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I didn't!Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
What can I do?
Or 1,50 cm high in total: the body of the container is 94 cm high, widest diameter of the container is 59 cm, the upper chain section is 56 cm high. And judging by the videos, they don't fill the lower half of the container up to the brim.the form of the Bfo that is 1m 60 cm high (looked it up) from top to bottom.
I meant don't look up the weight of the Bfo because you will find answers from 50 kg to 160 kg! (Wikipedia and aleteia.org). The figure of 160 kg is stated to include the weight of charcoal added. Even without the charcoal you can find figures from 53 kg to 62 kg. So some people are thinking they add 100 kg of charcoal to the Bfo!I didn't!
I searched Facebook for tiroboleiro, and came up with zero results.I can just about cope with posting a question on this forum. The notion of using FB to find a tiroboleiro is way beyond my capabilities.
This looks like a job for Facebook.
They don't strike me as being a group likely to be active on Facebook! Or Instagram. Maybe Tiktok, though!I searched Facebook for tiroboleiro, and came up with zero results.
I actually went ( for the first time ever ) to Tiktok to search for the Tiroboleiros.They don't strike me as being a group likely to be active on Facebook! Or Instagram. Maybe Tiktok, though!
I didn't mean to search directly. Post a query and then hope the seven degrees of separation will work its magic (e.g., someone knows Martin Sheen who contacts his son Emilio who puts you in touch with the tiroboleiero who lent him his robe).I searched Facebook for tiroboleiro, and came up with zero results.
Neither of these have to take long.The congregation could not be asked to wait while the mass of 40 kg is lit. And just think how long 40 kg of charcoal would burn
About 17 pulls on the ropes but it swings many more times than that..Did you know that the Bfo swings 17 times? (allegedly) I'm not sure if a swing from north to south and back again counts as one swing or two.
You're welcome!Good thread! Thanks for this.
Here is another thought: Does anyone here know how often the overhead pulley+fulcrum structure is subjected to a technical inspection for safety?
So the volume of the part between the blue lines would be rather less than half the volume I calculated. Half the volume would be 132,890 cm³. So 40 kg would not fit in there. That's a good argument for my e-friend. But it could hold somewhere in the region of 25 kg. (I've not calculated that, it's just an estimate.)The dimensions of the big one are shown below. The blue lines mark the lower part where the charcoal and incense are placed. It is nearly a kind of half sphere - cylinder works, too. Just wondering: Is this the one they use all the time? I understand that there is a smaller replica called La Alcachofa?
(Click to enlarge)
View attachment 114628
The cathedral website says the Bfo "measures 1.50 metres". [Wiki says 1.60 m.] If that figure (1.50) is right, then the diameter is 92 cm (approx). I'll have to start again with the abacus. It's past my bedtime. I'll look again tomorrow (that's today, actually).The dimensions of the big one are shown below. The blue lines mark the lower part where the charcoal and incense are placed. It is nearly a kind of half sphere - cylinder works, too. Just wondering: Is this the one they use all the time? I understand that there is a smaller replica called La Alcachofa?
(Click to enlarge)
View attachment 114628
I don't quite understand why you find this hard to believe? We don't know how many Botafumeiros existed, what they looked like, what happened to them in the end.I find this, even the recent cases, hard to believe. [1499 and 1622 could be legends, and they were with the Bfo stolen by the French in 1809.] The Bfo would surely have been damaged if it fell from a height. It could have been repaired, but I don't see how you could make an "invisible repair" on something like the Bfo.
I used to have an absolute belief in the power of education. No longer. We have to accept that some people just cannot be convinced by rational arguments and it is wise to give up on them at one point and concentrate on others or other things.
I think that your estimate is reasonable, however you are ignoring the charcoal size.But it could hold somewhere in the region of 25 kg. (I've not calculated that, it's just an estimate.)
Another thing I had not been aware of (or had forgotten), thanks for mentioning this.charcoal dust is highly combustible
Ooops.One of the most renowned accidents took place during a visit of Princess Catherine of Aragon. She was on a journey to marry the heir to the English throne in 1499 and stopped by the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela. While it was being swung, the Botafumeiro flew out of the cathedral through the Platerias high window. No one was reported to have been injured on this occasion.
