SYates
Camino Fossil AD 1999, now living in Santiago de C
- Time of past OR future Camino
- First: Camino Francés 1999
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Last: Santiago - Muxia 2019
Now: http://egeria.house/
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Likewise, because I can.We always give what we would pay in other Albergues and many times more as we inquire about the operational cost. Also we give more for good food.
True !IMHO, it's the "donativo" ideal, and the volunteer hospitaleros, who make the Camino unique. Without them, it would be just another cool hike.
IMHO, it's the "donativo" ideal, and the volunteer hospitaleros, who make the Camino unique. Without them, it would be just another cool hike.
... Sometimes only the rich can afford compassion!
I cant work the quote thing on this at all i.e particular lines from a paragraph!!
If you really need help, go to the poor because they will truly understand youre need for help!!
Is indeed true of course!!
However a lot of people who go on camino arent as wealthy as many others ( such is life ) and every penny is a prisoner
Maybe they have saved for that whole experience for months !! Whilst others are very wealthy and dont need too worry about finance which is good also! But as i say thats why donotivos are there!! Discretion
Ime fine thanks and hope you are tooi didnt think i sounded anything but very reasonable☺ but if someone disagrees with something youve put uponline i suppose it can sound like that!
As one who has served in a donativo albergue, never ever watching to see if or what pilgrims put in the box, I find it quite simple. If you have the money, give it. As a pilgrim, I give at least what I give in an albergue with a fixed charge, plus equivalent for meals. I think it was in Bercianos that I saw a notice to the effect that our donations would pay for the meals for tomorrow’s pilgrims, just as our meal was provided by the donations of yesterday’s pilgrims.
Please excuse my outrage, but that's pathetic. We can and should do better than this.We are seeing fewer and fewer traditional donativo albergues as it is getting almost impossible to survive. In Ponferrada and Nájera the average donation is €3...
Please excuse my outrage, but that's pathetic. We can and should do better than this.
Your balance and calm about this is admirable, @LTfit.
Hola @VNwalking you are totally correct - Not only "can we do better"; "we must do better".
Although not to the extent I saw at one of the best "donativo" albergues, one of the hospitaleros was actually telling all the pilgrims what the minimum "going rate" was & he even turned away pilgrims who were not prepared to pay that amount (10 Euros). I had stayed at this place in 2015 and asked what I should donate the answer was E1 to E100 it was up to me. Whilst I was happy to pay the E10 and about 85% of other pilgrims also paid up but a few did not, as I understand it this group of hospitaleros have not been invited back. Sorry I will not confirm or deny where, so don't even think about asking.
Hola @VNwalking you are totally correct - Not only "can we do better"; "we must do better".
Although not to the extent I saw at one of the best "donativo" albergues, one of the hospitaleros was actually telling all the pilgrims what the minimum "going rate" was & he even turned away pilgrims who were not prepared to pay that amount (10 Euros). I had stayed at this place in 2015 and asked what I should donate the answer was E1 to E100 it was up to me. Whilst I was happy to pay the E10 and about 85% of other pilgrims also paid up but a few did not, as I understand it this group of hospitaleros have not been invited back. Sorry I will not confirm or deny where, so don't even think about asking.
My experience from living this way is that it is necessary in today's consumerist culture to educate what donativo means. People tend to devalue what is not expensive - which is crazy. At the same time, there is no sense of paying it forward; people tend to think of it as a momentary transaction without future consequence.It's quite disheartening to see people taking advantage of a good heart.
Sorry, Mike if my post made it seem like I was directly replying to yours.yes I should have corrected. Donativo does not mean free
Its too complex a question!! The fact that money is being questioned defeats the point of a donativo!! If you open up anything on a donativo basis you know what youre in for!! The owners decision!! But i think its a personal thing just like a vote ☺
Sometimes only the rich can afford compassion!
Sometimes - but a quote I read a few days ago also resonates with me:
"If you really need help, go to the poor, because they will truly understand your need for help"
I have found that true, and I am NOT saying that the rich will never will help you, just that the poor understand better where you are at the moment ...
Buen Camino de la Vida, SY
Logrono, 2012(?) in the paroquial Santiago El Real, Good Friday. The place was thronged with members of the confraternity changing into their robes and hoods, practising their drumming, staring at the walls and preparing themselves for the nights efforts and passions.
