- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2003 CF Ronces to Santiago
Hospi San Anton 2016.
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I don't know how accurate or approximate the following sketch is, I picked it up from a blog. It shows various major Roman roads and their numbering within Galicia. But of this I am fairly certain: within Galicia there is no major Roman road that would coincide with the contemporary trail of the Camino de Santiago that we follow today and that goes from Astorga via Ponferrada, Melide and Arzua to Santiago.This was a question that we asked as the Camino avoided the airport close to Santiago...and of course other places.
There is an excellent website, mainly in Spanish, called www.traianvs.net, with many details and photos of Roman roads in Spain. There is a section about Carrión de los Condes and Calzadilla de la Cueza here.the dirt road between Carrión de los Condes and Calzadilla de la Cueza is just so straight and is the most direct route that it must have been the the most direct route - here I can well imagine that there is an ancient road now covered in chip underneath this exact route
Rebekah, as you are one of the true Camino angels (having read many of your posts and listening to your interviews on podcasts) you or someone may know the answer to this. Of all the Caminos which ones are truest today to their original routes. I do not know if there is really an answer to this. I will be doing the VDLP as soon as I have an effective vaccine in me. I am really looking forward to it because I love a peaceful and long route and being a history major in college there is so much history right on that Camino. Any insights from you or anyone else would be greatly appreciated.Don is right of course. For many centuries, the Roman roads were the only real roads there were. Everything else was cattle trails, mud lanes, and watercourses. Because Romans tried to follow the path of least resistance, and their roads lasted forever, it only made sense to keep using those. Medieval roads were also "paved," and the camino still follows some of those, although they are much degraded and often now lost under asphalt or tar-and-chip laid down to cut down erosion. The knee-killing path down from Riego de Ambros to Molinaseca was for centuries The Road up and down that mountain -- you still can see the ruts in the stones cut by thousands of cart-wheels. (The Camino Vadiniense and Via de la Plata have some fabulous stretches of Roman/medieval road engineering if you have an eye for these things.)
The Camino has shifted its course many times over the years as property lines changed, new roads, bridges, inns, monasteries and hospitals were built.. you name it. Get ahold of Don Elias Valina's guides from the 1980's, and take a good look at the maps. Big shifts since then, mostly to get pilgrims off the roadsides and out of farmers' fields and yards... and to keep those thousands of feet from turning fragile pathways into slippery bogs. Oh, and to get them to the door of the local bar!
The Way is a living thing, forever evolving and changing, but always moving in the same direction. Cool.
I think that the Romans had much more interest in connecting Legio (Leon) with Cesaraugusta (Zaragoza) and Tarraco (Tarragona) than connecting it to Galia (France) because they sent the gold from Las Medulas and other mines in the NW of Hispania to Rome by boat.Spain has some amazing examples of Roman built roads that are either visible or hidden under the ground but much of the traces of even major Roman roads are gone for good. Not all of them were straight as arrows and not all of them were built in the form of several layers with a stone surface that is so familiar to us.
Below is an example of the possible course of such a major Roman road through La Rioja. You can make out the location of today's towns of Puente la Reina and Estella. Various recent authors/researchers have tried to sketch the course of the road on the basis of whatever facts are available. There is no unanimity, and as you can see, after Irache (monastery), the road may have most likely gone through Piedramillera, Aguilar de Codés and La Población, considerably to the north of both the contemporary Camino trail and the major modern national road NA-1110.
So, we who walk today, all we may have in common with both the medieval pilgrim and the Roman administrator, is that we move in the same general direction towards villages and towns in the west.
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Reading through this "translation" again, I guess it's barely comprehensible. It means that the profile of the soil stayed in the same shape for 2000 years, in the form it was shaped by Roman engineers and road workers.in this section, the infrastructure was very little altered, apart from the natural influence of time, until August 1998. At that point in time, it was decided to "repair" the road for pilgrim traffic, and this reparation lead to a "reprofiling of the platform and the ditches". There are also two photos but I don't know from when.
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This is more interesting than I thought and goes beyond "oh look old pavement stones of a Roman road"I love the Meseta!. For instance, the dirt road between Carrión de los Condes and Calzadilla de la Cueza is just so straight and is the most direct route that it must have been the the most direct route - here I can well imagine that there is an ancient road now covered in chip underneath this exact route as @Rebekah Scott suggests may be the case.
