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Reflections of a secular "pilgrim"

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Wanderer64

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Long time forum listener, first time caller...

The Camino (and its many tributaries leading to Santiago) is steeped in Catholic tradition, mysticism and religious lore, which may intimidate, even dissuade non-believers thinking about undertaking a Camino pilgrimage. This religious aspect almost dissuaded me, and I'm glad it didn't. Having recently completed the trek from SJPP to Santiago, I'd like to offer a secular pilgrim's brief perspective and some encouragement to non-believers, or less-believers, grappling with question of whether the Camino is for them.

For me, I kept my expectations and pre-judgments to a minimum, both in the decision making stage (whether or not to undertake the long walk) and during my walk. Keeping an open mind really helped me get the most out of it.

I never considered myself a true pilgrim, in the spiritual sense of the term, yet I also didn't consider myself a Camino tourist during my walk. In fact I resent that label. Most people who undertake a long hike like this seem to be in it for more than the sightseeing, food or other tourist trappings. For this secular "pilgrim" the Camino was an existential odyssey of self-reflection and meditation, not to mention the fantastic health benefits to be gained by walking 800km with a full pack in 33 days. The happiest person in all of this will likely be my doctor.

For me the Camino, in addition to the aforementioned, provided a great opportunity to see northern Spain. And not just see it, but experience it in all its subtle detail and nuances. This kind of long distance walking experience transcends the tourist experience. It's a rare opportunity to be able to literally walk the span of country the size of Spain. You will experience culture, regions, traditions in ways no regular bus or train tourist will ever come close to.

In Spain, Franco's long reign of fascist dictatorship would have been impossible without the support of the Catholic Church; I have a hard time respecting an institution with so much blood and corruption on its hands. But as in politics, it's important to distinguish the institution power brokers from the many good people within. On the Camino I tried never to lose sight of this distinction. Religion may run thick and heavy along the Camino at times, but you needn't allow this to dictate your personal, secular pilgrimage.

I took the full audio tour of the Burgos cathedral, marveling at the artistic and architectural genius that went into its construction. Admittedly, this awe wore increasingly thin as I visited more and more cathedrals and churches along the Camino... "Oh look, another church, in Spain, what are the odds?" But I found that churches also served as great places of silence and sanctuary, a necessity for any pilgrim of any persuasion when the noise level at the albergue becomes a bit much.

By the time I arrived in Santiago, I was not overcome by joyous revelation or any feelings of the metaphysical sort, but I was filled with an enormous feeling of accomplishment and achievement. I had just completed something very unique that would likely impact my life for years to follow. There were many, myself included, who doubted my ability to walk the entire 800km.

I did attend the evening mass in Santiago the day of my arrival, but not out of any sense of religious feeling. Catholic rituals are pure theatre for me, theatre of the absurd, and to witness these theatrics (the big swinging incense burner was in play when I was there ) in one of the most important cathedrals in the Catholic world is a bit like a chance to see a Broadway play.

In the end the Camino walk was very personal and much more meaningful than the sum of religious symbols commonly associated with this historic pilgrimage. And that's why secular would-be pilgrims should not let the heavy religious undercurrents prevent them from getting just as much out of the experience as their religious cohorts.

Buen Camino!
 
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Interesting and honest post Wanderer, thanks.
I believe the Camino is for everyone, from anywhere at any time for any reason and that each of us will take away from it what we will. Hopefully all will give something back in return.
Buen Camino....................................................... Again?
 
Hi Wanderer64

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed reading it.

Buen Camino!
 
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Great post ... "an existential odyssey of self-reflection and meditation" - nice ;)
 
Great post! You've put my mind at ease about any stifling catholic atmosphere l that I might encounter
 
Great post! You've put my mind at ease about any stifling catholic atmosphere l that I might encounter


Whether one acknowledges it or not when one walks the CF one travels, in the broadest of terms, under the auspices of the Catholic church. That status of pilgrim on the Camino grants a protective mantle to each pilgrim from one end of the Spain to the other and we all benefit from hospitality, care and support this imparts. That 'immunity' is part of the patina of past, current and hopefully future Caminos .
XXX (fill as preferred!) forbid that any pilgrim would be suffocated/stifled by encountering to mention but a few:-
The unquestioning heartfelt kindness of the Sisters at Carrion de los Condes,
The inclusive benedictions of the priests at the pilgrim masses at Roncevalles, Triscastela et al,
The shelter of parochial albergues (set up and run by volunteers for decades before the CF became trendy),
The silent candlelit perfection of Santa Maria Real at O'Cebreiro providing a refuge in a storm-literally and metaphorically,
The attentions of the staff, volunteers and clergy in the Cathedral in their gracious daily reception of countless walking pilgrims -most of whom are understandably focused on the end of their own journey-and the gracious integration of their needs with those of other pilgrims along with all the other functions of a busy urban church
The invitation to celebrate and mark the end of your Camino by attending the pilgrims mass at the Cathedral-a ritual and sacrament that is profoundly significant for many and often precious even to those of different, little or no religious belief.
The personal joy (and yes even pride) of being 'processed' (for free) in the pilgrims office and receiving ones Compostela to show the folks at home.

All I was asked for in return was to make a modest financial contribution to the economy of the regions I walked through...oh and after being wished a heartfelt "buen Camino" by a local I was occasionally asked if I would carry a prayer to the shrine of Santiago for them or someone they knew.

Rather than ridiculing the beliefs and practices of one of ones Camino hosts (I'm separating church and state here) perhaps a pilgrim might-even from the most selfish of standpoints-at least consider giving thanks for them keeping their faith....and, in no little part, the Camino alive.
 
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I as a hike have over the years "lost" many friends all of whom nowadays as I say "I carry them all in my backpack on my hikes". I have enjoyed your post
Nellpilgrim and as you mentioned I have also been asked " carry a prayer" to Santiago. From a priest in Aguarda, passing thru elderly women to "percebeiras" (daring women who risk their lives to get percebes). All of then also entered my backpack on my route to Santiago de Compostela. And their prayers arrived.:)

Buen Camino!
 
