Frameless packs

[Ivan Shannon]

Hello fellow pilgrims,



I wondering what is view on frameless packs. I am looking at least 500g saving in weight between two packs and possibly up to 1kg saving because I am concerned that I will not get everything into a 31L pack.

Has anyone previous used a frameless pack while walking from St. Jean?

I not leaving for six weeks and have time to adjust pack size and overall weight. Suppose I am looking for that sweet spot between light weight and comfort.

Thanks

 

[Anhalter]

Walked the Frances with a ~375g frameless pack. Went well most of the time. Most of my problems were, that the 26L internal volume was to much for what i was carrying (you get rigidity from packing it tight).

Will walk my next Camino with a slightly heavier, slightly larger (28L internal) pack, coming in at 500g. It offers more padding on the shoulder straps and better compression options.

Volume alone, i guess around 20L internal would be plenty for me.

 

[trecile]

Make sure that your savings in weight don't come at the expense of carrying comfort!

 

[martin1ws]

I would say that it is easier to adjust the backpack with a frame... but I cannot exactly explain it.

You could walk a day with a frameless backpack and another day with a backpack with frame - each day with your planned camino weight... and then you could see what is more comfortable for you.

Or you look for davebugg's backpack postings for more info (but it is a lot of stuff for reading...), e. g. here with general info:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...ssential-component-for-a-good-backpack.73256/

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...roperly-size-fit-and-adjust-a-backpack.73307/

here a comparison between a frameless backpack and one with a frame:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/backpack-indecision-help.70487/page-2#post-940601

 

[Roland49]

Never used a framed pack. I consider framed packs with 65-90l for expeditions in rough terrain and high mountains, in my opinion: hiking-packs should be frameless.
For ease of packing and the comfort of easy access I installed a carbonfiber-rod with two slings, so my pack will not collapse. Few grams more for comfort.

 

[davebugg]

Hello fellow pilgrims,



I wondering what is view on frameless packs. I am looking at least 500g saving in weight between two packs and possibly up to 1kg saving because I am concerned that I will not get everything into a 31L pack.

Has anyone previous used a frameless pack while walking from St. Jean?

I not leaving for six weeks and have time to adjust pack size and overall weight. Suppose I am looking for that sweet spot between light weight and comfort.

Thanks

Among frameless backpacks, there are brands and models that are lighter than others, and there are internal framed backpacks that are lighter than many models of unframed backpacks. In other words, a 'frameless' backpack might not be the lightest choice.

As far as the advisability of using a frameless backpack, it depends on what the weight of your load is inside of the pack. Frameless backpacks are best used for loads that weigh under 16 pounds/ 7 Kg. Up to that weight level, a quality frameless backpack can still effectively transfer the weight to the hipbelt.

I have gear tested backpacks from manufacturers that claim carrying capacities up to 25 pounds/11.3 Kg, but at that load range, the backpack will slump down due to a lack of internal frame or stays, making the hipbelt mostly ineffectual in its traditional role. So, yes, those backpacks can technically carry 11 Kg or more, but probably not as comfortably as you'd prefer.

So if your load is under 7 Kg, there are some very good frameless packs (not all frameless packs are created equal, though). If above, it is better to look at losing the 500g weight by trimming back here and there on the weight of the gear and clothing, and staying with a backpack that has a more rigid frame structure.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

My son has carried a very lightweight ULA backpack on all of his Caminos and been very happy. It has a very minimal frame and has no problem repacking it in the mornings. He does not use it on his backpacking trips.

 

[Ivan Shannon]

Never used a framed pack. I consider framed packs with 65-90l for expeditions in rough terrain and high mountains, in my opinion: hiking-packs should be frameless.
For ease of packing and the comfort of easy access I installed a carbonfiber-rod with two slings, so my pack will not collapse. Few grams more for comfort.

Roland, can you please explain the carbofibre rods?