Meanwhile there is a bunch of Peregrinos: a Tinker; a Belgian with a broken-heart; a Swiss couple, quiet, shy (ever so in love); Bob, from Maine; two girls from somewhere in the Balkans that may or may not have existed at that particular time; and a "burned-out" banker, on sabbatical, well-dressed and wild-eyed.
In the midst of it all we cooked our supper from the benefits of last nights donativos. Some-one slipped out before the town got too hairy and brought back some wine. The Hospitalera, Elisabet, "found" some fresh bread amongst the tables laid for the confraternity. We sat to supper and went out into the town. " No curfew tonight, no point", Elisabet told us.
Most of us slept some, eventually, even though the parades seemed to keep going all night and the building was busy as people came and went. The town seemed to shut down at dawn and then, suddenly, there was an elderly couple toasting bread and making coffee and fetching fruit out of bags, and jamon, and jam. And as we were leaving i heard the "banker" say "this country is amazing, i'm gonna walk all the way to Santiago and all its gonna cost me is my flights". There was, near the stairs down to the exit door, the little discrete box marked "Donativo" but it could be easily ignored.
Elisabet smiled as he left.
In my own case, yes, the ‘owners’ look after the donativo box. I have never been told what was in the box. The hospitalera/os are given money to go buy the food and supplies, and then we get on with it. No checking, just receipts for supplies. The original question: how much is enough? - we are no longer in the age of pilgrims walking under pain of mortal sin or whatever: pilgrims today choose to walk. If a pilgrim can afford to get there, to any point on the camino, said pilgrim ought to have what it takes to pay her or his way. Enough times it has been said already: albergues do not run on fresh air. There may be constraints we innocents know nothing of, as for example: if by charging, there would be costs due as it would now be classed as a business - then better to leave it as donativo. That being said, donativo means it is up to you. Put yourself in the shoes of the individual or organisation running the albergue, then pay what you think is fair, or generous. Don’t tell me though that donativo is free. It means: it is up to you. Now my rant is over. Have I brought coals on my head? I do not mind about that. The camino is not about a cheap holiday. If it becomes that, let it go. That would be so awful. My rant is not over. i have seen downright users. I have seen people who pretend they do not have money to pay. That isn’t my problem as hospitalera. The same welcome is offered in terms of services: shower, bed, washing machine, meals, listening ear if wanted... so, calm down, kirkie: how much is enough? That is up to you, pilgrim. That is up to me, pilgrim.I dont know where this albergue is, how the hospitalero was, and what organization they are members, but HOSVOL, the organization I am member, have two mandatory compliance rules. If the owners of the albergue disagree it, we simply dont serve there.
Those rules are: 1º The albergue is open for EVERY people who say they are pilgrims. 2º Donation means donation. There are not minimun donativo. We accept from nothing to millions of euros, thank you. ( We left one of the albergues with better infrastructure and services of the Frances for that reason. The owners asked for a "donation" of X euros)
Usually experienced hospitaleros, if they can, situates the donation box in a discrete place where the pilgrim dont be observed. In other places the hospitaleros have not the key of the box, the donations inside are managed by the owners of the albergue, whon run with the expenses.
That said, sometimes some hospitaleros may fall into temptation and ask for a minimun,especially if the finances are going badly, and the frustation of thinking that the pilgrims are not real pilgrims but "low cost tourists"
That behavior is seriously rejected by our organization, and may be cause for expulsion of the offender, in case of recidivism, or even the first infraction.
Buen Camino to you all , honest people.
Beautiful...thank you @walkingstuThere isn't enough compassion in the world. And your right it is a "personal thing". My father raised 10 children. When my children came along I went to him for advice. This is what he told me.
" As a parent we have two things to teach our children, and we must have the job done by the time they are 7 or 8. We must teach them right from wrong, and we must teach them the ability to put themselves into someone else's shoes, to empathize.
When your done teaching them those two lessons, then you get out of their way."
Empathy is a personal thing.
But then it's no longer donativo, right, Trude? I get your drift, but I think it far better to educate the freeloaders - especially the types like the banker. That kind of entitlement is hard to fathom.I believe donativo should be changed to 5 euro minimum.
I said fair PAY"fair play?"
Could this not just be a lack of familiarity with it? Our culture does not generally work that way and we don't know 'the rules.' But the thing is you can't do generosity wrong. Reflect on what you can afford and just give what you can - with kind wishes for the people who have supported your stay, and those pilgrims who will come after you.Personally I find donativo a bit awkward and guilt inducing.
I was meaning unfamiliarity with the giving itself - how much is enough, etc. - the kind of thoughts you describe in your post so well. Sorry, I could have been clearer.t's not that, I have been to plenty of donativo albergues.
