Stinky Pilgrim
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- 1998
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I find the author of this article on Gronze.com and his style difficult to read so I skipped most of it. But thank you, @pellegrino, for bringing this to the forum's attention.This is as laughable as it is bizarre. I'm surprised that the ecclesiastical authorities gave the thumbs-up to this project. See link to Change.org petition at end of article:
Based on Google translate I think the profanity is the fact that the face of God will it seems be a self portrait of the artist!As I said already, I find the polemics of the Gronze author in question so irritating that I skipped most of the article. I am not against modern elements in Gothic cathedrals, especially not when such a building incorporates already architectural and artistic elements from later centuries. Cathedrals are living houses of God for the faithful, not something that must be preserved at all cost in its state as it is now.
I don't care who and what stood as models for the design. I don't see any "profanation" here, i.e. desecration; defilement; debasement. I don't like the look of it for various reasons and I hope the project will be stopped.
I wonder what this façade looked like originally, i.e. even before they replaced the medieval doors with neoclassical doors. The triangular masonry above the main portal isn't pretty either and it hurts the eye.
Someone should tell these guys:Based on Google translate I think the profanity is the fact that the face of God will it seems be a self portrait of the artist!
You don't need to be religious to take exception to that.
You learn something every day. Just about forgivable in the case of Rembrandt but still at least conceited for anyone else.Someone should tell these guys:
Albrecht Dürer as Christ
[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.everypainterpaintshimself.com/article/duerers_self-portrait_as_christ_15001#:~:text=EPPH - Every Painter Paints Himself&text=In the year 1500 Albrecht,identifiable as a self-portrait./[/URL]
Pietro Perugino as Baby Jesus & Mary
Perugino's Madonna and Child (n.d.) and Mary Magdalene (1500)
Short and surprising explanations of Western masterpieces. EPPH reveals the universal themes around which artists have long weaved visual illusions. We make understanding art fun.www.everypainterpaintshimself.com
Rembrandt's Cruxifiction
Rembrandt's Crucifixion (1631)
Short and surprising explanations of Western masterpieces. EPPH reveals the universal themes around which artists have long weaved visual illusions. We make understanding art fun.www.everypainterpaintshimself.com
Van Dyck’s Resurrection
Van Dyck's Resurrection (c.1631-2)
Short and surprising explanations of Western masterpieces. EPPH reveals the universal themes around which artists have long weaved visual illusions. We make understanding art fun.www.everypainterpaintshimself.com
The translation says "himself (the artist), his wife, and his son". That's pretty elevated, if it is true...Based on Google translate I think the profanity is the fact that the face of God will it seems be a self portrait of the artist!
You don't need to be religious to take exception to that.
Most of the handful of articles I had looked at, and most of them written last summer before the current campaign against the project had been started, say that the inspiration are the artist's daughter and grandchild and que usa como modelo – como siempre sucede con él – a su propia familia. So that's apparently nothing unusual.The translation says "himself (the artist), his wife, and his son". That's pretty elevated, if it is true...
Yes, it seems this specific artist always uses his family as models. Not sure if I like it... But, who am I?Most of the handful of articles I had looked at, and most of them written last summer before the current campaign against the project had been started, say that the inspiration are the artist's daughter and grandchild and que usa como modelo – como siempre sucede con él – a su propia familia. So that's apparently nothing unusual.
This Guardian article provides another (visual) view of what it could look like if the bronze doors were installed. I must say that I would have no issues with the motif on the right side, and I would have no issues with new bronze doors as such. The more I think about it, the more I like this image that covers the whole door, instead of a number of small rectangular cases depicting various scenes from the Bible or the life of a saint or similar, a style which I think it is not uncommon.Further news is reported 18/02 !in The Guardian re a public protest of the project.
I think you need to be concerned about this only if you are taller than 3 metres or soSo what happens when I want to enter the cathedral through that main door? Do I push on God’s ear? Pull on an earring?
Well, I do like to be concerned for my very tall friends. Heightism being what it is.I think you need to be concerned about this only if you are taller than 3 metres or so.
I thought it was opened to let the bicyclists in to start their race.Well, I do like to be concerned for my very tall friends. Heightism being what it is.
Good catch.
The central door is likely only opened on special occasions, like when the knights need to ride in on their horses, but still awful.
What I personally find objectionable is the return of portraying God the Father as an old human. (Yes, I know, Sistine Chapel and all that, but still...) The ancient, and wise, tradition is to indicate the Father as a beam of light, in many cases, a lone hand dispensing light beams in some Eastern icons, and making a huge face like this just reminds me way way too much of the giant head thing as illustrated in the famous Apple commercial some years back. (Pace some sculptures of the Holy Trinity that we saw in Portugal.) The side door with toddler-Jesus playing is nice. A little over-scaled IMHO but not as scarey as the center door proposed. I don't see a good look at the other side door. It's the center one that bothers me.This Guardian article provides another (visual) view of what it could look like if the bronze doors were installed. I must say that I would have no issues with the motif on the right side, and I would have no issues with new bronze doors as such. The more I think about it, the more I like this image that covers the whole door, instead of a number of small rectangular cases depicting various scenes from the Bible or the life of a saint or similar, a style which I think it is not uncommon.
