Tim O'Donoghue
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- Frances
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I carried a trash bag and picked up as I walked
You hit that nail square on the head.I agree 100%, but as I have said on here before, I highly doubt that any of this forum's members, or even non-forum members who come on here to look at information, are responsible for littering and graffiti defacing of property along the Camino.
I suspect the culprits are probably too superficial and unintelligent to see the Camino as anything more than an opportunity to act the fool and get drunk or high.
why not just text, call or email?since on at least one thread someone mentioned she'd been leaving notes written on rocks all the way to Santiago, hoping to re-connect with someone she'd met earlier on the road, it proves that at least one, and perhaps more, walkers who may trash the road do visit here...
it was one of the recent 'in search of pilgrim posts'--apparently didn't get their email or phone number...why not just text, call or email?
my marathon coach's version of that is "can't fix stupid"...but hope springs eternal that once heard repeatedly, and sometimes with pointed emphasis, some will realize that while their brain circuitry doesn't tell them it's wrong, they will be socially punished for it...like training a dog, they lack the concept of wrong, but they do know what brings praise and what earns a different reaction.A few us are assembling in Moratinos later this month to clean the path through Palencia but our efforts are merely a well intentioned drop in the bucket. Granted any effort is better than nothing but I have to agree with Tincatinker that there is no amount of pleading that will keep the Camino clean.
Recently we sealed the asphalt of my condominium building. No amount of signage kept a few negligent owners from walking across the fresh tar and leaving footprints on the tile in our foyer. There is no excuse for "stupid."
You are being very generous in this assessment. Unfortunately, this thread doesn't offer anything that hasn't already been said, some as recently as in the past few weeks. I defer to @Tincatinker's interpretation that there is value in keeping this topic 'alive', but I do wonder when someone who doesn't appear to have bothered to contribute to the existing discussions on this is suddenly shouting 'save the camino' as if litter is some sort of existential threat.what I like about this thread is it was not necessarily started as a rant, it was posed as what can we do to help fix this (and as I said above, clearly some people who contribute to graffiti and trash do actually read this forum, so also it is educational to them).
You are definately my kind if people! Thanks for what you do. I do the same everywhere I walk here locally.I carried a trash bag and picked up as I walked the tip of my walking stick helped.
I found that the best description of a "defacing" the walls etc. is the most correct by far until now!!!...scribbling your nonsense on something you don't own...
I wonder if, the next time someone asks for a packing list of things to take on the camino, those who provide a list might include, "a few small plastic bags for carrying your trash with you to the next garbage receptacle." Maybe if we make it part of the conversation right from the get-go people will be awakened to the idea that the veterans from whom they seek advice do this and so should they. Put it at the top of the list. And again at the bottom.Doug, I kind of agree with you and clicked the 'like' button. (Like what we're all s'pposed to do today to save articulating an argument.) But. However. Alternatively. Most of the litter, poo and toilet paper threads drop down the page rankings fairly quickly. The wrinkly old vets have seen it all before, possibly stepped in it, and are tired of re-iterating a vary basic concept. The 'newbies' are usually focussed just on getting 'there' in a reasonable state of pilgrim-hood and are more worried about pack-weight, beds, bedbugs and being there. Periodically we have a new thread where a 'pilgrim', who would never shit on someone else's door-step, discovers that the socially incontinent are rife amongst us and, they post their outrage here.
Even one 'new' thread a day expressing the rage and despair of those newly confronted by the desecrations is fine by me. It keeps the topic on the 'front page' - the part of the forum that is possibly as far as most visitors venture. It keeps those simple suggestions like ' carry a trash bag'; 'bag out your tissues'; ' if you can carry a water bottle when it is full you can carry it when it is empty', in the public eye.
Don't despair old friend. If we only affect one pilgrim a day then trickle down says they'll affect another every day. If seemingly endless repetition didn't have the desired impact then commercial television would just be a concept and the advertising industry wouldn't exist
And I keep banging the drum - take a small cotton hanky inside a ziplock plastic bag instead of leaving a trail of tissues or toilet paper along the track. Wash it and reuse it.
