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- Time of past OR future Camino
- Frances 2012
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Would they rather have migrants or pilgrims? ... this post particularly concerns me because when I go on my Camino next year, I might be one of those "smelly pilgrims" ... I'm on a high protein diet (pre diabetic and watching my carbohydrate intake) ... on the many sedate couch potato DVD watching days, soap here at home doesn't always bubble (I have to soap and rinse twice) ... I must have running hot water (I'm very spoiled) ... I don't think I'll be a good commercial pilgrim as I don't plan on spending oddles of money (I'm wary of "tourist traps"). Went backpacking 30 years ago in Malaga, there were more than a few back then and I seem to have encountered them all ... those tourist traps ruined the good memories (I was a very angry, bitter and cheap person back then - I'm less angry and bitter today, but still very cheap).They are also protesting in other main towns around Spain against the growing number of tourists .
Wish you well , Peter .
Whenever times are bad, there is scapegoating. And the vulnerable "other" is always a cheap, easy target....there is currently a background or general resentment in Spain, especially amongst young people that feel that they are denied the chances their parents had.
Welcome to the "New World Order" ... where politicians tax the heck out of the middle class but still wants everybody poor and on welfare ... I firmly believe that pilgrims are "envied" (lacking a better word) because pilgrims have the "luxury of time" ... locals perhaps don't realize the personal losses or voids in each true pilgrim's soul ... wealth is relative ... if this pilgrimage were in Switzerland, then the locals wouldn't be thinking that ...Interesting - funny of course - good joke - but more of a diverted response to the appallingly high unemployment and terrible economy I think .... no matter how simply we pilgrims travel we must look so rich to the unemployed, especially the young ones - that we are there at all is proof of wealth.
mind you, their argument is faulty .. at one point pilgrims are accused of pushing up prices but at another point the complaint is that pilgrims eat as cheaply as possible so miss all the wonderful food and wine - so if they aren't buying it why would the prices go up? Faulty logic there. They also seem to believe that refugios in Logrono are all free!
The 'gentrification' of poor areas has been going on for decades .... prices become too high and people with money to buy move into the poorer areas and prices there go up - then young residents cannot afford to live there - sad, but is how the world is, I can't see how one can change it - do you?
I don't think the profits from Pilgrim Dollars are too much ... I know it's a lot of work and maybe today's youngsters are disenchanted with less than glamorous small town work that competes with the big city white collar jobs they desire ...Whenever times are bad, there is scapegoating. And the vulnerable "other" is always a cheap, easy target.
In this case it's a shame, because the pilgrim dollar feeds the tourism industry - an industry that creates jobs and serves as an economic engine.
this wouldn't be viewed too well in the United States ... segregation doesn't hold much of an appeal ... also, I would fail any Catholic Catechism question brought forth ... except maybe the seven deadly or mortal sins? Sloth is the main thing I'm guilty of ... it'll probably take me a year of walking to finish the Camino ...Those three lads could set up two routes that separate at the entrance to Logroño .. one going through and one going round, with a barrier at that point - each pilgrim would be asked a Catholic catechism question and if they answered it correctly would be allowed in on the Catholic Camino into Logrono and if they failed it would be sent along the new Heathen Camino that goes round it - oh, and those going through would have to swim through a medicated sheep bath and also sign a document stating that they wouldn't spend more than three Euros whilst in the city to keep prices down -
That should sort the 'problem' I think
Sounds like real estate in Vancouver, Canada ... unsure about the roads being packed with cars over there.Well, honestly I feel like protesting in Oregon.
The freeways are packed, the prices are going crazy, and the charm of the city is being ruined by people with boatloads of money coming in and running out the locals.
There, I vented.
Well, honestly I feel like protesting in Oregon.
The freeways are packed, the prices are going crazy, and the charm of the city is being ruined by people with boatloads of money coming in and running out the locals.
There, I vented.
Last time I checked, Logrono was a rather wealthy city as it is the heart of the Spanish wine industry. I don't think the 20€ a day some let's say 1ook people bring a year makes any difference in this city's financial health. Surely pilgrims aren't the ones keeping some 50 taperias alive and well in that city....maybe today's youngsters are disenchanted with less than glamorous small town work that competes with the big city white collar jobs they desire ...
