The new Rule 3 - no more tourist vs. pilgrim debates

[BarbC]

I have absolutely no problem with that.

Where I have a problem with is , the people who make trouble with the security guards at the Pilgrims Office and find it strange that the police are called, or with people who yell at one of the Sisters and myself. While we volunteer there, I don't have a good word for people like this.

This is all new to me - why are people yelling and making trouble

 

[Dani7]

As @alexwalker said earlier…this thread has long since past the point of the original post and discussion of rule #3. May I second the emotion and politely suggest it’s time to close this thread. Perhaps start a new thread for further discussion…if warranted.

 

[VNwalking]

This is all new to me - why are people yelling and making trouble

Entitlement? Just a guess.
@Peter Franciscus can elaborate.

because we both know - we All know - people are. They hear about it, it nags at them, odd synchronicities happen - the scallop shell embedded in a wall in a country three thousand miles away, the overheard snatch of conversation in a cafe, the turning the tv on for the news but it is on a channel that is showing a pilgrim documentary ...we all know this stuff, it is too beyond "co-incidence" (whatever that really means) to be random

they were called (drawn) they answered, and there they are - and then we are all become one diverse tribe, one family - diverse, difficult like all extended families, but one.

Respectfully, @David, but I can't agree, because we don't all have that experience. Some people stumble into the Camino with no calling or 'synchronicity' whatsoever.
Not everyone is on the same page.

It's nice to imagine we're all one, but experience on the ground - and here - is that there's not always such sweetness and light. Hence the tension that this rule seeks to avoid.

 

[FourSeasons]

It’s a sad, sad day on the Camino. I am no longer a pilgrim if I can’t be compared to a tourist. We are all the same if we can’t talk about our differences. All judgement aside.

 

[David Tallan]

It’s a sad, sad day on the Camino. I am no longer a pilgrim if I can’t be compared to a tourist. We are all the same if we can’t talk about our differences. All judgement aside.

I think you're a pilgrim if you consider yourself a pilgrim, whether or not others contrast you to tourists.

"All judgement aside" is easy to say but seems more difficult to do. If the judgement is truly left aside, you probably won't fall afoul of the rule.

 

[Corned Beef]

I have absolutely no problem with that.

Where I have a problem with is , the people who make trouble with the security guards at the Pilgrims Office and find it strange that the police are called, or with people who yell at one of the Sisters and myself. While we volunteer there, I don't have a good word for people like this.

Anyone that deals with people in times of stress knows this to be a people problem and not a pilgrim problem.

I am usually able to discover the reason for the stress and deal with it, but the volunteers and sisters in the Pilgrim Office must find it disconcerting. I can assure you it's a far wider phenomenon than just the camino. And regrettably it's become worse post-Covid

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

Wheather a person walking a camino is considered to be a hiker, a pilgrim or a tourist is not really relevant to me. Everyone knows his reasons for being on a camino. Categorising others in respect to their motivation brings nothing.
That changes though when the walking experience of others is influenced for instance by big noisy groups. This is an effect of the crowds on some caminos and you can avoid it by walking less-travelled caminos.
One thing that irritateded me comes from the way some commercial organisations/persons offer walking a camino with a "touristry" approach that can or will influence the experience of others. For instance two incidents I experienced : after dinner having group discussions about the " groupproces" or honoring the "walker of the day" or taping off a part of a resting place for the exclusive use of the group member$

 

[Bristle Boy]

At the end of the day the Camino is no different to anything else in life...it is down to choices.
To make an analogy, how you undertake it is no real difference to a restaurant menu.
You pick what you want and it isn't up to anyone else. It may not be their choice or to their taste but they are not eating it.
Enjoy it while you can...life is far too short to be concerned of peoples preferences or the way they approach things.
This is all about judgement and has no place on a mature forum. It has the effect of diminishing peoples self worth and to some degree or other when we travel we have all the components of being a tourist whether it is accepted, like it or not.
There is no right way or wrong way. There is only your way.

 

[Kathar1na]

I am confused as to why we even need this discussion. Does it matter if travellers are tourists or pilgrims? This site provides information to those who need it - whatever there reasons. Not for us to judge.

Does anything matter?

Yes, it does matter to people. The reason for the new forum rule is due to the fact, as @C clearly puts it, that we are having this discussion because many recent arguments and bad feelings have resulted from the way some people present their opinions and information.

As with numerous forum threads, there are voices of posters who are not interested in such a discussion and don't want to see it or want it to end; or who understand a discussion as nothing more than an exchange of angry opinions and fighting; or as "judgment" which they regard as something intrinsically negative.