I am genuinely sorry to have offended. By styfling atmosphere I don't mean encountering religious people or visiting religious places - I expect and hope to do both even though its not my reason for walking the camino. By styfling atmosphere I was referring to the more fundamentalist followers of the faith (bible bashers/ narrow minded folk). Im sure there are a few, and I was wondering to myself as I prepare, how much of this I will encounter. Your response is appreciated, not least to remind me to express myself less ambiguously.
Buen camino
Robert

Ps. My hair is thoroughly dry
 
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I am genuinely sorry to have offended. By styfling atmosphere I don't mean encountering religious people or visiting religious places - I expect and hope to do both even though its not my reason for walking the camino. By styfling atmosphere I was referring to the more fundamentalist followers of the faith (bible bashers/ narrow minded folk). Im sure there are a few, and I was wondering to myself as I prepare, how much of this I will encounter. Your response is appreciated, not least to remind me to express myself less ambiguously.
Buen camino
Robert

Ps. My hair is thoroughly dry


Bible bashers!!!!! I don´t know where you are from or where you live but you are completely mistaken.
I suggest you yourself should be more open-minded about what the Camino is and what you will find along it.

Buen Camino!
 
I was alone, around the corner at the computer in the cafe/bar in Tosantos trying to finish an e-mail home before it was time for supper in the albergue. As their card game continued, a small, mostly male, boisterous group of Spanish teenagers started to get a bit noisier. Suddenly one noticed me. "Shhh, perigrina". A quick glance, a slight pause and their conversation continued quietly without disturbing me.

The hotel in Leon that permitted me to stay longer because I was still ill, took the brunt of the frustration of the partiers who did not get two rooms despite their reservation.

I was in a cafeteria in Leon specifically to say thank you for their extreme kindness to me the previous summer. The cafe owner said to me, "No, no. It is I who thank you for the chance to help a Pilgrim."

I am always asking myself how my own country (or myself) would ever be so patient with thousands and thousands and thousands of people walking past my front door, day after day, after day.

I agree with nellpilgrim and appreciate that we who are not Catholics can be so graciously included in the blessings of this shelter:
Whether one acknowledges it or not when one walks the CF one travels, in the broadest of terms, under the auspices of the Catholic church. That status of pilgrim on the Camino grants a protective mantle to each pilgrim from one end of the Spain to the other and we all benefit from hospitality, care and support this imparts. That 'immunity' is part of the patina of past, current and hopefully future Caminos.
 
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So is mine.;) As you can see from my post (#21) on the thread -
Your most humorous event while walking

Buen Camino!
 
Robertc,
Your post came in while I was writing mine.

I think that the experiences in my post are the religious attitude you will encounter in Spain, rather than what you are fearing.

But also, listen to nell.
 
I walked both my Caminos (Frances) 12/13 years ago as a spiritual – not religious - pilgrim. I will walk my next Camino (spring 2015, VdlP) as the same.

I left the church (Protestant) of my childhood and young adulthood because I could not reconcile the institutional/organizational policies and dogma with my universalist, mystical nature. Though I am not Catholic, I have a very dear, elderly relative who is. She is one of the kindest, most generous and social-justice minded people I know. I also do not understand how she, or any religiously-identified person, reconciles their connection/devotion to a loving, benevolent diety with political institutions and hierarchies that have caused so much pain, division, hatred and death. But I appreciate her goodness and devotion.

I cannot speak for all non-religious pilgrims of course, only myself. But I’m sure I’m not alone in this struggle as I walk. I was/will be awed by and immensely grateful for the generosity, kindness and hospitality of all those along the way who serve and help the peregrinos. I was/will be awed by and immensely grateful for the beauty and opportunities for rest and peaceful contemplation provided by the art, architecture, parochial refugios and churches along the path.

I also was/will be very aware of the violent and bloody history of the Catholic church. As a peregrina – a woman – I am hyper-aware of the inequities of the institution. As the sister of a gay(and married) woman, I am hyper-aware of the inequities. As a spiritual “heretic”, I am hyper-aware of the history and inequities.

This awareness and struggle is part of my Camino, and it is real and legitimate. I would never say to anyone – and so I also expect not to be told – to, essentially, “shut up and be grateful, or stay home”. I am deeply grateful, but my voice – and my sadness over any pain and inequities in the world, including those caused by religious institutions – has a right to be heard. Until the church decides it wants to erect walls and make the Camino an exclusively, explicitly Catholic pilgrimage, then it belongs to all of us.

I can honor Santiago Peregrino and despair at Santiago Matamoros. I am walking to the ocean and the end of the earth.

Ultreia et Suseia to all,
Adrienne
 
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I walked both my Caminos (Frances) 12/13 years ago as a spiritual – not religious - pilgrim. I will walk my next Camino (spring 2015, VdlP) as the same.

I left the church (Protestant) of my childhood and young adulthood because I could not reconcile the institutional/organizational policies and dogma with my universalist, mystical nature. Though I am not Catholic, I have a very dear, elderly relative who is. She is one of the kindest, most generous and social-justice minded people I know. I also do not understand how she, or any religiously-identified person, reconciles their connection/devotion to a loving, benevolent diety with political institutions and hierarchies that have caused so much pain, division, hatred and death. But I appreciate her goodness and devotion.

I cannot speak for all non-religious pilgrims of course, only myself. But I’m sure I’m not alone in this struggle as I walk. I was/will be awed by and immensely grateful for the generosity, kindness and hospitality of all those along the way who serve and help the peregrinos. I was/will be awed by and immensely grateful for the beauty and opportunities for rest and peaceful contemplation provided by the art, architecture, parochial refugios and churches along the path.

I also was/will be very aware of the violent and bloody history of the Catholic church. As a peregrina – a woman – I am hyper-aware of the inequities of the institution. As the sister of a gay(and married) woman, I am hyper-aware of the inequities. As a spiritual “heretic”, I am hyper-aware of the history and inequities.

This awareness and struggle is part of my Camino, and it is real and legitimate. I would never say to anyone – and so I also expect not to be told – to, essentially, “shut up and be grateful, or stay home”. I am deeply grateful, but my voice – and my sadness over any pain and inequities in the world, including those caused by religious institutions – has a right to be heard. Until the church decides it wants to erect walls and make the Camino an exclusively, explicitly Catholic pilgrimage, then it belongs to all of us.