How much of that 20 Euros per day of the 100K people per year actually go into each of the three protester's pockets? ... maybe that's they they're protesting? ... maybe they're not part of the pie, or they want a bigger slice? or maybe they just want to ruin things for others?Last time I checked, Logrono was a rather wealthy city as it is the heart of the Spanish wine industry. I don't think the 20€ a day some let's say 1ook people bring a year makes any difference in this city's financial health. Surely pilgrims aren't the ones keeping some 50 taperias alive and well in that city.
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/regional-innovation-monitor/base-profile/la-rioja
http://www.itrainsinspain.com/introducing-la-rioja/guide-logrono/
Yup, I was just being cynical / sarcastic ... about the medicated sheep bath and the delousing pen ... but I was serious about the washroom/bathroom ... it's a prime concern for me as I tend to eat a lot when on a hike (I prefer to eat a lot during hikes) ... I was last in Spain 30 years ago, am hoping the food is just as great today as it was back in the mid-late 80s ...This did makes me smile... I sincerely hope that it was meant in good humour. "Menos peregrinos, mas barato el vino...". It seems like somebody has too much time on their hands...
35M€ is a drop in the bucket for such a large economy. Local uni here is putting up 3 new buildings for a total of 500MC$, or some 10 times what you estimate the Camino beings to Spain. 10 years of pilgrims for 3 buildings.Whilst some sections of the tourist industry can be annoying, I wonder what the good burghers of Logrono and other such places would do if the estimated Euro 35 million (my back of the envelope one) contributed to their economy disappeared??y!
Most likely frustrated ... just like the protesters here in the U.S. ... question is, why are they frustrated? My family used to work in the tourist industry ... we were grateful for the daily tourists (we loved the work) ... we were ashamed of their choice of female companions though ... we were disturbed when our clients got scammed ... we were sad when the tourists dried up ...Just a few frustrated people sounding off. It's been blown way out of proportion. I have seen no indication of this happening anywhere outside Logrono, btw.
Couldn't see this posted elsewhere on the forum?
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html
"Many pilgrims are non-believers and engage in sexual relations along the way, undermining Catholic morality" particularly stood out! Heck, I didn't see any of this lol!
sex? WHERE? LOL ... there is a special place in hell for people such as those ... the same goes for people who talk in theaters ... (Got that line from an old sci-fi movie ... I forgot which movie) ... seriously now, there is a time and place for everything and the Camino isn't the time and place for such activities ... the same goes for scammers and pickpockets and such ... during the middle ages, wasn't robbing a pilgrim a capital offence? well, back then everything was a capital offence come to think of it ...
And on top of that, 106 degree temperatures this week!Well, honestly I feel like protesting in Oregon.
The freeways are packed, the prices are going crazy, and the charm of the city is being ruined by people with boatloads of money coming in and running out the locals.
There, I vented.
This maybe a nation-wide problem:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...s-influx/ar-AAprjpg?li=AA4Zpp&ocid=spartanntp
Well, honestly I feel like protesting in Oregon.
The freeways are packed, the prices are going crazy, and the charm of the city is being ruined by people with boatloads of money coming in and running out the locals.
There, I vented.
Welcome to the "New World Order"
Prices go up because of supply and demand - exhausted travelers will always pay a premium for everything ... the key is not to put yourself in a position of economic blackmail ... I plan to bring my own "coffee gear" and hence not pay for non-refill expensive coffee ... hopefully, I won't be bothered during my coffee ceremony by the side of the road ... my coffee ritual mimics the Japanese tea ceremony ...
Pilgrims (about 50,000-60,000 annually passing through Logrono) are indeed a minority among their tourists/visitors. From what I remember, Logrono struck me as a fairly prosperous town.Based on that documentary they have more problems with stag and hen parties than a few smelly pilgrims will cause.
Where I live, wealthy foreigners have been pricing the locals out since the late 19th Century -- we don't need a protest, we need a TARDIS !!
Pilgrims (about 50,000-60,000 annually passing through Logrono) are indeed a minority among their tourists/visitors. From what I remember, Logrono struck me as a fairly prosperous town.
Protesting against tourists becomes boring. Protesting against pilgrims (something that Barcelona doesn't have - they've been in the news lately, also Majorca) gets a bit more attention, at least temporarily.
Just on this, while I see nothing wrong with wanting to save money, just in relation to Spanish coffee..... it is delicious! It is far from expensive, and the ordering & consumption of it is a great opportunity to meet people.
I always carry my own coffee making kit when I tour on my bike. But not on the Camino. I hope you bring an extra cup to share - then it's more than just a caffeine fix.