The ropes and other devices securing the Botafumeiro have also failed; on May 23, 1622, and more recently in 1925 and July 1937. In 1622, the Botafumeiro fell at the feet of the tiraboleiros. In July 1937, the cords holding the Botafumeiro failed again, and hot coals were spilled onto the floor.
Yes, that is very important. If they don't light the charcoal in the Btf then it will already be alight and would be in yet another (smaller) container.I've watched Youtube again yesterday and I noticed for the first time that one of the tiraboleiros holds a tool that looks like a kind of giant tongs and a shallow container with coal/charcoal in it and how he puts it into the Botafumeiro that appears to be empty otherwise.
Maybe they want that to be a mystery, so that people can say ridiculous but impressive things like "They put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo..."Wouldn't it be interesting to know for comparison?
I imagine that it's heavy enough to swing just fine all by itself, sans charcoal.Or does it need to be large and heavy in order to swing so impressively, so high and so fast? Ah, the many mysteries of physics ...
I know that this has become a standard story now and you can find this narrative in Wikipedia, blogs, guidebooks and even scholarly articles and books.One of the most renowned accidents took place during a visit of Princess Catherine of Aragon. She was on a journey to marry the heir to the English throne in 1499 and stopped by the cathedral in Santiago de Compostela.
So, not a lot of charcoal and no liquid oxygen.The shot then gives you a glimpse of the inside of the Botafumeria.
That's assuming that the available space is filled with charcoal. It is possible that:Ooops.
Watching the Botafumeiro swing on the webcam is a very interesting experience, because the lateral view webcam is right in line with the swinging. So the Bfo comes straight at the camera - strangely it almost seems like in slo-mo. I am sure I am not the only one who has wondered what would happen in the event of a rope failure. Coals on the floor seem like the least dire alternative.
But would it break through the window? That's hard to imagine, like a basketball going through a hoop far away.
Maybe.
Whatever happened it would have been both scary and embarrassing, depending on who you were.
OK more importantly, the numbers:
So the formula for the volume of a hemisphere is as follows:
V = V(sphere)/2 , V = 2/3 * π * r³ .
For a 30 cm radius we get:
56548.66 cubic cm
Say they use half of that, and you get 28,274.33 CC.
This website tells me that 1CC of charcoal weights .21gm, and calculates the weight of 28,274.33 CC to be 5.88kg, or 12.97lb.
That would be on the high end because they are putting in discrete coals, so there will be plenty of air space, say 33% (I'm just guessing here and have no idea if that is accurate); that brings down the amount as follows:
33% of 5.88 = 1.96
5.88-1.96=3.92
So 4 kilos is my rough guess. Which seems like a lot.
And I just saw your post, @Doughnut NZ, so make that 50%, even easier:
5.88/2=2.94
So...between 3 and 4 kilos.
It still seems like a lot.
@David Tallan, once the idea was born that we could work out the volumes, we just had to work them out ...Rather than doing all the calculations on the volume of the Botafumeiro
Incense or Frankinsence is a tree resin from the Boswellia tree, grown in the Middle East. It is used in a number of religions and can often be blended to get different smells. Try, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrankincenseThat video more or less confirms the reasonable assumption that only enough charcoal to cover the bottom of the vessel one layer thick is sufficient to get the incense smoking for the very short duration of the ceremony. If it's anything more than a half kilo or even less it would be very surprising. But the incense itself interests me. Is it pine resin (what the Aztecs called copal) or something else?
If you want to see it swing from left to right, sit facing the altar. If you want to experience it swinging over your head, sit facing the side of the altar as far forward as possible. Don't need to know the measurement or amount of charcoal.I know that if you ask the internet for information you will get answers that conflict with each other. The cathedral website does not state how much charcoal is used in the Botafumeiro [Bfo from now on, it's easier to type), and I would have no problem if everybody said "some charcoal is put into the Botafumeiro", but several sites and blogs do give a figure. I have an e-friend who has been blogging his 2013 Camino and he has read somewhere that they put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo and put that in his blog. I believe that this is nonsense, but I cannot convince him to change it. I have read in Spanish Wiki that they put 400 grams of charcoal into the Bfo. (Obviously, nobody weighs it; it's an estimate.) I believe that this has been converted to 0.40 kg, misread as 40 kg, and converted to 88 pounds, and rounded down to 80 pounds. English Wiki says "about 40 kg". I found over 400 results with <"botafumeiro" "40 kg" "charcoal"> Over 2000 results with <"botafumeiro" "400" "carbón" -"40 kg">. I have seen videos where you can see that a scoop of hot charcoal is placed in the Bfo. I have asked the Cathedral, but not had a reply. Apart from getting a certificate from the Cathedral, what can I do? Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
Am I the only one who has to surpress the urge to duck when it's approaching? Regardless of the amount of charcoal in there, it's a sight.If you want to experience it swinging over your head, sit facing the side of the altar as far forward as possible. Don't need to know the measurement or amount of charcoal.