I can honor Santiago Peregrino and despair at Santiago Matamoros. I am walking to the ocean and the end of the earth.

Ultreia et Suseia to all,
Adrienne

I enjoyed reading your post and I agree with you on almost everything in it but I must say that the Camino IS a Catholic pilgrimage which people of other faiths or people without any have decided to do.

Buen Camino!
 
I enjoyed reading your post and I agree with you on almost everything in it but I must say that the Camino IS a Catholic pilgrimage which people of other faiths or people without any have decided to do.

Buen Camino!
Thank you for your reply!

Honestly, I disagree - I do not accept that the Camino is a "Catholic pilgrimage". It is no secret that it has an older, pre-Christian history. Really, all the major, dominant religions have co-opted elements of what came before them.

History is written by the conquerors, not the conquered. Certainly, Catholicism dominates the Camino now, but I don't believe that that de-legitimizes or negates the other elements of its history or non-Catholic elements or motivations for walking it.

cheers,
Adrienne
 
Thank you as well.

Let´s agree to disagree.

The first records date back to the 9th century from the Kingdom of Asturias ( Camino Primitivo).

Buen Camino!
 
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nellpilgrim enough of this shy retiring wallflower behavior, say what you mean ! :)
At least robertc won't need a hairdryer.... I didn't feel he was ridiculing at all.


Hi Steve
Moi a shrinking :confused:? I think not! I also stated clearly what think ...but if needed I can 'unpack' that a bit more! (though on second thoughts perhaps we 'should take it outside' and PM if it's going to get a bit heated;))
In retrospect I should have also quoted from the leading post of the thread, the one to which robertc was responding, to give a fuller background and context for my reply. This included "Catholic rituals are pure theatre for me, theatre of the absurd, and to witness these theatrics (the big swinging incense burner was in play when I was there ) in one of the most important cathedrals in the Catholic world is a bit like a chance to see a Broadway play" I wasn't offended but find it plain 'ornery' to be choose to be discourteous to the Catholic church in the context of the Camino Frances -where it behaves with generosity and inclusiveness.
And Robertc I think your hair is just perfect I felt no need to trim it at all;)... nor did I take personal offense but we pilgrims get so much from Spain-from the local people, organisations, regional authorities and the Catholic church we need to acknowledge that especially if, with the increase in pilgrim traffic, we want that sort of support to continue.
Bonne route
N
 
I do not accept that the Camino is a "Catholic pilgrimage". It is no secret that it has an older, pre-Christian history.
Can you document that a bit for us? The Romans had roads in order to exploit the resources of Spain, but a pilgrimage? To what?
 
This is an interesting and educational thread for me to read. It helps me to understand more fully the diversity of some of the people who walk or plan to walk a Camino.

Each to their own my friends.

Buen Camino to you all.
 
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Hi Steve
Moi a shrinking :confused:? I think not! I also stated clearly what think ...but if needed I can 'unpack' that a bit more! (though on second thoughts perhaps we 'should take it outside' and PM if it's going to get a bit heated;))
In retrospect I should have also quoted from the leading post of the thread, the one to which robertc was responding, to give a fuller background and context for my reply. This included "Catholic rituals are pure theatre for me, theatre of the absurd, and to witness these theatrics (the big swinging incense burner was in play when I was there ) in one of the most important cathedrals in the Catholic world is a bit like a chance to see a Broadway play" I wasn't offended but find it plain 'ornery' to be choose to be discourteous to the Catholic church in the context of the Camino Frances -where it behaves with generosity and inclusiveness.
And Robertc I think your hair is just perfect I felt no need to trim it at all;)... nor did I take personal offense but we pilgrims get so much from Spain-from the local people, organisations, regional authorities and the Catholic church we need to acknowledge that especially if, with the increase in pilgrim traffic, we want that sort of support to continue.
Bonne route
N

Hi N,

My original post in this thread is not intended to be ornery or discourteous, so apologies if you've interpreted it as such. My thoughts reflect an honest account of my experiences as a secular person who walked the CF. During my journey I was always respectful of Camino traditions, and respectful of religious believers and non-believers alike. I was always grateful for the charitable volunteerism and kindness I experienced along the Way, even if I did find the Catholic undercurrents a bit too strong for my liking at times. And incidentally, I've never viewed kindness and charity as a Catholic trait, but rather a human trait.

Moreover, for a secular pilgrim to describe cathedral rituals as theatrical and absurd, you can choose to take offence to this, or you can view this with a broad mind as part of overall diversity of all pilgrims that make it all the more interesting a place to spend time walking. If all pilgrims thought exactly like you or like me, it would be a pretty boring, dour place from a social vantage.

My underlying message remains thus: the Camino is a wonderful walk, a tolerant place open to all, regardless of religion or creed. I hope it stays that way.
 
Speaking for myself I have not found your post ornery or discourteous. As I said above I enjoyed it.:)
 
Under the auspices of the Catholic Church my ass!
 
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'I've never viewed kindness and charity as a Catholic trait, but rather a human trait.'

The Camino has a spirit running through : the Spanish people you meet and the pilgrims too. All of us are on a road of discovering new experiences and new friends .
I found that spirit to be infectious and good, what ever you consider that spirit to be, 'Secular ' or 'Spiritual' does it really matter if it is good embrace it with thanks. Either WAY it is a gift to us all.
 
Can you document that a bit for us? The Romans had roads in order to exploit the resources of Spain, but a pilgrimage? To what?
Document? Heh..... no. ;) I can't claim to be a historian or have any specific documentation.

But here are some things I know (and by "know", I mean in both the "factual" and/or "soul" sense of the word).....

~ All of the major, modern religions have pagan/pre-history/pre-Christian roots. Myths, holidays, traditions, saints and saviors have been absorbed and co-opted throughout the millennia.

~ There is little to no definitive documentation that I'm aware of the Camino's pre-Christian history. But as I mentioned above, history is written by the conquerors, not the conquered. The Camino did not happen in a vacuum, magically springing out of nowhere in a Christian world.

