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Exactly my thought when reading new policy. If any authorised person would want more detailed info (exact place, psychical condition etc.) it could be obtained by the same person that posted the date when s/he saw/was with "missing person". I think time info should definitely be allowed on the forum.I am certain you guys have thrashed this out “behind the scenes”, but I would like to ask you to consider one little tweak. Instead of “I was with XXX 2 nights ago in XXX albergue” could the suggestion be simply the time and NOT location? That would alleviate initial concerns about someone who has been missing a week or more, whilst protecting their privacy.
Another thought. Somebody that saw "missing person" can't post exact place in order to protect the "missing person" but the person (parents, kids, partners,...) searching for "missing person" can (and are encouraged to) post names, date of birth, photos etc.? Isn't that a little bit of discrepancy or double standards when (presumably) the goal is the same - find/help someone or relieve somebody else in their worries?
Yes, a discrepancy, but with a good reason. In the unlikely case that the searcher has bad intentions, we need to protect the missing person's most recent location. On the overall issue of privacy, the worried person has made the judgement that concern over-rules privacy at that point. I accept that, but will not add to the private information.Isn't that a little bit of discrepancy or double standards when (presumably) the goal is the same
After much internal discussion and consideration, the moderators and Ivar have come up with a loose policy about how to deal with posts by people looking for pilgrims on the Camino. The following paragraphs describes what we think is appropriate in that situation. We will post this language at the start of every new missing pilgrim thread, but we wanted forum members to have a chance to see the policy outside the context of a particular case.
Over the past few years, we have seen posts by people looking for loved ones and worried because they have not heard from them recently. Forum members have gotten involved to try to help locate the “missing” pilgrim. This is a sensitive issue, because we have to respect the possibility that a pilgrim may intentionally want to cut off contact with “the world,” while in other cases the pilgrim may be unable to contact the loved ones. Because we cannot verify the intentions of the person looking for a “missing pilgrim,” and because we have no way of knowing whether the “missing pilgrim” wishes to be found, we have adopted these general guidelines:
The forum will allow the posting of “missing person” threads.
Responses to the thread should fall into one of two catergories:
1. Suggestions about steps the OP can take to try to find the missing person. Speculative posts, including those pondering the motivation of the missing person, will be deleted.
2. Factual information about the whereabouts of the missing person, for instance, “I was with XXX two nights ago in xxxx albergue”. If you can speak to the missing person directly, ask him or her to contact the OP rather than disclosing the person's location on the forum. Communications with the OP via the private message function would help preserve the privacy of the parties.
If you have any concerns please contact a moderator.
This completely ignores the point I was making about NOT necessarily being able to trust the person initiating the search.My only caveat is that we try to avoid information that specifically identifies or locates a "missing" pilgrim, EXCEPT to the person initiating the search.
Contrary to a number of suggestions, I think that driving the conversation underground is not helpful. In fact, I think that forum members should be actively discouraged from providing location information even in a Private Message. We need to remind ourselves that we do not know the person who claims to be a worried family member. Anyone can make that claim on the internet and there could be cases of stalking. Giving the information privately could be even worse, as only the recipient would know and we cannot have confidence who that really is.
Our inaction (i.e. not telling location) will not cause harm, even though neither will it relieve all worry and uncertainty. However, our action (telling location) could cause harm. The truly worried parent/family would appreciate our care in protecting this information.
Just my thoughts!
The goal of the forum should be to help reach the missing person and inform them that they are missed. It is then the responsibility of the "missing" person to contact home. This protects the welfare of a person who might have good reasons to avoid being tracked. A secondary goal is to relieve the worry of well-intentioned family who are looking. This can be done by posting a message on the thread that the person has been seen on a given date, without location. !
That is already in place for us. The only problem might be a situation where none of the mods are online and the thread is updated. If the update is not in keeping with the guidelines it should be reported asap, then we will see it as soon as we log in.May I suggest that the forum software be tweaked so that when any threads that need careful oversight of content get updated all moderators get an alert.
This completely ignores the point I was making about NOT necessarily being able to trust the person initiating the search.
This is very good. I would agree with KIWI Family - exclude the exact location. I too met quite a few pilgrims, of all ages, who needed "space" and this time during their Camino is very precious to them. Personally, I try to avoid social media during my walks. I restrict communications to the regular contact with home. It is one of the conditions when I am granted "leave of absence" by my very kind and understanding wife and family.After much internal discussion and consideration, the moderators and Ivar have come up with a loose policy about how to deal with posts by people looking for pilgrims on the Camino. The following paragraphs describes what we think is appropriate in that situation. We will post this language at the start of every new missing pilgrim thread, but we wanted forum members to have a chance to see the policy outside the context of a particular case.