Out of curiosity, I weighed a charcoal incense disk. A bit over 6 grammes. For 40Kgs I calculated you would need 6154 disks. Seems a lot to me!I will add a dimension or two to the botaconfusion discussion. What it is capable of holding in charcoal is unconnected to what it is called upon to hold.
What it is called upon to hold in current usage does not necessarily mirror what it was called upon to hold in ages past and in various ceremonial settings.
Charcoal is compressible. As an altar boy I recall the tight packed discs of charcoal we used that had a star impression on the top. They were also chemically treated to ignite at the touch of a match.
Personally, I’m pretty comfortable with it is capable of holding up to 40kg.
I can't tell you the weight or volume but I can tell you this. As a volunteer at the pilgrim office, I was invited to attend a pilgrim mass and receive a certificate from the church. The group of volunteers is typically seated inside the banister. There is probably a better name for that area but, not being Catholic I don't know what it is. I happened to be seated at the end of the bench nearest the entry point or gate through the banister. I happened to be wearing shorts and felt the heat as a priest entered the gate. Not because I was feeling guilty about anything but because he was carrying the glowing incense you referred to as charcoal. It was in a tray attached to the end of a two or three-foot rod which placed the tray near the floor. Now to your question of "How much?" I could plainly see it and the size of the tray was about that of a small dustpan. I would guess that the amount of incense used would fit into a medium-sized Glad Baggie, a far cry from the poundage your friend was claiming!I know that if you ask the internet for information you will get answers that conflict with each other. The cathedral website does not state how much charcoal is used in the Botafumeiro [Bfo from now on, it's easier to type), and I would have no problem if everybody said "some charcoal is put into the Botafumeiro", but several sites and blogs do give a figure. I have an e-friend who has been blogging his 2013 Camino and he has read somewhere that they put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo and put that in his blog. I believe that this is nonsense, but I cannot convince him to change it. I have read in Spanish Wiki that they put 400 grams of charcoal into the Bfo. (Obviously, nobody weighs it; it's an estimate.) I believe that this has been converted to 0.40 kg, misread as 40 kg, and converted to 88 pounds, and rounded down to 80 pounds. English Wiki says "about 40 kg". I found over 400 results with <"botafumeiro" "40 kg" "charcoal"> Over 2000 results with <"botafumeiro" "400" "carbón" -"40 kg">. I have seen videos where you can see that a scoop of hot charcoal is placed in the Bfo. I have asked the Cathedral, but not had a reply. Apart from getting a certificate from the Cathedral, what can I do? Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
Even though you didn't use the right terminology all the timeI can't tell you the weight or volume but I can tell you this
Here's an attempt at a screenshot where this can be seen, and that's all the coal that gets added:charcoal. It was in a tray attached to the end of a two or three-foot rod
You are assuming that is the only form available for their use.Out of curiosity, I weighed a charcoal incense disk. A bit over 6 grammes. For 40Kgs I calculated you would need 6154 disks. Seems a lot to me!
But charcoal comes in many forms. Here, for example, are compressed charcoal logs. Even though they are hollow, a 20 pound box only occupies 14,867 cubic centimeters.So the volume of the part between the blue lines would be rather less than half the volume I calculated. Half the volume would be 132,890 cm³. So 40 kg would not fit in there. That's a good argument for my e-friend. But it could hold somewhere in the region of 25 kg. (I've not calculated that, it's just an estimate.)
