratives about a pilgrimage to Santiago and known to us are written in these languages.
 
"Mishmash" is imo a good description of what's written today about the historical background of the site and about any traditions supposedly connected to it. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against modern rituals as such. I just labour against the claim that they are old or even ancient when they aren't. :cool:
The need to rationalize new rituals as older than they are seems quite common as far as the Camino Francés is concerned. IMO it's part of the Disney-fiction of something that was once quite simple. New rituals accrete where none were there before, fuelled by the uncritical passing down of hearsay.

In the modern Camino Era, first Shirley or Paolo said it, or Brierley sad it, or it was in The Way, Now it's the avalanche of vlogs blogs and YouTube videos. You may be fighting a losing battle, @Kathar1na, but I cheer you on anyway. Fact is worth fighting for.
 
In the modern Camino Era, first Shirley or Paolo said it, or Brierley sad it, or it was in The Way, Now it's the avalanche of vlogs blogs and YouTube videos.
It wasn't them. You are giving them way too much credit. 😊

One thing I'd just love to know is who J.M.S. is or was. Someone had placed a stone on the Cruz de Ferro site with an "oración", a prayer. I think that it's on original creation and that the stone is gone now - at least I looked for it and could not find it. I tried to find out more about it but no luck. I think one of the first quotations was in a popular German guidebook. I contacted the author but she had no idea where and when it originated - she said that she had just copied it from a stone. So if anyone knows more about it ....! It is, of course, immortalised in Sheen's The Way movie as we all know.

Oracion Cruz Hierro jms.jpg
 
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Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against modern rituals as such. I just labour against the claim that they are old or even ancient when they aren't. :cool:

The need to rationalize new rituals as older than they are seems quite common as far as the Camino Francés is concerned. IMO it's part of the Disney-fiction of something that was once quite simple. New rituals accrete where none were there before, fuelled by the uncritical passing down of hearsay.
I think the shell ceremony so popular with pilgrim chapters in the US and Canada is a good example. Several times I have read articles on websites describing it as an ancient medieval ritual but it is in fact a very recent innovation. Why the need to justify something by false claims to antiquity? Is it not enough that the ritual has its own defined purpose and meaning?
 
This may upset some people. The Cruz de Ferro is an iconic site and it has become a tradition to leave a stone or other memento, often in memory of someone who has passed away, on the mound surrounding the cross. This has been going on for many years now. However, the mound does not seem to be getting bigger. I saw a reference in one post to the council cleaning the actual cross itself, but do they also do something to prevent the huge pile of stones and other mementoes getting out of control? The rumour I have heard is that the council send in a digger and a truck to cart them away. Is this true? Does anyone know?

I looked through past threads, but can see no mention of this issue.
I wonder what people thought was happening to all of those rocks.
 
The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
I wonder what people thought was happening to all of those rocks.
Actually, most Pilgrims who leave a rock or other treasure do not return for a year or so.
They probably would not be aware of changes since they last passed by.

Of course, serial pilgrims may return more often but are less likely to continue the rock thing or they are aware that the rocks are maintained.
 
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See post #10 from henrythedog in this thread.

¨I’ve passed the Cruz five or six times, mostly when the road-menders shovels have recycled the contributions to improve the local infrastructure. ¨
I should perhaps clarify; as I am prone to exaggeration and was quoted earlier. I’ve passed the Cruz at least five or six times; and twice have seen the heap of stones, momentos and human remains being reduced by the the local authorities with a loading-shovel. I’m not really sure that the material ends up filling potholes; but I’m equally certain it doesn’t end up in a glass-case on consecrated ground.

The detail in the many contributions above is really excellent.
 
There is an online story according to which Tomás from Manjarín claims that the current heap of stones was created by diggers when the current road was built and that the original mound was elsewhere (perhaps just a few metres away?).
I won't guarantee for the veracity and accuracy of this story but I now know again where I must have read it: in the DE Wikipedia article about the Cruz de Ferro and on the discussion page of the article. Translated into English:

According to the hospitalero, Tomás, of the Manjarín pilgrim albergue, the cairn was heaped up along the road in the 1950s to make the site more accessible to bus tourists. The original [...] cairn is said to be 300 metres off the road.
When asked on the discussion page to provide the source for this claim:

I don't know the exact location, I got the information from the pilgrims' guide of the Saint James association [Jakobusgesellschaft] in Paderborn/Germany. They got the information from Tomás (Manjarín), who in turn has it from conversations with the local population.
I just thought the info might be quite interesting. I would have liked to have known (only found out later), then I might have looked for the original pile.
 