There are people who do ask themselves whether they self-identify as pilgrims or not as pilgrims (and instead as cultural slow travellers or natural environment hikers or whatever label one could think of). It depends on one's own cultural and educational background and how one defines "pilgrim".

There is no good definition of peregrino or turista or caminante, especially not for the contemporary Camino population which is so diverse and multi-facetted and so far removed from the medieval pilgrim population. I certainly asked myself this question when I started out - luckily enough for me at that time I was totally unaware of this forum and similar online discussions .

For numerous forum members, pilgrim means foot pilgrim and often even longer term or longer distance foot pilgrim. A narrow view, of course, and made even narrower when there are dogmatic conditions associated with it, be it internal attitude (must be on a spiritual quest, must strive for temporary austerity) or external behaviour (must carry backpack).

For the management of some Camino albergues (very few), the Camino pilgrims they will cater for must have carried their backpacks when they arrive at their door. The management of some other Camino albergues (a handful) will cater only for Camino pilgrims who do not have some of their belongings transported in suitcases from day to day and from accommodation to accommodation. All this is associated with a specific concept of pilgrim versus tourist.

The dean of the Santiago Cathedral, who is the boss of the Pilgrim Office in Santiago, said in an interview: There are people who start out as tourists or because they want to have an experience of encountering themselves, and then they end up becoming pilgrims. You will find such comments numerous times. Again, it hinges on the speaker's chosen definition of pilgrim and of tourist.

Does it matter what the others are and what they do who are in your Camino space at the same time as you? Of course it does as you will quickly learn when you read threads on this forum. Not only to the one time Camino walker or the repetitive Camino walker who compares past and present but also to other Camino actors and agents such as those, especially members of Camino associations, who are called to defend something that is described as the "spirit of the Camino".

 

[VNwalking]

There is no right way or wrong way. There is only your way.

That's an idea that doesn't actually bear out on the real Camino (as opposed to the idea of one).

Some (most) peregrin@s (whether they identify as pilgrims or tourists or a bit of both) are considerate and do their best to foster fellow-feeling and harmony along the way. However they walk is fine, and right.

But some (mercifully very few) are selfish idiots, who just do what they want even if it negativity affects everyone else. "My Camino, my way," they say, "and how dare you judge me."

Sorry. That entitled attitude is wrong - and worth calling out as wrong. It has nothing to do with being a tourist or a pilgrim, and everything to do with being a mature and decent human being.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

This thread is about the debate of pilgrim vs tourist and how to reduce the unkind attitudes and criticisms that crop up periodically on this forum to other members who are not the so-called purists.
It has wandered off into the sharing of experiences witnessed while we are walking. Talking about the rude, annoying, self-centered people we come into contact with while walking and whether "they" are a pilgrim or tourist is a different topic and should be for a different thread. We are to be discussing about critical attitudes towards our forum members.

 

[David]

@VNwalking
"Respectfully, @David, but I can't agree, because we don't all have that experience. Some people stumble into the Camino with no calling or 'synchronicity' whatsoever.
Not everyone is on the same page.

It's nice to imagine we're all one, but experience on the ground - and here - is that there's not always such sweetness and light. Hence the tension that this rule seeks to avoid."

I didn't say that we all have that experience, only that we are all somehow drawn to Camino - stumbling will do fine, if that is what the person thinks has happened.
It is not imagination that we are all one in the sense that only one thing exists, ask any physicist, but if you actually read my text you will see that I was writing about all of us actually being one family - the pilgrim family
I too experience the ground we walk on.
I never mentioned sweetness and light.
I understand the tensions which is why I wrote about acceptance "and then we are all become one diverse tribe, one family - diverse, difficult like all extended families, but one."

I understand very well, I too live here on this planet .. Please read whatever I write without making assumptions.
In this difficult extended pilgrim family I think you may have just become my distant difficult Great Aunt

 

[VNwalking]

Talking about the rude, annoying, self-centered people we come into contact with while walking and whether "they" are a pilgrim or tourist is a different topic and should be for a different thread.

I think we actually agree here, Chris.
No-one is doing that, actually (questioning whether the rude, annoying, self-centered people are a pilgrims or tourists).

Because it doesn't matter - the bad behavior and those labels are compltely unrelated.

The point of my post was to point out that in this context "There is no right way or wrong way. There is only your way" is both inaccurate and irrelevant. Inaccurate beause there is right and wrong, and saying there's 'no wrong or right way' opens the door for excusing selfish behavior. Irrelevant because both tourists and pilgrims can be selfish.

we are having this discussion because many recent arguments and bad feelings have resulted from the way some people present their opinions and information.