I imagine those wriggly spots developed during winter and early spring when the path meandered around wet, boggy spots. Now those fields are likely tiled to drain that wet away.appears to be a bit wriggly and was apparently straightened
the guide maps would show the route leaving the road to go up to the top of a hill, along a ridge and down again
You saw the comment before I decided to remove it because I wasn't sure and it didn't make sense and it's just photos anyway ...wriggly spots developed
I often think 'How true is the current Frances route?' There are some parts that I have walked many times and each time I have questioned 'Why this route' Did it really follow the same route through the Meseta as it does today?
I have had disagreements with others that say most of the Camino is buried under the current highways?
Then there are towns that were hardly in existence at this time such as Estella. Would one not have walked through each town to get water and provisions? Was it permitted to take short cuts through private land? Have some towns been excluded?
from my reading and walking of the different Camino ,i would have to say the Primitivo from oviedo to Lugo offers the most correct route of original Pilgrims . I know it has some of the oldest and original churches as well .Rebekah, as you are one of the true Camino angels (having read many of your posts and listening to your interviews on podcasts) you or someone may know the answer to this. Of all the Caminos which ones are truest today to their original routes. I do not know if there is really an answer to this. I will be doing the VDLP as soon as I have an effective vaccine in me. I am really looking forward to it because I love a peaceful and long route and being a history major in college there is so much history right on that Camino. Any insights from you or anyone else would be greatly appreciated.
The authenticity of many so-called pilgrim routes is open to question. Here is an example of very dubious heritage. In southern England the 'Pilgrims' Way' from Winchester to Canterbury follows the line of a hilly ridge know as the North Downs. It is a journey made famous by Geoffrey Chaucer's book The Canterbury Tales, a medieval morality tale of pilgrims on their way from London to visit Thomas A'Becket's shrine in Canterbury cathedral.
Although the route is marked clearly on British Ordnance Survey maps (in italic script denoting an ancient monument) and is waymarked as the Pilgrims' Way, it is all an elaborate hoax. In 1871 a man named Edward James was chief surveyor of the Ordnance Survey and thus Britain's top map-maker. He regarded himself as something of an amateur historian and published a pamphlet describing the route he thought medieval pilgrims would have followed to Canterbury. In his position as head of the OS he way able to make sure his route was incorporated into official maps of Surrey and Kent where it still appears. The idea gained credence when the author Hilaire Belloc romanticised the route in his own writings. There is little historic evidence to support James' invention. It is almost certain that pilgrims going to Canterbury, including those described by Chaucer, followed the old Roman road of Watling Street which ran closer to the river Thames, north of the North Downs ridge, through towns where there would have been inns to serve the travellers.
Lots of parallels here with the Camino. Twentieth century trails winding through fields shown on maps as the Camino and waymarked as such that were not followed by medieval pilgrims and a network of almost forgotten Roman roads that probably were.
Ironically, in his desire to associate his route with the Canterbury pilgrimage, James missed its true history. It is now though to be much older, pre-Roman in fact, and served as a means by which pre-historic humans could follow high ground to reach what is nowadays the English Channel where before the end of the last ice-age there was a land bridge connecting England and France.
Thank you so much for posting the photo and the information poster, @NavyBlue. Things are falling into place for methe Calzada Romana is a genuine Roman road. You will walk along the way itself, as the remnants are fenced for protection. Details are posted in a shelter (in Spanish). I learned then that not all Roman roads are paved with large stones. Here, in the Meseta, local gravel has been used. The cambered cross-section can be seen under the grass.
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The brief answer to the question is "Yes" -- because most Roman roads were minor ones, not the major infrastructural ones that everyone talks about, and yes the Romans did basically invent infrastructure as such.
And it's also "Yes" because you asked : "or next to ..."
The road over the mountain after Astorga up to Cruz de Ferro and then down to Triacastela is a Roman one, it's just not a major road recorded on maps as one.
Just locally, there are three pathways here up into the mountain called "chemin romain", all of Roman origin, although only one of the three is the Via Aurelia and therefore the historic Roman and Pilgrim Road to both Rome and Compostela, and BTW from the entire Spanish, French, and Italian Mediterranean Coast to Rome. The other two are Roman pathways that were used by locals to get down and up again from Market and Work.
Having said that, in Western Continental Europe, many of the old Roman roads were transformed over the centuries to eventually become tarmacked motor vehicle roads, not rarely dual carriageway and &c., so that Pilgrims often end up avoiding them rather than walking or cycling on them.
So typically, the Camino will tend to advance near to the old Roman roads rather than lead you onto the old roads themselves, which have very often become the domain of motor vehicles.
