Mike Wells
author of 'Cycling the Camino Frances'
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Frances (1995) (2017 twice) (2018); Via de la Plata (1996); Finisterre (2018)
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
One can only hope that cyclists will use their bells and give plenty of warning!One can only hope pedestrians walk sensibly, keeping to one side (preferably the right) so as to let cyclists pass safely.
SHARE THE PATH!
One can only hope that cyclists will use their bells and give plenty of warning!
Good point. I wonder who will enforce that? However, as post-pandemic pilgrim numbers increase, the numbers of pedestrian (pilgrim) walkers may actually discourage local skateboarders. Now about the bicigrinos...?
I am afraid that it for lack of better terms just an unrealistic request. Look how narrow that path is. Pilgrims quite often walk in small and sometimes large groups, chatting, taking photos and engrossed in the moment. That is what walking pilgrims do. Joyously. Unreasonable to expect people living in the moment, a joyful moment, to march to Santiago single file, left right-left. Hup two three four...what are we walking for....dress up that column lad! Be mindful! Be sensible! There may be 100+ kilograms of human and metal two-wheeled machine bearing down on you at 24 kilometres an hour! lol.The previous route was down steps, so was not suitable for bicycles. Cyclists had to follow the road, crossing it twice in order to reach the bridge over the motorway at the bottom of the hill. The new route looks cycle friendly and I assume that like all of the Camino Francés it will be open for cyclists. One can only hope pedestrians walk sensibly, keeping to one side (preferably the right) so as to let cyclists pass safely.
SHARE THE PATH!
Your story on the camino is not my story. Although not knocked down, I have come very close a number of times by speeding, disrespectful bicyclists. The majority never used a bell nor their voice to shout a warning. It seemed to happen more often on weekends and appeared to be mostly Spanish men out for pleasure rides.I have been knocked down twice by bicyclists, once seriously injuring my ankle when I was 3, and once injuring my wrist when I was a bit older. I have never come across a mean or unsafe cyclist on the camino however. They have been considerate, friendly, sweet, and sometimes pitiful when hauling their bikes up a steep rocky slope. Yes let's all be considerate of each other.
@4 Eyes didn't say that they were knocked down on the Camino, but as a young child.Your story on the camino is not my story. Although not knocked down, I have come very close a number of times by speeding, disrespectful bicyclists. The majority never used a bell nor their voice to shout a warning. It seemed to happen more often on weekends and appeared to be mostly Spanish men out for pleasure rides.
I have been knocked down twice by bicyclists, once seriously injuring my ankle when I was 3, and once injuring my wrist when I was a bit older.
I know, Trecile, but he later indicated in his post that all of the cyclists he saw while walking the camino were were considerate and friendly.@4 Eyes didn't say that they were knocked down on the Camino, but as a young child.
One can only hope that cyclists will use their bells and give plenty of warning!
I tell you what, how about i use the big airhorn țhat i have to blast at lorries? That should startle everyone within 500 metres. Or I could just continue As I have always done with a polite good day in whatever language seems best. Shouting is not necessary.Although not knocked down, I have come very close a number of times by speeding, disrespectful bicyclists. The majority never used a bell nor their voice to shout a warning. It seemed to happen more often on weekends and appeared to be mostly Spanish men out for pleasure rides.
RJM seems to be unaware that almost the whole Camino Francés is officially a shared route open to walkers, cyclists and horse riders. The equivalent in England would be called a bridleway and have a specific legal definition as a shared path. The pictures of the short new section descending from Monte Gozo to the bridge over the AP-9 motorway show it to be 3m wide and quite capable of accommodating walkers, cyclists and even the occasional horse (though in four trips along the CF I have only ever seen one donkey). There is enough room for pedestrians to walk two abreast, ideally on the right, yet still leave room for cyclists to pass safely.I am afraid that it for lack of better terms just an unrealistic request. Look how narrow that path is. Pilgrims quite often walk in small and sometimes large groups, chatting, taking photos and engrossed in the moment. That is what walking pilgrims do. Joyously. Unreasonable to expect people living in the moment, a joyful moment, to march to Santiago single file, left right-left. Hup two three four...what are we walking for....dress up that column lad! Be mindful! Be sensible! There may be 100+ kilograms of human and metal two-wheeled machine bearing down on you at 24 kilometres an hour! lol.
I am sorry, as much as it would be nice for the path to be shareable, it is not designed for both.
Well said, though the suggestion not to use a bell is controversial. My partner and I disagreed on this subject. In my series of European cycling guides, I encourage cyclists to always use a bell politely when coming upon walkers from behind and if this gets no response to consider a shout as well. She felt that as walkers might consider the ringing of a bell to be rude it was best to use one only in potentially dangerous situations. When talking to walkers, which I often do, I do get conflicting comments. Some feel that ringing a bell is impolite while others complain about cyclists who do not ring their bells. The answer is tolerance on behalf of both walkers and cyclists.I tell you what, how about i use the big airhorn țhat i have to blast at lorries? That should startle everyone within 500 metres. Or I could just continue As I have always done with a polite good day in whatever language seems best. Shouting is not necessary.
