- Time of past OR future Camino
- Too many and too often!
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My first Camino was slightly later in summer 1990. I walked from SJPDP to Santiago in 23 days - so not all that different from these younger people. That sort of time scale would not have been particularly unusual then. There were quite a few long stages between refugios. Private accommodation was also in very short supply. The daily pattern of walking then was often very different from today's norm. With no bed race and frequent long stages people would not normally stop at noon or 1pm as is quite common now. My own preference was to stop for my main meal at lunchtime if possible, rest for an hour or so, then carrying on walking until early evening. Others I met did likewise. As the menu peregrino did not yet exist restaurant meals were served at conventional Spanish hours with an evening meal rarely available before 9pm. Refugios were not usually staffed and there was no general 10pm curfew so eating later was not a problem provided you could stay awake for long enough! If I had found a substantial lunch on a given day then I rarely ate a full evening meal and more often had a bocadillo instead at an earlier time. I know that quite a few people chose to walk the final km or two barefoot though it was not a common practice even in 1990.In the same Peregrino edition, there'a also a report of 20 young Spanish guys, aged 15-18 years, who walked from Roncesvalles to Santiago in 21 and a half days. Their daily schedule (the times when they get up, when they eat, when they rest) is a bit different from today's Roncesvalles-Santiago pilgrims. Also, they proclaim one member of their group as the "king of the pilgrimage" at Monte del Gozo, and when they reach the town of Santiago itself, they walk barefoot through the streets to the Cathedral.
I'm actually more intrigued by the 10% - nearly 400 Compostela recipients - who are recorded as parte a pie. And what does this drawing in the infographic mean? Are the pilgrims changing the tires on their car?
My first Camino was slightly later in summer 1990. I walked from SJPDP to Santiago in 23 days - so not all that different from these younger people. That sort of time scale would not have been particularly unusual then. There were quite a few long stages between refugios. Private accommodation was also in very short supply. The daily pattern of walking then was often very different from today's norm. With no bed race and frequent long stages people would not normally stop at noon or 1pm as is quite common now. My own preference was to stop for my main meal at lunchtime if possible, rest for an hour or so, then carrying on walking until early evening. Others I met did likewise. As the menu peregrino did not yet exist restaurant meals were served at conventional Spanish hours with an evening meal rarely available before 9pm. Refugios were not usually staffed and there was no general 10pm curfew so eating later was not a problem provided you could stay awake for long enough! If I had found a substantial lunch on a given day then I rarely ate a full evening meal and more often had a bocadillo instead at an earlier time. I know that quite a few people chose to walk the final km or two barefoot though it was not a common practice even in 1990.
I'm actually more intrigued by the 10% - nearly 400 Compostela recipients - who are recorded as parte a pie. And what does this drawing in the infographic mean? Are the pilgrims changing the tires on their car?
I have to disagree. SJPDP was being thought of as the principal starting point for non-Spanish pilgrims as far back as 1985 when my own mother-in-law walked the Camino Frances as part of a large group. Roncesvalles was generally regarded as the start by most Spanish pilgrims then as now. By the time I walked in 1990 the UK's Confraternity of St James was publishing an A5 pamphlet supplement to Valina's guidebook which presumed that the majority of readers would begin at SJPDP. The numbers may have been ludicrously small by today's standards but SJPDP had clearly acquired a special prominence long before the millenium.I came across a recent article about the Compostela boom in Saint-Jacques-Pied-de-Port that says that it was only during the early years of this century (ie from 2000 onwards) that SJPP became a global rallying point for those who want to start this ever popular walk to Santiago.
It is good to point this out. I guess the article was trying to express that the pilgrimage boom in SJPP took off in the years around 2000 and that SJPP is now a global rallying point, with so many people from nearly all nationalities from around the globe now represented. It's perhaps no coincidence but a sign of this development that this particular forum with its specific audience was started in 2004.I have to disagree. SJPDP was being thought of as the principal starting point for non-Spanish pilgrims as far back as 1985 when my own mother-in-law walked the Camino Frances as part of a large group. Roncesvalles was generally regarded as the start by most Spanish pilgrims then as now. By the time I walked in 1990 the UK's Confraternity of St James was publishing an A5 pamphlet supplement to Valina's guidebook which presumed that the majority of readers would begin at SJPDP. The numbers may have been ludicrously small by today's standards but SJPDP had clearly acquired a special prominence long before the millenium.
