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If you do decide to ignore the closure, make sure you have had previous experience with exposure to real winter and mountain weather ... preferably worse than anything route Napoleon can offer ... so you can say with a straight face you know what you are getting into.
I was hoping he was saying if you ignore the warnings, dig in and ride out the storm, don't call for help and make people risk their lives trying to save your silly...er..hide.That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY
That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY
Define 'closed'. I sincerely doubt that means anyone found in the vicinity of the route Napoleon will be arrested or given a ticket.
It should mean that Darwin's rules apply; beyond this point there be dragons and you are on your own.
@whariwharangi you forgot the 'Really Big Book of Excuses for Blatant Stupidity'; also available as an e-book but only for PC's.
Define 'closed'. I sincerely doubt that means anyone found in the vicinity of the route Napoleon will be arrested or given a ticket. It should mean that Darwin's rules apply; beyond this point there be dragons and you are on your own.
... Nothing stupid about crossing the route napoleon even in the worst weather if you have the gear and know how to use it. ... but there is no reason for stopping someone who is prepared...
Closed means huge big signs at the bifurcation of the two roads and also further on, including the odd police car being stationed there and turning people back that attempted the Route Napoleon when it is closed for safety reasons.
It is stupid to offend against local laws. You/We are a guest in that country, it is forbidden you/we don't do it because we respect local laws. Really not rocket science! Buen Camino de la Vida, SY
Come on people let's be responsible - experienced walkers have died in winter on this route. When the police close the route no one should attempt it.
... Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. ...
I wonder if just because someone can do something, they ought to do it. I'm having trouble thinking of why even a very experienced mountaineer would think crossing the high route in the dead of winter was necessary--i.e. the benefit of doing it (rather than the low route) vs. the risk that something might happen to involve a winter rescue.
I haven't walked the low route but it sounds like there's a drivable road, which makes all the difference. I would not like to be part of the fire rescue team that took several hours of carrying a litter through snow to get the Brazilian woman down
edit: I've carried a litter only a mile in sand and on road...both relatively level, the road was easier.
- Suggested gear list for winter on route napoleon
- x 12 malamute
-sled with traces for 12
-snow knife
-snow goggles
-parka
-wind pants
-mukluks
-gloves arctic
-balaklava (wool)
-snowshoes
-muktuk for a week
-plus all the other gear one normally takes on a camino
Seriously, there is a lot of exaggeration here.
You realize that people are walking in much higher places in the Pyrenees all winter?
There are open refúgios for mountaineers on over 2.000m and there are loads of people around.
Some of my friends camp out in the Pyrenees in winter.
Don't make it seem like going to the South Pole or something like that.
Seriously, there is a lot of exaggeration here.
You realize that people are walking in much higher places in the Pyrenees all winter?
There are open refúgios for mountaineers on over 2.000m and there are loads of people around.
Some of my friends camp out in the Pyrenees in winter.
Don't make it seem like going to the South Pole or something like that.
Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.
I do absolutely agree that it is dangerous for the unprepared and under-equipped hikers.
There are many people on this forum who do not belong to this group, just as there are many peregrinos out there who don't either.
Walking over the foothills of the Pyrenees on a wide gravel track that works for jeeps is not mountaineering.
I walked up there last February and there were no signs that the trail was closed.
Then what about walking over O Cebreiro where you also get real snowstorms? Seems just as dangerous as the crossing into Spain.
It simply doesn't matter if those have the experience or not. In the big picture every year people were dying. So they closed Napoleon. We get you have the ability, this is about those that don't & the government making the decision to try to stop the problem. I don't believe the government is keeping you from going winter camping. They just closed one route. Many places in the world to do that. Including France & Spain.I do absolutely agree that it is dangerous for the unprepared and under-equipped hikers.
There are many people on this forum who do not belong to this group, just as there are many peregrinos out there who don't either.
Walking over the foothills of the Pyrenees on a wide gravel track that works for jeeps is not mountaineering.
I walked up there last February and there were no signs that the trail was closed.
Then what about walking over O Cebreiro where you also get real snowstorms? Seems just as dangerous as the crossing into Spain.
Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw.
Inexperienced pilgrim is not usually an 'experienced walker', a fact recognized and used as the rationale in the law closing the route. A position I agree with.
Perhaps even 'experienced walker' doesn't cut it. I think however, the number of instances where rescue services are called upon to rescue 'experienced walkers' does not support this position.
However, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.