@notion900 we agree entirely on the goodness of dogs, but I respectfully part company with you here.I think people should be paid for their efforts, it's better to create a proper job in a country that doesn't have enough of them, then constantly depend on goodwill.
Then they are not volunteers. Why insert money into something that is a heartfelt flow of kindness?There could still be volunteer run albergues, just at a fixed price which covers their costs.
Couldn't agree more!Personally I find donativo a bit awkward and guilt inducing. I would rather there were fixed price basic albergues, run by volunteers, if people want to volunteer. I also think a person trying to make their living off donativo is just too hard, and unfair on them. I believe in the minimum wage. I have done a massive amount of volunteering in my life (not on the caminos though), and it can be the cause of burnout and resentment in the end. Fair pay seems better to me.
This is a timely thread as Phil and I will be serving at Granon over Christmas and New Year's.
Then they are not volunteers. Why insert money into something that is a heartfelt flow of kindness?
As Lee suggested, I went back to that old thread, because I was sure I would have written something. And my thoughts were pretty much the same as @notion900’s sentiments, so I surely get where she is coming from. Here’s what I wrote several years ago:
As someone who has been born and bred in a hard driving capitalist economy, I have always found the "donativo" albergues to be frustrating. I would hope that what I pay is enough to keep the albergue in business and making a decent profit. But I can't figure out what that amount is, and I rely on the owners to make that calculation. But if they are donativo, they don't do that for me, so I am left to have to guess what that might be. And, as a good capitalist, I don't like paying for someone else who can perfectly well pay his/her own way but is just too cheap to do it.
I have walked with many who don't give (or who give very little) in donativo albergues --some of them are freeloaders, but if they are told how much to give, they will give it.
I very much like having the freedom to give to my favorite charities, but I very much don't like having to try to figure out how much I should give when I sleep in a bed on the Camino.
I have to admit that I am still a bit conflicted, but thanks to interaction with people like Reb,VN,and LT, I have realized that my frustration is more about my own inability to let go of the rules that I live with on a daily basis — quid pro quo, pay your own way. When I put a big amount in the donativo box at Fuenterroble this year (despite having had a terrifying night there), I understood that giving in thanks for what you have received, irrespective of whether others do the same (even those freeloaders who can afford it), and knowing that no one but you will ever know that you were generous, provides gifts to me that are so much more meaningful than paying my own way or than being recognized as a charitable donor on a list at the end of the year. (That, btw, is why I had so many issues with the American flag that used to fly in the Fuenterroble courtyard in recognition of the APOC gift, but that is another story.... The hospitalera this year told me that the flag had been destroyed in a big storm one night and no one has thought to replace it. But I digress...).
In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.
Laurie, thank you for this lovely post -this is just the tail-end of it. You have exactly described my process around this whole topic - over decades. It is the deepening exploration of hanging on and letting go that is so rewarding.In a world where every little hiccup we utter gets posted on social media, having this one private transaction between yourself and your spirit (maybe some would say conscience) is challenging yet so rewarding in the end.
The Camino continues to teach. I am a better pilgrim/citizen because the lessons I learned while walking the Camino.
This is sweetness of heart - the opposite of what Reb was talking about when she said 'sour:'It Is a joy to help someone else
Then there are the few who have plenty and leave nothing, and sneer at the fools giving away something for nothing. They are on the Way for a reason. Maybe this is the issue they are here to face -- they don't own their money. Their money owns them, and it's turning them sour.
For me it's simple, Voluntering is something you want to do.There could still be volunteer run albergues, just at a fixed price which covers their costs.
"As someone who has been born and bred in a hard driving capitalist economy, I have always found the "donativo" albergues to be frustrating. I would hope that what I pay is enough to keep the albergue in business and making a decent profit. But I can't figure out what that amount is, and I rely on the owners to make that calculation. But if they are donativo, they don't do that for me, so I am left to have to guess what that might be. And, as a good capitalist, I don't like paying for someone else who can perfectly well pay his/her own way but is just too cheap to do it."
I have to admit that I am still a bit conflicted, but thanks to interaction with people like Reb,VN,and LT, I have realized that my frustration is more about my own inability to let go of the rules that I live with on a daily basis — quid pro quo, pay your own way.
Totally. And...Now we are presented with a dilemma - you and only you decide how much to leave. Accept that awkwardness. Investigate the frustration that may arise. That too is the Camino
Our culture does not generally work that way and we don't know 'the rules.' But the thing is you can't do generosity wrong.