You can start your camino walk anywhere. Look at all those that do only the last 100 km in Sarria. What about those that leave their front door in Sweden, Italy or some other country. I do think SJPP has become more popular due to the movie "The Way" and the many of the guidebooks have noted it as a starting point. That being said, when I walked, I walked from SJPP. I am so glad I did. It made it challenging, most memorable and certainly brought me to question, if I bit off more then what I could chew. A humbling experience. Wish I could go back tomorrow. Good luck to all those that walk...no matter where you start!I came across a recent article about the Compostela boom in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port that says that it was only during the early years of this century (ie from 2000 onwards) that SJPP became a global rallying point for those who want to start this ever more popular walk to Santiago.
And they are a manna for the locals, says the article. Between 65 000 and 70 000 pilgrims from 114 nationalities pass every year through the paved streets, with up to 500 pilgrims each day in May and September. They eat, drink and buy, they spend a night and take the road to Roncesvalles the next morning. Numerous inhabitants have made use of the opportunities and converted all or part of their homes into a gîte d'étape, an albergue or dormitories, in addition to the dozens of chambres d'hôtes. SJPP has now at least 470 beds for the pilgrims who pass through the town.
A town of 1 800 inhabitants with 140 shops, 25 restaurants (including one with Michelin stars) and a few bars, all spread out over the three main roads. The Boutique du pèlerin is mentioned, started 10 years ago by a former pilgrim, and also Express Bourricot who started at the same time and have now five employees.
And les voyageurs haut de gamme sont de plus en plus nombreux, and all this is expected to increase.
Leave no trace? Ha, we have quite an impact.
Source: L'impact du pèlerinage de Compostelle sur Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port
You can start your camino anywhere.
Year | 1999 | 2000 | 2001 | 2002 | 2003 | 2004 | 2005 |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Pilgrims | 7,000 | 10,000 | 14,000 | 17,000 | 18,000 | 22,000 | 24,000 |
Interesting. In 1993 the pilgrim office in Santiago issued 99,436 Compostelas. It is quite likely that a few pilgrims left SJPDP without calling in at the pilgrim office there and were not counted. But the comparison would seem to suggest that in 1993 only about 2% of those who received Compostelas started in SJPDP while last year the figure was 10%. A blip caused by far greater numbers of short-distance pilgrims in the 1993 Holy Year? Or evidence that SJPDP has grown in significance over the years?In 1993, they welcomed 2,000 pilgrims in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port.
Sorry, I was still fiddling around with the table and checking on my typos when you answered. It was 1995, not 1993.Interesting. In 1993 the pilgrim office in Santiago issued 99,436 Compostelas. It is quite likely that a few pilgrims left SJPDP without calling in at the pilgrim office there and were not counted. But the comparison would seem to suggest that in 1993 only about 2% of those who received Compostelas started in SJPDP while last year the figure was 10%. A blip caused by far greater numbers of short-distance pilgrims in the 1993 Holy Year? Or evidence that SJPDP has grown in significance over the years?
In that case the 10% figure seems very consistent - just under 20,000 Compostelas that year.Sorry, I was still fiddling around with the table and checking on my typos when you answered. It was 1995, not 1993.
I have to disagree. SJPDP was being thought of as the principal starting point for non-Spanish pilgrims as far back as 1985 when my own mother-in-law walked the Camino Frances as part of a large group.
the pilgrimage boom in SJPP took off in the years around 2000
I have enjoyed reading all the various views on SJPdP being the definitive starting point for the Frances
Year | 1996 | 1997 | 1998 | 1999 | 2000 | 2001 | 2002 | 2003 | 2004 |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Pilgrims | 1,300 | 2,000 | 2,900 | 7,000 | 10,000 | 14,000 | 17,000 | 18,000 | 22,000 |
Interesting. There is definitely a big leap in the 1999 Holy Year but I don't see a similar noticeable increase in 2004 or 2010. The increase from 2003 to 2004 seems less than the increase from 2006 to 2007, and the increase from 2009 to 2010 is much less than the increase from 2010 to 2011.The view from the SJPP Pilgrims Office about when the boom started in SJPP (Année jacquaire means Holy Year). Apparently, 1996 was the year when the SJPP Camino association were first tasked with running the Welcome Office and producing their statistics.