Okay, I'm going to say it. If women don't want to go with @Kanga's suggestion, use tissue / Kleenex instead of toilet paper. Damp tissue / Kleenex is simple enough to handle and pack out. Wet toilet paper is revolting. But whatever you use, pack it out !!!Yes, because as I began complaining many years ago, the toilet paper is mostly left by women, sadly.
No, I don't think culture or language barrier has anything to do with it, as the idiots that leave trash, defecate on or graffiti up the Camino path probably come from a variety of countries. Also, the amount of pilgrims or prospective pilgrims that visits this forum is a very tiny percentage of the pilgrims that walk the Camino every year.Perhaps we should post specific instructions such as " Carry a few small snack size ziplock bags for toilet paper that you may have used along the way." The hip belt pocket of my back was too small for my phone but just the right size for my stash of small ziploc bags and tissue.
Just wondering, do you think that some of the problem is cultural (and language in that they are not reading these posts), given that there are pilgrims from many different parts of the world? In the USA at least, "leave no trace" hiking and camping has become much better known and my experience in Europe was that it was much cleaner than the USA.
ummm, yeah dude. Really not an appropriate analogy.I found that the best description of a "defacing" the walls etc. is the most correct by far until now!!!
But of course, ... I've been part of the suburban culture from early 80's (punk) and I like to think that I'm still somehow part of it. Not really thoughBut signing yourself (as a dog actually) on a wall just isn't a graffiti! Whereas there could be "real" graffiti with strong social or political meaning made/painted on "something you don't own" (did USA own Vietnam to drop bombs over there? - sorry if the comparison is too harsh..). There you have artists/activists that uses all the means to tell "the truth", "their truth", etc. You believe or you don't believe it doesn't matter because (also) they usually don't have any other significant means of expresing themselves.
And then Banksy's murals (oh, you see - "murals", wow!!! like in renaissance Italy and Spain expression, top shit art!!!) are even sold for milions of "whatever". What are those "real" graffiti in all of the cities in this world? Just a vandalism? Or maybe voice of the unheard? A piece of art we can't recognize in given moment???
Just some food for thoughts althought way off-topic, I guess
I highly doubt that any of this forum's members, or even non-forum members who come on here to look at information, are responsible for littering and graffiti defacing of property along the Camino.
I suspect the culprits are probably too superficial and unintelligent to see the Camino as anything more than an opportunity to act the fool and get drunk or high.
Mmmmhhhh... I think there could be surprises... I really wouldn't bet my bottom € cent on this one (even if I just picked up and found it doesn't have Santiago's cathedral on it!)You hit that nail square on the head.
I guess the point that I was trying to make, and this may come as a surprise to some (I sure hope not, though), but the massively, overwhelming majority of pilgrims who walk the various routes of the Camino every year are not members of this forum, do not read this forum and don't even know this forum exists. I didn't learn of this forum until several months after I walked the CF the first time.Mmmmhhhh... I think there could be surprises... I really wouldn't bet my bottom € cent on this one (even if I just picked up and found it doesn't have Santiago's cathedral on it!)
No one's littering the Camino, but there are tons of litters along it... Another Camino's mysterious paradox
And, once again, my thoughts to Serge, living on the Camino, who dedicates himself to clean up pilgrims' trash. And who's picking up outrageous amounts of it before he carries it to the next garbage. Thank you Serge!
Also, to Un paso limpio, a "leave no trace" on the Camino. And the Great Camino Cleanup. And to the humanure facilities along stretches on the Le Puy route. And... And... And...
Thanks to them all!
But neither should we add to it.Good points @CaptBuddy . We Camino pilgrims are entitled to no more and no less freedom from garbage than the rest of humanity.
Of course not! I've said several times that we should all contribute to improving the situation on a daily basis, wherever we are.But neither should we add to it.