Not worth the bureaucratic hassle to get permission. If your aim is to walk the camino, Route Valcarlos will suffice. We can go mountaineering on our own somewhere else where nanny hasn't found us out yet.
.
Don't get me wrong; I support the closure ... but it shouldn't be a blanket closure.
Come on people let's be responsible - experienced walkers have died in winter on this route. When the police close the route no one should attempt it.
Haven't we put that to bed yet? Sorry, but the sarcasm loses its effect when you are beating a dead horse.But, but, but . . . "it's their Camino" and aren't they doing "their Camino" "their way," which means none of us can criticize their decision? [Please note the sarcasm font]
Seal blubber for the dogs- Suggested gear list for winter on route napoleon
- x 12 malamute
-sled with traces for 12
-snow knife
-snow goggles
-parka
-wind pants
-mukluks
-gloves arctic
-balaklava (wool)
-snowshoes
-muktuk for a week
-plus all the other gear one normally takes on a camino
Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.
Thanks! That link is very helpful. We are not opposed to Valcarlos and will definitely sure on the side of caution. A bright scarf is great advice too!As posted above - its the unpredictability of spring snow storms that is so dangerous.
Forecasts can be for clear skies and 10km up the hill a blizzard rolls in. Complete white-outs are common and like Chris Phillips, you could be 50m from a road and not know it.
Even if the weather is clear, take your cell phone and remember 112 is the world wide emergency number to call. Take a 'space blanket' (one of those silver foil blankets) to keep you warm. A bright scarf or sarong that can be seen against the snow is useful. Other tips for walking in Spring here: http://amawalker.blogspot.co.za/2009/04/walking-camino-in-spring.html
Spanish and French authorities don´t ignore help petitions and as last winter will aid and rescue everybody in a trouble. But very probably, you can get a big fine, and the cost of rescue and hospital if need. As example, if an helicopter is need its costs about 3000 Euros an hour.That will not help if the person in question is caught, closed is closed. Buen Camino, SY
Hi all,
I'm planning to start from SJPP on April 2 and am hoping to take the Route Napoleon. Besides the pilgrim office in St. Jean, is the status of the trail's opening posted anywhere on the web? Has anyone hiked that route in the very beginning of April to comment on conditions during their experience?
Thanks, Sara
Hi all,
I'm planning to start from SJPP on April 2 and am hoping to take the Route Napoleon. Besides the pilgrim office in St. Jean, is the status of the trail's opening posted anywhere on the web?
Spanish and French authorities don´t ignore help petitions and as last winter will aid and rescue everybody in a trouble. But very probably, you can get a big fine, and the cost of rescue and hospital if need. As example, if an helicopter is need its costs about 3000 Euros an hour.
If you do decide to ignore the closure, make sure you have had previous experience with exposure to real winter and mountain weather ... preferably worse than anything route Napoleon can offer ... so you can say with a straight face you know what you are getting into.
Well I don't really care if it sticks in your "craw". This is Spain & they are entitled to enact any sensible laws that they deem necessary. As I read it the local provincial authorities got sick & tired of rescuing idiots! It was not a "nanny state" decision. They were fed up with foreign embassies in Madrid demanding that they take action to "save" the foreign citizen (from themselves!). So if you do not wish to abide by Spanish laws don't come. It's as simple as that!!!!Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw!
Why would you want to carry that sort of excess baggage?
Nothing stupid about crossing the route napoleon even in the worst weather if you have the gear and know how to use it. My list is tongue in cheek ... I wouldn't take muktuk for instance ... but there is no reason for stopping someone who is prepared.
The only 'stupid' that the closure is intended to forestall is people crossing the Pyrenees in December armed with the minimal gear most pilgrims already don't want to carry and with no knowledge of the conditions.
I see the attitude here all the time ... people asking if they really need a rain jacket or a jacket or a sleeping bag ... etc.
Don't get me wrong; I support the closure ... but it shouldn't be a blanket closure.
@whariwharangi: You are largely right, of course, but I think one doesn't talk about this in front of the kids ... As to the legal provisions you are looking for: they were published in the Boletín Oficial de Navarra Número 138 de 17 de julio de 2015 and the title is RESOLUCIÓN 152/2015, de 1 de julio, por la que se establecen medidas de restricción de paso por la variante este del Camino de Santiago en su primera etapa, a la entrada por Navarra, desde el 1 de noviembre, hasta el 31 de marzo. They are, obviously, in force on Spanish territory only. You find the complete text if you google for it.
