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I am not so sure. Rebekah's book indicates there there was some connection with Castrojeriz, I think. Maybe she will comment.San Antón will have been independent of Castrojériz.
As to the dating discrepancies, the foundation of the Abbey, the age of the remains, and the dating of one particular element can of course be divergent from each other.
A connection is one thing, but Mediaeval Administrative independence is another.I am not so sure. Rebekah's book indicates there there was some connection with Castrojeriz, I think. Maybe she will comment.
Yes, I am sure you know more about this. I will see if I can find the little booklet if she doesn't respond. I have moved a couple of times since then, so I am going to have to look for it.A connection is one thing, but Mediaeval Administrative independence is another.
An Abbot would be, and often still is even today, entirely independent of his local Bishop. A major Abbot is in fact of ecclesial rank equal to that of a Bishop.
An Abbot would be, and often still is even today, entirely independent of his local Bishop. A major Abbot is in fact of ecclesial rank equal to that of a Bishop.
If nobody knows to the nearest year when the convent building was begun or when it was finished, then 14th century or 15th century will have to do. I am curious because the signage has changed. The date given for most constructions that take a long time is the date they were finished. If this is the case with the convent of San Antón, then the ruins presumably date from the 15th century if construction began in the 14th century and finished in the 15th. Does the booklet have more about the dates of construction than "Monasterio San Anton de Castrojeriz was founded 900 years ago"?The dates, as you can see, are not precise. The ruins themselves are not precise. The site of the current ruins was (far as we know) originally a hunting lodge owned by a king. He donated it to the Order of San Anton Abad, a group of French monks who evolved into healers. They specialized in "St. Anthony's fire," aka "ergotism," whose symptoms include hallucinations, a loss of circulation, and blackened limbs. The order had monastery/hospitals throughout Spain and Europe, this particular one was the headquarters in Spain. It sat along the Camino trail, and also offered hospitality to pilgrims, too. The buildings went through several phases of construction, demolition, and varied uses as the order grew in power and then went into decline. It was finally shut down entirely when the Spanish government disentailed monasteries in the early 19th century. It was sold into private hands, its goods scattered around other local churches. For many years it was a barnyard.
The ruins you see today are what remains of the 14th and 15th century chapel. The albergue is built into what was the secular entryway; the monks and their staff and families lived in the monastery buildings where the farmhouse and barns stand now.
If you want the gory details send me an IM and I will get a booklet to you.
I was being a bit sarcastic in asking how many churches were dedicated to San Juan Bautista. If you didn't know that there was a church dedicated to him in Castrojeriz, you would read that sign and wonder why they didn't name the town where the church was.@Bert45, in a moment of idle curiosity I searched Open Street Maps for 'San Juan Bautista Spain'. I couldn't filter churches, but counted those returns labelled as a place of worship. church building or the like. I didn't check for duplicates. 49.
You can try this search as a starter: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=San Juan Bautista spain#map=6/39.942/-3.267
@Bert45, I realised you were employing a rhetorical device and not seriously seeking an answer, but I was curious nonetheless.I was being a bit sarcastic in asking how many churches were dedicated to San Juan Bautista. If you didn't know that there was a church dedicated to him in Castrojeriz, you would read that sign and wonder why they didn't name the town where the church was.
This is a period of over 870 years, almost a millennium. I think it should be understood that there may have been many versions of buildings on the San Anton site over that period. For a simple instance, the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela in not the original building constructed on the site in Santiago. It was not unusual for such important building to be destroyed, burned or pillaged over the centauries I don't imagine that anyone is trying to be frivolous here and these public information signs are really just an indicator of the history of change. We can "dig" deeper elsewhere if we wish to pursue the detailed history, if indeed it is available.The information board at the Ruins of San Antón states that the convent was founded in 1146 under the patronage of King Alfonso VII. The same sign says that the ruins are 14th century, while a large sign nearby used to say that they are 15th century [https://medium.com/a-walking-miracle/day-13-2-b82e5492a60 posted Dec 2020] A new large sign says they are 14th century (I was there in October this year). It seems odd to me that they can date the foundation to a precise year (1146), but provide no date for the building of the convent of which we now see the ruins – sometime in the 14th century – oops, sorry 15th century. Do you know when the convent was built, more or less?