Pejorative language towards other posters, saying they're 'touriginos' or not 'real pilgrims,' is the issue here.

I think you may have just become my distant difficult Great Aunt

Or you perhaps my difficult uncle.
I just don't believe in synchronicity or calling, because stochasticity happens too.

And I understand deep unity well enough, but at the same time we live in a conventional reality where unity of intention is impossible. You can call yourself a pilgrim and that's fine. But what others are is up to them.
Hence Rule 3.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I have noticed the questioning on a quote of mine on "how" (and not why) you participate on a camino.
I feel that however you organise your camino (whether by bike, organised tour, pack transfer, booking (or not) by whatever means at your disposal) that this does not diminish your camino.nor does it affect the validity and is a matter of choice and, to some, necessity.
On this score there is no wrong way and, to those that state there is no need or questions these choices, leaves the wrong impression.

 

[C clearly]

The point of my post was to point out that in this context "There is no right way or wrong way. There is only your way" is both inaccurate and irrelevant. Inaccurate beause there is right and wrong

I am not a philosopher, but I am aware enough of the logical/ethical/philosophical quandaries to think that this statement is very debatable. Your simplistic statement doesn't seem any more relevant or accurate than the one you quote. I think both are incomplete and need context. However, I also think that going further on the public forum discussion - on the question "Do right and wrong exist, and if so, how do we recognize them?" will not be productive.

This thread is about the debate of pilgrim vs tourist and how to reduce the unkind attitudes and criticisms that crop up periodically on this forum to other members who are not the so-called purists.
It has wandered off into the sharing of experiences witnessed while we are walking. Talking about the rude, annoying, self-centered people we come into contact with while walking and whether "they" are a pilgrim or tourist is a different topic and should be for a different thread. We are to be discussing about critical attitudes towards our forum members.

What you say is true, and others have also suggested that this thread should be closed. However, I see the thread as a useful place where people can discuss these topics in a general way, without seeming to judge individuals on specific threads. Perhaps, though, the title is now misleading. Maybe we need a new thread titled "Discussion of pilgrims and pilgrimage - not for the faint of heart" so people can avoid it if they prefer.

 

[gns]

Somehow I was reminded of a line from "Yes Minister" - a wonderfully sharp British sitcom from many years back. Bernard - a civil servant - commenting on how people perceive and describe themselves in relation to others. "It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I have an independent mind. You are eccentric. He is round the twist."

I prefer "I give confidential briefings, you leak, he is being prosecuted under Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act".

 

[JamesGeier]

This I especially liked:

The dean of the Santiago Cathedral, who is the boss of the Pilgrim Office in Santiago, said in an interview: There are people who start out as tourists or because they want to have an experience of encountering themselves, and then they end up becoming pilgrims. You will find such comments numerous times.

It reminds me of a quote from an interview with Jack Hitt, the author of "Off the Road: A Modern-day Walk Down the Pilgrim's Route into Spain" which was one of the inspirations for Emilio Estevez to write the screenplay for the film "The Way."

"One of the cool things about the road to Santiago is that almost any motivation to go ends up being a great one."

And I experienced first hand what the Dean of the Santiago Cathedral said. In 2017 I met a friend from Australia in Paris to travel to Saint Jean to start the Camino Frances the next day (my second, his first). He made it clear that this was not religious or spiritual for him, it was to be a long walk. Three weeks later while walking out of Astorga, he turned to me and said, "I want to thank you for bringing me here, this has been the deepest spiritual experience of my life." And this spring we walked the Via de la Plata together.

Buen Camino,
--james--

 

[JabbaPapa]

OK I guess that this is my final chance to write up what I really think about these extremely tedious "real pilgrim" pseudo-"debates". (though they did sort of make sense between the early 1990s and late 2000s)

First, a very large number of epithets exist that are attached to the common noun pilgrim :

Foot pilgrim, bike, horse, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, peregrino, peregrina, English, "Sarria", Francès, Português, Fátima, Santiago, Lourdes, Francigena, religious, secular, spiritual, young, old, American, Australian, poor, wealthy, and so on and so forth ad limina ...

Excellent epithets.

These epithets generally speaking have no other purpose than to provide some descriptive and qualitative information about certain groups of pilgrims and occasionally some individuals among them.

So that first, to suppose any "judgmentalism" in this is to at least some degree, simply bad grammar.