Because I am getting bored with this lack of toleration and perpetual complaining by walkers. I've walked and cycled caminos, walked on my own and with a donkey. Never been attacked by a bike or a dog. I've spent the last two weeks cycling in France, not on a St. James route and pedestrians and cyclists seem to manage very well together. The main problem for cyclists is when walkers spread across the path paying no attention to their surroundings and then freeze like startled rabbits at a polite ding of a bell. I have seen that cyclists who want to ride fast tend to use roads rather than cycle tracks, anyway.
So please can we drop the automatic instruction on using a bell?
Thank you.
Of course you will. Officially the CF is a joint use track to be enjoyed by walkers, cyclists and horse riders. Just as when you walk along a road you have to watch out for motor vehicles, so on the CF you need to be aware of cyclists.I see we still have to watch out for cyclists though.
Your story on the camino is not my story. Although not knocked down, I have come very close a number of times by speeding, disrespectful bicyclists. The majority never used a bell nor their voice to shout a warning. It seemed to happen more often on weekends and appeared to be mostly Spanish men out for pleasure rides.
One can only hope that cyclists will use their bells and give plenty of warning!
Marbe2 might hope that 'cyclists will stay on the road' but the law does not discriminate against cyclists. The CF is officially a multi-use route for walkers, cyclists and horse riders. Many cyclists, particularly the faster ones, prefer the road. Others like the challenge of following the Camino route on their bikes and it is their right to do so. What we need is more understanding between the various types of trail user.As we know many cyclists do not ring the bells. I hope when the camino is crowded Again, cyclists will stay on the road, or get off the bikes and walk them down. On this bob sled section it could potentially be dangerous otherwise.
Exactly. The Camino is a shared track, available equally to all kinds of user be they walkers, cyclists or horse riders. But, tongue in cheek here, you have hit upon something which could bring many long distance walkers and cyclists together. 100km walkers (from Saria) and 200km riders (from Ponferrada) are often seen as short term carpet-bagging interlopers who clog up the path into Santiago for true pilgrims. Get rid of them, by denying them a Compostela, and there would be ample space for walkers and cyclists to share the new track down from Monte de Gozo, which after all was the original theme of this thread. (note; I do not hold this view myself. I believe the path should be open to all walkers and riders no matter how short their journey).Walking or riding is only significant because these are the recognised means by which people must complete the last l00 km or 200km on a particular route to obtain a Compostela. Not because somehow it confers some special right to be on a particular track across the landscape.
Quite aware it is a shared path, whether a good idea to be or not. I have walked the Frances and other routes six times. Nice try with the condescending chatter, though. lolRJM seems to be unaware that almost the whole Camino Francés is officially a shared route open to walkers, cyclists and horse riders. The equivalent in England would be called a bridleway and have a specific legal definition as a shared path. The pictures of the short new section descending from Monte Gozo to the bridge over the AP-9 motorway show it to be 3m wide and quite capable of accommodating walkers, cyclists and even the occasional horse (though in four trips along the CF I have only ever seen one donkey). There is enough room for pedestrians to walk two abreast, ideally on the right, yet still leave room for cyclists to pass safely.
According to the cathedral arrival figures, there are approximately 11 walkers on the CF for every one cyclist. About half of these, including most who like to ride fast, choose to follow the road alternative. So on the track there are more than 20 walkers to every cyclist. It should not be difficult to co-exist amicably. Is it unreasonable, as RJM suggests, for walkers to be considerate towards cyclists?
SHARE THE PATH!
Mutual tolerance is best served by sincere and clear communication, offered without sarcasm or dismissiveness. Mostly, I think we are doing pretty well.Because I am getting bored with this lack of toleration and perpetual complaining by walkers.
I tell you what, how about i use the big airhorn țhat i have to blast at lorries? That should startle everyone within 500 metres. Or I could just continue As I have always done with a polite good day in whatever language seems best. Shouting is not necessary.
Because I am getting bored with this lack of toleration and perpetual complaining by walkers. I've walked and cycled caminos, walked on my own and with a donkey. Never been attacked by a bike or a dog. I've spent the last two weeks cycling in France, not on a St. James route and pedestrians and cyclists seem to manage very well together. The main problem for cyclists is when walkers spread across the path paying no attention to their surroundings and then freeze like startled rabbits at a polite ding of a bell. I have seen that cyclists who want to ride fast tend to use roads rather than cycle tracks, anyway.
So please can we drop the automatic instruction on using a bell?
Thank you.
I see two issues here: crowded shared paths on the Camino Frances, and a lack of common expectations and practices when on shared paths. When I learned to ride a bicycle, at the age of five, I learned to ride carefully on a shared path, and I eventually graduated to riding on the side of a road, knowing that I was in danger from motor vehicles, so must be always aware, and that a pedestrian in my way was a hazard to me as well as to them. I had the greater power to avoid a collision: by warning the walker of my arrival and by preparing to slow down, and to stop, if necessary. From my experience, Spanish cyclists have not been educated to warn walkers on shared paths of their arrival. As a walker, it is pointless to tell riders on this forum what we want them to do. And Spanish riders are unlikely to change their practices in spaces where they feel at home and are obeying the rules of the road, as they learned them. The only suggestion which I could make is to remain very alert for the silence and speed of approaching cyclists, and to stay to the far right of shared paths, as much as possible. A warning would be nice, but cannot be expected.