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I didn't take any photos on my 1990 Camino but my vague recollection is that the Cruz was much more exposed than it is now and I have no memory of it being surrounded by trees
There is an interesting article about the area of Foncebadon that was published in 1983, only seven years before you walked. Pilgrims or the Camino de Santiago are not mentioned, neither as "part of the landscape" nor as an economic factor.

The title (translated) says that elderly people and 'hippies' are the only inhabitants of the dead villages of this mountainous area. That the emigration to other parts of Spain had started in the mid-1960s shortly after the reforestation that sounded the "final death" knell for their way of making a (very meagre) living because their pastures disappeared with it. That often the only inhabitants are an elderly couple or a Moroccan or Portuguese shepherd who occasionally keeps other people's livestock herds (with their owner now living in Madrid or in Barcelona). That several colonies of hippies installed themselves from 1976 onwards in the area. That a livestock company from Extremadura used to transport a flock of more than a hundred sheep to Manjarín at the beginning of May for grazing during the summer months and returned them to Extremadura in October.

Of course we all know that Foncebadon is the model of a village that has been revived. This cannot be said for numerous other villages to the right and left of the Camino trail in this area of the Cruz de Ferro. These villages remain empty and have even disappeared already from current maps.

Especially the second photo in #23 of the Cruz site with the sheep and the quite different ground around it and the short sequence in the video in #49 with what I see as smartly dressed children walking behind or through a flock of sheep, perhaps on their way to school or church, must be an echo of those times.

 
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The need to rationalize new rituals as older than they are seems quite common as far as the Camino Francés is concerned. IMO it's part of the Disney-fiction of something that was once quite simple. New rituals accrete where none were there before, fuelled by the uncritical passing down of hearsay.

In the modern Camino Era, first Shirley or Paolo said it, or Brierley sad it, or it was in The Way, Now it's the avalanche of vlogs blogs and YouTube videos. You may be fighting a losing battle, @Kathar1na, but I cheer you on anyway. Fact is worth fighting for.
Spoil sport.
 
I just thought the info might be quite interesting. I would have liked to have known (only found out later), then I might have looked for the original pile.
The original [...] cairn is said to be 300 metres off the road.
It would be interesting to know where that is.
On GoogleMaps there's somethoing that looks like a huge pile of rocks, about 800m past and 150m South of the road. When you zoom in it's clear that there's a path going directly there.

On OSMand, that place is indicated as a locality, called Prado Moroco
(Moroccan meadow?). Not much help there.

So I went to the Spanish Geological Survey map, thinking it would show something but no, but it was at least interesting. All those rocks we stumble on as we head down to El Acebo? Cambrian-Ordovician - really old.

But nothing about alternative humiderros.
I have to say there's a lot of mythology out there posing as fact, and it's a pity that people are swallowing it whole, without question.
 
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Could possibly be blackberry field.
I think that some may not have realised that this is a serious theory.

I live in a place called the Mont des Mules -- and whilst here the switch from Late Latin to Old French made r > l , it still means Blackberry Hill.

Similar words are NOT systematically from Latin maurus = black, dark (sometimes to start with they're from the Latin for "wall") ; but "moroccan" or "maghrebi" makes no sense.
 
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An interesting discussion, thank you all.
What happened to the scheme I read about a few years ago to landscape the area, build toilets coach parks, and an interpretation centre etc? I think it was going to be funded from outside Spain.
 
An interesting discussion, thank you all.
What happened to the scheme I read about a few years ago to landscape the area, build toilets coach parks, and an interpretation centre etc? I think it was going to be funded from outside Spain.

At Cruz de Ferro , you mean?

Well, let us hope that never will happen. Funded from outside Spain says enough. Even if is well meant ( and I do not doubt that ) I see more problems arising than the current debris and ugliness.
Spain is well equipped to handle these issues themself.

The foreign organisations and fundraisers should IMHO promote the lesser known Caminos and make future pilgrims more aware about how to behave on a Camino.
 
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An interesting discussion, thank you all.
What happened to the scheme I read about a few years ago to landscape the area, build toilets coach parks, and an interpretation centre etc? I think it was going to be funded from outside Spain.
I cannot see that the Comisión Territorial de Patrimonio de Castilla y León has approved the project, but in 2022 it approved some simple chapel restoration and general clean-up work of the area (which seemed to have been done when I passed through in late Autumn last year).
 