 

[henrythedog]

I’ve got a substantial collection of rucksacks, a couple of which are very light and frameless. (Although not as ultralight as contributors above) I keep trying to like them as the weight saving is meaningful, but I cannot. Even with a 6/7Kg load I much prefer the hip-loading and air circulation which a framed sack provides. I default back to a 1/3 empty Osprey Kestrel 38.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

I went frameless on my second Camino. It was OK for space (38l) but would tend to fall over when being packed/unpacked/off my back at a cafe. Stiffening it with a rolled up kip mat (which was never used to sleep on) made this less of a problem.

They can give you a sweaty back but as you're going in April that shouldn't be a concern.

Depending on your torso size you're likely to find all the weight either on your shoulders, on your kidneys or both.

Went back to framed packs after that, my current one weighs just 1.3kg but I'm a big guy so can take it.

BC.

 

[Roland49]

Roland, can you please explain the carbofibre rods?

Easy: bought a carbonfibre-rod in the model-shop (2m, 1,5mm thick), sewed 2 loops (works also with sewed in triangles) in the front-corners of the pack and a third one (really had to look now) on the middle of the back-seam of the pack.
Lengthend the rod to fit, et viola: my backpack won't collaps.
The carbonfibre is very strong, you can almost bend it to a loop and it weighs only a few grams.
Be careful when cutting the carbonfibre, did it with an model angle grinder and cutting disc. For safty I fitted the ends of the rod with a few layers of gaffa-tape.

Hope that helps.
I don't know where I saw this modification first, maybe at a pilgrims meetup.

 

[Shalaw]

I'm no expert, but I do believe having a backpack with a frame allows the weight to be distributed more evenly. I carried 10kgs and it felt as light as a feather because of the quality of my framed pack. It just felt more even, and never felt lopsided, etc..

Buen Camino

 

[PilgrimPillar]

Valid points all through this post. Top notch.

Just to give reference of choice out of personal preference and/or experience

Bought another exped lightning 60 ltr cause my son ,( who is twelve), can use same features. It has adjustments for different lenghths of ones back and weighs one kilo.

Ultreia🙏🏼

Among frameless backpacks, there are brands and models that are lighter than others, and there are internal framed backpacks that are lighter than many models of unframed backpacks. In other words, a 'frameless' backpack might not be the lightest choice.

As far as the advisability of using a frameless backpack, it depends on what the weight of your load is inside of the pack. Frameless backpacks are best used for loads that weigh under 16 pounds/ 7 Kg. Up to that weight level, a quality frameless backpack can still effectively transfer the weight to the hipbelt.

I have gear tested backpacks from manufacturers that claim carrying capacities up to 25 pounds/11.3 Kg, but at that load range, the backpack will slump down due to a lack of internal frame or stays, making the hipbelt mostly ineffectual in its traditional role. So, yes, those backpacks can technically carry 11 Kg or more, but probably not as comfortably as you'd prefer.

So if your load is under 7 Kg, there are some very good frameless packs (not all frameless packs are created equal, though). If above, it is better to look at losing the 500g weight by trimming back here and there on the weight of the gear and clothing, and staying with a backpack that has a more rigid frame structure.

 

[kitepuppet]

I have done a couple of late winter caminos using a Golite Race rucksack. It weighs about 800g and is around 42l. It's frameless, but what I do is pack my sleeping bag and down blanket into a good quality drybag and sit on it to expel the air and then seal the drybag. This forms a fairly stiff pad which sits against my back and other stuff is packed around it. This makes the rucksack "stand up" when resting on the ground but body forming and comfortable whilst wearing.

 

[Mera]

Hello fellow pilgrims,



I wondering what is view on frameless packs. I am looking at least 500g saving in weight between two packs and possibly up to 1kg saving because I am concerned that I will not get everything into a 31L pack.

Has anyone previous used a frameless pack while walking from St. Jean?

I not leaving for six weeks and have time to adjust pack size and overall weight. Suppose I am looking for that sweet spot between light weight and comfort.

Thanks

I tried once and switched back to the one with frames. The pack was lighter but felt heavier and was not comfortable to me.

