Clarification needed: "cruzada contra la hospitalidad tradicional"

[Preshadon]

Is there a movement in Spain to change the alberque system? I hope I'm confused because of my limitations in understanding Spanish, but I came across the following in the Gronze.com web site:

"Asunto preocupante en grado sumo es el de la cruzada contra la hospitalidad tradicional, aunque tanto en el Camino Francés como en el Camino Norte parece que están surgiendo movimientos, en forma de asociaciones, de auto-defensa. Pronto saldrá la legislación al respecto en Euzkadi, Asturias y Castilla y León, por lo que enseguida sabremos si hay paz o barricadas."
Here is the link: https://www.gronze.com/articulos/camino-santiago-predicciones-para-2018-14649

MY translation of the above is: "An issue that is very worrisome is the crusade against traditional hospitality, although, as much on the Camino Frances as on the Camino Norte, it appears that there are movements developing in the forms of associations and of self-defense. Soon there will be legislation on this regard in Euzkadi, Asturias and Castilla y Leon, by which soon we will know if there will be peace or barricades."

 

[C clearly]

It might also be part of the ongoing debate about whether "traditional" albergues should meet some or all modern standards of safety and accommodation. There are valid arguments on both sides, and compromises to be made (Should they all provide sheets? How often should they be washed? Can they lock people inside for the night?)

These debates happens all the time with matters of public policy and regulation.

 

[Momonne]

This is not « ramblings »but a reference to the announced/proposed new rules that would require albergues, I believe it is donativos in particular, to offer certain services more in line with those of hotels and pensiones, such as having fully made, and laundered daily, beds. This would of course increase the cost of running donativos, and people fear would force them to close.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

There are such laws being considered. So far, they don´t change the standing rules re: traditional donativo places, but there is lots of vague language that could allow for stricter enforcement in later years.
It´s said that private albergue owners are backing the changes, to force out their competition and take every pilgrim dollar for themselves. But others say it´s a much-needed gut-check for little places that have become run-down and scruffy over the years. There is a small non-profit association in Castilla y Leon that´s meeting to hash the rumors from facts. It´s hard going, because lawmaking isn´t so transparent in Spain as in some other places, and it´s very easy to step on the wrong toes when you work in the same town with businessmen who often are also city councilmen!

 

[Lirsy]

This is a VERY complicated issue

From the point of view of the pilgrims you may find, at least, two different opinions:

• Pilgrims that like better the old style, that meaning donation, no so many comfort facilities, etc.
• Pilgrims more on the side or renewing the style and going for more ensure comfort, even if this mean going to more commercial albergues.

From the point of view of the tax authorities, the donation albergues are tax free .... what they think is REALLY BAD!!!!

From the point of view of the existing commercial facilities (albergues, hotels, etc.), donation albergues are an unfair competitors.

From the point of view of .... and here you can include a lot of other collectives (local authorities, religious authorities, etc.)

Taking into consideration that the Camino is not only a massive cultural fact but a very important economic fact, it is easy to imagine how hard is the fight among all those groups of interest.

From my own point of view, I am absolutely in favor of the donation albergues, even if this means a decrease in the comfort. To be clear, decrease in comfort does not mean that the albergues don´t have to fulfill some minimum health & safety requirements which have to be compulsory.

In the same way I am absolutely in favor of the volunteer ¨hospitaleros¨ instead of the professional ones.

I would say that the biggest threat to the donation albergues are:

• The ¨pilgrims¨that think that donation = Free. I have seen people leaving 20 cents for dinner + lodging + washing clothes + breakfast. This would be OK if you really only have 20 cents, but when you are wealthy, this attitude is just damaging all other pilgrims (and in my opinion also to yourself).

Buen Camino & Ultreia!!

 

[Momonne]

In the same way I am absolutely in favor of the volunteer ¨hospitaleros¨ instead of the professional ones.

The problem with volunteer hospies is when they end up being foreigners on holiday working for private albergues who offer them a bed and meals in exchange for work that could/should have been gpayed employment for locals.

Give me all the volunteer hospies in the world for donativos, foreign or not, but if you are running a Camino business, pay your staff. Staff should be part of the cost of doing business, part of your business plan, like your mortgage and utilities.

 

[Lirsy]

Hi Momonne,

What you said is partially right, as are all the different points of view I mentioned (even the ones I defend!! ).

I agree in that if you have a Camino business you have to pay your staff, social insurance, taxes, etc. In what I disagree is that a donativo albergue is a business. In my consideration it is just a non lucrative service. And I will accept forehand that many people may mount one of those donativo albergues just as a business (I already mentioned that it is a VERY difficult problem to evaluate).