As for the topic of the thread, I encountered quite a few, what I would call "cheap" tourists - they were only on the Way for the cheap infrastructure. Mind you, I'm sure some of the hardcore pilgrims thought the same of irreligious little old me!
And as for locals protesting, perhaps they have a point. An infrastructure has been put in place and they see some people extracting every last possible drop of value from it, while contributing as little as possible. And I'm not just talking financially. I witnessed many pilgrims bringing their expectations and standards to rural Spain and being ignorant and offensive in their demands. A situation sure to inspire resentment is some of the local community at least. Having said that, witnessing these events gave me a lot of food for thought in relation to my own behaviour.
And as for the rest of this discussion? Far too political for my tastes
Frank
There was a Spanish documentary on http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/ a few months ago on the rowdy tourists in the centre of the city. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name and could not find a link. Based on that documentary they have more problems with stag and hen parties than a few smelly pilgrims will cause.
.......................and I suspect we are a bit less smelly than the early pilgrims.
It's sad but I have often wondered how the locals cope with the constant stream of pilgrims through their space day after day. I have lived in what I thought was a high tourist area and found it difficult and it was nothing compared to the Camino Frances.
well I have seen it and the drinking is also taking over their lives at nite. I walked mostly alone and stayed in pensions or small hotels to avoid all this nonsense.Couldn't see this posted elsewhere on the forum?
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html
I was rather surprised to see this article from El Pais regarding the Camino. Such claims as "Many pilgrims are non-believers and engage in sexual relations along the way, undermining Catholic morality" particularly stood out! Heck, I didn't see any of this lol!
Apparently Longrono locals were protesting outside the Municipal Albergue in the city with banners such as 'pilgrims go home'!
I wonder if anyone who was walking in July witnessed any of this?
It's sad but I have often wondered how the locals cope with the constant stream of pilgrims through their space day after day. I have lived in what I thought was a high tourist area and found it difficult and it was nothing compared to the Camino Frances.
well I have seen it and the drinking is also taking over their lives at nite. I walked mostly alone and stayed in pensions or small hotels to avoid all this nonsense.
Couldn't see this posted elsewhere on the forum?
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html
I was rather surprised to see this article from El Pais regarding the Camino. Such claims as "Many pilgrims are non-believers and engage in sexual relations along the way, undermining Catholic morality" particularly stood out! Heck, I didn't see any of this lol!
Apparently Longrono locals were protesting outside the Municipal Albergue in the city with banners such as 'pilgrims go home'!
I wonder if anyone who was walking in July witnessed any of this?
Couldn't see this posted elsewhere on the forum?
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html
I was rather surprised to see this article from El Pais regarding the Camino. Such claims as "Many pilgrims are non-believers and engage in sexual relations along the way, undermining Catholic morality" particularly stood out! Heck, I didn't see any of this lol!
Apparently Longrono locals were protesting outside the Municipal Albergue in the city with banners such as 'pilgrims go home'!
I wonder if anyone who was walking in July witnessed any of this?
It's been going on for the last 20 years or so in a way you could notice. Prior to that it had been rare to see a pilgrim of anykind for centuries. So one can see why people would be annoyed to see the face of their beloved town or village change so drastically.in this economic world ... some people would love to have their clients come to them ... but I agree, it can burn a person out ... still, you'd think they'd be used to it by now (I mean, it's been an ongoing thing since the 1200s?) ...
my wife and have averaged about 75 Euros a day, and I considered that a bargain, 20 a day per person, I wishWhat are the pilgrim dollars? 22o,000 pilgrims at, say, 20 euros a day?
So daily pilgrim expenditure would be about 4,400,000 - 4 million 400 thousand Euros??? Crikey!!!
I was in Logrono in July, didnt see ant protesters- just tje opposite people were friendly and appreciated our Pilgrim spending!Couldn't see this posted elsewhere on the forum?
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html
I was rather surprised to see this article from El Pais regarding the Camino. Such claims as "Many pilgrims are non-believers and engage in sexual relations along the way, undermining Catholic morality" particularly stood out! Heck, I didn't see any of this lol!
Apparently Longrono locals were protesting outside the Municipal Albergue in the city with banners such as 'pilgrims go home'!
I wonder if anyone who was walking in July witnessed any of this?
it's also disenchanting or disheartening for people to find out that others in a similar or lower profession from another country (first world economy vs second or third world economy) earn vastly more than they do and can afford to go on vacations ...