~ I can't add anything about the Camino's pre-Christian roots that others do not already know or have heard reference to - Roman roads, Venus and the scallop shell, ars solis, ruta de las estrellas, ley lines, pagan/megalithic symbols and ruins along the ways..... I don't know how much historical/archeological truth there is to any or all of it. From a spiritual standpoint (not the only "standpoint" in my life, though), myth and story-telling are of far more importance to me than literal "proof".

Most importantly though - most significant to me - is the human drive to pilgrimage, for reasons religious, spiritual, social, psychological, physical and inexplicable. Whether it is on the Camino or to Rome or Mecca..... on the Appalachian Trail, a Nepal trek or the top of a mountain..... in a labyrinth in a city park...... That drive is much larger than just the Camino, and far larger than the Catholic dominance on the route. That drive is ancient.

Many do, and have done, the Camino for devoutly Catholic reasons. The culture of Spain and the history of the Catholic church do exert significant influence on the pilgrimage. That can be acknowledged and appreciated and experienced with joy and gratitude (as well as a skeptical eye and realist's view of history). But Christianity is young, a newcomer. Pilgrimage is ancient and innate to our natures.

So I still reject that it is a "Catholic" pilgrimage. It is only a Catholic pilgrimage for Catholics. Unless a particular pilgrimage route is explicitly and exclusively deemed religious with all others forbidden (eg Mecca), then it belongs to all those wander and seek and walk.

Wherever you go, there you are.
Adrienne
 
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The Camino has nothing to do with the Romans at all.
As i mentioned above the first records date back to the 9th century from the Kingdom of Asturias ( Camino Primitivo).
They were Catholics.

The earliest recorded pilgrims from beyond the Pyrenees visited the shrine in the middle of the 11th century
They were Catholics as well.

In the 12th century Pope Callixtus II started the Jubileos.
He was Catholic as well.

Protestantism didn´t start till 16th centuary.

Muslims have no connection with the Camino either.

Jews ...... nope.

Hindu..... even less.

And for Pre Christian origin....... no documentation what so ever.

Buen Camino!
 
Long time forum listener, first time caller...

The Camino (and its many tributaries leading to Santiago) is steeped in Catholic tradition, mysticism and religious lore, which may intimidate, even dissuade non-believers thinking about undertaking a Camino pilgrimage. This religious aspect almost dissuaded me, and I'm glad it didn't.

Keeping an open mind really helped me get the most out of it. You will experience culture, regions, traditions in ways no regular bus or train tourist will ever come close to.

I did attend the evening mass in Santiago the day of my arrival, but not out of any sense of religious feeling. Catholic rituals are pure theatre for me, theatre of the absurd, and to witness these theatrics (the big swinging incense burner was in play when I was there ) in one of the most important cathedrals in the Catholic world is a bit like a chance to see a Broadway play.

In the end the Camino walk was very personal and much more meaningful than the sum of religious symbols commonly associated with this historic pilgrimage. And that's why secular would-be pilgrims should not let the heavy religious undercurrents prevent them from getting just as much out of the experience as their religious cohorts.

Buen Camino!
I have chopped out a large part of Wanderer64's post, to try and highlight the part that I would like to comment on.
At the beginning of the post, I was thinking to post " like" until I arrived towards the end
As the OP will have found, there is no need to walk the Camino as a Catholic. I'm sure that no one started a religious bashing conversation with him about his lack of faith! On all my Caminos I do not remember ever once having got involved in a religious conversation. And I walk the Camino mainly for religious reasons. It is a Pilgrimage for me!
All well, until I reached the end of the post, where I can understand that Wanderer64 has no idea at all what the Liturgy of the Church entails. Had he taken a moment to ask why this or why that, he might have understood that these, so called "rituals" are something quite different. The botafumero is yes, spectacular and unique. Definitely theatrical. This has nothing to do with the solemnity of the Mass. And to partake Mass in the Cathedral if Santiago, where so many people are mere spectators, often there just to see the swinging of the botafumero, is not a usual Mass, by no means. If he really wanted to understand and participate the solemnity of the Mass, ( which, in fact, I don't think he did), then he should have chosen another place or time to do so. But not at the Pilgrims Mass in the Cathedral of Santiago! Having said that, a very large number of Pilgrims are deeply moved when attending this Mass. its sufficient to glance around and see how many are shedding more than a tear or two. Anne
 
Of the monastery in Roncesvalles, a 12th century poet wrote:

The door lies open to all,
to sick and strong.
Not only to Catholics but to pagans too; Jews, heretics, idlers, vagabonds.
In short, to good and bad,
sacred and profane.

I personally think that the Camino is a Catholic pilgrimage..... for Catholics. For the pagans, jews, heretics, idlers and vagabonds it may not be. But it is often a sacred pilgrimage nonetheless. As a part-time heretic, idler and vagabond who is born from the union of a Jew and a Roman Catholic, I suppose I must fit in there somewhere. For me, it was indeed an authentic pilgrimage, albeit not a Catholic one.

All of that said, I think it is a mistake to deny the amazing gifts brought to the Camino by both individual Catholics and by the institution as a whole. However, I think it is also acceptable to express legitimate criticism of the Church at the same time.... I was especially disturbed at things like the plaque honoring the "true Spanish heroes" of the "War against Communists" (i.e., the fascists in the Spanish Civil War) on one church along the Camino (I would need to see my photos to remember where exactly). The sins of the Catholic Church – as well as its may blessings and good acts – are both historical and contemporary. Where I personally believe any of us make a mistake is in claiming exclusive ownership of the "truth".... or even of the Camino.
 
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The Camino has nothing to do with the Romans at all.

I find that statement astounding! How much of the Camino follows ancient Roman roads and passes through Roman ruins? My Camino has much to do with the Romans. For my boots to pound those ancient paths, centuries of human history, enveloping and bolstering my experience..... wow. It makes me feel very small, and yet somehow significant at the same time.....

As i mentioned above the first records date back to the 9th century from the Kingdom of Asturias ( Camino Primitivo).
They were Catholics.

The earliest recorded pilgrims from beyond the Pyrenees visited the shrine in the middle of the 11th century
They were Catholics as well.
.....
And for Pre Christian origin....... no documentation what so ever.