Oh good. Glad you told me that.Mutual tolerance is best served by sincere and clear communication, offered without sarcasm or dismissiveness
Perhaps you can help me understand what I should do. When I hear a bell behind me, I try not to move abruptly either to the left or the right. Depending on the situation, I figure that the bicyclist can see exactly where I am, and it is better to let them avoid me rather than me making a sudden movement into their path. I try to be predictable. In some situations I might even stop. I cannot jerk my head around to make a quick judgement in time.when walkers... freeze like startled rabbits at a polite ding of a bell.
I'm beginning to think that the fancy cross country trekking bikes don't even come with bells. We were passed by a lady in Portugal while walking, she was doing the best she could but had no bell. "Ding, ding! Ding, ding!" Locally almost none of the bike riders use bells. Nor do they call out "On your left!" much. They don't seem to understand that by the time the walker hears them, they're only about 5 feet away and approaching rapidly. We just avoid walking on the hike and bike path locally during weekend days when the parking lot is packed to the gills with bike riders' cars.One can only hope that cyclists will use their bells and give plenty of warning!
I don't think bells come installed on most bicycles, except perhaps a child's bike. You must add it.the fancy cross country trekking bikes don't even come with bells
You're shouting.Of course you will. Officially the CF is a joint use track to be enjoyed by walkers, cyclists and horse riders. Just as when you walk along a road you have to watch out for motor vehicles, so on the CF you need to be aware of cyclists.
SHARE THE PATH!
Thanks for the response.here is my best advice.
I have never seen this distinction before, worded like that. But I think you are talking about a "passing protocol"? I.e. a group should leave room on the left, for any single walker (or cyclist) to pass? Then, after passing, it would be polite for the single walker or cyclist to move to the right again so the next fast walker or cyclist can pass on the left.In countries that drive on the right a group walks on the right, a single person on the left.
No, they do not. I had one cyclist tell me that adding a bell was adding weight to his bikeI'm beginning to think that the fancy cross country trekking bikes don't even come with bells.
I agree with your post, but think you are giving the Spanish bicyclists the benefit of the doubt regarding their training. It takes no training imo to see as an adult that you are possibly going to plow into a walker at a high speed if you do not give them warning. Vehicles all have horns to avoid collisions. It's just plain common sense, not training.And Spanish riders are unlikely to change their practices in spaces where they feel at home and are obeying the rules of the road, as they learned them. The only suggestion which I could make is to remain very alert for the silence and speed of approaching cyclists, and to stay to the far right of shared paths, as much as possible. A warning would be nice, but cannot be expected.
I was in this situation on an early part of the Camino de Madrid last fall. Only the fact that there were few persons on the trail: cyclists or walkers, and I was extremely alert, helped me to avoid collisions. I think that the cyclists who speed along such paths enjoy the speed and the excitement of the ride, but do not consider the possibility of a collision with an unseen walker. In your case, the cyclist was able to react quickly enough to avoid injury to anyone else. but this cannot always be the case.walking uphill on a path consisting of many large stones of gravel and ruts. We were rounding a curve
Yes, they are certainly enjoying themselves! It's more like mountain biking with a few jumps thrown in. I try to remind myself that I am a guest in their country and that helps when my attitude starts to get the best of me.I think that the cyclists who speed along such paths enjoy the speed and the excitement of the ride, but do not consider the possibility of a collision with an unseen walker.
This is a good point.Of course the average cyclist will try to use the smoother bits, but that isn't in the highway code.
Obviously it is best if we all keep some situational awareness.
My issue is not with the "polite" bells. It is with those who use neither bells nor a polite good day or anything else for that matter.I tell you what, how about i use the big airhorn țhat i have to blast at lorries? That should startle everyone within 500 metres. Or I could just continue As I have always done with a polite good day in whatever language seems best. Shouting is not necessary.
Because I am getting bored with this lack of toleration and perpetual complaining by walkers. I've walked and cycled caminos, walked on my own and with a donkey. Never been attacked by a bike or a dog. I've spent the last two weeks cycling in France, not on a St. James route and pedestrians and cyclists seem to manage very well together. The main problem for cyclists is when walkers spread across the path paying no attention to their surroundings and then freeze like startled rabbits at a polite ding of a bell. I have seen that cyclists who want to ride fast tend to use roads rather than cycle tracks, anyway.
So please can we drop the automatic instruction on using a bell?
Thank you.