Couldn't see this posted elsewhere on the forum?
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html
I was rather surprised to see this article from El Pais regarding the Camino. Such claims as "Many pilgrims are non-believers and engage in sexual relations along the way, undermining Catholic morality" particularly stood out! Heck, I didn't see any of this lol!
Apparently Longrono locals were protesting outside the Municipal Albergue in the city with banners such as 'pilgrims go home'!
I wonder if anyone who was walking in July witnessed any of this?
Good Morning and Greetings from Jerusalem. Pilgrims are not Tourists however...
Our newspapers here have articles relating to a protest in Barcelona and throught the Catalan and Basque areas of Spain against what a seen as the deterioration of normal life due to the encroachment of tourists. "Vacation" homes purchased and rented out to groups of foreigners who party all night, drink too much, and pester the local women. Prices of foodstuffs, restaurants, rents all already high driven ever upwards supposedly due to this influx of foreigners.
Pilgrims are not usually perceived as tourists, are welcomed in cities, warmly welcomed in the smaller towns and villages. Occasionally there are loud celebrations of pilgrims ending quite early since the albergue doors will soon close. I have not seen animosity but in larger towns Burgos, Leon, even Astorga,I have experienced the leery reception of solid citizens uncertain if I was a pilgrim or a vagabond.
This protest should not affect the Camino nor the pilgrim but it exists and we should be aware.
View attachment 35434
Not exactly.
There's a disrespectful term to name some kind of people: Perroflauta (dogflute). The stereotype says that this kind of people doesn't work, doesn't know the soap, has dogs and plays the flute to make some money.
So, the mochiflautas have a backpack instead of a dog.
It seems one form or other of nationalism is popula
I am from Portland, OR, the home of the hipster. So I know what one looks like. I have never seen a hipster walk the Camino, at least not in hipster garb!
In the days of old, pilgrims characteristically ran out of funds ... before credit and debit cards, before bank transfers and such ... someone should make a reenactment documentary on how that pilgrimages on the Camino were like during certain eras ... (example: in the 1950s. 1960s, in the middle ages?) ... today, pilgrims use high tech ultralight gear that is (to me at least) very expensive (a 300 USD sleeping bag?). I have many questions like: What did the pilgrims of old eat? (probably whatever was there), Where did they sleep? (probably wherever they could. Church courtyards?). How long did it take? (I don't think they did 20 Km/day) ...
I personally think that in this day and age of comfort and convenience, pilgrims should smile more often ...
In the days of old, pilgrims characteristically ran out of funds ... before credit and debit cards, before bank transfers and such ... someone should make a reenactment documentary on how that pilgrimages on the Camino were like during certain eras ... (example: in the 1950s. 1960s, in the middle ages?) ... today, pilgrims use high tech ultralight gear that is (to me at least) very expensive (a 300 USD sleeping bag?). I have many questions like: What did the pilgrims of old eat? (probably whatever was there), Where did they sleep? (probably wherever they could. Church courtyards?). How long did it take? (I don't think they did 20 Km/day) ...
As for the sleeping, a combination of outdoors
my wife and have averaged about 75 Euros a day, and I considered that a bargain, 20 a day per person, I wish
Catalan. "We want a dignified neighbourhood".Welcome to Globalization ... btw, what does "Volem un Barri Digne" mean? is it Basque?
Catalan. "We want a dignified neighbourhood".
As for being a genuine peregrino, @KinkyOne slept outside on an abandoned railroad platform bench on the Camino Levante. In my eyes, that makes him the real deal peregrino! But I don't think he looked like a hipster when he did it though...
A word of caution to some posters....
Please do not stray into political statements or comments concerning Spain or any other country.
In the days of old, pilgrims characteristically ran out of funds ... before credit and debit cards, before bank transfers and such ... someone should make a reenactment documentary on how that pilgrimages on the Camino were like during certain eras ... (example: in the 1950s. 1960s, in the middle ages?) ... today, pilgrims use high tech ultralight gear that is (to me at least) very expensive (a 300 USD sleeping bag?). I have many questions like: What did the pilgrims of old eat? (probably whatever was there), Where did they sleep? (probably wherever they could. Church courtyards?). How long did it take? (I don't think they did 20 Km/day) ...
I personally think that in this day and age of comfort and convenience, pilgrims should smile more often ...