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I recently saw a documentary from the 1980's about two guys doing the camino from France (via Roncesvalles!) in 1984, by bicycle.

That documentary included footage of the cruz de ferro. It was already a huge pile of stones back then, and apparently already a point of significance.

That was interesting to me, because I often read that it's a new tradition. But 1984 was surely before the camino had been "revived", and it seemed of importance to the two bicigrinos, if I recall correctly. So I guess that pile of stones has been more than just that for pilgrims at least for a bit longer than the 1990s?

And even if it's a newer tradition. All traditions start at one point. If people wouldn't leave rubbish up there, but only a tiny pebble, I guess it wouldn't be a problem.
 
I solemnly placed my tiny stone from home at the foot of the cross and said a heartfelt prayer for something very important to me. I was thankful to be alone and actually liked noticing the laminated photos and little poems left there. Most seemed to represent loss and grieving, which I thought was very touching. I'm glad the times I was there in 2015 and 2017 that I was unaware of the clean up efforts, although I can see the need to occasionally do it.
 
At Cruz de Ferro , you mean?

Well, let us hope that never will happen. Funded from outside Spain says enough. Even if is well meant ( and I do not doubt that ) I see more problems arising than the current debris and ugliness.
Spain is well equipped to handle these issues themself.

The foreign organisations and fundraisers should IMHO promote the lesser known Caminos and make future pilgrims more aware about how to behave on a Camino.
Yes. there was a story at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020, posted in a thread here by @Bradypus and @SYates "Local news sites have reported on plans to landscape the area around the Cruz de Ferro and add new toilet facilities and parking area. A project by the local authorities to be funded by a donation from an anonymous American pilgrim." Like you I hope this has gone away, but I remember, last time I was there, overhearing it being discussed in a cafe in El Acebo between an American couple and some local Spaniards (officials?).
 
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The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
I'm glad the times I was there in 2015 and 2017 that I was unaware of the clean up efforts, although I can see the need to occasionally do it.
I'm unsure of exactly when the clean-up efforts began to be necessary, back in the day people just placed a small ordinary pebble or stone, and nothing else.

I seem to remember that the other sorts of "mementoes" (or "litter") existed only in very small quantity in 2005.
 
The Amigos Association from Astorga goes up there every spring and does a big litter cleanup, and the highway maintenance crews come and empty the dumpster containers every couple of weeks. Every three years or so they bring a big earth mover in and shovel the stones back away from the road.
There was indeed a big plan to "improve" the Cruz de Ferro a few years ago, and later on a plan to erect a huge line of wind turbines that would dwarf the cruz itself... the mayor of the district is extremely fond of concrete (he's the one who paved the main street at Foncebadon, and only later "realized" that was a huge violation of UNESCO patrimonial law.) Happily, local environmental groups, the Amigos, and FICS kicked up a fuss about these "improvements" while they were still in the planning stages, and so far, blocked their development.
THe Cruz de Ferro is very old, it's a heritage left us by our ancestors. It's up to all of us to protect these invaluable things.
 
I suspect some people would happily stand on an altar and take a selfie next to a crucifix, maybe even dig up a grave and do the same. There are lots of weird people in the world. ;)

I mentioned in the other thread that I saw someone spread the contents of an urn on the rock pile back in 2017. So I guess that person is immortalised in the pile, the roads and the environment of the camino.
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the difference between the poles before 1999 and after 1999.

The pole at the Cruz de Ferro is a telephone mast.

According to the eye witness who was there when it was erected it was donated to or by Jato ("donado por Jato"). The previous pole had been roble - oak wood.
 
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It piqued my interest to read a first-hand report from someone who walked from France to Santiago in 1989. Quite rare. Amazon offered a copy for a handful of euros and I think I'll enjoy reading it.

Below is a quote from page 124 (translated) of how the Cruz de Ferro site presented itself to someone who didn't know that one day there will be a Camino de Santiago forum and Camino YouTube videos and dozens if not hundreds of Camino blogs and books.

Foncebadon was still deserted except for one woman and her son who live from a bit of animal husbandry; the military base had not yet been closed down and heavy artillery thunders in the distance; the chapel (unused except for an annual folkloristic event) had already been added to the scene; the self-acclaimed Templar had not yet arrived at Manjarín; no mention of a tradition of bringing stones let alone other items from home or traces of such a ritual that he knew of or noticed.