Yes, the Alcachofa is mentioned by Wiki:
There is another large thurible used in the other masses carried out in the cathedral, called La Alcachofa (literally, 'the Artichoke')[6] or La Repollo (literally, 'the Cabbage').[7] La Alcachofa is a silver-colored metal censer. It was created in 1971 by the sacred art artisans working under the craftsman Luis Molina Acedo.
You can find this on several sites, but the words are identical, so copy and paste has been used, with no checking, I should think. However, it is confirmed, in part, on the Cathedral's website:
Throughout history there have been several thuribles; today there are two; one made from brass dating from 1851 by José Losada, which substituted the one stolen during the French occupation and which is the one that is used normally. The second Botafumeiro is a replica in silver of the previous one and was given to the Apostle by the Provisional Second-Lieutenants in 1971. It is only placed in the cathedral’s transept when it is in use, and it is kept in the Chapter Library.
The only detail confirmed is the date, 1971.
Not plausible at all. There is a website (translatiomedia.com) that claims: "The total weight was 54 kilos. In 2006, Luis Molina Acebo restored the Botafumeiro, adding a silver bath that increased its weight to 62 kilos." (translated from Spanish)The article also says that during this last restoration, the 1851 Botafumeiro was coated with a "layer of silver of 20 microns", applied through electrolysis. One brave author or blogger writes that this made the 1851 Botafumeiro noticeably heavier and indicates by how many kilograms but I am not going to waste yet another old envelope to work out how plausible that claim is.
Hmm, I expect those working in the development of aircraft would probably be expected to use more exacting standards of measurement than those idly speculating about the volume of a lump of solid fuel.Wow, am I glad that none of the earlier commenters seems to be working in the business of developing, say, airplanes!
This is my favorite post on this thread.ye lads need your heads examined !!!!, When you could be hoping that your prayers arise to heaven like the smoke of the incense ye are spending your time doing calculations. !!!
commas and dots as separators between numbers appear to exchange places
It surprises me that you say that. Both the movement of the botafumeiro and the mechanism that puts it in motion and keeps it in motion have interested people, and there are technical papers on the net. The one where I got the sketch from says [translated]: Is the path of the botafumeiro safe? The most dangerous moment for an accident occurs at the top of the first cycles. - El momento mas peligroso un accidente ocurre en lo más alto de los primeros ciclos.The idea of the Bfo flying out of a window when the ropes break is interesting, but... Usually a rope breaks when the force is at its max and the max force on the rope works when the Bfo is at its lowest point! That leaves any influence of the tiraboleros out of the equation.
Fine. But as a physicist I sometimes try to put things a bit straight. That's not smart and bad for my heart. In mathematics 1 and 1.00 might be the same but that certainly is not true for physics. Lots of people won't believe that but the technicians know and use it.Perhaps we could go back to "idly speculating about the volume of a lump of solid fuel" instead of trying to teach each other stuff that we don't quite need for this idle discussion and that may be even not quite right? Unless my memory totally fails me, I know that there are areas of science/technology where 0.4 and 0.400 are the same thing; other areas where 0.4 is written as 0,4 and 4.000 is written as 4 000; other areas where you never write .4; and other areas again where 0.4 can mean anything between 0.40 and 0.49.
I have just done that. Of course, I could not follow the equations, but the general argument and conclusions seem to be OK. In simple pendulum theory, with a weightless rope, no air drag, etc, the tension in the rope would indeed be maximum when the rope is vertical. When you factor in all the complications, and you have a compound pendulum, it gets more difficult. Sanmartín writes, in the paper provided by Kathar1na:@Bert45, you may want to have a look at Botafumeiro: Parametric pumping in the Middle Ages, too. In the 1980s, somebody actually went and weighed stuff! And he did so with the assistance of Armando Raposo Guldrin, who was the head tiraboleiro for many years.
OMG that was scary to watch. I can imagine accidents here far more easily than in the Cathedral in Santiago.the church in Navarrete, the one with the huge gold covered altarpiece, also has a botafumeiro now. I finally had a look at YouTube videoclips. Well, their censer doesn't quite swing like the botafumeiro in Santiago does - how to describe it ... it appears to move more erratically up and down?