 

[RJM]

I have gone the frameless route from St Jean all the way to Santiago. I had no problems with it. It was in July through August, very warm and no rain. I had the absolute minimum of gear, and no rain gear at all. No sleeping bag, just a liner a change of clothes and rubber sandals, toiletries etc. I only used that pack because it was all I had at the time and saw no need in purchasing a framed one upon my arrival in France. Subsequent Caminos I used a framed pack. The best one I used was a 32L Deuter with a minimal frame and minimal hip belt that isn't even padded (never found a need for one).
If you are traveling light and in good physical condition the frameless pack works just fine. It's all up to the individual walker, and to be honest walking the Camino Frances is the least technical backpacking trip out there.

 

[Eugene Carroll]

I walked the Frances last year with a frameless Montbell Versalite 30L pack. I had no issues or problems and I have handed my Osprey into the Charity Shop. I am starting the Via Serrana on Saturday and have the Montbell as does my walking companion.

 

[MichelleElynHogan]

Go to Gobigear.com and look over their Freedom Spirit 30L. Open to reviews of others;

30L Free Spirit Travel Backpack

FREE SPIRIT 30L BACKPACK 100% Packable Travel Backpack! And did we mention? It is comfortable too! A truly packable, organizable, travel backpack - perfect for country hopping, day hikes, and ascent day, keep your Free Spirit tucked away until you need it. "LOVE how lightweight and comfortable...

gobi-gear.myshopify.com

 

[Decaferacer]

You’ll probably loose a kg or 2 on the walk so not worth worrying about

 

[Sirage]

Packs like most things are personal preferences. I used on for the Caminho Portuguese when I tried stupid minimalist. Never to be repeated. My choice will always be a pack with a frame. Absolute low weight is to ease the load on the legs feet and body, but is pointless if comfort suffers and in turn counteracts the weight saving through poor posture, fatigue caused by discomfort, or bad moods and swearing because your gear functionality was compromised.

 

[koknesis]

1. Decide what size you need and the load you want to carry.
2. Try how the both packs fit accordingly loaded.
3. If the above is not possible, take the one with frame, because most likely it will have more appropriate suspension.

 

[CreationRamblers]

Hello fellow pilgrims,



I wondering what is view on frameless packs. I am looking at least 500g saving in weight between two packs and possibly up to 1kg saving because I am concerned that I will not get everything into a 31L pack.

Has anyone previous used a frameless pack while walking from St. Jean?

I not leaving for six weeks and have time to adjust pack size and overall weight. Suppose I am looking for that sweet spot between light weight and comfort.

Thanks

try Aarn Packs from New Zealand, small sacks in front (counterbalance) for H2o & essentials then a lightweight pack in back for the rest= great weight distribution. https://www.aarnpacks.com/ Buen Camino! R&M~

 

[RJM]

Packs like most things are personal preferences. I used on for the Caminho Portuguese when I tried stupid minimalist. Never to be repeated. My choice will always be a pack with a frame. Absolute low weight is to ease the load on the legs feet and body, but is pointless if comfort suffers and in turn counteracts the weight saving through poor posture, fatigue caused by discomfort, or bad moods and swearing because your gear functionality was compromised.

I wouldn't say being a minimalist gear wise on the Camino is stupid. It just makes sense for those looking to travel the lightest, which does make walking long distances easier. A five pound pack in any style pack is going to be easier and more comfortable to carry than a ten pound pack in any style pack. Kinda scientific lol.
I can definitely say in 100% honesty that I was never in a bad mood while walking the Camino and never ranted and sweared. Nothing occurred so bad that I would have. Thanks be to Providence for that. That's the kind of shite I'm running from while on the Camino.

 

[koknesis]

A five pound pack in any style pack is going to be easier and more comfortable to carry than a ten pound pack in any style pack.

I would not be so certain about that. The science behind is how the mass is distributed and what mechanical leverage it creates. I believe @davebugg has explained this elsewhere. So, the suspension plays a central role here.
I can confirm that equally loaded Atmos (“antigravity” suspension) is more convenient to carry than an Exos (ordinary suspension), even though the former is heavier.