A lack of records is not proof that something didn't happen or exist.
Of course, Pre-history means a lack of recorded history.
And in historical periods, Christianity was responsible for the destruction of a mind-numbing amount of ancient/pagan/pre-Christian knowledge and records.
Burn it to the ground, and then say, "Look, we got here first" or "We invented this"? No.

Muslims have no connection with the Camino either.

Except perhaps for the disturbing image of them being crushed under the hooves of the saint's white charger that passes for religious decoration in too many Camino churches?
The Moorish/Spanish history has had a great deal of influence on the Camino.

cheers,
Adrienne
 
The Romans were at one time in Spain as well as most part of the known world at the time. There sole purpose was the extract riches from these lands including Spain. Nothing more.

Please as they say in Spanish " No mezclemos las churras con las merinas." One thing is Pre Christian and another Pre History.

Regarding Muslims. As they were driven south the Camino moved south towards flatter land. From the Camino del Norte to the Camino Frances.

Btw it´s very convenient and I quote "myth and story-telling are of far more importance to me than literal "proof".
On that basis there is no possible way to discuss.

I wish you well and hope you a Buen Camino!:)
 
... At the beginning of the post, I was thinking to post " like" until I arrived towards the end...
All well, until I reached the end of the post, where I can understand that Wanderer64 has no idea at all what the Liturgy of the Church entails. Had he taken a moment to ask why this or why that, he might have understood that these, so called "rituals" are something quite different... If he really wanted to understand and participate the solemnity of the Mass, ( which, in fact, I don't think he did), then he should have chosen another place or time to do so.... Anne

Anne, my aim in the OP is not to win forum "likes," but to share my thoughts, which I think might benefit especially other would-be pilgrims of a secular persuasion. Implied in my post is not a judgment of believers such as you who walk for religious reasons.

Further, I'd be more careful about claiming what fellow forum members know or don't know about this or that Catholic ritual, or any other subject for that matter. I probably know more than your giving me credit for. I would never be so bold as to speculate on your knowledge level on a topic based merely on a single, very general posting to an Internet forum.

And by the way, unlike you I had many and varied discussions with fellow pilgrims (and others) on topics of the Camino's meanings, philosophy, and about religion, and all of those discussions were immensely enjoyable and very civil. It only reaffirmed my experience that the Camino attracts a diverse group of walkers and pilgrims.

So to return to my OP, if you are a secular, non-religious type really keen on walking the Camino, but are concerned about the Catholic/religious/spiritual undercurrents, you have nothing to worry about. Follow your heart, walk if you feel compelled, walk with tolerance, but walk for your own reasons.

Thanks to all for the many great points made through the thread.

Buen Camino!
 
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Wanderer64 has no idea at all what the Liturgy of the Church entails.

I find it interesting that when someone disagrees with something, they are assumed to not understand it. "If only he understood the Liturgy of the Church, he would appreciate it." However, often there are legitimate disagreements that are not based upon a misunderstanding of the facts, but are instead based upon differing values and/or interpretation of those facts. It is, indeed, possible to have a deep and profound understanding of the function and role of something (like liturgy) and yet find it to be worthy of critique.
 
The Romans were at one time in Spain as well as most part of the known world at the time. There sole purpose was the extract riches from these lands including Spain. Nothing more.

And you can say the same of the Spanish in the Americas. Quite the bloody and self-serving history as well. That doesn't negate their lasting influence to the culture, architecture, infrastructure and landscape of those regions. Such is history.

Please as they say in Spanish " No mezclemos las churras con las merinas." One thing is Pre Christian and another Pre History.

I was not conflating the two.
Pre-history is sans written records. Hence, we rely on archaeological records.
And then there are historical times which includes pre-Christian times. And in those historical times, Christians destroyed a great deal of the historical, pre-Christian written records.
I think my sheep, in that regard, are quite well sorted.

Regarding Muslims. As they were driven south the Camino moved south towards flatter land. From the Camino del Norte to the Camino Frances.

Um, yes, I know that. Unclear on how that addresses the topic. The Moorish/Spanish history, like the Roman history, and specifically Catholic history, have influenced the Camino - its path, culture, art and architecture.

But all of that diverts from my main point that, despite the Catholic influence and history of the Camino, it is only a "Catholic pilgrimage" to Catholics. It may be a "Jewish pilgrimage", "Hindu pilgrimage", "Muslim pilgrimage", "Buddhist pilgrimage", "secular pilgrimage", "spiritual pilgrimage", etc. to others.

The hospitality, generosity, kindness and help I received on my Caminos came from pilgrims, hospitaleros and locals of all (or no) religions. That is the spirit of the Camino, not exclusively the spirit of Catholicism.

Btw it´s very convenient and I quote "myth and story-telling are of far more importance to me than literal "proof".
On that basis there is no possible way to discuss.

The condescension of your choice of the word "convenient" aside.....
I come from the perspective that all religions are "myth and story-telling".
And documentation, records and history can be spotty, unreliable or non-existent for many reasons already mentioned.
What many accept as "proof" in the form of records and documentation are often written from a biased religious/political perspective after burning the rest.
In that light, those who claim the Camino is an exclusively "Catholic pilgrimage" based solely on the currently existing Catholic and Catholic-influenced records are not working with "literal proof" in my book either.
 
espite the Catholic influence and history of the Camino, it is only a "Catholic pilgrimage" to Catholics. It may be a "Jewish pilgrimage", "Hindu pilgrimage", "Muslim pilgrimage", "Buddhist pilgrimage", "secular pilgrimage", "spiritual pilgrimage", etc. to others.

Amen.
 
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Everyone gets his own opinion on what walking the Camino de Santiago means to him, but you don't get your own facts. There was no known pilgrimage along the route until the Catholics promoted the pilgrimage to the tomb of St. James. The tomb was discovered during the reign of Alfonso II (792 to 824), and the pilgrimage was heavily promote by Archbishop Diego GelmĂ­rez (1100-1140). It is a Catholic pilgrimage on the order of the pilgrimage to Rome. Everyone is welcome, of course.
 
It is a Catholic pilgrimage on the order of the pilgrimage to Rome.