Yeah. Maybe those stories of the thurible flying through the window like a Magic Johnson long shot are true.Santiago may have started like this but then through trial and error and perhaps determination they developed the knowhow that they possess now.
Flying through the window and landing on the plaza outside - no. Crushing at a door - yes. The stories about the Botafumeiro flying through a window are on the same level as this description in the English Wikipedia, and I quote:Maybe those stories of the thurible flying through the window like a Magic Johnson long shot are true.
I was joking, actually. Sorry - I should have used an emoji. It's like a cartoon, because that could never happen. And like a cartoon the melodrama is amusing.Flying through the window and landing on the plaza outside - no. Crushing at a door - yes.
It may fly through the stained glass window but it won't actually fall to the ground until it looks down and realizes it is no longer supported.I was joking, actually. Sorry - I should have used an emoji. It's like a cartoon, because that could never happen. And like a cartoon the melodrama is amusing.
A Cathedral full of glitterati, whose upturned faces are all following the trajectory of the Bfo, back and forth, back and forth...then....OMG......as it flies off as if in slo-mo, neatly punching a hole through the stained glass window and crashing into the plaza outside, spreading it's 40kilos of charcoal all over the pavement.
The world stops for a split second, stunned into silence, then pandemonium.
I know that if you ask the internet for information you will get answers that conflict with each other. The cathedral website does not state how much charcoal is used in the Botafumeiro [Bfo from now on, it's easier to type), and I would have no problem if everybody said "some charcoal is put into the Botafumeiro", but several sites and blogs do give a figure. I have an e-friend who has been blogging his 2013 Camino and he has read somewhere that they put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo and put that in his blog. I believe that this is nonsense, but I cannot convince him to change it. I have read in Spanish Wiki that they put 400 grams of charcoal into the Bfo. (Obviously, nobody weighs it; it's an estimate.) I believe that this has been converted to 0.40 kg, misread as 40 kg, and converted to 88 pounds, and rounded down to 80 pounds. English Wiki says "about 40 kg". I found over 400 results with <"botafumeiro" "40 kg" "charcoal"> Over 2000 results with <"botafumeiro" "400" "carbón" -"40 kg">. I have seen videos where you can see that a scoop of hot charcoal is placed in the Bfo. I have asked the Cathedral, but not had a reply. Apart from getting a certificate from the Cathedral, what can I do? Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
I happened to observe the lighting of the charcoal ( attached photo) up stairs in the cloister just by chance. It is about 25 times the amount I use at Mass as Sacristan when I light our Botafumerio.I know that if you ask the internet for information you will get answers that conflict with each other. The cathedral website does not state how much charcoal is used in the Botafumeiro [Bfo from now on, it's easier to type), and I would have no problem if everybody said "some charcoal is put into the Botafumeiro", but several sites and blogs do give a figure. I have an e-friend who has been blogging his 2013 Camino and he has read somewhere that they put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo and put that in his blog. I believe that this is nonsense, but I cannot convince him to change it. I have read in Spanish Wiki that they put 400 grams of charcoal into the Bfo. (Obviously, nobody weighs it; it's an estimate.) I believe that this has been converted to 0.40 kg, misread as 40 kg, and converted to 88 pounds, and rounded down to 80 pounds. English Wiki says "about 40 kg". I found over 400 results with <"botafumeiro" "40 kg" "charcoal"> Over 2000 results with <"botafumeiro" "400" "carbón" -"40 kg">. I have seen videos where you can see that a scoop of hot charcoal is placed in the Bfo. I have asked the Cathedral, but not had a reply. Apart from getting a certificate from the Cathedral, what can I do? Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
Fantastic photo, thank you
Likely the pan of burning coals is placed into the pot for safe transfer down to the Botafumeiro.I guess we could wonder about the purpose of the pot on the left?
Peg estimated that she would put about a pound of charcoal into our old hibachi. Then I showed her the picture and she said "Not even that much.". So I will guesstimate 600 grams.Let's all guestimate the weight of charcoal in the bowl, then we can take an average of all the guesses to get a definitive answer. I'll start with 500 grams.