Edited to add:
This part of the Camino de Santiago is closed for all pilgrims from 1 November to 31 March. No permission, no exception, nada. The danger is not only whiteouts and bad weather. The danger is that people do not know this mountain pass and what to expect in winter conditions. I've seen photos of the Brasilian/Belgian woman who had to be rescued last year and got a bill of several thousand euros. For a long time, the road looks lovely, blue sky, very little snow on the tarmac, footprints and tyre marks, a fabulous winter walk. Further up, it gets dark, it gets cold, you are tired and the snow gets deeper and deeper and very deep indeed, in particular in the stretch between the two cols ... don't go there. Book a week's holidays in the Swiss mountains, they have great and safe winter walks there.
It´s trueActually the Agencia Navarra de Emergencias as a separate body seems not to exist anymore and is now part of the Dirección General de Interior de Navarra. Contact details for those that want to apply for a special permit can be found here http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Gobie.../Estructura+Organica/?idunidadactual=10003206
If you do so, please tell us how it goes and Buen Camino, SY
Actually the Agencia Navarra de Emergencias as a separate body seems not to exist anymore and is now part of the Dirección General de Interior de Navarra. Contact details for those that want to apply for a special permit can be found here http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Gobie.../Estructura+Organica/?idunidadactual=10003206
If you do so, please tell us how it goes and Buen Camino, SY
Two weeks ago I was in Roncesvalles an I talked with some people of the area. They were ¿astonished? no, much more than astonished about how some pilgrims cross this area. People without equipent, as if they were at home, peple with heavy sun burns, with sandals, wearing light clothes. On te other side people equipped as if they were at Himalaya. Going from SJPP to Roncesvalles is not difficult, it is not climb a great mountain , but needs a minimun of training, the route is long and the slope is high but a normal trained people can afford it. Then ¿What is the problem? Problems are two, first the route, The route runs along 25 km are to climb up from 165 meters altitude in SJPP to 1400 at Lepoeder. And 5 km to go down to Roncesvalles. if you walk at a media of 4 km/hour you need five hours to reach Lepoeder. Easy, but if you are not trained with difficulty you will get that medi because you will need to stop for refreshing. In summer there in not a great problem exceptin heat. You have 14 hours to arrive. ¿But in Winter? In winter daylight could be less than 10 hours, with a media of 3 km you need about 7 hours to arrive to Lepoeder and you need at least 1 hour more to arrive to Roncesvalles. As we can see we are not plenty of time.
Thanks! That link is very helpful. We are not opposed to Valcarlos and will definitely sure on the side of caution. A bright scarf is great advice too!
Well I don't really care if it sticks in your "craw". This is Spain & they are entitled to enact any sensible laws that they deem necessary. As I read it the local provincial authorities got sick & tired of rescuing idiots! It was not a "nanny state" decision. They were fed up with foreign embassies in Madrid demanding that they take action to "save" the foreign citizen (from themselves!). So if you do not wish to abide by Spanish laws don't come. It's as simple as that!!!!
Helo all: Now September is finishing and I´d like to comment you about Route Napoleon. Last winter Spanish and French authorities closed this route due to the risks for rescue people. However some people had to be rescued in very bad conditios, a lot of accummulated snow, sometimes more than 1 meter high, very low temperatures and into the nigth. A rescue in this conditions movilizes more tha 50 people that put their life in risk to help people.
Y think that this winter this route will be closed again fom october 31 to march 31. My wish is that nobody will take this route, there is an alternative route by Valcarlos-Ibañeta, and that rescue people had not to go out to rescue in the Napoleon route.
Thank you.
I believe it is Closed from Nov to Mar inclusive, sorry. Perhaps you could change travel dates, or consider all the posts about the beauty of the Valcarlos route, the fact that Valcarlos is the original pilgrim route, etc.Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are? I am travelling to SJPP on 01/11/16 and had hoped to do the napoleons route on 02/11/16 if weather conditions permitted. Does anyone know if there is a point of contact where I can find out if the route is closed from 1st November. Thanks
Something to mention as well following up Smallest Sparrow comments is the simple clarification of numerous routes all along the Francis you will find. If you look in the guide books you will have to make choices of what route suites you. The Nepolion is just one of many, you can't divide your body into 3-4 parts to do them all at the same time. So I suggest you get use to the fact you are limited in choice. Just as the time of year you choose is a personal choice. So if you accept the Valcarlos route you are simply realizing that it is silly to get stubborn about it, as the Camino forces one to make choices every day. Those choices will determine the arrival into Santiago or Finnesterre.Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are? I am travelling to SJPP on 01/11/16 and had hoped to do the napoleons route on 02/11/16 if weather conditions permitted. Does anyone know if there is a point of contact where I can find out if the route is closed from 1st November. Thanks
Yes.Is the route closed as a matter of policy no matter what the weather conditions are?