Most of the volunteers working in the Camino are professionals: doctors, engineers, public servants, businessmen, etc... that are dedicating half of their holidays to help pilgrims in the Camino, most of them are Spanish and they work without any kind of compensation. Hospitalero is a work that gives you very few freedom to do whatever you might like to do (apart of helping the pilgrims), as far as along the morning you have to prepare everything for the new pilgrims and later on you have to be there to receive and help them. Believe me, most of the people that works as volunteer are not only giving their time for free but also expending money from their own pockets (travel expenses, small things needed at the albergue, etc).

Considering a lodging fee of 5 Euro (I put 5 bc this is what the law indicates as the maximum fee you can charge for the lodging and still being considered as donation), do you think that with 5 Euro/Pilgrim you might obtain any profit? After paying all the maintenance, electricity, heating system, etc..? Furthermore, most commercial albergues close during the winter just because with few pilgrims and an important cost for heating they are not winning any money in the time that most donativo albergues remain open all along the winter, no mater the cost is higher and the incomes are smaller.

I keep my opinion in favor of the donativo albergues. For sure I am not against the commercial ones!!

I think that both are two different kind of establishments and that both have to be regulated, but with different rules. The commercial albergues have to be regulated as hostels and the donation albergues have to count with a regulation that ensure the safety of the installations but with some very minimum requirements for comfort (I know a VERY nice religious donation albergue in which you sleep just in the floor).

Sorry for doing this SO long!!!! je je

Buen Camino & Ultreia!!

 

[Momonne]

Lirsy,

thank you for you thoughtful and long reply.

Please let me say that I certainly am not agains real donativos getting help from volunteers. Buy real donativos I mean the ones run by towns, associations, nuns and monks, and I hooe I am not forgetting other types.

My issue is with the foreign owned hotel that sets aside a section of its business as a donativo albergue (at least one on the Norte fits that description). Or the one who is privately owned by a local who suggests a 10€ donation (lots of these on the Primitivo).

I find the information you gove about 5€being the legal limit one can ask for and still be considered a donativo. Is this new? And how does this jive with "suggested donations" of 10€.

As for hopsy work, thwre is no doubt some have to work very hard, but let´s not forget that in many albeegues basic maintenance is being done by, thank goodness, paid local staff, the hospy providing a smil, stamping a credencial, but that´s a whole other discussion, and frankly I don´t care one bit if one volunteers in or or the other type. I just mind when profit making enterprises being in foreigners to workmfor free instead of paying a local worker.

If one wants to own an albergue, well good for them. But they don´t have to keep prices at 5€ or 10€, they can charge whatever they want and need to to make their business profitable, and ceetainly not on the backs of locals who are replaced by unpaid, workers (wonder what customs would havw to say of foreogn hospies feom outide the EU actually told the truth about their stay when coming into the country).;

It´s not as if the Camino clientele these days is not paying for cafe con leche, beer, red wine, pilgrim menu and the mochilero. Let the real donativos be just that, with all of the volunteer traditional hospitality that entails and let the privat business peopke go after a different segment, one that will pay the true cost ofmtheir accomodations. If you can onky make your business work by skirting around laws in order not to pay the employees you require, then perhaps you should´nt be in that business.

 

[Lirsy]

Hi Momonne,

The legal limit of requesting 5 euros as lodging fee, t be consider as donation, is in vigor, at least in Castilla y Leon. I am not sure about other communities, but probably it is the same ... I am not sure as I said.

This about suggesting 10 Euros ... OK, in theory you can do it, it is not illegal, but I think it goes absolutely against the spirit of the donation albergues. In most donation albergues, what you find is an unattended box in which you leave whatever you want and no one will ever know how much you left there.

For sure there is a lot of people that abuse of the pilgrims with those donation. I remember one guy that was giving fruit for donation in the camino frances. He had a strong discussion with a pilgrim because she left 3 euros for one banana!!! If I was able I would take this guy out of the camino for ever!!!

I still keep considering as very desirable the existence of donation albergues organized by a private people, as far as they keep the spirit of the donation (you provide a free service to everyone and if the pilgrim wish to compensate you in any way it is OK and if not it still keep being OK .... this compensation remains at the good will and possibilities of the pilgrim, without any kind of pressure).

Buen Camino & Ultreia!!!

 

[HedaP]

I only know the CF and bow to the greater knowledge above, especially from the locals or regular vollies. Shoot me down if I am wrong but I would like to add that the municipals (my favs) fall between the few remaining donativos and the private albergues. Some of them also rely on volunteers. I walked several days with a Spanish couple who were heading for Burgos to do a two week volunteer placement at the big municipal there. As a general rule the municipals charge extremely reasonable prices, sometimes as little as 5 or 6 euros, and offer a basic but perfectly comfortable level of service. I was constantly amazed by the quality and cleanliness of the facilities and the kindness of the hospitaleros. I kept trying to do sums in my head about how some of these places could break even given the seasonal nature of the camino and the cost of building maintenance, white goods, new mattresses, cleaning, etc. etc.