 

[Anhalter]

@koknesis I think that depends on how heavy the content of your pack is. If it's only around 3kg that you put inside, i think a 2kg Atmos pack might be a poor choice. If you want to put the more traditional 6-8kg inside, things might be different.
I do follow the argument, that how the pack distributes weight does have some significance. But in the end, from the hips down, all the weight will have to be carried by your legs and feet.

 

[RJM]

I would not be so certain about that. The science behind is how the mass is distributed and what mechanical leverage it creates. I believe @davebugg has explained this elsewhere. So, the suspension plays a central role here.
I can confirm that equally loaded Atmos (“antigravity” suspension) is more convenient to carry than an Exos (ordinary suspension), even though the former is heavier.

If I pick up a five pound rock and see how long I can hold it out with one hand, and do the same with a ten pound rock, I will 100% of the time be able to hold the five pound rock longer.
End of science lesson kids, lol.

 

[koknesis]

End of science lesson kids, lol.

Ever heard of mechanical advantage and levers? The properly designed pack suspension is meant to minimize the force created by them. Speaking about those rocks, I bet one will be able to keep longer ten pound rock with a flexed hand close to the body than five pond one in extended hand. So, those “antigravity” suspensions neither delete packs mass nor the gravity force, simply they aim to minimize the total energy expenditure to create a force to keep it steady on the back from the subject carrying it.

 

[sillydoll]

I have been using the frameless 32L OMM (Original Mountain Marathon) Classic for many years. It weighs about 600g empty and around 6kg fully packed. I usually walk between May and September so only need lightweight clothing. I am 74 years old, weigh 57kg and have osteoporosis, worse in the spine, so I never carry heavier weights. https://theomm.com/product/classic-32-2/

 

[Ivan Shannon]

I have been using the frameless 32L OMM (Original Mountain Marathon) Classic for many years. It weighs about 600g empty and around 6kg fully packed. I usually walk between May and September so only need lightweight clothing. I am 74 years old, weigh 57kg and have osteoporosis, worse in the spine, so I never carry heavier weights. https://theomm.com/product/classic-32-2/

Thank you for your response, I am coming to the opinion that using a frameless pack is only an option if the overall weight is low, 6-7Kg, heaver weight need more structure.

 

[sillydoll]

Thank you for your response, I am coming to the opinion that using a frameless pack is only an option if the overall weight is low, 6-7Kg, heaver weight need more structure.

You're probably right. The recommended weight for the OMM is 9kg. I don't think I could carry 9kg, nor would I need to even if I was younger and stronger! The Camino isnt a wilderness trail and all one needs is a change of clothing, raingear, toiletries, medication and 1 - 1.5lt of water. The villages are mostly not more than 10km apart, the road is never far from the path, and even small places have a cafe-bar.

 

[Former member 99816]

try Aarn Packs from New Zealand, small sacks in front (counterbalance) for H2o & essentials then a lightweight pack in back for the rest= great weight distribution. https://www.aarnpacks.com/ Buen Camino! R&M~

Good post. My pack has pockets for water bottles but they are pretty unreachable. I like the idea of Aarn, wonder if there are issues just using a water bottle pocket strapped to shoulder strap. Something like this

Elastic Top Water Bottle Holder for a Backpack - Etsy

This Camping item by GearBagsandMorebyCP has 965 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Fillmore, IN. Listed on Feb 22, 2023

www.etsy.com

 

[trecile]

Good post. My pack has pockets for water bottles but they are pretty unreachable. I like the idea of Aarn, wonder if there are issues just using a water bottle pocket strapped to shoulder strap. Something like this

Elastic Top Water Bottle Holder for a Backpack - Etsy

This Camping item by GearBagsandMorebyCP has 965 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Fillmore, IN. Listed on Feb 22, 2023

www.etsy.com

There are all kinds of ways to carry water. Just try out several and see what works for you!