Before Manjarin, which is completely deserted, stands a curious monument. An iron cross planted at the end of a rickety trunk which is stuck on top of a pile of stones about ten metres high. I sit down in the shade of the little chapel, a short distance away, to take a break.
Avant Manjarin, complètement dépeuplé, se dresse un curieux monument. Une croix de fer plantée à l'extrémité d'un tronc rachitique, lui-même fiché au sommet d'un tas de pierres d'une dizaine de mètres de haut. Je m'assoie à l'ombre de la petite chapelle, à deux pas de là, le temps d'une pause.
Barely 34 years ago but it sounds like another time and age ...
 
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@Bradypus.....How did your experience in 1990 compare with the description in @Kathar1na post #71, above?
You were there just a year later.
It was a very solitary experience. No other pilgrims there. A simple pile of stones around the post. No other mementos. My vague recollection is that the Cruz then was not surrounded by trees - I remember being surprised by that in 2016. I do remember Foncebadon being almost completely abandoned and falling into ruins. The change there is the most remarkable transformation anywhere on the Camino Frances.
 
The transformation and paving of the Heritage Site of Foncebadon is the most disappointing thing I have witnessed anywhere in the name of commercial gain.

Sadly, those who missed this village before really did miss a historic site.
 
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The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
the transformation and paving of the Heritage Site of Foncebadon is the most disappointing thing I have witnessed anywhere in the name of commercial gain.

Sadly, those who missed this village before really did miss a historic site.
I walked in the village in 2015. It seemed mostly quirky in a hippie-ish sort of way and was very intriguing looking; I liked its uniqueness, like stepping back in the late 60's or 70's. We stopped in for an orange juice before leaving the "town". I think it looked like some construction work was being done, but I wasn't sure what exactly. It was quiet and no one was working on it; definitely nothing was completed.
 
It piqued my interest to read a first-hand report from someone who walked from France to Santiago in 1989. Quite rare. Amazon offered a copy for a handful of euros and I think I'll enjoy reading it.
That was the year of my first Camino, although I started in Roncesvalles.

You may also like A Hug for the Apostle by Laurie Dennett, an account of her walk from France to Santiago a bit earlier in the 80s.
 
The transformation and paving of the Heritage Site of Foncebadon is the most disappointing thing I have witnessed anywhere in the name of commercial gain.

Sadly, those who missed this village before really did miss a historic site.
Just me, but personally I prefer a living village to a collection of ruined buildings.
 
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Just me, but personally I prefer a living village to a collection of ruined buildings.

The destruction of the historic buildings and the paving of the whole town along with turning the area into a tourist attraction represents the loss that many of us feel about the Camino. It is simply not the same experience.
The astounding changes to Foncebadon are a visual reminder of how the commercialization and marketing have forever altered the Camino Frances and is eating away at many of the others.

It is a real thing to many of us and we are saddened.
If you were not there earlier you probably have no concept of what and why we continue to lament the way things are now.:(
(added: Not particularly aimed at @JabbaPappa...but to those who continue to push that the changes are not a big deal)
 
The destruction of the historic buildings
I'm sorry, but I've seen the changes since the early 1990s, and they are not "destruction" but rebuilding and renewal.

I found it to be a very strange place in the 2000s, and rather unnatural -- but as it is now, locals have moved back there, peasants and so on, and the village is alive again.
and the paving of the whole town along with turning the area into a tourist attraction
Honestly, I think that keeping the village in a deliberate state of ruin for some aesthetic benefit for some foreign pilgrims would have been a genuine touristification.

Passing through Manjarin last year, I was delighted to see that this village too is starting to show signs of renewal beyond just Tomás. There are people living there now.
commercialization and marketing
Sorry, but I doubt that the new permanent inhabitants of the village living their day-to-day lives are much concerned with commercialization and marketing.
If you were not there earlier you probably have no concept of what and why we continue to lament the way things are now.:(
I understand your nostalgia, but first time I walked through there was in 1994, and I found it to be bleak, sad, abandoned, and unhappy. I met the son at one point, either walking there or hitching back, and he was quite miserable about what he supposed was the impending death of the pueblo.

The dogs barked at me, the cats hissed, but I could not blame them.

Supposing that the Camino and the pueblos along the Way should remain preserved in the aspic of some idealised past experiences is a non-starter.

We move forward in time and space and in Faith -- and so does the Way.
 
It is obvious we disagree in all areas of the discussion.

