- Time of past OR future Camino
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But whilst money does not buy happiness it can certainly solve a lot of problems.
Peregrino_tomIt’s neither simple nor a truth.
People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.
Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.
We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination.
That would be more than nice, but I don't think it's realistic.We all owe many things to each other.
Which of course is not true - you're right, Tom. It's silly.Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it.
Absolutely agree! Very well said.What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
Not one of Rousseau's. It is from a poem by John Donne.Personally I echo Rosseau - no man is an island
Donne is so cool. Good clarification, thanks! Hemingway also took a Donne line for a book title, and left out the response line that puts it into perspective.Not one of Rosseau's. It is from a poem by John Donne.
Actually John Donne from "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming). And just to show precisely how pedantic one can be after a heavy night: Rousseau. Otherwise I agree 100%. Society consists of and depends on mutual obligations - how do penguins survive blizzards?The whole concept has been tested to death (literally) with COVID. Some societies would accept a duty to others. Other societies were polar opposites.
Many times a view is conditional.
Personally I echo Rosseau - no man is an island.
This is one persons approach to life.It’s neither simple nor a truth.
People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.
Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.
We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
In a strictly materialistic sense, maybe. But Covid taught me: money can't buy health.In an interview many years ago, the British actor Joan Collins, in response to a question from a journalist about whether money could buy happiness, responded: “Young man, if you believe money can’t buy just anything, you are shopping in the wrong places”
There was a purpose to writing certain words using rhyme and rhythm.Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming)
Thank you @dick bird, I am regularly better informed by your contributions.Actually John Donne from "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions and Seuerall Steps in my Sickness – Meditation XVII", a published series of sermons (not poems as the internet persists in claiming). And just to show precisely how pedantic one can be after a heavy night: Rousseau. Otherwise I agree 100%. Society consists of and depends on mutual obligations - how do penguins survive blizzards?
Money is one of the biggest factors in driving health. Take a look at the life expectancies of the poorest nations, or take a look at the health outcomes of societies poorest people!In a strictly materialistic sense, maybe. But Covid taught me: money can't buy health.
Donne is so cool. Good clarification, thanks! Hemingway also took a Donne line for a book title, and left out the response line that puts it into perspective.
Like the op of this thread, I too have pondered about replying. The locked thread he was too late to contribute to had a post by someone who in my experience always offers facts. She quoted other online sources giving evidence, opinions of users of the cafe, that the behaviour of the owner of the cafe was neither new nor isolated.
Now, to this thread: we each have a piece of the story stemming from our stance, but this kind of exchange is not really a satisfactory way to tease out points of view. Not without face to face opportunities for clarification. I have made my own mistakes along the way in this forum with reactions rather than responses, and regretted them when it was too late! I keep trying to remember not to hit send if I am incensed about something.
By the way, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Absolutely not. Just giving a point of view. You are free to react according to yours.
One of my 'influencers', before influencers were a thing, was Paolo Freire, in his approach to human justice. I lent my copy of his Pedagogy of the Oppressed to someone and never saw it again, but had read it and seen enough of it in use not to forget its essence.
ps: a piece of wisdom from my home culture: cast your bread upon the waters when the tide is coming in - i must have missed the tide the day I lent that book!
Hi Rebekah,I think someone took something I wrote and ran off with it.
I believe we all owe one another the fundamental dignity due to every living creature. Other existential debts are negotiable, and answer to all kinds of social, economic, religious and cultural differences.
"The customer is always right" is a particularly American concept. It does not translate well in many other cultures, where the shopkeeper knows he is due some dignity, too. I frequently remind our long-suffering hospitaleros on the camino that peevish "pilgrims" cannot file legal "hojas de reclamacion" complaints against the albergue or against them, because we are not a business. We are not exchanging money for services. The hospitaleros do not owe them anything but basic civility, and if the traveler demands more, he is free to seek more satisfactory shelter elsewhere.
All other extrapolations on whatever I wrote are the opinions of the extrapolator, and not necessarily mine.
In an ideal world it would be nice to think that common decency prevails. And a lot of the time it does.It’s neither simple nor a truth.
People owe us – and we in return owe them – behaviour that is free from such negatives as intimidation, denigration and discrimination. And ideally should include a willingness to respect each other and a commitment not to rush to judge or stereotype others. Plus much more besides that sits in a grey fringe area outside of prosecutable law.
Some here have described the ideal pilgrim role as a self-effacing, zen-like, neutral vessel that accepts and receives all that Camino sees fit to place upon it. This is not unlike suggesting the person is incarcerated in the penal system where they have and deserve no rights or voice, and must submit completely to whatever - just or unjust – impositions are made upon them. Hmmm.
We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
I am much more familiar with this snippet reading '... as well as any manor of thy friends or thine own were'. It seems to take on a quite different meaning if the word 'manner' is used here. I am sure this must have generated much discussion over which might the more correct word to use in modern English.if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were;
‘Manor’ seems to be the spelling of the original version and has the added advantage of actually making sense, bearing in mind that several of Donne’s friends probably actually had manors.I am much more familiar with this snippet reading '... as well as any manor of thy friends or thine own were'. It seems to take on a quite different meaning if the word 'manner' is used here. I am sure this must have generated much discussion over which might the more correct word to use in modern English.
I don't owe anyone anything, but I have an obligation to the One who created them to treat them as well as I can.We all owe many things to each other. What is not owed to the camino wanderer, is to fulfil any sense of touristic entitlement they may bring. And for the wanderer to appreciate that on the camino, transactions and communications between host and visitor can and should mean much more than the simple tapping of a credit card on a machine.
No human right is inalienable, in that they cannot be taken away. Unfortunately, in my lifetime and that of my parents, there have been societies that stripped some people of all rights. To require that rights need to be inalienable in order to exist is to deny the existence of human rights. I'm not quite ready to go that far. I think the things we collectively agree are the way people should treat each other do constitute rights. It is reasonable to expect humane treatment.In a civilized society we all collectively agree to certain things, but they are not inalienable rights.
That's an idea worth pushing back against.
Gratitude is rarely a bad thing.
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