I've never heard about such a "passing protocol" for pedestrians on footpaths that are also used by cyclists. Nor do I have any intention to adopt it. I lived in quite a happy symbiosis with other users on the paths to Compostela. No bikes or horses ran into me from the front or from behind, there were no near misses, I stepped to the right or the left of a narrow path when I heard them coming and my choice was determined either by how I felt or what seemed most appropriate or by what the ground was like to the right or left of the path. In general, my choice also depends on how wide a shared path is and whether I expect bikers to come from both directions or mainly from behind or mainly coming towards me.So we seem to be saying that both walkers and cyclists should keep to the right of a shared path (assuming we are in a country where cars drive on the right) and basically follow the same practices as cars would on the road - keeping to the right and allowing space where possible for passing on the left.
a group walks on the right,
This is brand new to me - which is why I was trying to figure out what @Barbara meant. Next time I am marching along the road leading a group, I will know what to do! It sounds like it might have a military origin, with soldiers marching along with their vehicles!Of it is a procession or an organised group with a leader, they actually have to walk on the road and on the right
After walking so much on Roman and Medieval roads last year, I find myself imagining moving aside for legions advancing from behind. Some things you don't argue against.Next time I am marching along the road leading a group, I will know what to do! It sounds like it might have a military origin, with soldiers marching along with their vehicles!
I think that many pilgrims from countries where they drive on the left get confused about this, along with people from right side driving countries who never learned this rule. I remember learning as a child that pedestrians should walk facing oncoming traffic, so that they can see an oncoming car from a distance.To be clear: when you walk on a road in Spain, i.e. used by cars, that is not in an urban area and you are a single pedestrian and there is no footpath, the side of the road that you walk on is not yours to choose. The laws on road use and road safety stipulate that you walk on the left side of the road, unless reasons of safety and visibility require to be on the right side, for example in a narrow curve or bend. Based on my personal observations, many pilgrims seem to unaware of these laws
Would this be a procession that has been granted permission to use the road in this way?Of it is a procession or an organised group with a leader, they actually have to walk on the road and on the right;
My Spanish is so limited that I actually cannot find regulations about slow moving groups or "formations" on carriageways; also, this may be regulated at the regional level. But I think you find similar rules throughout continental Europe. I did find the Spanish regulation about having to walk on the left side of the road as a pedestrian outside built-up areas.Would this be a procession that has been granted permission to use the road in this way?
I agree. I now remember one occasion, on a flat straight road with some car traffic but not much, somewhere in the middle of the Camino Frances, when all the pilgrims ahead of us started to move to the right side to walk there. Although we knew that it was not correct and against traffic regulations, we decided, in the interest of making it easier for drivers, to also walk on the right side. ☺I think that many pilgrims from countries where they drive on the left get confused about this, along with people from right side driving countries who never learned this rule.
Also applies to horses, led or ridden. I'm not sure how it applies to cycle paths though, just stay awake is probably best.This is brand new to me - which is why I was trying to figure out what @Barbara meant. Next time I am marching along the road leading a group, I will know what to do! It sounds like it might have a military origin, with soldiers marching along with their vehicles!
Interesting, I've consistently heard that, when walking on paths, in countries that drive on the right, pedestrians (single or groups) walk on the right and allow people to pass them on the left. However, when walking on roads where there is no sidewalk, pedestrians (one or more), should walk on the left facing traffic as a general rule.In countries that drive on the right a group walks on the right, a single person on the left.
I always walk opposite traffic on the camino. I want to see so I can get out of the way if needed, ASAP.Interesting, I've consistently heard that, when walking on paths, in countries that drive on the right, pedestrians (single or groups) walk on the right and allow people to pass them on the left. However, when walking on roads where there is no sidewalk, pedestrians (one or more), should walk on the left facing traffic as a general rule.
I generally do. Sometimes I may not, for example heading into a blind turn, or when I am only walking by the road for a short distance and would need to cross the road (and traffic) twice to do so, or if I am climbing a steep hill and likely to be more visible to traffic coming from behind than oncoming traffic.I always walk opposite traffic on the camino. I want to see so I can get out of the way if needed, ASAP.
Interesting, I've consistently heard that, when walking on paths, in countries that drive on the right, pedestrians (single or groups) walk on the right and allow people to pass them on the left. However, when walking on roads where there is no sidewalk, pedestrians (one or more), should walk on the left facing traffic as a general rule.
This is a good point.
If you're walking along and a cyclist needs to pass, please understand that your feet navigate those rocks and potholes more easily than someone can with a loaded bike. Considerstion goes both ways and is essential even - especially! - if we feel provoked. And mutual awareness is definitely a mutual responsibility. It's not us against them...we're all in this together.
It's relatively easy to move aside and try to be considerate on a senda or dirt road. The problems come where there's nowhere for either party to go, and i don't know if there are good answers here.