The old "norm" was 40 km a day ! Staggering and I have met only a couple that could do that !
The old "norm" was 40 km a day ! Staggering and I have met only a couple that could do that !
Modern day "Hipster" clothing: View attachment 35457
On my first Camino my daily average was about 35km. I met quite a few people then and on later walks who were walking further and faster than me each day. With no bed race to worry about we could quite happily walk until early evening before stopping. In those circumstances 40km does not seem an unlikely figure to me.
Most nights I managed to have a shower. No one complained. I was quite often invited to join families or groups of friends in bars and restaurants. But for at least a third of my nights I had refugios to myselfWhat did you smell like after? did birds drop dead after you walked by? more importantly, does doing 35Km a day give you enough time for spiritual reflection?
does doing 35Km a day give you enough time for spiritual reflection?
Most nights I managed to have a shower. No one complained. I was quite often invited to join families or groups of friends in bars and restaurants. But for at least a third of my nights I had refugios to myselfNot clear what your last question means though: are you suggesting that it is not possible to walk and think at the same time? I probably reflect more deeply and completely when I am on the move
One could argue it gives you more time for reflection than hanging out of the local watering hole with one's albergue mates starting at 2pm and into the evening.... more importantly, does doing 35Km a day give you enough time for spiritual reflection?
That is interesting, as I find that walking is the best activity to encourage reflection. Maybe you don't walk far/long enough to get past the clutter. The first hour or so of walking is needed to clear the mind of other recent activities, and then the reflection can begin.I have trouble walking and reflecting at the same time ...
Jay, thank you for your determination to pick up litter along the Way. But PLEASE don't leave the filled bags along the trail -- there is nobody out there going to pick those up and take them away.
There are plenty of bins in the next town. If you're towing a wagon, please take the trash along to the next dumpster.
St. James will thank you.
Quite the opposite for me: the physical repetition of putting one foot in front of the other for several hours has a calming and stilling mental effect. An outlet for my normal restless state. I think it probably works in much the same way as repeating a mantra in meditation or reciting the rosary. Something physical and repetitive that occupies the body and the less easily focussed parts of my mind and frees me to think more clearly and in greater depth.I have trouble walking and reflecting at the same time ... perhaps it just takes getting used to ...
No, there aren't. The Camino is not a linear park. You walk through many different towns, municipalities, districts and farm areas, some of which have local garbage collection and some of which probably don't. You will see large bins in towns for garbage and recycling, and that would be the best place to leave any garbage you have collected.Aren't there any garbage maintenance trucks that drive along the route?
One could argue it gives you more time for reflection than hanging out of the local watering hole with one's albergue mates starting at 2pm and into the evening.
Look up "walking meditation", just another meditation technique.
Quite the opposite for me: the physical repetition of putting one foot in front of the other for several hours has a calming and stilling mental effect. An outlet for my normal restless state. I think it probably works in much the same way as repeating a mantra in meditation or reciting the rosary. Something physical and repetitive that occupies the body and the less easily focussed parts of my mind and frees me to think more clearly and in greater depth.
We are talking about walking on the Camino de Santiago. Are you seriously planning to carry over 50% of your body weight on the Camino? I ask, not because I mind if you do, but because then I will know that we are discussing completely different activities.Maybe my pack is always too heavy? the minimum I carry is 50% of my body weight
Well, all those grains, beans and cookware to prepare must weigh a lot after all.We are talking about walking on the Camino de Santiago. Are you seriously planning to carry over 50% of your body weight on the Camino? I ask, not because I mind if you do, but because then I will know that we are discussing completely different activities.
We are talking about walking on the Camino de Santiago. Are you seriously planning to carry over 50% of your body weight on the Camino? I ask, not because I mind if you do, but because then I will know that we are discussing completely different activities.
We are talking about walking on the Camino de Santiago. Are you seriously planning to carry over 50% of your body weight on the Camino? I ask, not because I mind if you do, but because then I will know that we are discussing completely different activities.
No need for any survival gear at all. The Camino is super luxury glamping after all. As for the cube speaker, please don't. If you enjoy listening to music, or podcasts, do so with earplugs....maybe I don't need too much survival gear?etc, etc, etc ... found a non bluetooth "cube speaker", tempted to bring it ...
Well, all those grains, beans and cookware to prepare must weigh a lot after all.
Well, I have no advice.50% is a conservative estimate.
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