Over the past few years, we have seen posts by people looking for loved ones and worried because they have not heard from them recently. Forum members have gotten involved to try to help locate the “missing” pilgrim. This is a sensitive issue, because we have to respect the possibility that a pilgrim may intentionally want to cut off contact with “the world,” while in other cases the pilgrim may be unable to contact the loved ones. Because we cannot verify the intentions of the person looking for a “missing pilgrim,” and because we have no way of knowing whether the “missing pilgrim” wishes to be found, we have adopted these general guidelines:
The forum will allow the posting of “missing person” threads.
Responses to the thread should fall into one of two catergories:
1. Suggestions about steps the OP can take to try to find the missing person. Speculative posts, including those pondering the motivation of the missing person, will be deleted.
2. Factual information about the whereabouts of the missing person, for instance, “I was with XXX two nights ago in xxxx albergue”. If you can speak to the missing person directly, ask him or her to contact the OP rather than disclosing the person's location on the forum. Communications with the OP via the private message function would help preserve the privacy of the parties.
If you have any concerns please contact a moderator.
Just go ahead, as long as you moderators see it from both sides (Unwanted attention, as in my case above), which I am convinced and certain you all do.In fairness we have not had any missing person threads posted by stalkers and hopefully we won't but the guidelines should protect the privacy of the missing pilgrim.
Please, please, moderators listen! This is the most sensible and balanced statement about this matter that has been made so far. I would go even further, and suggest that until the person posting a 'missing person' message has established their bona fides at the same level that might be needed by police or consular staff to take action, no time or location information should be shared. I am aware that in general, this would be a difficult test, but it has been achieved in the past, and presumably could be again should the circumstances warrant that.The goal of the forum should be to help reach the missing person and inform them that they are missed. It is then the responsibility of the "missing" person to contact home. This protects the welfare of a person who might have good reasons to avoid being tracked. A secondary goal is to relieve the worry of well-intentioned family who are looking. This can be done by posting a message on the thread that the person has been seen on a given date, without location. If the missing person has been informed of the search, we can say so but still not give location. I see no reason why that should not be on the public forum.
Yes. I would, from the start. But we still apply the rules.at some point, the initial post needs to be taken at face value
If we ever get to the point of knowing that a person is genuinely lost or at risk, we should step aside and let the authorities handle things.we only leap into action for genuinely lost or at risk people.
Oh Kinky you know I love you!!!!Reading all these posts filled with so much attentiveness for "missing persons" needs, their peace of mind and getting off the grid etc., makes me think what kind of persons are they actually? Is it really so hard to say or send a note to be left alone for some time? With all respect to their needs I think they are acting immature (in general, not in individual cases which I know nothing about) not to tell the persons that care about them what is the situation. For me it's like ending a relationship without even noticing the partner. Like "Honey, I'm gonna get some cigarettes. Be right back." and then I would vanish.
Sorry if I steer this in completely off-topic direction.
But I do concure that the location of "missing person" shouldn't be exposed.
Yes, that is true. It makes us want to act on our sympathy and fears, just to be doing something. However, nothing we do on this forum will make those missing pilgrims any safer. Whatever caused them to go "missing" happened well before we got involved. All we are doing is reducing anxiety for the family, and we should do it in a way that does not create a new risk to the pilgrim (unlikely but plausible) and hopefully also respects the privacy of the pilgrim.Through all of these many discussions, Denise Theim keeps coming to mind.
We have taken the "Keeping In Touch" aspect of our Technology too far. It is invasive, and it isn't healthy. Because we have the ability doesn't mean we should. If you're old enough to walk the Camino, you're old enough to manage your own personal affairs/relationships. You don't need help " Keeping in touch" If an adult is off the radar, it's because they want to be. None of us would walk away from a person we knew to be in need, or distress. But searching our Psyche is a singular endeavour, it requires solitude, new adventure, and a certain amount of discomfort. We have to get out of the moment. The last thing we need is someone trying to manage that for us.
Beautifully said.Yes, that is true. It makes us want to act on our sympathy and fears, just to be doing something. However, nothing we do on this forum will make those missing pilgrims any safer. Whatever caused them to go "missing" happened well before we got involved. All we are doing is reducing anxiety for the family, and we should do it in a way that does not create a new risk to the pilgrim (unlikely but plausible) and hopefully also respects the privacy of the pilgrim.