What seems to be rudeness to the more vulnerable party: cyclist or pedestrian, is often, I think, largely the natural lack of attention of the stronger or faster person to the more vulnerable. If I am a cyclist, I am looking for cars, as sources of extreme danger to my safety, and less to pedestrians (although speeding cyclists may be injured in collisions with pedestrians). This may be why shared paths or routes can be dangerous to the slower party. In general, our attention is focused on those who are dangerous to us. And of course this danger can be exacerbated by the desire of pilgrims on camino routes to walk and share with other pilgrims, resulting in less attention to the traffic. We walkers are on the vulnerable end of the traffic race, and should do what we can to keep ourselves and our companions safe: stay alert, don't fill the whole width of a path, perhaps even walk alone, with arrangements for community time at the next coffee stop. And of course some of us will feel safer walking on less-travelled paths. Buen camino to all.I think the inevitable generalizations we make based on one experience won’t likely hold up in other experiences. Coming from a college town, my vantage point (whether I am on a bike or in a car) is that college students are the most rude and most unsafe pedestrians in the universe. But as a walking peregrina, I turn my complaints to the cyclists on the camino.
The complaints that walking pilgrims make about cyclists are the same as the ones I would make as a cyclist vis a vis cars. I ride a lot out in the country, and I have had encounters with cars that go too fast, don’t leave me much space, and are frequently rude.
Not sure where that leaves us, except to say that we can complain all we want, but in the final analysis, I think rude cyclists on the camino are just as inevitable as snorers in albergues. If I don’t look out for cyclists when I’m walking, or if I don’t look out for cars when I’m riding my bike, the joke may be on me, even though my heirs may be able to monetize my tragedy with a lawsuit.
What seems to be rudeness to the more vulnerable party: cyclist or pedestrian, is often, I think, largely the natural lack of attention of the stronger or faster person to the more vulnerable.
Depending on the laws of the place, a bike may already have this obligation to "stop and render aid." It goes along with being treated as a wheeled vehicle in traffic...bike riders and motorbike riders seem to be confused about the whole stopping for stop signs and traffic lights thing, also unsafe lane changing...I think I'd want to take a look-see informally at the traffic laws of a place before undertaking a bike tour of it. But it's been so long since I sat a bike I probably can't even keep it upright any more.If a car hits a bike, the law requires them to stop....otherwise is it not hit and run? Yet bikes hit pedestrians, or force them off the road resulting in injury. Yet some do not even stop to make sure the walker is OK? Maybe if there was a similar hit and run law cyclists would slow down and warn those on foot they are approaching and, of course, stop to check on the victim.
I think the inevitable generalizations we make based on one experience won’t likely hold up in other experiences. Coming from a college town, my vantage point (whether I am on a bike or in a car) is that college students are the most rude and most unsafe pedestrians in the universe. But as a walking peregrina, I turn my complaints to the cyclists on the camino.
The complaints that walking pilgrims make about cyclists are the same as the ones I would make as a cyclist vis a vis cars. I ride a lot out in the country, and I have had encounters with cars that go too fast, don’t leave me much space, and are frequently rude.
Not sure where that leaves us, except to say that we can complain all we want, but in the final analysis, I think rude cyclists on the camino are just as inevitable as snorers in albergues. If I don’t look out for cyclists when I’m walking, or if I don’t look out for cars when I’m riding my bike, the joke may be on me, even though my heirs may be able to monetize my tragedy with a lawsuit.
Growing up in 'the States' I was taught to walk on the side facing on-coming traffic -- ie, the left side.
I've been knocked down by joyriding cyclists three times over the years, including once on that dangerous rocky slope approaching Zubiri. Very fortunate not to have been seriously injured..... But only once did the offending cyclist -- a Frenchman, God bless him! -- even bother to look back, let alone stop to check on my condition. The others just carried on.... I confess that I harbor some serious lingering resentment of Camino cyclists, in consequence.
I suppose that using a wooden lollypop stick attached to the rear wheel to cause a continuous noise is classed as too childish or noise pollution. I can't use the dangling taffeta from my handlebar ends anymore since they are blocked up with rear view mirrors.I tell you what, how about i use the big airhorn țhat i have to blast at lorries? That should startle everyone within 500 metres. Or I could just continue As I have always done with a polite good day in whatever language seems best. Shouting is not necessary.
Because I am getting bored with this lack of toleration and perpetual complaining by walkers. I've walked and cycled caminos, walked on my own and with a donkey. Never been attacked by a bike or a dog. I've spent the last two weeks cycling in France, not on a St. James route and pedestrians and cyclists seem to manage very well together. The main problem for cyclists is when walkers spread across the path paying no attention to their surroundings and then freeze like startled rabbits at a polite ding of a bell. I have seen that cyclists who want to ride fast tend to use roads rather than cycle tracks, anyway.
So please can we drop the automatic instruction on using a bell?
Thank you.
I sympathise but cannot agree with this statement. I am sure you would agree that a cyclist needs to be aware of what is going on around them at all times. The same must apply to pedestrians too. If you do not have awareness, it would be highly dangerous to walk anywhere let alone 800km across Spain. Someone without basic awareness should be safely confined in a home for their own safety. They could wander into traffic, walk over a cliff, trip over the kerb or stand in the path of a cyclist. While this applies everywhere, it is even more important on shared routes such as the Camino.My friend’s husband died on the camino just a few kms from Santiago. He was cycling, she was walking; he had a heart attack. A year or so later I was approaching the spot where he had collapsed, and I was in a very emotional and saddened state as I pictured in my mind what had happened there. All of a sudden I heard a yell behind me, and a cyclist just missed crashing into me. In a dazed state I just burst into tears. Cyclists just don’t realize that walkers aren’t always “aware” of what is going on around them.