Not disputing that fact. Simply saying it is ALSO a non-Catholic pilgrimage for many other people. As someone who has walked the Camino as a pilgrim, I can testify that this too is a fact. There may have been no historical pilgrimage until it was started and promoted by the Church. However, today, thousands of non-Catholc pilgrims annually demonstrate the fact that it is no longer exclusively a Catholic pilgrimage.... Unless you contend that every non-practicing Roman Catholic on the Camino today is not a legitimate pilgrim..... In which case, we simply and profoundly disagree.
 
I'm an atheist and enjoyed both the Frances and the Salvador. I don't know if I walked as a pilgrim, more in the spirit of the hobo (albeit middle class hobo by choice). Atheism isn't really something that I came across in later years, I was brought up Church of Scotland as a kid which is kind of atheism with a bit singing. Even the ministers are non-committal, it's just an excuse for a weekly gathering. I guess that's just the Scottish liking for festivities and pragmatism coming together.

I'd never really encountered "real" Catholicism before I'd walked the Frances. As a secular outsider I did actually find it a bit uncomfortable, every church seemed to be covered in images of torture and abuse. The lovely thing about the Salvador was seeing the incredible early pre-Romanesque churches which were covered in images of nature worship, I felt a connection to them. You really got a feel these were places of celebration and if organised religion was still run along the same lines I'd probably be there occasionally (though not too often). Seeing in a church someone tied half-naked to a tree and shot full of arrows I just find disturbing. Given the eras that a lot of this imagery was produced (Inquisition, Imperial Spain, Franco) I can't help thinking it was to portray a message of "this could be you next". It's about an Authority establishing control. Also, given the recent history/scandals of the Catholic church at home, looking at stuff like that leaves a bit of an unpleasant taste in the mouth... it's not stuff I'd want my daughter to see or to be left in the care of someone who is into stuff like that. I just can't resolve it all in my head. I'm sure there is more good than bad done but, as someone who considers themselves a neutral observer, it really unsettles me. On the other hand, the pilgrim masses that I ended up being persuaded to attend were incredibly welcoming and had a real spirit of hospitality.

On the other hand, the stuff that matters i.e. the people you encounter, could not have been different. I met a lot of both very commiitted religious and spiritual people, nobody preached or prosletysed and they were as accepting of me, a vagabond, as I was of them, pilgrims in the literal sense. At no point did I feel uncomfortable in the presence of anyone else regardless of their views and I hope that no-one felt uncomfortable with mine. I don't think you can ask any more than that.
 
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Everyone gets his own opinion on what walking the Camino de Santiago means to him, but you don't get your own facts. There was no known pilgrimage along the route until the Catholics promoted the pilgrimage to the tomb of St. James. The tomb was discovered during the reign of Alfonso II (792 to 824), and the pilgrimage was heavily promote by Archbishop Diego GelmĂ­rez (1100-1140). It is a Catholic pilgrimage on the order of the pilgrimage to Rome. Everyone is welcome, of course.
This is not about having my own facts.

I have not disputed the Catholic history of the Camino. That is an undisputed fact.

But no one here can say as an undisputed fact that there is no pre-Catholic religious significance to the Camino. Understanding of pre-Christian history, of the way newer religions absorb and co-opt the older ones, and the way recorded history is shaped/created/destroyed by those in power at the time - along with some archaeological evidence of pagan symbolism along certain parts and evidence of Finisterre being a pilgrimage beyond the relics of Compostela, etc. - well, I think an open mind on those matters is warranted.

Even if it were proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Camino's history is entirely and exclusively Catholic, it would still not change my pilgrimage and its personal significance. And it would still not change the contemporary embracing of the Camino as an experience that transcends putting it in a narrow, religious box. It would not change the spirit of the Camino and those along it who support the peregrinos.

Can you say the same? If evidence or records came to light that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Camino's history was much older than Catholicism, that it's origins were pagan and that the Catholic church was a modern usurper..... would it change your Camino?
 
But no one here can say as an undisputed fact that there is no pre-Catholic religious significance to the Camino.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

Shirley MacLaine had visions of unisex creatures from which humans descended. There is no evidence in several hundred millions of years of evolutionary record to indicate such a thing, but she asserts it as fact. Since a negative cannot be proven, I suppose she should be taken as credible?
 
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

Yes, well, Christopher Hitchens was a warmongering, misogynist old drunk, so..... yeah, there's that.

This is a funny quote for you to choose, anyway, considering it was made by Hitchens as an atheist argument against blind faith.

I prefer the more eloquently stated Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Regardless, I am not making gratuitous assertions, so this doesn't precisely apply. It is not at all gratuitous to suggest that the Camino, or parts of it, may have some lost, absorbed or suppressed pre-Catholic history. There are legitimate factors of culture, religion, politics and history that render those pre-Catholic elements harder to piece together or get a fuller picture of. As long as we're throwing quotes around, I'll offer that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Shirley MacLaine had visions of unisex creatures from which humans descended. There is no evidence in several hundred millions of years of evolutionary record to indicate such a thing, but she asserts it as fact. Since a negative cannot be proven, I suppose she should be taken as credible?

Ah, endearing, amusing and totally looney Shirley MacLaine.

Seriously? Shirley MacLaine's assertion of our Lemurian ancestry is not a valid analogy to a considered discussion on the pre-Catholic history of Spain and pilgrimage. First off, unlike Lemurians and Atlantians, we actually do have proof that there was such a creature as the "pre-Christian" and they did actually live in Spain. :rolleyes: Second...... uh...... forget it, your argument is so fallacious, it doesn't even require any serious-minded debunking.
 
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Much illogical silliness on this thread. To deny that the Camino is primarily a Catholic pilgrimage is nonsense. The fact that other non-Christian events took place at some places that happen to be on the Camino before the Camino is irrelevant. This route is a path chosen by believers and supported by Catholic religious institutions to take these pilgrims to a place of worship. This isn't a path to Mecca or the Rose Bowl Parade route. It was established to take Catholic pilgrims to the place where they believe St James is buried.

This modern day route is open for all to follow for whatever reason. I haven't heard anyone say that it is exclusively for Catholics. That is a straw man. To deny or cheapen it's Catholic pilgrimage lineage though, is sophistry at best.