I recall the village starting in March 2009 and then for several following years until the "remodel".
The "new inhabitants" of the village are mostly those who brought the commercialization and marketing with them.

So be it.....the clock will not be turned back.
 
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It is obvious we disagree in all areas of the discussion.

I recall the village starting in March 2009 and then for several following years until the "remodel".
I disliked the place very much in the 2000s.
The "new inhabitants" of the village are mostly those who brought the commercialization and marketing with them.
I likely had a very different perspective walking through there towards France last year, and it is quite clear that the houses at the lower end of the village are inhabited by normal locals.

The businesses in the centre of the village are what they are, but the "hippy community" stuff of the 2000s was most definitely not my cup of tea, and in my view denatured the place far more than anything that's there today.

I do regret the vanishing of the simple bar/bakery/épicerie that was there in the 2010s ...
 
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It is obvious we disagree in all areas of the discussion.

I recall the village starting in March 2009 and then for several following years until the "remodel".
The "new inhabitants" of the village are mostly those who brought the commercialization and marketing with them.

So be it.....the clock will not be turned back.


Locals and new inhabitants in equal measure. And who can blame them to earn some money in providing for pilgrims and tourists.
And it is a low key affair surely. You can't compare this small town revival with the gentrification of former working class neighbourhoods in cities like Paris or London.
With all due respect for the selfproviding hippy but I believe an older person in such a small village prefers the opening of a new tienda to a donativo stand from that lovely hippy.
 
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'Sinteresting innit. The thread started around the Cruz Ferro and the evolution of that place from just a high (as in height) point on the trail to some quasi-shrine - depository for angst and ashes and twee memoria. Now claimed as sacred or profane depending on your bent. Just do an image search on Godgle or any other engine for Cruz de Ferro and watch your computer crashhhhh

Foncebadon. Now there's a tale. I'll trust @Rebekah Scott will forgive me quoting her here:

"Last summer, up at Foncebadon, I heard some handsome American pilgrims discussing that former ghost town brought back to life in the past 20 years. “This place is great! We did this. It’s our pilgrim money that brought this here,” one of them said. “Someone ought to invest in some nice paving, signage, marketing. Some safety measures, maybe. Imagine what some decent branding could do up here.”

From this thread, well worth the time: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/the-future-of-camino-hospitality.46772/

Isn't what has happened to the Cruz what has happened to Foncebadon. It's a sale point; it's a feathered hook; it's everything you may have imagined the Camino would, or wouldn't, be. So, at the Cruz drop your rock, tie your flag, scatter Mum. When you get to Foncebadon you can grab your triple mocha soy latte and a multi-seed vegan flapjack and be proud that you helped to preserve rural Spain.

For me, none of this matters. No, honestly it really doesn't matter. "Nothing to see here. Move along, move along". There are a thousand roads to Santiago. Some pass through Disneyland, some don't. The roads we choose are ours and ours alone. And, if at the Cruz I see a Pilgrim on their knees I'll try to give them the space they've earnt....
 
When you get to Foncebadon you can grab your triple mocha soy latte and a multi-seed vegan flapjack
eh, for me last time it was a barely acceptable microwave-heated menú del dia, though the tinto was OK, dessert was good, and the Associación Albergue was a pure delight !!

I *did* manage to just scrape my necessary litro de cerveza, for the road, in the morning !! (though only because I had exact change, and was in the right place at the right time, despite the lovely hospitalero doing all in his power to delay my departure -- curse his coffees and biscuits !!)
 
Georgiana Goddard King is mentioned in another current thread which caused me to look up again her description (if any) of the Cruz de Ferro site in her book The Way of Saint James Volume 2. Goddard King was a specialist in medieval history, especially for Spain, and explored the Way of Saint James in Spain and what was then known about its history. The book was published in 1920. She was also a photographer. She is familiar with older authors who wrote about the Road and frequently quotes them where relevant.