r Finnesterre.
just to clarify for the Americans reading this, the decimal point in 12.000 Euro would be the equivalent of 12,000--correct? as in a possible cap of 12,000 Euro with the breakdown charges beneath? or is that a 12 euro fine, plus the charges beneathFine, up to 12.000€
Oh, I knew about the odd and weird English date formatjust to clarify for the Americans reading this, the decimal point in 12.000 Euro would be the equivalent of 12,000--correct?
just closing the American pilgrim loop holeOh, I knew about the odd and weird English date format, but had not noticed the "decimal point issue" ...You live and learn. Thanks, I will remember it.
Yes, it is up to 12,000, then.
The French forum "Au coeur du chemin" (of Association des Amis du Chemin de St Jacques en Pyrénées,
I believe they are the good people who deal with the "accueil" in SJPP) has published a list of fine and rescue tariffs for walkers that don't obey the Napoleon route winter interdiction. They mention a decree of Comunidad Foral de Navarra, but the link or source is not provided.
(my obviously non-official translation)
Fine, up to 12.000€
For rescue (without exceptions):
For every rescue team member: 30€
Ambulance: 65€
Jeep, truck, 30€
Ambulance helicopter 136o €
Rescue helicopter € 1400.00
http://www.aucoeurduchemin.org/spip/Actualites/ACCUEIL-TOUTE-L-ANNEE#forum46832
I will walk from SJPP to Roncesvalles on Saturday (29th October). The weather forecast seems good, does anybody know the status of the Route Napoleon?
really can't be any more clear than thatAnd this is what the sign looks like:
View attachment 30168
And here is the official announcement from the Navarra Government concerning the closure for the period 1 November 2016 until 31 March 2017:
http://www.navarra.es/home_es/Actua...1/Restrigindo+Camino+Santiago+en+Lepoeder.htm
I will walk from SJPP to Roncesvalles on Saturday (29th October). The weather forecast seems good, does anybody know the status of the Route Napoleon?
What happened?
Weather ?
How is the progress ?
Cheers
I will reiterate, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.
Perhaps the ski resort at Somport should be closed too. For the same reasons.
I finished my short Camino on Saturday in Burgos as planned, the weather was great for most part of the week but last 2 days were horrible, I walked the last 15km under pouring rain . I did the route Napoleon on the 29th October and it was amazing. I am so glad that they close the route Napoleon during the winter, there are some many pilgrims that are completely unprepared.
Yeah ... lets be responsible. Except this is the nanny state looking after us instead of us taking responsibility for ourselves. I think it is this what sticks in my craw.
Inexperienced pilgrim is not usually an 'experienced walker', a fact recognized and used as the rationale in the law closing the route. A position I agree with.
Perhaps even 'experienced walker' doesn't cut it. I think however, the number of instances where rescue services are called upon to rescue 'experienced walkers' does not support this position.
However, for an experienced mountaineer, ... its a cake walk.
Not worth the bureaucratic hassle to get permission. If your aim is to walk the camino, Route Valcarlos will suffice. We can go mountaineering on our own somewhere else where nanny hasn't found us out yet.
But there's a tarmac alternative up both sides to Somport, whereas the forbidden route is the tunnel. The two routes are completely different.
You're comparing apples and oranges -- and to describe a mountain path through relative wilderness in winter as a "cake walk" is quite irresponsible IMO.
I live in a NANNY state here in Australia.
However I am also disheartened to read about a Pilgrim dying within the last few days crossing the pass.
I think we must be more sensitive about this and forget how experienced us "fireman" can be.
I wouldn't even describe it as 'relative wilderness'. Its a cake walk ... even in winter. The only irresponsible thing is to walk on it without previous mountain experience.
I'm not a fireman.
Never said you were a fireman,
Said the word US , not you.
Can i ask when you walked the Napoleon route ? , y
Your expertise on these matters whilst often quoted do not show your experience about same.
I notice Jabba did this 22 areas ago and as soon as he mentioned the GR20 i realised he was aware of the facts about a daily walk in the winter months.
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