Oh you can...you can't do generosity wrong
For the older generation maybe. Younger people are now forced to volunteer to build their CV's. I've done months of it.For me it's simple, Voluntering is something you want to do. A paid job is something you need to do .
I thought I had the Donativo concept all worked out on my head.
Now I'm really conflicted
Guess I just have to try it..............
Though part of me says, I can afford to stay in private places, I should leave the Donativo beds for those who need them.
But then on the other hand, my contribution will help to subsidise others...........
Maybe I should just drop in a donation as I pass?
Part of me is thinking this is all too hard.
Just give me a 'guide' can't you
Here's a thought, that might work in our consumer society.
In my businesses, part of our income always goes to charity.
And we give gratitude certificates to our customers. It's 'micro' giving.
Even if we run a free seminar, we give a charity donation on behalf of each of our guests, as a thank you for giving up their time. It might be water for 10 people in a drought stricken region, or 5 meals for Orphans in India. It mounts up!
Every transaction in time or money also has a small charity component.
Could this work for a Donativo Albergue? No idea what the amounts should be, but it will give you the concept.
How We use Your Donations/Contribution
0. We are so pleased to be able to help you undertake your Pilgrimage and totally understand that this Donativo Albergue is helping you to do that. You are MOST Welcome.
5. We appreciate your contribution that will help pay for your meals. and we are most grateful.
10. Your contribution has covered all your accommodation and meals. Thank you so much.
15. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed a Pilgrim who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.
20. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed TWO Pilgrims who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.
25. Your contribution has not only covered your bed and meals, but you have fed THREE Pilgrims who will stay here tomorrow. We thank you on their behalf.
etc etc
Many of those who can afford it, I suspect will willingly give more, as they can see what support it will provide.
It doesn't have to be specific, but it makes the point quite clearly that you are helping the next Pilgrim with a bed, a meal or whatever.
And regrading where the box is kept. I wouldn't 'hide' it, but not make it too obvious either. No one should be able to see what Pilgrims are putting into it.
Just a thought..........
Of course. Point taken. But we are talking about offering to an albergue, not some bad orphanage schemes. 'Whataboutery' merely takes the discussion off course.
I am sorry for you.For the older generation maybe. Younger people are now forced to volunteer to build their CV's. I've done months of it.
Thanks for the commentary on the defects of my character, but you don't know me. Like I said, I prefer to help create sustainable jobs for local people who really need them, rather than indulge the helping impulses of people of greater means, who helicopter in from abroad with great intentions. This is the theory of change being adopted by the great majority of reputable international development agencies nowadays.Seeing the world through a cynical lens of consumerist quid-pro-quo is a choice, @notion900.
That is your inference, but not what I said. Obviously we do not speak the same language.Thanks for the commentary on the defects of my character
Which is great - and I'm not being the least sarcastic.I prefer to help create sustainable jobs for local people who really need them, rather than indulge the helping impulses of people of greater means, who helicopter in from abroad with great intentions.
And a good thought too. It led me to think that this more commercial idea is worth considering. Donotivo albergues could create a small sticker, pin, button or patch to be placed by the donation box with a sign saying to take one for a donation of some amont. Perhaps as a cheaper test of this is to have some small gold star stickers there. For 15 euros take one and place it next to your sello.Just a thought..........
Thank you Laurie, for the settled post, and for the encouragement to think out of the box.I never thought of donativos in this context, but will now do so!
The camino is a big input of money, environmental pressure (water, litter), and cultural imperialism to the economically deprived areas it traverses. It shares a lot of economic, and some spiritual, features with tourism, and one of the main aims of NGOs is to make tourism more sustainable and inclusive for local people. Creating jobs and capacity in depopulated and deprived areas, and preventing the big boys taking over and cashing in when an opportunity presents, is the essence of international development. It makes me a bit disappointed that many people on this forum seem to see the caminos in some kind of esoteric bubble, not as part of real life. Next time you pass a ruined or locked-up building on the camino, ask yourself where are those people? In an apartment in Madrid, most likely, because they couldn't afford to stay in their home.the Camino is a totally different universe from international NGOs
I am sorry to see that this thread is getting contentious. Maybe notion and VN should continue in a PM. For those of us who struggle with the donativo concept, there has been a lot of food for thought here, and I hope we can get continue to share opinions. I think the discussion/disagreement about the philanthropy model is extremely interesting, and though it may not be directly on point, I do think that it leads to different perspectives on the role of donativos. I have to do a bit more thinking about this, because I am somewhat familiar with some of the changes in the philanthropy NGO world in terms of grantmaking. I never thought of donativos in this context, but will now do so!