I really don't see the problem as whether a pilgrim is right or wrong in wanting to get away and being alone. Stalking is a real and serious problem. I have experienced it myself and have witnessed 2 other pilgrims being stalked at different times. The latest one I met both the stalker and the stalked and it is no joke. So on the topic of Denise Thiem, disclosing information about a pilgrim's location could possibly create a risk situation for the person and turning her into a real disappeared person like Denise. We would not want that. When I was being stalked I would be super upset and really be put at risk if another pilgrim had disclosed my location on line.After much internal discussion and consideration, the moderators and Ivar have come up with a loose policy about how to deal with posts by people looking for pilgrims on the Camino. The following paragraphs describes what we think is appropriate in that situation. We will post this language at the start of every new missing pilgrim thread, but we wanted forum members to have a chance to see the policy outside the context of a particular case.
Over the past few years, we have seen posts by people looking for loved ones and worried because they have not heard from them recently. Forum members have gotten involved to try to help locate the “missing” pilgrim. This is a sensitive issue, because we have to respect the possibility that a pilgrim may intentionally want to cut off contact with “the world,” while in other cases the pilgrim may be unable to contact the loved ones. Because we cannot verify the intentions of the person looking for a “missing pilgrim,” and because we have no way of knowing whether the “missing pilgrim” wishes to be found, we have adopted these general guidelines:
The forum will allow the posting of “missing person” threads.
Responses to the thread should fall into one of two catergories:
1. Suggestions about steps the OP can take to try to find the missing person. Speculative posts, including those pondering the motivation of the missing person, will be deleted.
2. Factual information about the whereabouts of the missing person, for instance, “I was with XXX two nights ago in xxxx albergue”. If you can speak to the missing person directly, ask him or her to contact the OP rather than disclosing the person's location on the forum. Communications with the OP via the private message function would help preserve the privacy of the parties.
If you have any concerns please contact a moderator.
I agree.After much internal discussion and consideration, the moderators and Ivar have come up with a loose policy about how to deal with posts by people looking for pilgrims on the Camino. The following paragraphs describes what we think is appropriate in that situation. We will post this language at the start of every new missing pilgrim thread, but we wanted forum members to have a chance to see the policy outside the context of a particular case.
Over the past few years, we have seen posts by people looking for loved ones and worried because they have not heard from them recently. Forum members have gotten involved to try to help locate the “missing” pilgrim. This is a sensitive issue, because we have to respect the possibility that a pilgrim may intentionally want to cut off contact with “the world,” while in other cases the pilgrim may be unable to contact the loved ones. Because we cannot verify the intentions of the person looking for a “missing pilgrim,” and because we have no way of knowing whether the “missing pilgrim” wishes to be found, we have adopted these general guidelines:
The forum will allow the posting of “missing person” threads.
Responses to the thread should fall into one of two catergories:
1. Suggestions about steps the OP can take to try to find the missing person. Speculative posts, including those pondering the motivation of the missing person, will be deleted.
2. Factual information about the whereabouts of the missing person, for instance, “I was with XXX two nights ago in xxxx albergue”. If you can speak to the missing person directly, ask him or her to contact the OP rather than disclosing the person's location on the forum. Communications with the OP via the private message function would help preserve the privacy of the parties.
If you have any concerns please contact a moderator.
There are private investigators for this. They are very professional and will enquire the reason for the search. They have to be paid. The person looking for the person lost should use a PI if they're worried, and pony up the money to pay the PI. Otherwise, using fellow peregrinos for a no cost "missing person" search could just be the equivalent to harassment.Well said.
So I expect you would first pay and then ask about how you get from Biarritz or Paris or Madrid to St.Jean, about the list of albergues opened in wintertime, how you pronounce queso etc.? I mean we all do that for free here on this forum. Well, I for one could use some additional income for all my shared knowledge, GPS tracks, photos and so on if you really think that "pros" should be paid. Nah, let's say "rewarded" to avoid taxesThere are private investigators for this. They are very professional and will enquire the reason for the search. They have to be paid. The person looking for the person lost should use a PI if they're worried, and pony up the money to pay the PI. Otherwise, using fellow peregrinos for a no cost "missing person" search could just be the equivalent to harassment.
YepKinky, my eyebrows were raised a little at Sal's comment, but does your response to him have a tad of that grumpiness you had mentioned earlier?
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