 

[Susan Peacock]

I will echo what many have said..... we all have personal preferences. I have walked with the following packs:
Gregory (Jade and the older version)
Osprey (Exos and Talon (mens)
Gossamer Gear (frameless)
Aarn

I didn't like the Aarn, I was already carrying enough weight on my chest The Gossamer Gear without a frame felt like my junk was going to fall out the bottom. It was in the cold spring so I needed a lot more gear than a summer Camino. For me the frame helps distribute the weight and the weight saving is minimal. In any event, I had wonderful Camino's whatever pack I was carrying. Some just a little more comfortable than others

 

[Ivan Shannon]

I will echo what many have said..... we all have personal preferences. I have walked with the following packs:
Gregory (Jade and the older version)
Osprey (Exos and Talon (mens)
Gossamer Gear (frameless)
Aarn

I didn't like the Aarn, I was already carrying enough weight on my chest The Gossamer Gear without a frame felt like my junk was going to fall out the bottom. It was in the cold spring so I needed a lot more gear than a summer Camino. For me the frame helps distribute the weight and the weight saving is minimal. In any event, I had wonderful Camino's whatever pack I was carrying. Some just a little more comfortable than others

Thanks, I have enough kit generally for two people, walked with my daughter before COVID from Porto so I will pack both backpacks and test weight distribution against less weight.
Ivan

 

[davebugg]

Thanks, I have enough kit generally for two people, walked with my daughter before COVID from Porto so I will pack both backpacks and test weight distribution against less weight.
Ivan

Hi, Ivan. What are the brands and models of the two backpacks?

 

[CreationRamblers]

There are all kinds of ways to carry water. Just try out several and see what works for you!

we are currently using 1 liter collapsible bottles in our Aarn packs, they get lighter as you go since your drinking the weight in water, the Platypus softbottle collapsible 1.0 Liter bottles from Amazon ($17.99) they work nicely in the front Aarn front packs.

 

[CreationRamblers]

There are all kinds of ways to carry water. Just try out several and see what works for you!

we are using these right now, they work great, 1.0 Liter collapsible Platypus water bottles, they get lighter as you go and are easy to refill, plus they sit nicely against your body as you carry since they are flat. $18 on Amazon.

 

[henrythedog]

To be fair it’s an inherent characteristic of all water bottles that they get lighter as they empty.

I buy and reuse a couple of 0.75l bottles of mineral water and carry a few water purification tablets in case I have to refill at a ‘suspect’ source. I don’t walk in summer (in Spain) so I find it sufficient to set-out fully hydrated and 1.5l sees me through most days.

If you’re walking as a pair you could put your bottle in a pocket of your partner’s sack, and vice versa.

 

[Consey78]

Question to all those who use a frameless back pack.
I moved over to a framed backpack a number of years ago. The main reason was ventilation along my back. I just remember my back sweating like crazy, it all being either soaked up into the pack or running down my back in a huge stream that would roll down my shorts and into the crack of my bum. Horrible.
The extra Kg to avoid this is worth it
Can any frameless backpack user comment on their experience with this and recommend a frameless backpack with good ventilation along the back.
Thanks

 

[Anhalter]

Due to their nature, the pack will be in contact with your back. You will sweat more and it will have less room to evaporate. For me it was not a big issue and i hear that from multiple buddies that use frameless aswell.
But if you are a heavy sweater, it might be an issue.

There are a few packs, that at least try to make things a bit better. The frameless Gossamer Gear packs feature a little pad between your back and the pack itself, there is also a more breathable one you can buy. Other packs have some kind of mesh. But still, it will not be the same as a pack where just some kind of net is touching your back.

There is, to my best knowledge, only one pack out there, that offers a frame/ventilation system within "ultralight" weight. Unfortunately they are quite expensive.

Backpacks

Specifically designed for long-distance hikers, our ultralight backpacks are perfect for crushing miles on any trail. Our Dyneema®️ Composite Fabric is waterproof, comes with taped seams, and is the lightest option we carry. Our Robic®️ Fabric is a more rugged option with better abrasion resistance.

zpacks.com

 

[steve 217]

I have done a couple of late winter caminos using a Golite Race rucksack. It weighs about 800g and is around 42l. It's frameless, but what I do is pack my sleeping bag and down blanket into a good quality drybag and sit on it to expel the air and then seal the drybag. This forms a fairly stiff pad which sits against my back and other stuff is packed around it. This makes the rucksack "stand up" when resting on the ground but body forming and comfortable whilst wearing.