View attachment 67979
Some details:
Year 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Pilgrims 1,300 2,000 2,900 7,000 10,000 14,000 17,000 18,000 22,000
Point taken. ThanksIt isn't.
The huge increase in numbers for the Holy Year 2010 came from pilgrims who started closer to SdC than SJPP and it came mainly from Spanish pilgrims. I played around with the numbers a bit recently (I'm trying to acquaint myself with a different spreadsheet program than Excel) and it's stunning at first to see how the figures changed from 2009 to 2011, both throughout the year and for Spanish pilgrims and non-Spanish pilgrims in comparison. The non-Spanish pilgrims barely left a mark on the 2010 Holy Year figures.It seems that most of the large increases in pilgrims in 2004 and 2010 came from pilgrims who started closer to SdC than SJPP.
Santiago became a pilgrimage site in the ninth century when most of Spain was still under the control of the Moors. If you had tried walking across the meseta via Pamplona, Burgos and Leon at that time you would have been deprived of your head, personal property or more likely both, either by the Moorish soldiery or Christian bandits. Pilgrims had to keep to the coastal areas, north of the mountains (which were what helped the locals keep the Moors out). Most, in fact, sailed to somewhere along the coast then headed inland, hence the 'Primitivo' (which in Spanish means original or first rather than crude and unformed) from Oviedo, or the Inglés from A Coruña. Later on, pilgrims from east France, Germany, Italy etc would have found it convenient to cross the Pyrenees as soon as practicable, i.e. Somport, hence the Chemin D'Arles becomes the Aragonés from Canfranc (check out the station) to Óbanos. I've met pilgrims obsessed with the 'historic route'. One look at (for example) an old Ordnance Survey map will show you how even modern roads shift and change course. There are reservoirs, airports, industrial estates not to mention motorways above where our forebears would have walked. As one contributor has pointed out, mediaeval pilgrims would have gone from village to village relying on pilgrims coming the other way for directions. And I suspect Fr Elias did not have a passport anyway.Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
To be more precise, the bishop is the first international Santiago pilgrim known by name. Sources speak of other pilgrims who came from very far away before him but their names are not known. Nor is anything known about where the bishop or these earlier pilgrims first set foot on the territory of what is today's Spain.The first international delegation to head to Santiago was led by the bishop Godelasc of Le Puy in 950.
The thought occurred to me that what is often translated as "French" today is not what it meant in those days. The (Latin) word Francus denoted anyone who came from the vast area on the other side of the Pyrenees and that included not only what is today's France but also the area of today's Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands and adjoining areas of west-north Germany in particular. To translate Francus/Franci as French or Franks in this context is not necessarily correct. Someone wrote that the word was used in a similar way as gringo is used today for example. It denoted any foreigner who looked and sounded like these people from far away; the word was usually not associated with any or much negativity.we read chronicles from León complaining about all the Gascon and French pilgrims ... but not Germans, Dutch, Italians, etc. ...
The thought occurred to me that what is often translated as "French" today is not what it meant in those days. The (Latin) word Francus denoted anyone who came from the vast area on the other side of the Pyrenees and that included not only what is today's France but also the area of today's Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands and adjoining areas of west-north Germany in particular. To translate Francus/Franci as French or Franks in this context is not necessarily correct.
I have completed 3 Caminos none of which started in SJPdPMembers will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
@RENSHAW, you are truly a "Man for All Reasons!" I thoroughly enjoy how much insight and, dare I say Humor, you impart as you thoroughly cover your experiences on Camino. I would opine, that were I to capture all your Threads and sage replies, I will have an exciting, accurate and readable travel guide to eclipse even Brierley.A revived thread but good.
The Frances as most people say , starts where you choose.
I must admit that to start from Pamplona is something I did so many times , even taking the number 10 bus to Cizur Menor? I also took a bus a half a dozen times to Roncesvalles and I certainly benefited , experiencing a world that you may not see on the rest of the Frances? In 2003 there were elderly Bask peasants working in the fields , it traditional dress.
Merely from a romance point of view , I would like to some day start from SSPDP. ........... but that first day can be such a killer and I have seen many a pilgrim just push to hard for the first few days and then have to go home? You may have found it easy , me with my 'Ducks Disease' not ; as I have to take twice as many steps.