Let me make an analogy. If you find yourself at Yankee Stadium watching the Yanks play the Sox, you are at a Yankee game. You might not be a Yankee fan. You might be a Sox fan. You might be there because you like the beer and hotdogs. Maybe you are taking a client out to discuss business. For whatever reason you are there, it is still a Yankee game. It doesn't matter if Indians lived on the land before the Stadium was built. You are still at a Yankee game.

All that being said, I hope everyone enjoys their Camino for whatever reason they are on this journey and I hope they find peace and fulfillment.

Buen Camino Todos!
 
This was not a post that caught my interest till I saw that the number of responses kept getting larger and larger. And so, today I jumped in. Wow. I have walked a Camino every year since 2000 except for one, and I have wrestled with a lot of the questions presented here. I don't think any of the "pro-Catholic" posters are trying to delegitimize the experience of the secular or irreligious or anti-religious peregrinos, but I really can't understand the argument that this is not a Catholic pilgrimage route. It's a pilgrimage to the place where Santiago is purportedly buried, it started more than a thousand years ago as a pilgrimage to the place where Santiago is purportedly buried. It may go over Roman roads in places, but I don't think that means it is a Roman pilgrimage route.

If you don't believe that Santiago is a saint or that he is buried there,that's fine, you don't have to believe that. But that doesn't mean that your belief suddently converts a Catholic pilgrimage into a pilgrimage of any and every other belief. People of any and every other belief may walk this pilgrimage route and may find that the Camino does many wonderful things for their psyches and their souls. But they are walking a Catholic pilgrimage route.
 
"Move along there, nothing to see here, move along..... :)"

Isn't this thread WONDERFUL ? I think we all agree we love the Camino and it's various routes. There is disagreement about much else. However apparently deep these differences, we are still more united than divided by them.
Bon Camino
 
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The camino is exactly what it is. It is always changing, as the pilgrims walking on it are always changing.
A week ago, a French pilgrim collapsed along the camino. Some of his fellow pilgrims helped him into my car, and I took him to the health center in Sahagun. Along the way he asked me why I do these things.
"For the love of God," I told him.
He proceeded to tell me how stupid it is to believe in God, that our humanity is all we need to get along in the world. "As you like it," I told him.
When I left him at the doctor´s office, he embraced me and said thank-you. And told me it´s OK if I want to pray for him.

We are all travelers on the way to the same place. What labels we choose to wear on the way, and what names we give to the path itself, make little difference, really.
 
Well said Rebekah, thank you !
 
Wayfarer - your post wasn't rude in any way, it was a delightful read. You may have made an error conflating Roman Catholics with 'bible bashers' but as a secular how would you know that there is a difference? One of the wonderful things about the Camino is that although it is a religious pilgrimage (secular guests welcome) of the Roman Catholic church, and has been for over 1200 years, there is no 'bible bashing' on it. Catholics don't seem to see the need for that and 'bible bashers' are found in the evangelic denominations well outside the church of Rome. The strange thing is (I am very glad to say) that 'bible bashers', evangelics in the modern aggressive sense, never appear on the Caminos.

The pre-history of the Camino as a pre-christian pilgrimage route is mainly wishful thinking. The Celts, and the peoples before them, had no written languages so they could never write anything down .. so there are no records, not even in folklore. There are some standing stones - but there are standing stones throughout Western Europe. Wishful thinking about golden ages is a pleasant thing for some people, but this world, the one we actually live in, knows of only one pilgrimage to Santiago, that of the Church of Rome, to the remains of St James.
 
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Thank you for that Rebekah so well put , a pilgrim is a pilgrim everything else is blessings.
 
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I am genuinely sorry to have offended. By styfling atmosphere I don't mean encountering religious people or visiting religious places - I expect and hope to do both even though its not my reason for walking the camino. By styfling atmosphere I was referring to the more fundamentalist followers of the faith (bible bashers/ narrow minded folk). Im sure there are a few, and I was wondering to myself as I prepare, how much of this I will encounter. Your response is appreciated, not least to remind me to express myself less ambiguously.
Buen camino
Robert

Ps. My hair is thoroughly dry

Hello Robert, I will be curious as you go on Camino if you meet anyone that meets your description. I don't think you will, but there is always a first time for everything. The Camino is a true pilgrimage; it has a spiritual purpose for being for so long. However, it has long since evolved into a free-for-all with welcoming arms for all who hear the call. It is surprising to meet those who go on Camino several times; they come from all walks of life from around the world. Some are deeply spiritual and others are not; but each is committed to this long trail of hope and peace for their own reasons.

I hope that you find yours and that you have a great Camino.
 
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I just like the walk,the countryside,the company,I feel left out of things, my likes arent complicated enough..;).............Vicrev

Hi vicrev the countryside and the company you like , sounds as though you have blessing to me, your in here mate, simple!!!
 
Wayfarer - your post wasn't rude in any way, it was a delightful read.
David, you may speak for yourself in these judgements, you certainly don't speak for all members of the forum. If the OP's later explanations of their intent contain a germ of truth, then the original post was an unnecessary spray of ridicule against the Catholic church, its rituals and its recent history in Spain. Ridicule might have its place in some forms of low humour, but I don't think it has a place here.

My view is that the OP's dislike of the Catholic church is a private matter. It has no public interest, and didn't need to be shared far and wide amongst relative strangers, certainly not in the manner in which that was done.

Regards,
 
David, you may speak for yourself in these judgements, you certainly don't speak for all members of the forum.
My view is that the OP's dislike of the Catholic church is a private matter. It has no public interest, and didn't need to be shared far and wide amongst relative strangers, certainly not in the manner in which that was done.
Regards,
dougfitz, I don't think anyone assumes they speak for all members, do they ? You seem to be setting yourself up as Censor. Good luck if that's what you want. I wasn't aware that what was posted here had to pass a public interest test. While most seek not to offend others, there is no right not to be offended. Similarly , the manner in which things are written is a matter for the writer.
 
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'I've never viewed kindness and charity as a Catholic trait, but rather a human trait.'

The Camino has a spirit running through : the Spanish people you meet and the pilgrims too. All of us are on a road of discovering new experiences and new friends .
I found that spirit to be infectious and good, what ever you consider that spirit to be, 'Secular ' or 'Spiritual' does it really matter if it is good embrace it with thanks. Either WAY it is a gift to us all.