I agree re Go lite race ,used on every Camino trip ,best rucksack ive ever owned ,fits me perfectly weighs nothing (almost) when empty only problem is you have to pack everything in drybags as in no way waterproof . Sadly i dont think they make them anymore i still search for them on ebay as im afraid that mine will eventually fail .
agree entirely that it needs to be stiffened by either a sleeping bag mat or just a piece of foam which i pull out and use as a seat . It was a impulse purchase as in the sale for the grand sum of 30 gbp in 2010 and still going.

 

[HikeTall]

I’m an Osprey guy & have numerous packs from them. My fav line of theirs is the Talon(Tempest for women) series. They have 22, 26, 30, 33 & 36L versions that don’t have a frame. Their largest pack the 44 does. But the others don’t. Super light & comfy, yet fully featured packs. I love them for long hikes & walks. Check them out at your local outdoor store. 👍🏼

 

[koknesis]

I’m an Osprey guy & have numerous packs from them. My fav line of theirs is the Talon(Tempest for women) series. They have 22, 26, 30, 33 & 36L versions that don’t have a frame. Their largest pack the 44 does. But the others don’t. Super light & comfy, yet fully featured packs. I love them for long hikes & walks. Check them out at your local outdoor store. 👍🏼

Talons are great packs indeed, still their Airscape suspension uses an injection-molded frame.. Nevertheless they are lighter than corresponding Stratos with Airspeed trampoline suspension and metal frame. Kind of 40l/kg vs 30l/kg.

 

[Embee12]

I will echo what many have said..... we all have personal preferences. I have walked with the following packs:
Gregory (Jade and the older version)
Osprey (Exos and Talon (mens)
Gossamer Gear (frameless)
Aarn

I didn't like the Aarn, I was already carrying enough weight on my chest The Gossamer Gear without a frame felt like my junk was going to fall out the bottom. It was in the cold spring so I needed a lot more gear than a summer Camino. For me the frame helps distribute the weight and the weight saving is minimal. In any event, I had wonderful Camino's whatever pack I was carrying. Some just a little more comfortable than others

@Susan Peacock How did the Osprey Exos work for you? I've tried many (in store and also at home on hikes). Today I tried the Osprey Exos, the first men's I've tried, and it surprised me by being more comfortable than about 10 others I've tried (with 10 lbs in it though without having walked in it). (I actually discover that the farther-apart straps of the "men's" suits me better. I've got to walk a bit with it, but my concern is that it doesn't seem to have a whole lot of stuff to clip on or hang off of on the front... How did that work for you?

Thanks.

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Hello fellow pilgrims,



I wondering what is view on frameless packs. I am looking at least 500g saving in weight between two packs and possibly up to 1kg saving because I am concerned that I will not get everything into a 31L pack.

Has anyone previous used a frameless pack while walking from St. Jean?

I not leaving for six weeks and have time to adjust pack size and overall weight. Suppose I am looking for that sweet spot between light weight and comfort.

Thanks

I believe you can carry all you need for your Camino in a 31L pack. You can carry more in a framed backpack. With a framed pack the weight is equally distributed on your back.

 

[dougfitz]

I believe you can carry all you need for your Camino in a 31L pack. You can carry more in a framed backpack.

It would be useful to have some context information here. For a start, what time of year did you walk, how tall are you and how much do you weigh, are you cold/heat tolerant or relatively normal, are you able afford more expensive lightweight clothing and equipment or have a tighter budget that doesn't permit that, and have you reached the age where you need to carry additional medical supplies or equipment?

With a framed pack the weight is equally distributed on your back.

One of the major reasons for a frame is to allow better weight transfer to the hips. Frameless packs with a hip belt will do that too, but in my experience, it is less effective for larger packs. For smaller packs, even those around 30-40 li, it is perhaps less important, and frameless designs mostly work well. That said, I have one 30 li frameless back that doesn't transfer weight at all well. The back is too flexible, and the bag sags, pulling down on my shoulders rather than sitting on my hips. It doesn't get used very often.