Starting at Burgos is also a preference and even Logróno ( I would have to double back for Viana.) , Navarra is a must to me?
If I had the money , I would take a bus or taxi to Zubiri and spend a night in that beautiful quaint hotel at the end of town. I have been there before after an all day rain affair from Roncesvalles. They offered a pilgrim special , I booked in and soaked in a hot bath followed by a power nap , I then changed for dinner. I had been upgraded to the silver class meal which include the obligatory sweet and cognac trolly. I joined another solitary pilgrim who had booked through 'Planet' and they had mapped out and booked an entire Camino for him , but in those days Spain was a lot cheaper.
I would suggest you reconsider, the CF is chock full unique architecture, living history (religious/cultural) and the Meseta. Why would any pilgrim want to skip an opportunity to visit Reb ad Paddy at the Peaceable Kingdom in Moratinos? The town is small, I think about seventy inhabitants (many over 70 y o) so the town is not fast paced, rather relaxing. As to the remainder of the CF. As many times I have walked that Way (apologies to Aerosmith and Steven Tyler), I've discovered that many and much is new again with the towns, people and even favorite albergues. I suspect, that once restrictions are lifted, the CF, and your personal favorites may not be recognizable; save for the thousand year old architecture, the very same as viewed, visited and venerated by pilgrims past.I have completed 3 Caminos none of which started in SJPdPI think is just become the "norm" for people travelling the "French" route to start in France. It makes sense to people. BTW I've done the Norte, VdP and Portuguese route i have no current intention of walking the "French Way", I am concerned i would find it to commercial and populated.
I'm not so sure there were major shrines, icons or reliquaries in St. Jean Pied de Port. The Medieval Pigrim's Guide believed to be by Aymeric Picaud (an English translation by William Melczer is relatively easy to find) has a section on the shrines that a French pilgrim would pass through and noticeably fails to mention any in SJPP. While he does mention many saints one should visit on the Le Puy route, he also mentions others on the route from Arles, so those crossing in Somport instead of SJPP would have no shortage of shrines to visit en route.The first international delegation to head to Santiago was led by the bishop Godelasc of Le Puy in 950. Subsequent Gascon and French pilgrims would pay homage to the local shrine to the Black Madonna at Le Puy, and then stop to pay homage at the major shrines, icons, and reliquaries at Conques, Rocamadour, Moissac, and St. Jean Pied de Port before crossing the Pyrenees to Roncesvaux and across Spain.
hmmm, the Way to Jerusalem is a lot older than the Camino ; and a purpose of several of the Crusades was to protect pilgrims, including the entire purpose of the Order of the Knights Hospitaller.(Side note two: Alessandro Barbero recently did an episode on the crusading era, and he discusses how even the first crusade started as a type of pilgrimage related to the pilgrimage to Santiago)
Same here. In fact, my goal wasn't Santiago, it was Finisterre - I wanted to walk all the way across an entire country.Why did I start in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, the honest answer is that was in the guidebook and it was easy to get to from Biarritz but more importantly I could tell everyone that I walked from France, through the Pyrenees and across Spain! It sounds better than I walked in Spain!
Interesting idea, but I think it's somewhat doubtful, and it may possibly be anachronistic.The thought occurred to me that what is often translated as "French" today is not what it meant in those days. The (Latin) word Francus denoted anyone who came from the vast area on the other side of the Pyrenees and that included not only what is today's France but also the area of today's Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands and adjoining areas of west-north Germany in particular. To translate Francus/Franci as French or Franks in this context is not necessarily correct. Someone wrote that the word was used in a similar way as gringo is used today for example. It denoted any foreigner who looked and sounded like these people from far away; the word was usually not associated with any or much negativity.
A famous refrain ("ultreia e suseia") in the Latin pilgrim song about Saint James ("Dum pater familias") is written in a dialect from the area, i.e. it's neither German nor Flemish/Dutch but something in-between. But hey, their language and their refrain made it into the Codex Calixtinus!
There is an article in Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Legacy - that lists a number of languages where a derivative of the Latin word Francus/Franci denotes not only the Franks but Europeans in general. I had been aware of the Persian Farangi or Ferengi because it appears in a series of old-fashioned adventure books that were still popular when I was younger. Today’s young and not so young people may have heard of the Ferengi, too - the name was appropriated by the writers for the Star Trek movies though no longer as a synonym for foreigners/Westeners/Europeans but to denote some extraterrestrial aliens.Good point! I didn't even think of that; I've just always gone along with the idea that the Camino Francés was the road of the French rather than the road of the Franks ... but it makes so much sense now that you point it out.