I like your take on this. The 'divine' or whatever this means to folk takes many forms. For me it's all about light and consciousness and I am inspired by the Norse myths because they highlight an underlying truth if you can unpick the interpretations.
Anything that divides folk and causes disharmony is not nice in my view... You can see it clearly on this thread, so surely all we can do as compassionate beings is allow each other to be who we are. If I am this and you are that... So what? What can we all have in common? Love.... To me that is the only truth that endures.

Hate is so easy but leaves one regretful and burdened. Love is light like a beautiful Swedish sunset. I know which one I prefer!
 
The camino is exactly what it is. It is always changing, as the pilgrims walking on it are always changing.
A week ago, a French pilgrim collapsed along the camino. Some of his fellow pilgrims helped him into my car, and I took him to the health center in Sahagun. Along the way he asked me why I do these things.
"For the love of God," I told him.
He proceeded to tell me how stupid it is to believe in God, that our humanity is all we need to get along in the world. "As you like it," I told him.
When I left him at the doctor´s office, he embraced me and said thank-you. And told me it´s OK if I want to pray for him.

We are all travelers on the way to the same place. What labels we choose to wear on the way, and what names we give to the path itself, make little difference, really.

Beautifully put.
 
Wayfarer - your post wasn't rude in any way, it was a delightful read. You may have made an error conflating Roman Catholics with 'bible bashers' but as a secular how would you know that there is a difference? One of the wonderful things about the Camino is that although it is a religious pilgrimage (secular guests welcome) of the Roman Catholic church, and has been for over 1200 years, there is no 'bible bashing' on it. Catholics don't seem to see the need for that and 'bible bashers' are found in the evangelic denominations well outside the church of Rome. The strange thing is (I am very glad to say) that 'bible bashers', evangelics in the modern aggressive sense, never appear on the Caminos.

The pre-history of the Camino as a pre-christian pilgrimage route is mainly wishful thinking. The Celts, and the peoples before them, had no written languages so they could never write anything down .. so there are no records, not even in folklore. There are some standing stones - but there are standing stones throughout Western Europe. Wishful thinking about golden ages is a pleasant thing for some people, but this world, the one we actually live in, knows of only one pilgrimage to Santiago, that of the Church of Rome, to the remains of St James.

No one knows this for sure... Many Christian shrines are built or have borrowed and adapted to old pre- Christian sites, so why not paths too? You are totally correct that the Camino in its present form is a Catholic Pilgrimage , but I disagree that it was never important or conceivable as a 'pilgrimage to some old deity, especially as Galicia has a Celtic origin. In fact the whole Catholic Faith could be said to be a take on the old faith, adapting to the local religion of the time.). Even Voodoo uses a curious version of the Catholic saints in its lore. We just don't know. I prefer that to 'wishful thinking.'

For me the old deities appeal to my heart and I feel something that the official worldly, political faiths do not provide?.. At least for me.

Incidentally, I agree with your take on evangelism. That is very much a 'Protestant' concept.

Peace to you.
 
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I think the original post was a really nice summation of what the title said, a secular pilgrimage. Wayfarer makes a point that I'm sure a lot of people have struggled with, the recent history of the Catholic church as an entity has a lot of failings. I know I've had similar thoughts. I'm sure a lot of secular people may also be worried in how they can reconcile a very Catholic activity with their own personal goals. Wayfarer's post sounded, to me, an explanation of his concerns and how he dealt with it on the Camino. It never read as an attack on Catholicism nor low humour. It showed a very inclusive view of the walk and it's a shame the rest of the thread couldn't have gone the same way. A very brave post I thought, it shows that the Camino can just be a very good walk without pressure to experience something metaphysical.
 
dougfitz, I don't think anyone assumes they speak for all members, do they ? You seem to be setting yourself up as Censor. Good luck if that's what you want. I wasn't aware that what was posted here had to pass a public interest test. While most seek not to offend others, there is no right not to be offended. Similarly , the manner in which things are written is a matter for the writer.
1. the post from David used language that expressed a general judgement, not a personal one. So there are forms of words that clearly carry the assumption they represent our collective opinion. I merely rejected the idea that I held the same opinion.
  • I note you were more careful in your own choice of words in an earlier post to ensure that it was clear you were expressing a personal view. Not everyone does the same.

2. I fail to see how engaging in the discussion is an act of censorship. However, you might remember that there was a clear public interest test in the old forum rule that Posts about your personal political or religious beliefs are not allowed. It required a not unreasonable level of self censorship to leave what are private matters at the door, so the speak. If forum members choose to post nonetheless, they can equally expect to be challenged about any personal political or religious beliefs they write about.

3. If a member chooses language that is offensive, it seems to me that those who find it so have a right to say so.

It would appear to me that in that context, you want to censor me from expressing my view that the Catholic Church and its rituals was ridiculed unnecessarily in the original post.
 
I think the original post was a really nice summation of what the title said, a secular pilgrimage. Wayfarer makes a point that I'm sure a lot of people have struggled with, the recent history of the Catholic church as an entity has a lot of failings. I know I've had similar thoughts. I'm sure a lot of secular people may also be worried in how they can reconcile a very Catholic activity with their own personal goals. Wayfarer's post sounded, to me, an explanation of his concerns and how he dealt with it on the Camino. It never read as an attack on Catholicism nor low humour. It showed a very inclusive view of the walk and it's a shame the rest of the thread couldn't have gone the same way. A very brave post I thought, it shows that the Camino can just be a very good walk without pressure to experience something metaphysical.
StuartM, you have made a more generous interpretation of the post than I thought the words deserved. If indeed it was intended to show that the 'Camino can just be a very good walk', that message was cleverly obscured for me, and clearly for others. Pity.

Regards,
 
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DougF

1. We could dance on the pin head of Davids words forever, however my point is that he wrote it, we read it, we interpret it. You chose to interpret his words as a general judgement.
2. I agree that engaging in discussion is not censorship. I don't think that the rule you refer too necessarily represents a public interest test. I do consider it foolish to deman anyone leaves there beliefs at the door.
3. Agreed.
4. I will defend to the end your right to express your view as detailed, and would never wish to censor you. I simply believe you were wrong.
 
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