Many routes that have characteristics typical of Roman roads actually run parallel to those roads, from the results of boundary disputes between farmers/peasants and between pueblos, in the Middle Ages, leading to re-routing away from the original traces.I certainly do not want to 'bully' the Meseta - I love the Meseta!. For instance, the dirt road between Carrión de los Condes and Calzadilla de la Cueza is just so straight and is the most direct route that it must have been the the most direct route - here I can well imagine that there is an ancient road now covered in chip underneath this exact route as @Rebekah Scott suggests may be the case.
That is somewhat incorrect in detail, as the Romans seem to have in most places renovated existing roads rather than starting from scratch (which they also certainly did in some places, including right here where I live).the Romans controlled Spain for hundreds of years and all their roads were major roads as they were the only built roads in the country. Later they were still used, for more hundreds of years. Then, as new villages and towns were built and settled and Roman roads fell into disrepair new roads were built but all the major artery network in Spain was still Roman, even if the new roads went alongside - they took basically the same route. Now, of course, they are overlaid by modern roads or people no longer want to go to where they once lead ...
Interesting photos of roads with a layer of stones on top. I could not tell you whether they were put there 2000 years ago or 20 years ago unless I've read it in a book. A shallow depression or minor elevation of the soil? Without a guidebook telling me what it is, I can't even say whether it is natural or man made, let alone when it was created.Where Invierno becomes La Plata; Ponte Taboada & Silleda, are these not Roman roads?
It all started 1200 years agoI often think 'How true is the current Frances route?' There are some parts that I have walked many times and each time I have questioned 'Why this route' Did it really follow the same route through the Meseta as it does today?
I have had disagreements with others that say most of the Camino is buried under the current highways?
Then there are towns that were hardly in existence at this time such as Estella. Would one not have walked through each town to get water and provisions? Was it permitted to take short cuts through private land? Have some towns been excluded?
Bekkah (as I think of her) is one of those True Hospitaleros, alongside such excellent people as Jesus Jato, Jean-Louis in Lourdes, and the sadly deceased Pablo Mesonero.Rebekah, as you are one of the true Camino angels
Many mediaeval roads are incorrectly attributed to Rome.Where Invierno becomes La Plata; Ponte Taboada & Silleda, are these not Roman roads?
It's easier to take the detour 'round it -- but we're suckers for nostalgia, so we never do !!!Small Roman path and bridge just after Cirauqui
Well -- it was, just not as attractive to travellers as after they renovated it.wasn't there before Napoleon's engineers built it
Just as on the Camino, there are many parallel routes to Canterbury.Lots of parallels here with the Camino
They often did -- because they were motivated by reasons of both shelter and Religion to make their Way via the Monasteries and Pilgrim Hospitals that had been established in those remote locations.I wondered about the original path taken by pilgrims from Le Puy-- I cannot imagine that they took the route that went over the hills (current route)
It is a somewhat tedious walk, but the Albergues and pueblos that it leads through are pleasant, and IMO repeat Francès pilgrims would be not ill-advised to go that way at least once.Needless to say that this road is quite straight and may feel a bit long for the pilgrim...
I've been thinking , Lets round off the demise of the European Roman Empire to AD 400 , then would there have been ANY Roman roads still in existence 400 or even 600 years later? Was there any maintenance? and should we rather be talking about Romanesque roads. The Cirauqui road ; has that really lasted 1600 years? And it has already been suggested on other threads that the bridges on the Camino to Lorca are Romanesque rather than Roman. What about the bridge at Puente la Reina - has that stood for a 1000 years without any Major intervention?It all started 1200 years ago ...............
There's a nice chunk of Roman road on the Camino Madrid heading into SegoviaAlas, I am not an expert in Roman remains or the old highways of Spain. I know that most Roman roads and bridges here were rebuilt and/or replaced during the medieval period, and some later improved during the Golden Age of the Catholic Monarchs and Philip ii, royals who loved to gad about the country. When Roman highways fell into disuse, their paving stones were often dug out and carted off for other uses.
I do know there's a very nicely preserved (restored) strip of Roman road out in the wilds between Calzada del Coto and Reliegos, and another one in Fuenterroble de Salvatierra on the Via de la Plata. One thing to remember: in the early days, roads were built for trade and soldiers, not for pilgrims or even local convenience. Astorga and Merida were major Roman cities because they tied-together trade routes and military stations. The Camino Invierno was a trade route that linked mines to markets -- its occasional use by pilgrims was purely incidental. What are the "original routes?" The Primitivo, clearly. The Olvidado. And the Frances! What is "original?" The pioneer pilgrims just followed the roads that took them most safely and directly to Santiago. There was no "Way." The road was already there. The Way was made by walking!
