BROWNCOUNTYBOB
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Frances: 2015, 2017, 2019, 2021
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My wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
Yes, the foot needs room. And an expanding foot needs more room. Dead on davebugg.Your shoes were not sized properly for distance walking/ hiking, Bob.
The most important theme for achieving a proper fit is: You do not choose a shoe based on measurements, you buy a shoe based on its Fit N Feel regardless of instrument measurements.
- When you go to the store, do so toward the end of the day.... you will have been up on your feet, so that will help with getting the correct fit. Additionally, you will need to wear the same backpack with the same gear you will be carrying... you want this additional weight on you as this will put the same downward pressure on the foot that you will be having while on Camino.
- Wear the exact same sock(s) you will be wearing while you are walking on the Camino. And if you have a special insole or orthotic, bring it with you.
- At the store, the measuring that will be done on your feet is only to get you in the ballpark for the correct shoe size.
- Start by standing up; never measure while sitting. You want the full weight of your body, with the pack on, to put the same pressure on your feet to spread them out as will happen while walking. That alone will increase the volume and size of your feet.
- Make sure those 'Camino' socks are on your feet; if you wear socks with liners while walking, do the same thing at the store.
- While standing, have someone near to you that you can use to steady yourself. With the measuring device on the ground, step onto the instrument and center all of your weight onto the foot being measured. Do the same for the other foot.
- Start with that size, but be aware that both the width and the length need to feel like there is adequate room for your feet. Ideally, like Goldilocks, everything will be just right. But, don't count on it. Be picky.
- If you have special insoles or orthotics, put them into any shoe you try on as they will take up space inside the shoe.
- When you find what you think will fit you well, you will need to see if your toes have enough clearance. Toes should not be able to be forced to the front of the shoe and touch the shoe. Not even a little. If they do, long walking and downhill grades on the trail or path or road will traumatize the bed of the nail, and that is when toenails can blacken and fall off.
- With your shoes tied securely, but not too tight, walk around the store with your pack on. Go up stairs and down stairs, scuff the shoes to the floor so that your feet are forced to do any movement they will do and see if your toes so much as butterfly kiss the front of the shoe. Kick the front of the shoe into a post or stair or wall or someone's shin.... does that make any of your toes touch the front of the shoe? That goes for all the little piggies.
- Next, pay attention to the width of the shoe. It shouldn't feel snug on the sides and there should be no rubbing or pressure points at all. They will not go away with "break in". They will create soreness, pain, and blistering. Even if it seems to be tolerable, it is like water torture; as your feet are continually exposed to those pressure points your feet will break down against them bit by bit, and bruising, blisters, and soreness will follow.
- You may need to go up a size. . . or even more. . and go with a wider width to avoid those things I mentioned above. The notion that one avoids blisters by wearing snug footwear has been shown to do just the opposite.
My wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
My wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
...I get it because my second toe is bent and the nail bed hits the bottom of my shoe....
It is possible to buy a pair of socks where one is shaped for a right foot and the other for the left foot. This keeps the socks closer to the smaller toes so there is less rubbing than having the shoe pushing excess sock material against the small toe. If you don't want to spend the money you could trim and sew an older pair of socks to see if this works for you. I suggest using green thread for the right sock and red for the left (like a boat's running lights).I love my shoes (Salomon X-Ultra) with one exception. After about 1,800 kilometers on the Camino there is only one re-occurring problem. About two days in I always get a blister forming on my R "pinky" toe.
Porters in the Himalayas have learnt by long experience to do much the same thing.. . . .As a side note, my son was in a special operations military unit and he told me that on their 50 K movements through all kinds of conditions most of the guys used running shoes and left the high dollar hiking boots home. Hope this helps.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
Gracias ! Bob
I think it's because you need to go up a size of your footwear, that has worked for me. Best regards from Bjarne.My wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
I hiked about 700 miles this summer in Scotland and the El Camino Frances and Primitivo. Recommend you try Altra Trail Runner shoes sized 1.5 sizes bigger than normal and Injinji toe socks. They worked perfectlyMy wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
I love my shoes (Salomon X-Ultra) with one exception. After about 1,800 kilometers on the Camino there is only one re-occurring problem. About two days in I always get a blister forming on my R "pinky" toe.