How can I help? If garbage was collected are there resources to pick up those bags? I wouldn't expect that they would be carried 20-30Km. I noted many John Deere tractors throughout Spain. They make small 4-wheel drive vehicles and donate to not for profit organizations (I believe APOC could qualify). I personally would donate for the expense of this idea or others. Contact Me........... Ultreya......... Willy/Utah/USA
Yes, because as I began complaining many years ago, the toilet paper is mostly left by women, sadly.
I went to johndeere.com saw the different models, saw their statement on donation qualifications and they have a map where Spanish distributors are marked. I didn't follow it further because I don't represent a not for profit........ Ultreya......... Willy/Utah/USACan you tell me who to contact at John Deere re: the 4-wheel drive thing? We are experimenting this year on the Camino with a litter wagon, but if I had 4wd I could expand into other seasons...
Reb
DitchPig in Chief
Can you tell me who to contact at John Deere re: the 4-wheel drive thing? We are experimenting this year on the Camino with a litter wagon, but if I had 4wd I could expand into other seasons...
Reb
DitchPig in Chief
Got you (had before)I guess the point that I was trying to make, and this may come as a surprise to some (I sure hope not, though), but the massively, overwhelming majority of pilgrims who walk the various routes of the Camino every year are not members of this forum, do not read this forum and don't even know this forum exists. I didn't learn of this forum until several months after I walked the CF the first time.
I just believe that this forum's members in all probability tend to be a bit more in touch with the right way and the wrong way to act while walking the Camino. I could be wrong, but it just seems that way.
The issue is NOT the biodegradability of wipes, but the fact that they do not disintegrate as quickly as paper when they enter the sewerage system. They remain intact and have to be filtered out of the sewerage stream and taken to landfill, together with dental floss, cotton buds and anything else that isn't one of the three Ps - pee, poo and paper.A word to the wise, those diaper wipes for adults a loo paper company decided we need a few years ago DO NOT degrade well at all. In fact they are a big problem for city sewage systems, so let's not suggest those at all, even if we mean to suggest them as something that gets thrown out at the end of the day.
And I keep banging the drum - take a small cotton hanky inside a ziplock plastic bag instead of leaving a trail of tissues or toilet paper along the track. Wash it and reuse it.
Urine should be sterile. Probably no worse than wearing the same panties all day! Personally, I just use pantiliners and drip-dry.That sounds like a recipe for a bacterial infection.
I think that has recently been shown to be a myth. See, for example, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/turns-out-urine-isnt-actually-sterile-180954809/.Urine should be sterile.
Thanks for that link. I knew it wasn't quite true in real life, which is why I said "should", so I'm glad to read about the lab testing methods.I think that has recently been shown to be a myth. See, for example, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/turns-out-urine-isnt-actually-sterile-180954809/.
This is particularly bad on the Frances route and the lottery was shocking when I joined it in Arzua. The Northern Route ia litter free. I know the volume of pilgrims is less but is some people see litter and Loo paper etc they feel more inclined to do the same.. . . . . from the peregrinos. The Camino is many things to many people, including a sacred path, historic pilgrimage, and wonderful experience. The defacing of markers, signs, and monuments, and the trash, especially tissue, that litters the way disrespects this. Its time that pereginos past, present, and future take a stand to protect the integrity of the camino. Please follow the principles of Leave No Trace (e.g., pack out what you pack in). Those that are associated with camino organizations, please reach out to your constituency to educate them/us. Perhaps its time to create a modern Knights Templar whose mission is to protect the Camino? Ideas?
This is the best. idea. Research shows that establishing a positive social norm is the best way to change behavior. The more litter [ep[;e see, the more likely to litter themselves. Conversely, if other pilgrims see you picking up trash, they are less likely to litter, and more likely to pick up litter themselves.I carried a trash bag and picked up as I walked the tip of my walking stick helped.
I carried a trash bag and picked up as I walked the tip of my walking stick helped.