What does he know.Of course it starts in St Jean.
Just ask Martin Sheen!
Arn , coming from you I consider that a HUGE compliment.@RENSHAW, you are truly a "Man for All Reasons!" I thoroughly enjoy how much insight and, dare I say Humor, you impart as you thoroughly cover your experiences on Camino. I would opine, that were I to capture all your Threads and sage replies, I will have an exciting, accurate and readable travel guide to eclipse even Brierley.
Well done!
I started my factional novel about my alter-ego on Camino in 2008...the meds I was on created a writers block. Although the situations/locations were accurate, the characters were cardboard cutouts.Arn , coming from you I consider that a HUGE compliment.
In 2008 I started writing a book called 'Love on the Camino' , many moons before the explosion of camino autobiographies stated - only 2 thirds completed , you have spurned me on. I will post an excerpt some day. I never read books and I have some sort of undiagnosed ADHD. The book if chiefly for ME.
Every now and there are some cantankerous retired school teachers who point me out for my spelling - How ignorant? How demeaning? I am no Vincent van Gogh but I can paint ......... in my way.
Of course it starts in St Jean.
Just ask Martin Sheen!
Good idea!That moment I got a stamp in my credencial at my post office it set it all in motion for me. Someone in this forum suggested the home town post office stamp.
I have also read suggestions that the name Francés is not derived either from French or Frank, but from the Latin (and Spanish) 'franca' meaning free or open. In mediaeval times the largest contingent (even out numbering all other nationalities), but the route across northern Spain was kept open for the sake of commerce as well as for the pilgrimage. Franca was only later corrupted to 'Francés'.There is an article in Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Legacy - that lists a number of languages where a derivative of the Latin word Francus/Franci denotes not only the Franks but Europeans in general. I had been aware of the Persian Farangi or Ferengi because it appears in a series of old-fashioned adventure books that were still popular when I was younger. Today’s young and not so young people may have heard of the Ferengi, too - the name was appropriated by the writers for the Star Trek movies though no longer as a synonym for foreigners/Westeners/Europeans but to denote some extraterrestrial aliens.
As an aside, as with all translation, it depends on the context how the actual meaning of Francus/Franci is best expressed in another language and/or another time.
Yes, the Latin word franca had multiple meanings in the Middle Ages, and in Spain, one of these meanings was "free", namely free of certain tax obligations and other legal obligations.I have also read suggestions that the name Francés is not derived either from French or Frank, but from the Latin (and Spanish) 'franca' meaning free or open. In mediaeval times the largest contingent (even out numbering all other nationalities), but the route across northern Spain was kept open for the sake of commerce as well as for the pilgrimage. Franca was only later corrupted to 'Francés'.
Kanga,I'm rather sad that I have a credentiale, all filled in with a first stamp from my local St James church here in Sydney, that I have not been able to use. It was for last year's camino-that-did-not-happen.
Interesting. So who does name all the caminos?As a matter of fact, some time ago I tried to find out just when the Camino Frances started to be called Camino Frances or via franca or any combination of via or camino and franca, franco, etc and I didn't get far. In old reports, people usually write that they will go to Saint James in Galicia.
Whoever talks about them.Interesting. So who does name all the caminos?
So SJPP allows people to be both "completists," and "minimum achievers?" Perhaps that's true for some people but I have the feeling that most devotees of SJPP haven't spent a huge amount of time analyzing the decision. They're following the tradition because it's the tradition because it's the tradition.I think is just become the "norm" for people travelling the "French" route to start in France. It makes sense to people.
No, it's derived from a Provençal / Langue d'Oc word designating specifically France and the French. As is the French word "français" !!I have also read suggestions that the name Francés is not derived either from French or Frank, but from the Latin (and Spanish) 'franca' meaning free or open.
I've not walked the "FrenchWay" and have no plans to do so, I prefer more solitude on my walks and accommodations. I have walked the Norte, SdP and Portuguese. We plan on walking another when bordered allow, perhaps the Mozarabe but it likely will not be the French route.So SJPP allows people to be both "completists," and "minimum achievers?" Perhaps that's true for some people but I have the feeling that most devotees of SJPP haven't spent a huge amount of time analyzing the decision. They're following the tradition because it's the tradition because it's the tradition.