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Sadly I'm not -- and although it falls short of a profanation as such, it's clearly so in intention.I'm surprised that the ecclesiastical authorities gave the thumbs-up to this project
There's a difference between Imitatio Christi and figuring yourself as God.You learn something every day. Just about forgivable in the case of Rembrandt but still at least conceited for anyone else.
That's actually a traditional portrayal of Christ Regnant, suggesting Adam to have been Created in the Image of Christ.portraying God the Father as an old human. (Yes, I know, Sistine Chapel and all that, but still...)
This seems rather common when an artist is commissioned to create an item that will be publicly displayed. If not a family member, then a close friend Mona Lisa (da Vinci), the Naked Maja (Goya), a number of military statues are modeled by family members. If a aspiring writer is told write what you know, then I guess a sculptor is likely to sculpt who he knows...best.Yes, it seems this specific artist always uses his family as models. Not sure if I like it... But, who am I?
So that's apparently nothing unusual.
Usually I don't bother when one of my remarks is taken out of context. In this case, I got curious what on earth I had possibly said. I had quoted a news article where the writer had remarked that the artist, Antonio Lopez, had often used family members as models throughout his long career. Antonio Lopez does not specialise in religious art. What I've seen of his paintings is pretty secular. For the life of me, I cannot imagine that this is "deliberately insulting to Catholics". I guess you probably wanted to express something else ...This is beyond unusual, it's deliberately insulting to Catholics.
Or, more to the point perhaps, an old man with a beard. I share your personal opinion. I've refrained from expressing my personal opinion about this motif in particular. Forum rules ...What I personally find objectionable is the return of portraying God the Father as an old human.
Or perhaps I simply disagreed in that manner with your actual comment.Usually I don't bother when one of my remarks is taken out of context. In this case, I got curious what on earth I had possibly said. I had quoted a news article where the writer had remarked that the artist, Antonio Lopez, had often used family members as models throughout his long career. Antonio Lopez does not specialise in religious art. What I've seen of his paintings is pretty secular. For the life of me, I cannot imagine that this is "deliberately insulting to Catholics". I guess you probably wanted to express something else ...
Fundamentally this is a thread about a proposed architectural and aesthetic abuse of an ancient & historic Gothic church.Forum rules ...
I'm just genuinely curious: Where these sculptures Romanesque? I think I know what you mean. I've not seen it in real life but in an online course about Romanesque art in Spanish churches, and this Burgos project reminded me of it.just reminds me way way too much of the giant head thing as illustrated in the famous Apple commercial some years back. (Pace some sculptures of the Holy Trinity that we saw in Portugal.)
Rebekah - I certainly agree with your general idea that, in art, as in many things, the "new" should not be rejected out of hand, simply for being different than what we are accustomed to. However, these new doors are just a smidge hideous for my taste and detract from, rather than add anything to the cathedral.We of the 21st century have something to add to the beauties of the past. How many of us ever noticed the church doors before now? Why are the old ones suddenly so important?
It's taken me some time to come to a conclusion on this issue, but I've decided I rather like the current proposal. It's a little bit of 21st century pasted onto the historical pastiche that's already the front of that noble old church. The artist's identity will vanish in time, and the egotism of our time (if the plan goes through) enshrined there for ages to come. They will, in turn, venerate these bronzes as The Art of Our Ancestors!
If we do not add to the glories of the past with our own expressions in our own style, we are turning our cathedrals into mausoleums and museums of the past. Churches are living places, after all!
Once again, thank you for your very thorough research.I found a more detailed engraving of how the façade looked like before the "mutilation" in previous centuries. It shows the original "iconographic programme" of the Gothic era which is all gone now and which, according to Cathedral sources, the new doors are supposed to develop or express in a contemporary way, though not very successfully it appears, given the strong objections.
And I found a podcast where the artist himself says something about what the three motifs on the new doors show: un Dios universal, de todas las religiones, un ser supremo, el creador de todo, el ser protagonista; la Virgen asistente (I noticed something in the sky that could be the shape of a dove or represent something more spiritual]; Jesus niño, no hombre, niño, niño de dos, tres años, riente, jugando, en un jardín, al fondo Santa Ana y la Virgen, una escena familial, and I can't clearly hear the words of the rest of what he says.
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I would also encourage this, some posts that breached #Rule 2 have already been removed.Another thing: I'd like to appeal to everyone to keep their personal religious beliefs TO THEMSELVES, to the extent that the thread remains open. I've not revealed mine. I rarely do.