And both... and less likely to stay in a Donativo.
Basically because I would feel like a fraud staying there.
They are not supposed to be for people who can afford to stay elsewhere.
Or are they? Heck I have no idea really............
...
And both
It is really easy - Donativo albergues are for EVERYONE and don't care if you have money or no money.
Everybody is equally welcome and everybody receives the same welcome.
The sign in the donation box of Granon reads:
"Leave what you can and take what you need"
And that is the essence of it in the end:
Take - A smile, a welcome, a hot shower, a meal, a prayer.
Leave - A smile, a hug, and, yes, some of your money if you can afford it.
It isn't rocket salad as a dear friend of mine would say.
And both, pilgrims and hospitaleros alike, always, always receive more than they give - another mystery of the Camino that is hard and easy to understand at the same time ;-)
Buen Camino de la Vida, SY
(That, btw, is why I had so many issues with the American flag that used to fly in the Fuenterroble courtyard in recognition of the APOC gift, but that is another story.... The hospitalera this year told me that the flag had been destroyed in a big storm one night and no one has thought to replace it. But I digress...).
If I remember correctly, it is a chest of artifacts left by overpacked pilgrims (hair dryersThe sign in the donation box of Granon reads:
"Leave what you can and take what you need"
Not to be concerned, Rob. All are welcome and no-one is unworthy to partake, even if they are rich as Croesus. That's the point. It's just that if you can, give forward so the folks after you can also eat and have a roof over their heads.Now it's really starting to feel like hypocrisy for me to stay there.
It's a real Catch 22 isn't it?
We were talking around this Marc, but you went straight there. Thank you.For me the whole donativo concept has always been primarily about trust.
It is all heart. Lucky pilgrims to be at Grañón over the hollidays with, @J Willhaus . Or ponferrada in January with @LTfit!A lovely place, BTW. True Camino spirit.
I sense that you're overthinking. The donativo albergues that I have stayed at are for all pilgrims. You're a pilgrim who belongs there as much as the next pilgrim. You will be welcomed and your donation will be gratefully received.Basically because I would feel like a fraud staying there.
This is a really interesting, and educational tread.
It is great to see people from different societies/cultures/viewpoints contributing.
I do think Donotivo’s are a struggle for most people, as has already been stated, because we are so used to being asked for a price for an item/service (before we receive it), deciding if it is worth it/can we afford it, and either agreeing, or walking away.
However, there is an advantage to this system, as a consumer, in that you are not asked to pay upfront, for an unknown service, in fact in most cases, you receive the service/food etc, before you pay!
So, it is up to the payee, to decide what the service was worth, and there, lies the issue.
We don’t know what things are worth, because we are so conditioned to being asked for money up front, so influenced by advertising, so used to being told what to do/buy/consume/value.
I live in a rural part of a Celtic country. Bartering is still a way to do unofficial business. If a neighbour helps me out, I may (most likely), be unable to pay them for their assistance, but I may be able to pay them in eggs, honey, returning the favour etc.
The way I think about it, is that it’s like Karma, but with a little twist. Instead of, you get back what you give (or seven fold what you give, in some beliefs), you give for what you get (or seven fold if you can afford it), and it will be paid on.
OK, maybe not to you, (no instant gratification with this system!), but you will get it back again (even if you just feel better for helping another unknown pilgrim).
At the end of the day, the Donotivo system is all about honesty. Since time immemorial there have been honest and dishonest people.
If the system cannot continue due to lack of donations, that is an indication of where the human race is going, conditioned by advertising, big business, government etc (me society, my life, my camino, ….........…….in my opinion!!)
Robo,
I know from past posts that you had some reservations about staying in albergues, and I want to say that sometimes the worst night's sleep were at the best places I ever stayed. Not all donativos are like this, but the legendary Granon and Viana are among the places where you will sleep on thin gym mats on the floor. It is the ambiance provided by pilgrims and hospitaleros and the town folk that make these albergue s special.
If I remember correctly, it is a chest of artifacts left by overpacked pilgrims (hair dryersetc.) in that albergue that has that sign, not the donativo box? A lovely place, BTW. True Camino spirit.
CU, amiga.
It is in both places, amigo. Buen Camino, SY
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