I kind of hope that the difficulty of crossing borders right now does something to de-fetishize the act of starting in SJPP. I think it would be no bad thing if people start to feel that setting off from Roncesvalles or Pamplona or another location that is right for them can also be "the tradition," whether its the Spanish tradition, or their personal tradition.
I came across a one discussion recently about how to get from Spain to SJPP in order to walk from SJPP. Clearly, some people plan to go to some trouble to cross the border twice in rapid succession. Everyone is free to decide for themselves what is important to them. Speaking for myself, it would not be satisfying to put so much emphasis on "walking around the flagpole."
I have a credentiale with just the first stamp, too, that I am waiting to use on my next Camino Frances. It's been waiting since 1989. I'm hoping to complete it within the next few years. If I hold off until 2024, it will be 35 years old when completed.I'm rather sad that I have a credentiale, all filled in with a first stamp from my local St James church here in Sydney, that I have not been able to use. It was for last year's camino-that-did-not-happen.
I really do not understand why more people do not just start in Madrid. Take the Cercanias(?) train from airport to Charmartin station and start walking from there. Once you hit Sahagun you can continue on the Frances, at Leon, you have the option to do San Salvador to Oviedo from there the Primitivo or Norte and then back to finish on Frances or continue on the Frances to Ponferrada where you can pick up the Invierno or continue on the Frances, finally ending up in Santiago or carry on to Finistere. So many choices.
I do realize my run-on sentence structure has gone awry. If it truly bothers someone feel free to correct.;-)
Ultreya,
Joe
One of these days I will start in Madrid (although from Plaza San Vicente de Paul where I used to live, rather than from Chamartin). But I can see why it is not the automatic starting point for people (other than madrileños). All of the media that people take in (books, movies, etc.) do not show people starting in Madrid. Generally the historic accounts (from Codex Calixtinus on) do not show people starting in Madrid. When people think of following in the footsteps of the millions of pilgrims over the centruries, they tend to think of crossing the Pyrenees and taking the Camino Frances. What would prompt someone to think of flying to Madrid and starting with the Camino de Madrid?I really do not understand why more people do not just start in Madrid. Take the Cercanias(?) train from airport to Charmartin station and start walking from there. Once you hit Sahagun you can continue on the Frances, at Leon, you have the option to do San Salvador to Oviedo from there the Primitivo or Norte and then back to finish on Frances or continue on the Frances to Ponferrada where you can pick up the Invierno or continue on the Frances, finally ending up in Santiago or carry on to Finistere. So many choices.
I do realize my run-on sentence structure has gone awry. If it truly bothers someone feel free to correct.;-)
Ultreya,
Joe
One of these days I will start in Madrid (although from Plaza San Vicente de Paul where I used to live, rather than from Chamartin). But I can see why it is not the automatic starting point for people (other than madrileños). All of the media that people take in (books, movies, etc.) do not show people starting in Madrid. Generally the historic accounts (from Codex Calixtinus on) do not show people starting in Madrid. When people think of following in the footsteps of the millions of pilgrims over the centruries, they tend to think of crossing the Pyrenees and taking the Camino Frances. What would prompt someone to think of flying to Madrid and starting with the Camino de Madrid?
et suseia!
David
I like the idea of the Camino starting at my front door. That's why I want to do the Camino Madrid from Plaza San Vicente de Paul, the closest I can come to that.Try thinking of it this way. The Camino starts at your front door. Therefore, Why wouldn't it start where you first set foot in Europe vs. taking buses, trains and taxis to arrive at a starting point.
Ultreya,
Joe
I like the idea of the Camino starting at my front door. That's why I want to do the Camino Madrid from Plaza San Vicente de Paul, the closest I can come to that.
But why assume Madrid is the first place one sets foot in Europe? Many fly to other destinations. And even if one is flying to Madrid, by your logic, one should start walking from the airport (as I've read some do) rather than taking the train to Chamartin.
And, in any case, I wasn't saying I failed to understand where you were coming from. But you were saying that you failed to see where people are coming from who start elsewhere. ("I really do not understand why more people do not just start in Madrid") I was trying to explain that. All sorts of starting places are valid.