“They carry messages for the observer...” I thought immediately of the high crosses and Ogham stones in Celtic culture. They served that purpose, I believe. Jump to the twentieth century and you find examples of street art and architecture with a similar purpose: educating the people. Actually, don’t jump. Go carefully through history and all of art! See you back here in ten years or so!Another thing: I'd like to appeal to everyone to keep their personal religious beliefs TO THEMSELVES, to the extent that the thread remains open. I've not revealed mine. I rarely do. I try to understand things, how others view them, how they are generally viewed. I often like to share what I discovered.
During my long walk to Santiago, I developed an interest in medieval iconography and in these visual "programmes" as they are called and that we can see on so many Romanesque and Gothic portals and capitals of columns along the Camino. When we did the forum threads on Romanesque and Gothic art, I think nobody mentioned that these sculptures are not just pleasing art, they carry messages for the observer that are not so easy to decipher today as they were then. These visuals are often called the "Bible of the Poor" because, unlike us, medieval men and women did not have easy access to print material let alone the internet.
It is a flock of birds flying in formation and at the same time a reflection of the "Mystery of the Incarnation" and the "Holy Spirit".a Virgen asistente (I noticed something in the sky above her that could be the shape of a dove or represent something more spiritual];
I think it was a crucifix with God the Father as embracing older man and I think Holy Spirit as dove...let me see if I took a photo, I think it was the castle in Tomar entrance? I think the artist was expressing the Crucifixion (sp?) as a gift, now I'm not sure where the HS is portrayed in the statue, I just was in the line and noticed and took the photo.I'm just genuinely curious: Where these sculptures Romanesque? I think I know what you mean. I've not seen it in real life but in an online course about Romanesque art in Spanish churches, and this Burgos project reminded me of it.
Thank you for indulging my curiosity, @Texas Walker. This is not as unusual as the Romanesque sculptures that I had in mind, also related to the concept of Trinity. The dove is portrayed right above the top of the cross, btw.it was a crucifix with God the Father as embracing older man and I think Holy Spirit as dove.
The author of the Gronze article that is linked in the first post writes that "basically, God the Father is a large-scale self-portrait of António López [the sculptor], the Virgin Mary his wife, and the Child God his son". He calls the sculptor egomaniacal. The organiser of the Change.org petition campaign also speaks of "egotistical". That helps to whip up the emotions, I guess.Who should be the models?
I was fascinated by the display of a whole wall of Romanesque and Gothic Marys with Child in the excellent museum attached to the Pamplona Cathedral. While we were looking at it, someone happened to be there who explained the postures and differences and meanings of the various statues to his companion and we caught some of it. I tried to find a source with such explanations on the internet later but no success. The Child ("Baby Jesus") is sometimes represented not as a baby or toddler but as a minuscule adult with adult facial features which looks odd to the contemporary observer.I am not familiar enough with various art eras to know it it is a Romanesque one or not. The general posture does remind me of the many, many Virgen de Puy statues on the Frances...a large flock of which are in the museo de Navarra.
I think so too. One should be careful about judging: I have a perfact example from my own home town, up here in the Arctic: 60 years ago, a new church was built here. It was VERY modern, and the protests were many and strong: Disgusting architecture, not a church, unworthy, etc. etc. Today, it is an international symbol and icon for our town, admired by tourists, and loved by us all. There is also a Norwegian postage stamp dedicated to it. See pictures of the church here. The official name is The Arctic Sea Cathedral.The more I see, the more I like it!
I'm not sure that this is the right question or the only question to ask. Not only the citizens of Burgos but also others from further away feel that they should have a say because they love the building and because we may feel that it doesn't belong to the Cathedral clergy but to "all of us" because it is part of the world's heritage.Should the citizens of Burgos have to endure public art that they find offensive to the eyes
It is, of course, up to UNESCO as to which sites they want to consider parts of the world heritage, just as it is up to others what doors to install. Whatever my opinion of the doors, I personally, won't consider the cathedral as a whole no longer an important piece of world heritage when they are installed. It will still be an impressive and magnificent monument (even though I may prefer the cathedral in León). In any case, it is best appreciated from the interior from whence the offending doors cannot be seen.Burgos Cathedral will lose its recognition as a World Heritage Site if the project to replace its doors is carried out
La Catedral de Burgos perderá su reconocimiento de Patrimonio de la Humanidad si se ejecuta el proyecto de sustitución de sus puertas
El embajador permanente en España de la Unesco, Juan Andrés Perello, ha explicado que ya se ha procedido a una retirada de este reconocimiento a otros monumentos en el pasado, algo que ha reconocido ser "muy doloroso".www.eldiario.es
The Unesco themselves - their World Heritage Committee - have not said anything for or against the doors. The Spanish Icomos organisation and now the Spanish Unesco ambassador spoke against it. The Burgos City Council (Ayuntamiento) officially voted in favour of the doors during their session a few days ago. Afaik, the only people who have the power to decide are the Cathedral and the regional government of Castilla y Leon. The Burgos archbishop who is in favour of the project but also prepared to put the doors on display inside if there is no other way (their plan B), is quoted as saying recently that they are pursuing the project:UNESCO may fret and fume and make noise for a while, but seriously, changing those doors seems not likely to be cause for revocation.
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