I know that if you ask the internet for information you will get answers that conflict with each other. The cathedral website does not state how much charcoal is used in the Botafumeiro [Bfo from now on, it's easier to type), and I would have no problem if everybody said "some charcoal is put into the Botafumeiro", but several sites and blogs do give a figure. I have an e-friend who has been blogging his 2013 Camino and he has read somewhere that they put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo and put that in his blog. I believe that this is nonsense, but I cannot convince him to change it. I have read in Spanish Wiki that they put 400 grams of charcoal into the Bfo. (Obviously, nobody weighs it; it's an estimate.) I believe that this has been converted to 0.40 kg, misread as 40 kg, and converted to 88 pounds, and rounded down to 80 pounds. English Wiki says "about 40 kg". I found over 400 results with <"botafumeiro" "40 kg" "charcoal"> Over 2000 results with <"botafumeiro" "400" "carbón" -"40 kg">. I have seen videos where you can see that a scoop of hot charcoal is placed in the Bfo. I have asked the Cathedral, but not had a reply. Apart from getting a certificate from the Cathedral, what can I do? Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
Thanks, Flog. Where did you get your photo? It's all sorted (sort of) now. My friend has read the scientific paper that Kathar1na led us to and revised his blog. He's gone down from 80 pounds to 'just under 2 pounds'.View attachment 123341It's about 200 grammes of ordinary lumpwood charcoal.
Yes, Debi, I saw it in December. My friend has been converted. It hardly matters, but did you see how the charcoal was lit? A match and barbecue firelighters or a gas torch?I posted this in the fall. I was at Santiago in September after finishing the Portuguese Way. I was up in the cloisters area to see them lighting the charcoal. As you see it is not lots of lbs. but a nice amount for the incense.
Is this really important?I know that if you ask the internet for information you will get answers that conflict with each other. The cathedral website does not state how much charcoal is used in the Botafumeiro [Bfo from now on, it's easier to type), and I would have no problem if everybody said "some charcoal is put into the Botafumeiro", but several sites and blogs do give a figure. I have an e-friend who has been blogging his 2013 Camino and he has read somewhere that they put 80 pounds of charcoal into the Bfo and put that in his blog. I believe that this is nonsense, but I cannot convince him to change it. I have read in Spanish Wiki that they put 400 grams of charcoal into the Bfo. (Obviously, nobody weighs it; it's an estimate.) I believe that this has been converted to 0.40 kg, misread as 40 kg, and converted to 88 pounds, and rounded down to 80 pounds. English Wiki says "about 40 kg". I found over 400 results with <"botafumeiro" "40 kg" "charcoal"> Over 2000 results with <"botafumeiro" "400" "carbón" -"40 kg">. I have seen videos where you can see that a scoop of hot charcoal is placed in the Bfo. I have asked the Cathedral, but not had a reply. Apart from getting a certificate from the Cathedral, what can I do? Don't start looking for the weight of the Bfo!
I don’t understand your question.Is this really important?
Obviously not to you, Scott. But it was to me and my friend. And thanks to everyone else who has helped settle the matter.Is this really important?
I shy away from topics which show even the slightest tendency to become contentious.
Usually.
But I can speak from personal experience on the single topic of how much incense goes into the botafumeiro.
I am a Catholic priest and always concelebrate at the pilgrim Mass when I reach Santiago. The number of concelebrants (these are priests who participate equally with the main celebrant - often a visiting bishop or else the Dean of the cathedral) varies considerably. Sometimes there are just two or three, sometimes 20.
I have concelebrated at least six or eight times when the botfumeiro has been used. On three of four time (I don't keep records) I have been one of those invited to add incense to the botafumeiro before it is swung. My walking-companion-nephew thought this was 'hypercool'. These are usually the main celebrant and two others. The amount of incense used is about 3 teaspoons full, at most 6. Not 'pounds'. It is about the same amount that would be used at a parish church in UK for a funeral for instance. The whole thing takes less then ten minutes. A little goes a long way.
Looking back on a well known online mail order site i can see that I bought 500g of high quality liturgical incense in 2019 for £21.58. That is 4.3 pence for a gram (That is about 5 cents of a Euro). You would imagine there would be a discount for bulk purchase.
Whatever the cost of 'flying' the botafumeiro is, the cost of incense is quite insignificant.
The price today is below £20 for 500g from the makers https://www.prinknashabbey.org/prinknash-incense but if you buy direct, you will have to add in postage!
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