One motivation for starting there is the fantastic cider.Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
Then the better choice might be to start in Oviedo and walk the PrimitivoOne motivation for starting there is the fantastic cider.
If you’re Spanish it starts in RoncesvallesWe could also say the planes, trains, and buses from our front door to SJPP are part of the pilgrimage itself, and that it's only the Camino Francés stage of the pilgrimage that starts in SJPP.
If you want cider, walk the Vasco.One motivation for starting there is the fantastic cider.
Or from Rotterdam like a friend of mine did.If you’re Spanish it starts in Roncesvalles
Very many thanks for this. I do not understand the compulsion to start at SJPdP. It is not one of the great medieval assembly points for pilgrimage. Do we blame Brierley? Why not start from Vézelay, le Puy, Paris - or anywhere? Your own front door, if you live in Europe? Why not choose a less populous route?Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
Are you sure of that? I went to the UNESCO site and I didn't see any mention of SJPP in the decision documents I looked at, either the original 1993 decision, the most recent decision (which added the Norte and Primitivo in 2015) or the few I sampled in between. In fact the original decision is very explicit in that it only includes the parts of the Camino within Spain. France said it would nominate Caminos within France in due course,The ‘Official’ Camino starts in SJPdP because UNESCO says so - the Route to Santiago in Spain was added to the World Heritage List in 1993 and it specified SJPdP as the start point. Where your pilgrimage starts and finishes is entirely up to you.
Routes of Santiago de Compostela in France are on the same list as Routes of Santiago de Compostela: Camino Francés and Routes of Northern Spain, see https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/868 and https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/669France said it would nominate Caminos within France in due course, but that doesn't seem to have been done (or concluded).
I went back and found this and added it to my comment between the time you read my comment and the time you posted this.Routes of Santiago de Compostela in France are on the same list as Routes of Santiago de Compostela: Camino Francés and Routes of Northern Spain, see https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/868 and https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/669
In Spain a continuous area to the right and left of a marked trail is covered, in France it is only selected monuments and some sections of a marked trail. I don't know the reasons for it, perhaps it is due to the degree of what is conserved.
Did you make the same mistake that I made at first and searched only for Camino on the Unesco site? That gives you Spain but not France.I went back and found this and added it to my comment between the time you read my comment and the time you posted this.
I think so. Then I searched for Saint Jean Pied de Port to double check if I was missing a reference to it as the start of the Camino Frances.Did you make the same mistake that I made at first and searched only for Camino on the Unesco site? That gives you Spain but not France.
I started in Le Puy, and there was a very significant change in the feel of the camino at Saint Jean. It felt like a new start. It doesn't matter so much if it was a great assembly point five hundred years ago - today it very much is one.Very many thanks for this. I do not understand the compulsion to start at SJPdP. It is not one of the great medieval assembly points for pilgrimage. Do we blame Brierley? Why not start from Vézelay, le Puy, Paris - or anywhere? Your own front door, if you live in Europe? Why not choose a less populous route?
The UNESCO website is a bit short on details. As I understand it, the Spanish government declared the camino a 'bien de interés cultural', i.e. an important cultural site, in 1985 (not uncoincidentally, just before they joined the EU), but for obvious diplomatic reasons, they would have excluded SJPdP as it is in French territory, and thus started at Roncevalles. I kind of assumed that when UNESCO first added the camino to its list of World Heritage sites, in 1993, they were no longer constrained by cross border issues so they would have included the cross Pyrenees section. The pilgrimage routes in France are now also UNSECO listed, all four of them. Three of them combine at SJPdP, hence the assumption that the camino 'begins' there (i.e. stops being the route from Le Puy or Vézelay or Paris and become the 'Route through Spain'). I was really trying to make the point (as I think you were too) that 'a' or 'the' camino is something that can be debated endlessly and officially defined (rightly or wrongly), but that a pilgrimage is a personal decision, and all our pilgrimages begin and end when we choose, and whether SJPdP is the best place to start your pilgrimage is a very moot point. Cheers, and buen camino.Are you sure of that? I went to the UNESCO site and I didn't see any mention of SJPP in the decision documents I looked at, either the original 1993 decision, the most recent decision (which added the Norte and Primitivo in 2015) or the few I sampled in between. In fact the original decision is very explicit in that it only includes the parts of the Camino within Spain. France said it would nominate Caminos within France in due course,but that doesn't seem to have been done (or concluded). The maps of the Caminos included on the UNESCO site appear to terminate at the Spanish border. Of course, it could be right in front of my face and I'm missing it. It wouldn't be the first time.