The sign goes on to say that "The baroque altarpiece is preserved in the church of San Juan Bautista." Do you know how many churches in Spain are dedicated to San Juan Bautista? A lot, I bet. OK , it's probably the church of San Juan Bautista in Castrojeriz, but how much would it have cost to add the name of the town?
Does anyone know how it became a ruin?This is a period of over 870 years, almost a millennium. I think it should be understood that there may have been many versions of buildings on the San Anton site over that period. For a simple instance, the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela in not the original building constructed on the site in Santiago. It was not unusual for such important building to be destroyed, burned or pillaged over the centauries I don't imagine that anyone is trying to be frivolous here and these public information signs are really just an indicator of the history of change. We can "dig" deeper elsewhere if we wish to pursue the detailed history, if indeed it is available.
That's OK, Rebekah.It became a ruin because nobody did any maintenance there for about 175 years, and the neighbors carted away the stones and timbers to build other things.
Bert45: I am sorry I can't be more precise on the foundation dates. I have all my historical source info in a drawer someplace, but somehow I am not motivated to go digging for it. It will have to remain another Camino Mystery.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but … There is likely to be records of the building and patronage of a church. But if it is abandoned and begins to fall apart, perhaps no one writes down anywhere, "the old church collapsed today." Plus the deterioration will take place over a long period of time.The information board at the Ruins of San Antón states that the convent was founded in 1146 under the patronage of King Alfonso VII. The same sign says that the ruins are 14th century, while a large sign nearby used to say that they are 15th century [https://medium.com/a-walking-miracle/day-13-2-b82e5492a60 posted Dec 2020] A new large sign says they are 14th century (I was there in October this year). It seems odd to me that they can date the foundation to a precise year (1146), but provide no date for the building of the convent of which we now see the ruins – sometime in the 14th century – oops, sorry 15th century.
She does. Well, she did in the spring. It's a great booklet. You can track her down on the forum. I think the money she raises from booklet sales go to one of her many charitable endeavours.My husband bought me a little booklet by @Rebekah Scott on San Anton a few years ago. Great little booklet. Don't know if she has any left? You can scroll down and see it here:
A pilgrim wrote to me he wouldn't consider staying there. Is this true? :The dates, as you can see, are not precise. The ruins themselves are not precise. The site of the current ruins was (far as we know) originally a hunting lodge owned by a king. He donated it to the Order of San Anton Abad, a group of French monks who evolved into healers. They specialized in "St. Anthony's fire," aka "ergotism," whose symptoms include hallucinations, a loss of circulation, and blackened limbs. The order had monastery/hospitals throughout Spain and Europe, this particular one was the headquarters in Spain. It sat along the Camino trail, and also offered hospitality to pilgrims, too. The buildings went through several phases of construction, demolition, and varied uses as the order grew in power and then went into decline. It was finally shut down entirely when the Spanish government disentailed monasteries in the early 19th century. It was sold into private hands, its goods scattered around other local churches. For many years it was a barnyard.
The ruins you see today are what remains of the 14th and 15th century chapel. The albergue is built into what was the secular entryway; the monks and their staff and families lived in the monastery buildings where the farmhouse and barns stand now.
If you want the gory details send me an IM and I will get a booklet to you.
You should ask over on this thread about Camino myths:A pilgrim wrote to me he wouldn't consider staying there. Is this true? :
"The horrors for me was the rudimentary amputation of victims hands suffering from St Anton Fire.
My understanding is that some infected pilgrims were invited, by priests/monks to insert their diseased hands into niches in the walls of the Convento whereupon others on the other side would grab the hands and cut them off.
Now I know this was the Middle Ages and they were not known for their bedside manner, but….I could not consider staying there."
You would think if that had really been the case word would have gotten round pretty quickly and it would no longer have been so easy to convince pilgrims to stick their hands in the niches.A pilgrim wrote to me he wouldn't consider staying there. Is this true? :
"The horrors for me was the rudimentary amputation of victims hands suffering from St Anton Fire.
My understanding is that some infected pilgrims were invited, by priests/monks to insert their diseased hands into niches in the walls of the Convento whereupon others on the other side would grab the hands and cut them off.