Edit: I should add before everyone rushes to stay at municipals that my needs are simple. A shower, somewhere to wash my clothes and a bed, all preferrably clean or at least cleanish.

 

[Lirsy]

I also like a lot the municipal albergues. Mostly the ones managed by volunteers. When managed directly by the council the hospitalero is a public servant, normally not involved with the camino and without knowledge about it (for sure there are very remarkable exceptions!!!). On the other hand when managed by volunteers, they are always pilgrims (to have walked the camino at least once is a requirement, but most volunteers have already walked 4, 5 or more caminos) that have the knowledge and the will of helping the pilgrims (if they haven´t the will they wouldn´t be there).

As you mentioned there are very few albergues by donation out of the owned by the city hall, the church or some organization. It is really difficult for a private albergue, without any financial help to survive with donations or with these 5 euros/pilgrim. Anyhow ... still some of them remain there!!!

 

[HedaP]

I also like a lot the municipal albergues. Mostly the ones managed by volunteers. When managed directly by the council the hospitalero is a public servant, normally not involved with the camino and without knowledge about it (for sure there are very remarkable exceptions!!!). On the other hand when managed by volunteers, they are always pilgrims (to have walked the camino at least once is a requirement, but most volunteers have already walked 4, 5 or more caminos) that have the knowledge and the will of helping the pilgrims (if they haven´t the will they wouldn´t be there).

As you mentioned there are very few albergues by donation out of the owned by the city hall, the church or some organization. It is really difficult for a private albergue, without any financial help to survive with donations or with these 5 euros/pilgrim. Anyhow ... still some of them remain there!!!

I agree, the vollies were great but so too were many of the council employees though perhaps not all. And hats off to the private albergues who are donativo and/or who keep spirit of the camino alive. Those albergues are very special.

 

[Momonne]

Hi Momonne,

The legal limit of requesting 5 euros as lodging fee, t be consider as donation, is in vigor, at least in Castilla y Leon. I am not sure about other communities, but probably it is the same ... I am not sure as I said.

This about suggesting 10 Euros ... OK, in theory you can do it, it is not illegal, but I think it goes absolutely against the spirit of the donation albergues. In most donation albergues, what you find is an unattended box in which you leave whatever you want and no one will ever know how much you left there.

For sure there is a lot of people that abuse of the pilgrims with those donation. I remember one guy that was giving fruit for donation in the camino frances. He had a strong discussion with a pilgrim because she left 3 euros for one banana!!! If I was able I would take this guy out of the camino for ever!!!

I still keep considering as very desirable the existence of donation albergues organized by a private people, as far as they keep the spirit of the donation (you provide a free service to everyone and if the pilgrim wish to compensate you in any way it is OK and if not it still keep being OK .... this compensation remains at the good will and possibilities of the pilgrim, without any kind of pressure).

Buen Camino & Ultreia!!!

Absolutely agree with you on all counts. Although perhaps I am more concerned about pilgrims taking advantage of the Camino (demanding, trashing, not contributing and expecting dismal prices) than locals taking advantage of us. And thank for you for the information on the 5€ rules in Leon y Castilla.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I live in Castilla y Leon and have been involved with donativo albergues here for many years. This is the first I have heard about a 5 Euro rule. Can you please point me to the CyL law that defines this?

 

[Lirsy]

Sorry but I can´t. They told me about that in the albergue Las Carbajalas in Leon.

To be specific, what they told me is that you can establish a lodging fee up to 5 Euros and still being considered as donation. If you establish 6 or more then you are a commercial albergue.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

That is a popular belief, I have heard similar "rules" that use the number of beds as the standard. I have combed through the laws on the books and talked to lawyers, hospis, and other dueños, but no actual rule can ever be produced. Perhaps that is why they want to create one!

 

[Momonne]

Thank you for clarifying that, I also was curious.

What I wonder is if there is a tax incentive of somesort to call an albergue donativo. These « suggested donation lf 10€ » while asking (or telling) for it as one checks in are a bit strange.

 

[Lirsy]

Is not any tax incentive ... apart of not paying taxes! je je

Let´s say the idea is that you invite someone to your home and when he leaves he decide to give you some money (a tip), but the service has been free -> No tax.

 

[Momonne]

Is not any tax incentive ... apart of not paying taxes! je je

Let´s say the idea is that you invite someone to your home and when he leaves he decide to give you some money (a tip), but the service has been free -> No tax.

Except that these are not homes, they have clear signs above the front door saying « albergue » and appear in guidebooks as donativos with a suggested 10€ donations.

 

[Lirsy]

Hummm ... That is weird!! When you mentioned ¨suggested 10 Euro" I thought that the suggestion was coming from the hospitalero, no that it was in the guide.