I also use get black toenails until I mentioned it to my Orthopedic specialist. In examining he stated that my small toes were curved downward and that was the reason. He suggested cutting under the bottom of my toes the tendons to straighten them. I had this procedure done with great pain with the freezing the needles were with excruciating pain. I was told to stay off my feet for a few days until healing, now no black toes.View attachment 67694I used to get black second toes and since I started wearing these no more black toe. I get it because my second toe is bent and the nail bed hits the bottom of my shoe. Zen toes come in two sizes and I wear the large size on my big toe. Last fall I met a woman with a painful blister under her toe nail and she was able to wear her shoes again when I gave her an extra Zen toe.
Some of these problems become more troublesome as we age and tendons tighten. Many of us would have noticed we have trouble touching our toes (without cheating ) as we become less young, for example.I also use get black toenails until I mentioned it to my Orthopedic specialist. In examining he stated that my small toes were curved downward and that was the reason. He suggested cutting under the bottom of my toes the tendons to straighten them. I had this procedure done with great pain with the freezing the needles were with excruciating pain. I was told to stay off my feet for a few days until healing, now no black toes.
What a fascinating and informative post from YMMV re marathons and application to long distance hikes.
Just when I thought I had it all figured out, YMMV comes along to inject a little humility.
Bob M
I noticed that when I was walking down hill that I was trying to dig my toes into the bottom of my shoes. I was doing this as if I was walking bare foot and using my toes for extra grip.
Of course you are correct if you go back far enough.Here was I thinking that my pre-human ancestors had fins and a tail and swam around in the sea. I have always been attracted to the ocean.
Thanks for so many helpful comments. Lots for me to consider before our next camino ! Bob
Walking sandals ! Try Merrell KahunaMy wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
But the Camino is a walk, a stroll, a saunter - not a hike.(You will, however, be frowned upon by ”real” hikers. Just ignore.)
The bruising at the base of the nail bed there shows clearly that your toes were bumping the front of your shoes, and probably that your nails had been allowed to grow too long.For anyone not familiar with black toe, here’s a photo of my two black toes during our 2019 camino. This was after the swelling of the blister on my right toe reduced thanks to the antibiotic Keflex.View attachment 84347
My wife and I have walked three Camino Frances - the full 800 kms, each time Sept - Oct in 2015, 2017 and 2019. We've decided to walk again in 2020 to avoid the Jubilee Year crowds in 2021. The first time we walked CF (Napoleon route), I noticed that my right foot "big toe" had darkened under the nail, which I later learned was "black toe", caused by my toe jamming up against the shoe box during brutal downhill climbs. This was no surprise to me, since we took the forest route down to Roncesvalles. I subsequently lost the toe nail. It was painless and grew back.
During our second camino, we decided to walk the Valcarlos route. I wore the same high top Patagonia boots. Same outcome. Black toe on right foot big toe.
For our third camino, I was determined to study up on how to prevent black toe. My brother, who is a doctor and hiked with us and his wife on our 2017 camino, bought me "Fixing your Feet" book, which I read cover to cover. I learned the importance of trimming your nails, etc. I even went to have a pedicure (first one in my life!) a week before our third camino. I bought a pair of Merrell Moab high top hiking shoes and broke these in before the camino. My wife and I walked the Valcarlos route again. I wore two pairs of socks (liners and merino wool), and wrapped my big toes in lambs wool and paper tape. And each camino we've used trekking poles and walked slowly during steep downhill climbs.
Guess what? Got black toe again - this time even worse. Within a few days, it was clear I had black toe on both big toe nails. One developed a severe blister at the bottom of the nail and I started taking an antibiotic since it looked nasty and I was afraid it would become infected (it did not). Mid-way through our camino, I noticed that the nails on the adjacent toes (next to big toe) on both feet had become dark. Now that I'm home, two nails have come off, and two others I'll lose soon.