I am sorry to disagree. The Camino is not just a footpath, it is a trail for use by people on foot, horse and bicycle. It is a footpath, bridleway and cycle track all rolled into one. In medieval times it was just walkers and horse riders. Indeed, if this forum had existed 800 years ago it would probably have been full of comments from walkers complaining about people on horseback. The bicycle is a darned new fangled invention, dating from the late-19th century, but since much of the modern Camino is a late-20th century resurrection of the medieval route, bicycles are quite at home here.I can understand cyclists using the Camino path where it is wide and paved but in many places it is a narrow dirt path - to me obviously a footpath. Often close to and essentially parallel with a quiet paved rural road or dedicated cycle way. I don’t understand the need to use the footpath when there is a more suitable alternative.
And as for speed - keep that for the Vuelta or Le Tour. Which are both on paved roads.
Not so. I have to agree with @Kanga. Medieval pilgrims and other travellers on the Camino Frances for example would have travelled together on reasonably wide roads. They would not have searched for narrow footpaths to be away from traffic and be able to enjoy more peace and more pleasant scenery as we do. We have a lot more options now. The trail from Pamplona up to the Alto del Perdon and down again on the other side is a good example. That narrow trail is for people on foot. The national road to the right is for bicycles. The motorway to the right is for cars.The Camino is not just a footpath, it is a trail for use by people on foot, horse and bicycle. It is a footpath, bridleway and cycle track all rolled into one. In medieval times it was just walkers and horse riders. Indeed, if this forum had existed 800 years ago it would probably have been full of comments from walkers complaining about people on horseback.
You have the right location. It is my understanding that a blue and white sign showing a pedestrian signifies pedestrians only, just like one at the entrance to a motorway showing a car means motor vehicles only. So previously, being advised by the sign that they could not go down the steps, cyclists did follow the road bearing right downhill. At the bottom, they had to cross the N-634 main road and follow it cycling on the right. Upon reaching the re-constructed bridge over the AP-9, cyclists then had to re-cross the road to reach the multi-use track on the left over the bridge. However it is all redundant now as the steps have been replaced with the new track.We are talking about this location near Monte do Gozo, are we? There's a sign for people on foot to warn them of the steps ahead but nothing for cyclists ☺. They can turn right, then turn left into the N-634. Looking at it from Streetview I don't understand why they don't create a bike trail on the right of the N-634 and over the bridge. It looks as if there is space for it. Pity that we were not alerted when the plans for the pasarela were published and local people had a chance to view them and give an opinion.
And let's see what the new sign will say ...
View attachment 83854
There are people on off-road bikes who think speed on a narrow trail is just fine, in fact the point. These are the only people on the camino I've personally had close and quite scary encounters with - in each case local MAMILs pretending to be in the UCI mountain bike world cup. This has nothing to do with the camino. I've only had cordial interactions with genuine bicigrinos, who as a matter of good sense tend to avoid the gnarly bits.And as for speed - keep that for the Vuelta or Le Tour. Which are both on paved roads.
I have no argument with fun and challenge, but not at the expense of the safety of others. Mountain bikers can do whatever they want to endanger themselves as cyclists, but should (please) leave the rest of us out of it.The other 50%, who relish the fun of off-road riding and the challenge of doing this on an historic route, want to follow the trail as much as possible.
Same. The route today is an estimate only.Why people believe that the combination of roads and paths marked on their maps and marked by yellow arrows is the only Camino de Santiago and the only ""historical"" one and why bikers believe that they must ride exactly on the trails where pilgrims walk today is something I fail to understand.
Dude, the Camino is a footpath, and you gotta stop yelling.I am sorry to disagree. The Camino is not just a footpath, it is a trail for use by people on foot, horse and bicycle. It is a footpath, bridleway and cycle track all rolled into one. In medieval times it was just walkers and horse riders. Indeed, if this forum had existed 800 years ago it would probably have been full of comments from walkers complaining about people on horseback. The bicycle is a darned new fangled invention, dating from the late-19th century, but since much of the modern Camino is a late-20th century resurrection of the medieval route, bicycles are quite at home here.
Not all cyclists are the same. Those who wish to ride the route as quickly as possible and those who are not up for the challenge of off-road riding use the roads. There are no exact figures as to how many cyclists are in these two categories, but my experience leads me to think it is about 50%. The other 50%, who relish the fun of off-road riding and the challenge of doing this on an historic route, want to follow the trail as much as possible. In this respect they are no different to walkers who also wish to follow the 'authentic' trail and not walk on roads all day. However, there are a few places where I believe for safety reasons it is better that cyclists take an alternative route. The descents from the Alto del Perdón to Uterga and from Manjarin to El Acebo, plus the ascent from Valcarce through La Faba to La Laguna, are obvious candidates. In my guide to Cycling the Camino de Santiago (Cicerone Press ISBN9781852849696) I advise against using the trail for these sections and describe the alternative routes in detail. I cannot stop people riding them however. In my view they are mad to ride these sections, but they have every right to do so and long may this freedom last.