The two guides I use never suggest any thing as donation (at least I can´t remember any). For sure I will never take an albergue in which I know forehand they will suggest me any donation

 

[domigee]

For sure I will never take an albergue in which I know forehand they will suggest me any donation

Hi Lirsy,
My first night on my first Camino, in my first ever albergue (in St Jean pdePort)... The hospitalero suggested a donation (both for the bed and for the communal meal) and I was very grateful as I had NO idea, not being able to rely on my knowledge of costs at the time.... I don't think it is necessarily bad if a certain amount is suggested, especially for brand new pilgrims.... ? (Who, like me, may not have a clue).

 

[Momonne]

I don't think it is necessarily bad if a certain amount is suggested, especially for brand new pilgrims.... ? (Who, like me, may not have a clue).

Yet a very different approach than those old traditional association albergues where the donation box is simply there, on the registration table or somewhere to the side, for people to drop in their money, often not even mentioned.

Guemes, Rates, Castilblanco de los arroyos, Casa Fernanda ... all albergues where the box is simply there, or you even have to ask for it because it’s off to the side somewhere (Casa Fernanda comes to mind as I had to ask for it in the morning and it was somewhere at the back of a counter in the kitchen). No « suggestion », just hospitality. And noone staring you down as you drop in your monies.

One is a business masquarading as a donativo, the other makes a point of simply indicating where the box is... I suppose being a « donativo » has a certain cachet which has apparently become marketable.

If a hospie hints at what you shoukd be giving, I think we have a problem with the definition of donativo. If you are told 10€ after you asked what you should give, then fine.

If one ask how much should I give, I like an answer along the lines of “what you think is fair and you can afford”. Might be much more than the 20€ or so one might pay for a bed and a pilgrim menu.

Edit: from Eroski’s page for Guemes: “

• Precio: El precio, que incluye la cena, el alojamiento y el desayuno, lo estima cada peregrino de manera libre, anónima y responsable” (The price, which includes dinner, lodging and breakfast, is determined by each pilgrim to decide in a free, anonymous and responasable way”.

 

[Tia Valeria]

We have always understood that the donation should be based on what you have used and also local prices. So the minimum donation is for a bed and wash facilities; then add something for breakfast and if there is an evening meal add something for that too. If you can afford it add a little extra to help if there is some one who genuinely cannot pay much.

 

[josephmcclain]

Is there a movement in Spain to change the alberque system? I hope I'm confused because of my limitations in understanding Spanish, but I came across the following in the Gronze.com web site:

"Asunto preocupante en grado sumo es el de la cruzada contra la hospitalidad tradicional, aunque tanto en el Camino Francés como en el Camino Norte parece que están surgiendo movimientos, en forma de asociaciones, de auto-defensa. Pronto saldrá la legislación al respecto en Euzkadi, Asturias y Castilla y León, por lo que enseguida sabremos si hay paz o barricadas."
Here is the link: https://www.gronze.com/articulos/camino-santiago-predicciones-para-2018-14649

MY translation of the above is: "An issue that is very worrisome is the crusade against traditional hospitality, although, as much on the Camino Frances as on the Camino Norte, it appears that there are movements developing in the forms of associations and of self-defense. Soon there will be legislation on this regard in Euzkadi, Asturias and Castilla y Leon, by which soon we will know if there will be peace or barricades."

Am just back, well 6 weeks ago from the Camino Frances, and saw no sign sign of anything like this. Much to the contrary. My thought is that all of these little towns, and some are very little, would not exist as well without the camino. And I think they know that. Having said that one can always run into a disgruntled Albergue owner or bar person. It’s just the way it is, in my opinion, and not a sign of trouble.

 

[Pingüigrino]

Hello all. Being myself a volunteer hospitalero would like to make clear certain points:
Each time I´m volunteering for fifteen days it costs me from 200 to 300 €. for traveling expenses, food and others. We, HOSVOL hospitaleros, do not charge a single euro for our work. Never.

We. HOSVOL volunteers NEVER suggest any kind of donation. Donativo is donativo. Period.
Not free, but if a pilgrim cant afford a single coin to the box, is welcome anyway to "our" albergues. (We are not the owner of any albergue). That said if we pilgrims can afford it, I suggest to be generous. When in pilgrimage I usually deposit more money in those boxes than in the private ones. (Somehow we need to pay for the pilgrims in need and for the exploiters)

I never heard before about that 5 € rule. And can say that the minimun to keep an albergue runing (maintenance, heating, cleaning, electricity, -really expensive in Spain- dinner and breakfast, water, garbage disposal, etc) is 7 to 8 € average. When in those albergues, please think about how much you would pay in private ones for what you are receiving, and plese if you can act accordingly.

Buen Caminto for you all, honest people.