(meantime, track down a copy of "Camino de Santiago: Relaciones geograficas, historicas y artisticas," by Jose Ortiz Baeza, Manuel Paz de Santos y Francisco Garcia Mascarell. 2010, Ministerio de Defensa. It's all color maps and photos and relief drawings of the Camino Frances, a treasure trove for map lovers and Camino heads.)
I will ask some of my historian buds what they think of this question.
There's a nice chunk of Roman road on the Camino de Madrid through the mountains, heading into Segovia, and a "marked as such" stretch of Roman road on the Camino PortuguesAlas, I am not an expert in Roman remains or the old highways of Spain. I know that most Roman roads and bridges here were rebuilt and/or replaced during the medieval period, and some later improved during the Golden Age of the Catholic Monarchs and Philip ii, royals who loved to gad about the country. When Roman highways fell into disuse, their paving stones were often dug out and carted off for other uses.
I do know there's a very nicely preserved (restored) strip of Roman road out in the wilds between Calzada del Coto and Reliegos, and another one in Fuenterroble de Salvatierra on the Via de la Plata. One thing to remember: in the early days, roads were built for trade and soldiers, not for pilgrims or even local convenience. Astorga and Merida were major Roman cities because they tied-together trade routes and military stations. The Camino Invierno was a trade route that linked mines to markets -- its occasional use by pilgrims was purely incidental. What are the "original routes?" The Primitivo, clearly. The Olvidado. And the Frances! What is "original?" The pioneer pilgrims just followed the roads that took them most safely and directly to Santiago. There was no "Way." The road was already there. The Way was made by walking!
(meantime, track down a copy of "Camino de Santiago: Relaciones geograficas, historicas y artisticas," by Jose Ortiz Baeza, Manuel Paz de Santos y Francisco Garcia Mascarell. 2010, Ministerio de Defensa. It's all color maps and photos and relief drawings of the Camino Frances, a treasure trove for map lovers and Camino heads.)
I will ask some of my historian buds what they think of this question.
We were also looking forward to seeing this stretch of Roman road on our walk last year, having read that it was the longest intact stretch of Roman road in Spain. However, on the days we walked (Nov. 5-6, 2019), it was evident that some of the remains in the area between Sahagun and Calzadilla de los Hermanillos are now under the new, widened tracks being laid out for a huge irrigation project. Nevertheless, our disappointment was tempered by the joy of finding a very interesting display of Roman engineering complete with numerous explanatory posters laid out in the park across from the Iglesia San Bartolomé in Calzadilla de los Hermanillos. The park is not directly on the route that the camino takes through the town, but it is well worth walking the few blocks off the camino to see it (see map below). Heading west from Calzadilla de los Hermanillos, the Via Romana is more intact and there is much of interest to imagine.I now regret that I did not opt for this alternative way to Calzadilla de los Hermillos and had a look at it myself.
Maintenance was kept up in some places, and abandoned in others.I've been thinking , Lets round off the demise of the European Roman Empire to AD 400 , then would there have been ANY Roman roads still in existence 400 or even 600 years later? Was there any maintenance?
Most informative , thank you - I'm learning a lot from my own post........................ Roman roads were very often BTW just dirt or gravel roads except near to the towns, so it's not surprising that they have meandered away from their original paths over the centuries.
I do but I will not answer the questionI wondered about the original path taken by pilgrims from Le Puy-- I cannot imagine that they took the route that went over the hills (current route) and did not follow the river valleys. Were there Roman roads there? Does anyone have information on that?
The christian pilgrim route took over from the pagan route to Finesterre, so long before any Roman roads. I think it has deviated and changed many times.I often think 'How true is the current Frances route?' There are some parts that I have walked many times and each time I have questioned 'Why this route' Did it really follow the same route through the Meseta as it does today?
I have had disagreements with others that say most of the Camino is buried under the current highways?
Then there are towns that were hardly in existence at this time such as Estella. Would one not have walked through each town to get water and provisions? Was it permitted to take short cuts through private land? Have some towns been excluded?
The fascinating thing about the roads taken by Romans and by medieval pilgrims is the fact that there is concrete testimony of their existence left for us to explore and to enjoy today, in the form of road infrastructure either visible to the naked eye or detectable by aerial survey or more modern techniques to investigate what is in the soil without disturbing it, in the form of bridges and buildings still standing, either fully or partially intact, or ruins plainly visible, in the form of plenty of written original documents or at least credible copies of original documents, in the form of names of roads transmitted through centuries like Calzada Romana, Calzada de los peregrinos and similar. It's amazing how many traces there are left.christian pilgrim route [...] pagan route [...] Roman roads
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