Cyclists are outnumbered about twenty to one on the trail. To progress at all, they need to be aware of walkers and treat them with respect. Bells are a legal requirement on bicycles in Spain, but I cannot make people use them. I always use mine and often shout a polite hola! if I think I have not been heard. My former partner on the other hand feared that walkers may think it rude if she rang her bell and hardly ever used it. But she did ride very slowly past other pilgrims. The important thing is tolerance and sharing between all trail users. False assertions, particularly from a moderator of this forum who should know better, that the Camino is 'obviously a footpath' do not help this tolerance.
SHARE THE PATH!
I got my motorvehicle driver's licence long ago and some of the signs you see today didn't exist at the time. I'm not sure what the sign means other than "stairs ahead". I was intrigued to learn that Spain has these signs ☺ :It is my understanding that a blue and white sign showing a pedestrian signifies pedestrians only, just like one at the entrance to a motorway showing a car means motor vehicles only.
I first cycled the CF in 1995. After following the road from SJPdP over the Ibañeta pass, I then went off-road through the Pyrenean foothills from Burguete to the Alto de Erro. It was horrendous. Unbridged streams to ford and mud everywhere. I had to stop every few minutes to free cloying mud from my brakes and mudguards. I abandoned my plan to do the whole route off-road. and followed the roads through Pamplona and Estella as far as the Montes de Oca. Here I tried off-roading again and this time it worked. The better drainage of the limestone and chalklands of the meseta gave trouble-free riding and I continued through the green lanes of Galica to Santiago. I met very few other people, just a few walkers and the occasional cyclist. At that time many of the routes through the fields were new or non-existant and there were very few sendas beside the main roads (the only senda I recall was between Frómista and Carrión des los Condes and that had only just been opened). For long distances, walkers trudged along the edge of the roads.@Mike Wells I repeat what I said earlier. When I walked in 2001 I don't recall any cyclists on the footpath. Cyclists had maps showing them the best cycling routes. Maybe there was the occasional person who wanted to make their ride uncomfortable, but I don't remember them.
One of the books that inspired me to walk that first camino was by Bettina Selby, called "Pilgrim's Road; A Journey to Santiago de Compostela". It detailed her bicycle ride from Vézelay (first published in 1994). I no longer have a copy, but I'm sure she rode on roads, not the footpath. She had researched the route using the CSJ library and historic documents. Quiet country roads and laneways whenever possible but I don't think she (or any cyclist in those days) even considered riding on the footpath. And even when the road was busy. She wore a bright red sweater with a large shell emblazoned on the back, so as to alert lorry drivers of her status.
I assume they perform the same purpose as half barrier chicanes where cycle tracks reach roads; that is to slow cyclists down. Personally I hate such artificial obstructions, but I do see that they serve a purpose and have safety benefits for walkers and cyclists alike. More evidence that this whole construction was built with cyclists in mind as in most European countries speed inhibiting measures are de rigour in obtaining planning permission for new cycle tracks.When I looked at the photo of the model of the new footbridge/footpath near Monte do Gozo I thought it showed people who were walking down and in the middle there were two riders on white horses. I now see that these are rocks and people are shown as walking up or down. The pasarela is meant both for pilgrims and locals, according to the local newspapers, and I think the Monte do Gozo area is also being further developed as a leisure area for the Compostelanos/as.
So genuine question: these three right angle turns at the beginning and end - is that a good arrangement for cyclists?
View attachment 83857
Says who ☺?riding what is now one of Europe's best long distance off-road cycle routes
I am intrigued too. The only place on the Camino where such a sign may be necessary is where the track crosses the N-111 by bridge between Viana and Logroño. I did not see one, but I was not looking. I am guessing here, but as the old sign on the descent from Monte de Gozo does not show a bike being carried, could it be that the stairs were for pedestrians only.I got my motorvehicle driver's licence long ago and some of the signs you see today didn't exist at the time. I'm not sure what the sign means other than "stairs ahead". I was intrigued to learn that Spain has these signs ☺ :
View attachment 83856
I agree. I now remember one occasion, on a flat straight road with some car traffic but not much, somewhere in the middle of the Camino Frances, when all the pilgrims ahead of us started to move to the right side to walk there. Although we knew that it was not correct and against traffic regulations, we decided, in the interest of making it easier for drivers, to also walk on the right side. ☺
Therefore, good luck with trying to introduce and to enforce a catalogue of voluntary rules for walkers and bikers on trails in such an international environment. ☺
Yes, I am familiar with this since age 12 or so. You probably went to the mall but we European countryside teenage girls walked along the road with our friends on Sunday afternoons. Not as many cars then as now and I think this has grown out of fashion.i believe this is standard walkers ng prqctice has n mst countries.