True confession time. A couple of years ago someone posted a polite request for women, asking them to pick up their toilet paper, bag it, carry it and and toss it in a garbage can after their side trip to the bushes. I tucked that information away for my trip and used the suggested method. It was easy, no fuss, no mess. I still pass on this tip to other walkers.This is the best. idea. Research shows that establishing a positive social norm is the best way to change behavior. The more litter [ep[;e see, the more likely to litter themselves. Conversely, if other pilgrims see you picking up trash, they are less likely to litter, and more likely to pick up litter themselves.
Maybe encourage communities to provide garbage receptacles and toilets?. . . . . from the peregrinos. The Camino is many things to many people, including a sacred path, historic pilgrimage, and wonderful experience. The defacing of markers, signs, and monuments, and the trash, especially tissue, that litters the way disrespects this. Its time that pereginos past, present, and future take a stand to protect the integrity of the camino. Please follow the principles of Leave No Trace (e.g., pack out what you pack in). Those that are associated with camino organizations, please reach out to your constituency to educate them/us. Perhaps its time to create a modern Knights Templar whose mission is to protect the Camino? Ideas?
picking up a bit of litter hardly constitutes road side clearance but might make a differance!I find it a bit odd (and disconcerting) when people suddenly discover that litterers exist, on the Camino no less, and they post a strongly-worded lecture or rant at this Camino fan club!
However, @Tincatinker makes some good points about keeping the topic current.
I support picking up litter occasionally wherever you walk, but I don't let it make me angry, and I draw the line at roadside cleanup while I am on a pilgrimage.
Perhaps we should post specific instructions such as " Carry a few small snack size ziplock bags for toilet paper that you may have used along the way." The hip belt pocket of my back was too small for my phone but just the right size for my stash of small ziploc bags and tissue.
Just wondering, do you think that some of the problem is cultural (and language in that they are not reading these posts), given that there are pilgrims from many different parts of the world? In the USA at least, "leave no trace" hiking and camping has become much better known and my experience in Europe was that it was much cleaner than the USA.
No, I don't think culture or language barrier has anything to do with it, as the idiots that leave trash, defecate on or graffiti up the Camino path probably come from a variety of countries. Also, the amount of pilgrims or prospective pilgrims that visits this forum is a very tiny percentage of the pilgrims that walk the Camino every year.
No, it's just plain selfish, childish, rude behavior which knows no cultural or language boundaries. One shouldn't have to be told it's wrong to throw trash all over the ground, or deface someone else's property. Especially if one is an adult.
I draw the line at roadside cleanup while I am on a pilgrimage.
I support and participate in litter pickup on walking paths, at home and on the Camino. My comment about "road side cleanup" related to another post as well as my own experience. Occasionally when the Camino has a stretch along a major road, one can see a lot of garbage that has almost certainly been tossed from cars. I have allowed myself to pass that garbage without guilt. Cleaning up highways in Spain would have to be a separate project, one that cannot reasonably be combined with my personal pilgrimage! I certainly do pick up litter, just not along highways!picking up a bit of litter hardly constitutes road side clearance but might make a differance!
It seems that it will be left to us, the people who live on the Camino to constantly try and clear up the mess on OUR doorstep. I have recently contacted the makers of Sharpies and now have a formula that will take off the Graffiti from the markers. Its a mixture of Disolvant and thick bleach so our section of the Camino will be kept clean and graffiti clean. Maybe if I could visit the homes of some of the mindless ones and scribble all over their front door. Pointless but would be cathartic for me to relieve the frustration of the last few years of constant cleaning up after the mindless few.I find it a bit odd (and disconcerting) when people suddenly discover that litterers exist, on the Camino no less, and they post a strongly-worded lecture or rant at this Camino fan club!
However, @Tincatinker makes some good points about keeping the topic current.
I support picking up litter occasionally wherever you walk, but I don't let it make me angry, and I draw the line at roadside cleanup while I am on a pilgrimage.
I remember one stretch had garbage bins every km or so and someone had written a line from John Lennon's Imagine on each one progressively through the song and the Camino. It was in Galacia I think. I love that song and walked along for quite awhile with it in my head. I still remember the forest and track whenever I hear Lennon or see a bin, which is quite often, fortunately really. Buen Camino
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