My wife has not had black toe problems on any of our three caminos. If anyone has suggestions regarding how to reduce chances of developing black toe, I would love any and all advice. Otherwise, I'll counsel myself that black toe is my own genetic deficiency and an inevitable but painless casualty of walking the camino.
Gracias ! Bob
My thoughts are that if you have a pair that "have been fantastic", I wouldn't mess with success.I have been training in altra superior 5s and they have been fantastic. I love the zero drop and wide toe box and light weight. I recently bought a second pair to actually walk in on the VDLP but went up a half size to make sure i wouldn't have any toe issues because of swelling or steeper descents. However, after my first 17k walk, the tops of my second toes were very sore. I read up on all the lacing tips and adjusted them to get a heel lock and waited a couple days for the toes to calm down. I did a 10k walk without a pack and my left foot second toe was in pain again. It was a flat route and there was definitely no toe mashing against the end of my shoe. I'm thinking now that the issue is my toe rubbing against the transition from the stiff rubber of the toe cap to the very soft mash fabric on the top of the shoe which runs just along the end of my toes. Has anyone else experienced something like that? I'm hoping that just going back to my original size will solve the issue but I'm worried about the same shoe construction dynamic being present and the problem rearing it's head on the day in and day out long walks of the Camino. I'm 32 days out and getting a little worried i need to find a new shoe. Thoughts?
Try putting Engo patches in your shoes where the problem area is. https://goengo.com/I have been training in altra superior 5s and they have been fantastic. I love the zero drop and wide toe box and light weight. I recently bought a second pair to actually walk in on the VDLP but went up a half size to make sure i wouldn't have any toe issues because of swelling or steeper descents. However, after my first 17k walk, the tops of my second toes were very sore. I read up on all the lacing tips and adjusted them to get a heel lock and waited a couple days for the toes to calm down. I did a 10k walk without a pack and my left foot second toe was in pain again. It was a flat route and there was definitely no toe mashing against the end of my shoe. I'm thinking now that the issue is my toe rubbing against the transition from the stiff rubber of the toe cap to the very soft mash fabric on the top of the shoe which runs just along the end of my toes. Has anyone else experienced something like that? I'm hoping that just going back to my original size will solve the issue but I'm worried about the same shoe construction dynamic being present and the problem rearing it's head on the day in and day out long walks of the Camino. I'm 32 days out and getting a little worried i need to find a new shoe. Thoughts?
This could well be the case - sometimes very small differences can create unexpected problems on a particular foot. If you do go back to the original size, be sure to test the new pair. Possibly you could use the larger (problematic) shoe with a fix such as Engo patch or other padding, as least for training or normal use. But it would be nice to have a perfect shoe on the Camino.I'm hoping that just going back to my original size will solve the issue
You didn't try wearing sandals!I was the original poster on this thread. My wife and I completed our fourth Camino Frances in Sept - Oct 2021. I tried a variety of interventions to avoid more black toes. These included gel toe caps, tying my shoes differently, using a liner and outer merino wool sock, using trekking poles and walking slowly and carefully down steep descents to avoid banging my toes up again the toe box, trimming my toe nails, added lambs wool by toes, used Foot glide. (I didn't bother with a pedicure since I did this prior to my 3rd camino and still got black toes). Despite all these interventions, once again my camino resulted in four black toes: the large toenails on each foot and the next one over on each foot. I was concerned about developing an infection, so took an oral antibiotic and no problems. Not at all painful. After 4 caminos and 4 for 4 sets of black toes, I have decided this is my fate to develop a few on all future caminos (next one in 2023).
Black Toe Bob
My fate too, @BROWNCOUNTYBOB! For me, it’s only the toes next to my big toes, but it happens like clockwork whenever I walk a camino. No pain, no infection, just a black toenail that eventually falls off when I am back home. I have never bothered to try to figure out what is causing it, because in all other respects my feet are extremely happy in their Altra Lone Peaks. And like others have advised, I’m not going to mess up something good to try to correct something that doesn’t cause me problems.Not at all painful. After 4 caminos and 4 for 4 sets of black toes, I have decided this is my fate to develop a few on all future caminos (next one in 2023).
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