I am aware of route proposed by Eurovélo for EV3 and have studied it closely. Like most Eurovélo routes, at this stage much of the route is wishful thinking. Initially it is a road route from the Ibañeta pass, mostly following the old national N- roads that evolved from the Roman via Lactea and the medieval Camino, that is the N-135, N-111 and N-120 until it reaches the meseta after Burgos. There are exceptions. mostly caused by the A-12 motorway. Where this has usurped the old N road and cyclists are forbidden to ride on the motorway, deviations are made either on the Camino route itself (as on the exit from Pamplona or between Logroño and Navarette) or on local minor roads. Where the motorway is incomplete and heavy traffic is forced to use the old N- road (as between Santo Domingo de la Calzada and Burgos) lengthy detours are shown. From Burgos the EV3 follows the off-road Camino over the meseta to Frómista and on through León, Astorga and Ponferrada to O Cebreiro. Once in Galicia, roads are re-joined following the old N-633 to Palas de Rei. From here it should follow the N-547 to Santiago, but where the parallel A-54 motorway is incomplete between Palas de Rei and Arzua local roads and parts of the Camino are followed instead. Finally the Camino is followed into Santiago.Says who ☺?
There is actually a European long-distance route to Compostela in development by the EuroVelo people. However, as you can see from their website most of this EV3 in Spain is still under development and only one section around Burgos is marked with EuroVelo signs for this EV3 (in yellow) but not yet certified (in green). Some of you may have seen them or the signs for another long distance cycling route, the EV1 route which crosses the same area but then turns south and eventually ends in Portugal.
View attachment 83858
The other 50%, who relish the fun of off-road riding and the challenge of doing this on an historic route, want to follow the trail as much as possible. In this respect they are no different to walkers who also wish to follow the 'authentic' trail and not walk on roads all day.
It may surprise you, but I entirely agree. Indeed I point this fact out in my guide to Cycling the Camino Frances. There are even places where to travel the medieval Camino would mean following the central reservation of the A-12 motorway! The trouble is large numbers (probably the vast majority) of both pedestrian and cycling pilgrims are not aware of the effect of 20th century route improvements. They prefer to believe that by following the current waymarked route they are travelling in the path of the pilgrims of old.Not to argue one way or another on cyclists' use of the unpaved paths but just to note that, in many places, the "authentic" trail is underneath the paved roads. It was the routes that people were walking and riding between villages that eventually turned into roads, that were later paved, then broadened and expanded to the highways of today. When those highways became dangerous for pedestrians, other parallel routes were found for pilgrims. But, much as we like to think that we are walking literally on the footsteps of medieval pilgrims, likely those footsteps are buried under tarmac. Leaving aside consideration of the fun of off-road cycling, if you really want to traverse the historic route, you are probably more likely to be there on the roads.
I sympathise but cannot agree with this statement. I am sure you would agree that a cyclist needs to be aware of what is going on around them at all times. The same must apply to pedestrians too. If you do not have awareness, it would be highly dangerous to walk anywhere let alone 800km across Spain. Someone without basic awareness should be safely confined in a home for their own safety. They could wander into traffic, walk over a cliff, trip over the kerb or stand in the path of a cyclist. While this applies everywhere, it is even more important on shared routes such as the Camino.
SHARE THE PATH!
...and if you are, cycle the fabulous Via de la Plata, where pilgrim numbers are low, and interaction between walkers and cyclists is a welcome event in my experience.There is quite a lot of off road cycling available in Spain without using a pilgrimage route, if you aren't actually looking for a pilgrimage...
It's explicitly a pilgrimage route. Most of us are on foot, some of us are on bikes, and a few have horses or donkeys. The fact that foot pilgrims have to dodge lunatics on mountain bikes indulging in a fun challenge is a sad part of the experience, and is likely behind the pushback you're getting, Mike. I would doubt that any of us who have had close calls or collisions are happy with the thought that you're encouraging people on mountain bikes to go for it. I know I'm not.As I wrote in an earlier post, some cyclists prefer the roads and other like the challenge and fun of riding what is now one of Europe's best long distance off-road cycle routes.
There is quite a lot of off road cycling available in Spain without using a pilgrimage route, if you aren't actually looking for a pilgrimage.
10 x times like..... Ooops. I said I’d stay off this thread!Nothing in the statement naming the Camino Frances as a UNESCO World Heritage site mentions
It's explicitly a pilgrimage route. Most of us are on foot, some of us are on bikes, and a few have horses or donkeys. The fact that foot pilgrims have to dodge lunatics on mountain bikes indulging in a fun challenge is a sad part of the experience, and is likely behind the pushback you're getting, Mike. I would doubt that any of us who have had close calls or collisions are happy with the thought that you're encouraging people on mountain bikes to go for it. I know I'm not.
I have no quarrel with cylists in general on the way, having once been a triatlete and avid cyclist myself. It's just that the mixed use does not always work out well when the cyclists are not careful. In my experience, solo bicigrinos are generally quite sensitive to foot pilgrims. It's the mountain bikers who can create 'interesting experiences.'
As you have admitted about the authentic way, most of it is now under asphalt. So a cycle pilgrim wanting to follow the ancient camino would be unlikely to come into conflict with walkers on the narrower footpaths along the way.
Barbara has a very good point when she says:
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?