She makes no mention of a tradition of pilgrims bringing stones from home. She does not even mention that the Iron cross stands on a huge heap of stones. Below are some relevant passages. Btw, Francisco is a local from Ponferrada who provided the mules for the journey and accompanied her party on this section of her journeys; they travelled eastwards from Ponferrada to Astorga:

The road [leaving Molinaseca] was the loneliest ever, a few carts, drawn by small black oxen, creaking on the track that was sometimes gullied clay, sometimes rolling stones but chiefly living rock deep-furrowed [...]. At Riego [de Ambros], the earthen-coloured houses stood, their thick thatch overgrown with moss and stone-crop, wavering in and out of the line of the street [...]. The houses of Manjardin were slated, bright with flat patches of stone-crop [...]. By now we were high on the moor, following along the vast side of the range, among white heather and acrid juniper and fragrant rosemary [...]. Scrub oak was sparse here, and pines we saw but rarely throughout the day [...]​

The Port [mountain pass] is not like a Swiss col, a sharp scramble up and a steep descent, but wide and heaving like a strait in the sea: the road turns a little, and rises and falls again [...] Miles ahead, Francisco pointed out the cross that stood in the Port and anon, by straining eyes we saw, where the sharp crests dipped, the thin line of the iron cross, like a semaphore station. [...] We lunched in the town of Foncebadón, sitting on a bench, at a table, under the vaulted entrance to a stable.
Despite ample quotes from earlier authors who wrote about this Monte Irago area, its donations, its hospitals, and its churches and despite her vivid description of landscapes and monuments and people, this is all there was to say of the Cruz de Ferro. No mention of stones, of any known traditions, no references to it being a holy place or a sanctuary or a place of special interest.

I was excited to see that there is a photo of The Pass of Rabanal in this book. Alas, her photo shows what I think is the main street of Foncebadon at the time and some houses. BTW, I think contemporary pilgrims are quite happy that the street is not, and was not in previous decades, as authentic as it was around 1920. :cool:
 
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BTW, I think contemporary pilgrims are quite happy that the street is not, and was not in previous decades, as authentic as it was around 1920. :cool:
I'm not so sure about that. This fairly-contemporary pilgrim walked up that street again in January this year. I read through that section of Goddard King's book yesterday and saw the photo which I posted on another thread. When I first saw Foncebadon in summer 1990 most of the buildings had less roof than that and no occupants but otherwise it looked remarkably similar to the photo and description from 1920. Nothing in Foncebadon was open when I passed through there in January this year - at least Goddard King was able to find some food there. :cool: It is certainly far smarter these days but personally I preferred the very atmospheric ghost town.
 
It is certainly far smarter these days but personally I preferred the very atmospheric ghost town.
I am aware of the issue of the road surface. 2023 may be worse than 2015 and 1990 was, at least 2023 is aesthetically less pleasing to my eyes than what they had previously but comparing photos I'd say it was much worse in 1920 - to quote G.G.K.: There a brook trickled and dripped down the chief street, dammed at one place and another to form a pool under which old women washed rags.

I was just amusing myself a little with thinking about what is authentic. When there was this recent issue I saw a proposal to use cobble stones instead of what there is now. A neat cobble stone street looks certainly olde worlde but authentic? I doubt that there ever was a neat cobble stone street in Foncebadon, not even in the Middle Ages. :cool:
 
am aware of the issue of the road surface. 2023 may be worse than 2015 and 1990 was, at least 2023 is aesthetically less pleasing to my eyes than what they had previously but comparing photos I'd say it was much worse in 1920 - to quote G.G.K.: There a brook trickled and dripped down the chief street, dammed at one place and another to form a pool under which old women washed rags.
25 January 2023

1690198056030.png

Sometime before 1920
1690198237802.png
 
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This thread is therapy!
It is 115/46 in Arizona and this photo transports me to a much cooler place!
It was late March 2012, the wind was howling which influenced our decision to throw our sacred/special rocks at the base, mutter our simple prayers and remain in single file until El Acebo.
The hardest of times create the greatest memories.
 

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It's partly because it's the highest point on the Camino Francés, right? But how long has humankind been able to measure altitude, does anyone know?
 
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It's partly because it's the highest point on the Camino Francés, right?
Officially yes, because despite the tale of the yellow arrows, the official path is the tarmac one.

There are points on the walking trail nearby that are actually a bit higher, as was clearer to me last year walking towards France rather than the "normal" way. Going that way, you reach a certain high point where upwards ends, then gently downwards towards the Cruz ; this higher point is less noticeable if you're walking over the pass towards Compostela, due to the slight ups and downs of that trail section.

But on tarmac, if on a bike or if snow makes the trail impracticable etc, then yes it's the high point.
 
It's partly because it's the highest point on the Camino Francés, right? But how long has humankind been able to measure altitude, does anyone know?
It's in a col between two peaks. Its elevation is at about 1,500 meters according to Open Street Maps' cycling layer. Click map for enlargement.
Screenshot_20230729-063235.png

O Cebreiro's elevation is 1,330 meters.
 
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