Routes of Santiago de Compostela: Camino Francés and Routes of Northern Spain
A network of four Christian pilgrimage routes in northern Spain, the site is an extension of the Route of Santiago de Compostela, a serial site inscribed on the World Heritage List in 1993. The extension represents ...whc.unesco.org
Edited to add: France did propose its routes, which were added. Not surprisingly, they spread across France and do not begin or end in SJPP. So I'm not seeing the UNESCO designation recognizing SJPP in any way.
Routes of Santiago de Compostela in France
Santiago de Compostela was the supreme goal for countless thousands of pious pilgrims who converged there from all over Europe throughout the Middle Ages. To reach Spain pilgrims had to pass through France, and the ...whc.unesco.org
The Way of Saint James does not start at X just on the say-so of UNESCO.The ‘Official’ Camino starts in SJPdP because UNESCO says so
That's the case for me! I live less than 100km from Santiago. So, while in the past I could have just walked from my home and received a Compostela, I now must travel further away from Santiago and walk past my house a few days into my Camino.With the most recent addition to the Compostela rules that is actually the situation for some. If you are a Galician living within a 100km radius of the Cathedral and wish to receive a Compostela at the end of your pilgrimage you must now travel away from Santiago to a point on a recognised Camino route at least 100km from the city and walk from there. The same is true for Galicians further afield who live in some part of the province at some distance from a "recognised" route. What seems like the obvious thing to do - simply to walk by the most convenient/practical/interesting route from your own front door - is no longer acceptable to the cathedral. A situation I find bizarre.
My understanding was that a specific exemption to the 100K rule had been established recently for those in your situation, though IIRC that was at about the same time as the covid hit. Is that wrong ?That's the case for me! I live less than 100km from Santiago. So, while in the past I could have just walked from my home and received a Compostela, I now must travel further away from Santiago and walk past my house a few days into my Camino.
Sure. But I was trying to answer the original question, something on the lines of 'why do so many people think the camino starts at SJPdP?', and the answer is - partly because UNESCO gave it World Heritage listing thus reinforcing the idea, or misconception, that this was the 'real' camino. As you point out, everyone's camino (or maybe pilgrimage would be less ambiguous) starts where they do.The Way of Saint James does not start at X just on the say-so of UNESCO.
Of course -- many Caminos "start" there, and all well and good !!
But the Way is still not primarily a discrete hiking trail with a start and finish.
My own current Camino started and will end in Monte-Carlo, or near enough to there (about halfway done).
UN agencies are all well and good, and it's generally a good that this one has recognised the Way, but it has existed for hundreds of years before anyone even thought to create a League of Nations !!
In real terms, the Camino starts either a) where you choose to start, or b) the moment you step out of your front door.
I think that this impression derives directly from the work of Don Elias of O'Cebreiro, who "re-established" the camino from Roncesvalles last century. The marking of other routes followed later. So his "real" camino began in Roncesvalles, and before his intervention there were very few pilgrims. Access to Roncesvalles is still either via Pamplona, (backwards) or more logically St Jean.Sure. But I was trying to answer the original question, something on the lines of 'why do so many people think the camino starts at SJPdP?', and the answer is - partly because UNESCO gave it World Heritage listing thus reinforcing the idea, or misconception, that this was the 'real' camino.
Fr Elias made an enormous contribution to the Camino de Santiago especially the idea of walking it, but many others had a hand in its 20th century revival. I've attached a couple of pdf's which illustrate that the camino has a much more textured, you might say chequered, history than I had ever realised before we all went into lockdown and I had little else to do than research the history of the camino. Believe me, they make interesting reading, and there's plenty more they came from.I think that this impression derives directly from the work of Don Elias of O'Cebreiro, who "re-established" the camino from Roncesvalles last century. The marking of other routes followed later. So his "real" camino began in Roncesvalles, and before his intervention there were very few pilgrims. Access to Roncesvalles is still either via Pamplona, (backwards) or more logically St Jean.
Did he perhaps mark the route from the French border?
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