Just as people are neither "inferior" nor "superior" if their hair is black, red, auburn, blonde, brown, grey, white, or even some extraordinary platinum blonde, none of these epithets are intrinsically any sort of value judgments either.

--

But then there are the epithets real, fake, true, false, which I think far too many people construe as being dichotomies, except that no dichotomy as such exists in them.

A "fake pilgrim" is NOT someone who fails to live up to some sort of impossible and ludicrous ideal ; it is a malicious individual posing as a "pilgrim" for some nefarious and anti-social purpose. Professional thieves and so on.

A "false pilgrim" is NOT a pilgrim who fails to be "perfect", whatever that means, but it refers to someone who simply is not a pilgrim by any definition, and yet is presenting himself as being one for some selfish but not necessarily anti-social purpose. There are very few of them nowadays, but the type is someone abusing the Camino infrastructures without actually doing any hiking at all, but instead travelling by car from A to B in order to enjoy the benefits without the effort, or any similar abuses. Basically : cheats seeking benefits from the Camino infrastructures provided for pilgrims.

---

So then, what is a so-called "real pilgrim" ?

Spoiler alert, pretty much everyone in here who has walked any route of the Way of Saint James or any other significant Pilgrim Way.

It basically just means the difference between someone who is still working things out and someone who has accepted his pilgrimage and why and so on.

The only meaningful difference semantically between "pilgrim" and "real pilgrim" is that the "pilgrim" might potentially be in doubt and might potentially be still on the way, whereas the "real pilgrim" has somehow found what he was looking for, and is able to share it with others, and of course always and anyway just his or her own personal insights and perspectives, not some ludicrous and impossible fake "ideal".

The difference between these notions is simply a threshold of personal understanding -- and necessarily an individual and unique one, alien to judgment from others.

A "real pilgrim" is a pilgrim who has a personal understanding of his or her own pilgrimage that makes some sort of sense, personally, and can be provided in some way to others.

If you know why you are a pilgrim, then you are a real pilgrim.

But FAR more importantly :

A "real pilgrim" is just another pilgrim !!

-----

I think that the issue as far as these forums are concerned is that the pilgrim/real pilgrim distinction is pretty much meaningless within the specifics of this place, given that most of us talking in here are either novices seeking help and information or experienced pilgrims providing it.

There is therefore far less middle ground here than is typical on the Camino Ways themselves, so that many conversations that might be entirely appropriate on the Ways of Saint James have pretty much no place in here.

Beyond "meaningless" really -- it's basically useless.

Who cares ? Novices and other prospective pilgrims are not helped at all by this sort of anthropological hair-splittery.

 

[nycwalking]

This thread seems to have veered into pilgrim versus tourist territory.

Hence the very real need for: Rule 3.

Buen camino to we all!

 

[VNwalking]

Thanks, @JabbaPapa .
A clarion call to support simply not using that qualifier 'real' in this context, full stop.
Amen.

 

[ginniek]

Somehow I was reminded of a line from "Yes Minister" - a wonderfully sharp British sitcom from many years back. Bernard - a civil servant - commenting on how people perceive and describe themselves in relation to others. "It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I have an independent mind. You are eccentric. He is round the twist."

I had forgotten how much I missed "Yes Minister" and "Yes Prime Minister." Thanks for reminding me.

 

[arturo garcia]

Being running an albergue full-time for 8 years and a half. The difference between a Pilgrim and a Tourist or what some people call Turigrino is just the way you behave and how much you respect in the camino and also in your regular life or the good or bad impact you leave on your way, so, depending on that, we can fit in any of those archetypes. It doesn't matter if you carry a backpack or a hard luggage, if you do it by bike or by foot or if you skip the meseta by Bus. Ultreia!

 

[auburnfive]

I love this rule, and the no judgement philosophy - was a little disappointed that there is a poster in the pilgrims office in St Jean Pied du Port outlining the difference.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Really! What does it say?

 

[auburnfive]

Really! What does it say?

It’s in French so I couldn’t really tell, but there were 5 or 6 ways ( with diagrams ) listed that explained the difference

 

[TravellingMan22]

It’s in French so I couldn’t really tell, but there were 5 or 6 ways ( with diagrams ) listed that explained the difference

Ok… but As is pilgrim = good and tourist = bad? As basic gist?

 

[auburnfive]

Ok… but As is pilgrim = good and tourist = bad? As basic gist?

Yup

 

[GaTeach]

I honestly can't imagine caring whether someone on an internet forum labeled me as a tourist or a pilgrim. lol