Now I know this was the Middle Ages and they were not known for their bedside manner, but….I could not consider staying there."
I don't like information like that "900 years ago". It's fairly obviously a number correct to the nearest 100 years. If it was founded exactly 900 years ago, that will change with every year that passes since it was written. If it was founded in 1146, that will be 900 years ago in 23 years (written in 2023). If the exact date is not known, say so. But limits can be given – after 1120, but before 1180, for instance.Here's the booklet description from her website:
"Monasterio San Anton de Castrojeriz was founded 900 years ago as a fortress for warrior monks reconquering Spain and protecting pilgrims on the Camino de Santiago trail. Its story includes a half-mad saint, a gruesome disease, a jeweled arm with healing powers, and fund-raising pigs."
OK, sorry, I was quoting from the book description. Guess you can talk to @Rebekah Scott as they may be her words...I don't like information like that "900 years ago". It's fairly obviously a number correct to the nearest 100 years. If it was founded exactly 900 years ago, that will change with every year that passes since it was written. If it was founded in 1146, that will be 900 years ago in 23 years (written in 2023). If the exact date is not known, say so. But limits can be given – after 1120, but before 1180, for instance.
This reminds me of a story I read where the author recounted a visit to a museum where a docent told of a fossil that was 9,000,014 years old (or a similar ancient number). When asked how the age could be so accurate the docent replied that he was told it was nine million years old when he started working there fourteen years previously.I don't like information like that "900 years ago". It's fairly obviously a number correct to the nearest 100 years. If it was founded exactly 900 years ago, that will change with every year that passes since it was written. If it was founded in 1146, that will be 900 years ago in 23 years (written in 2023). If the exact date is not known, say so. But limits can be given – after 1120, but before 1180, for instance.
Hi Rebekah, if you are a specialist of San Anton, could you tell us about the "Tau", the San Anton cross ?I am a historian, I co-wrote the "San Anton: a Little History" with Robert Mullen, another camino historian. It is the only document of its kind in English.
Hi Rebekah, if you are a specialist of San Anton, could you tell us about the "Tau", the San Anton cross ?
Last spring, with a friend of mine, we discover the ruins of the monastery before Castrojeriz, and there she gives me a wooden tau. I like very much this cross but nowadays it seems to be related more with San Francisco than to San Antonio.
I know that San Francisco used it in its signature, but I would like to know the circumstances under which San Antonio adopted it.
More Templars? Puh-leeze. The original San Anton was built on the site of a royal hunting lodge. There are no Templars anywhere in the historic record, despite the best efforts of many to squeeze them in there.I would say this commandery at Castrojeiz was completed in the late 1300s, the mother house was in Paris. San Anton Castrojeriz commandery was probablty built on a former Templar commandery site.
There was Hainaut knightly aristocratic order of St Anthony started between 1352 and 1382 maybe by Duke Albert of Bavaria, their house was at ( Chapelle Saint -Antoine en-Barbefosse Mons Belgium) they were allowed to eventually join the mother house in Paris after agreeing to share their income with them.
Their insignia was a Tau cross pendant with a bell and a collar in a form of a hermits girdle.
The Rose window at San Anton Castrojeriz looks like the Tau crosses are surmounted by hermits girdles?
Commanderies générales de l'ordre des hospitaliers de Saint Antoine
Welcome back, @me123. I see from your previous messages that you have an interest in the tau cross.I would say this commandery at Castrojeiz was completed in the late 1300s, the mother house was in Paris. San Anton Castrojeriz commandery was probablty built on a former Templar commandery site. There was Hainaut knightly aristocratic order of St Anthony started between 1352 and 1382 maybe by Duke Albert of Bavaria, their house was at ( Chapelle Saint -Antoine en-Barbefosse Mons Belgium) they were allowed to eventually join the mother house in Paris after agreeing to share their income with them.
I found a Wikipedia article in French about this obscure order. As already mentioned, this order has nothing whatsoever to do with the Antonines and San Antón near Castrojeriz in Spain: Ordre de Saint-Antoine-en-Barbefosse. The first line says: Ne doit pas être confondu avec Ordre hospitalier de Saint-Antoine.there is not much online information about the first one in English
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