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Why is there not a full Frances (since that when this issue pops up, SJPP vs Roncesvalles) when there is a full Primitivo, Salvador, VDLP. We all know where these start and end, so why so much tension when SJPP is brought up as the starting point for the Frances?
Hi I've walked the 'full ' camino twice..... Do the whole Camino.
The whole Camino starts in LePuy.
Agree, but Bishop Godescalc's home church in 951 was the cathedral in LePuy, and thus the Camino Frances starts there, and not in SJPP.Not really -- from a genuine historical perspective, the Camino starts and ends at the altar of your home parish church ; Santiago is the halfway point. Starting "at your own front door" is just the more secular version of this, though in practice it would also have been the material starting point of a mediaeval Camino too.
These modern myths have taken on a life of their own and are unlikely to die down, mainly I think because people like them more than the uncertain barely known historical facts. Yes, we know that Godescalc travelled to Compostela in the winter of 951 but nobody knows how he got there. It is likely that he travelled along the Rhone valley. He most certainly did not go on foot. We know that he was accompanied by a "large party". He was in a hurry. It's possible that one of the reasons for his timing was the fact that the Galician king was dying and he planned to take part in the installation of the new king and other business. He himself did not write about the trip, or if he did we have no trace of it. The paths traced by the GR65 ( voie du Puy) are a 20th century invention.Agree, but Bishop Godescalc's home church in 951 was the cathedral in LePuy, and thus the Camino Frances starts there, and not in SJPP.
Actually, the camino frances starts shortly before Puenta la Reina where the Navarra camino and the Aragones camino merge. Beats me why not more people start there ...LePuy, and thus the Camino Frances starts there, and not in SJPP.
This lady left from her front porch in Belgium after her husband passed away. She is a few days from St Jacques de Compostelle, and a true pilgrim.
Splendid photo! Belgium to Santiago - that's about 3 months or 3 "full caminos"This lady left from her front porch in Belgium after her husband passed away. She is a few days from St Jacques de Compostelle.
. The paths traced by the GR65 ( voie du Puy) are a 20th century invention... It is likely that he travelled along the Rhone valley .
Kathar1na,These modern myths have taken on a life of their own and are unlikely to die down, mainly I think because people like them more than the uncertain barely known historical facts.
The route is far older than that. It was described in the Codex Calixtinus, compiled in the 1140's. I have a map from 1648 which shows the route as a "Chemin Traditionnel", and shows virtually every town the modern route passes through. The actual physical track may stray onto a hiking where the old roads are now major highways, but the route is very close to original.
I would love to see the reference speculating that the went east to the Rhone. It is very unlikely they would start out by travelling 100 km in the wrong direction, then go south into the Moorish influenced regions, rather than heading towards the Catholic stronghold of Moissac, Even Moissac endured regular raid from Moors to the south.
Check out: Reynolds, Roger E.. "A Precious Ancient Souvenir Given to the First Pilgrim to Santiago de Compostela."Peregrinations: Journal of Medieval Art and Architecture 4, 3 (2014).
"This reference is to Bishop Godescalc of Le Puy, the first recorded pilgrim to Santiago. ...... We know from a tenth-century source, , that Godescalc was proud that it was on the day that Santiago ascended to heaven, that is, his heavenly birthday (presumably 25 July), that he also was born. And to make things even better, it was also on that day that he was made bishop of Le Puy. So what was more appropriate than to celebrate those facts by making a pilgrimage.....Along the way they would likely have stopped at such important sites as Conques, with the shrine of St. Foi, then the monastery of Moissac."
After returning, Godescalc, the great fan of St Jacques, built a rather flamboyant shrine to commemorate the trip and promote the pilgrimage:
View attachment 35367
View attachment 35368
The map is not from 1648 but was designed in 1970 and shows how the designer imagines possible roads in 1648. Please see @mspath's comment under the link she kindly provided.I have a map from 1648 which shows the route as a "Chemin Traditionnel", and shows virtually every town the modern route passes through.
Nobody knows where he travelled as the sources are mum about it. It was January, winter - travelling along the Rhone valley may have been safer instead of across the Aubrac mountains. Nobody knows. For reference, see last paragraph.I would love to see the reference speculating that the went east to the Rhone.
I scrolled through it quickly but I see no reference to a primary source, just the author's assumption and copies of contemporary simple maps.Check out: Reynolds, Roger E.. "A Precious Ancient Souvenir Given to the First Pilgrim to Santiago de Compostela.
We know these facts. We also know that he travelled in winter to Santiago (and "in a haste"). Wouldn't it have been even more appropriate to go during June and July to Santiago?We know from a tenth-century source, that Godescalc was proud that it was on the day that Santiago ascended to heaven, that is, his heavenly birthday (presumably 25 July), that he also was born. And to make things even better, it was also on that day that he was made bishop of Le Puy. So what was more appropriate than to celebrate those facts by making a pilgrimage.
This is a bit funny because Godescalc dedicated the chapel to Saint Michael (archangel) and not to Saint Jacques. Le Puy was an important pilgrimage destination in its own right. It was a stop on the way to Compostela, just like many other sites. It wasn't a rallying point. The promotion of Le Puy as a starting point for the Santiago pilgrimage began in the middle of the 20th century, and quite successfully as it turned out.After returning, Godescalc, the great fan of St Jacques, built a rather flamboyant shrine to commemorate the trip and promote the pilgrimage.
the tradition of starting in Le Puy for Compostela is now a few decades old, so that's ok. It is just not centuries old.
Le Puy is the oldest traditional starting point
When people ask how to get from Paris to SJPP to start the route, I suggest they go downtown to the tour St Jacques and start walking from there.
This is something frequently misunderstood by modern pilgrims -- Arles, Le Puy, Vézelay, Paris, Tours weren't really "starting points", they were gathering points.
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Well, actually that tradition is as old as the iter Sancti Jacobi in the Codex Calixtinus, nine centuries ago. Read Meltzer, 1993, if you want an English translation. If you don't believe that, walk the route and don't miss the pilgrim related history along the way. All those weathered coquilles and ancient hopitals are not some 20th century invention. It is very obvious when you are on a modern route---the GR from Geneva to LePuy is a recent route and the towns are completely different.
LePuy is the oldest traditional starting point. As far as volume goes, the route from Paris became by the 1140's the "magnum iter Sancti Jacobi", the most important route. When people ask how to get from Paris to SJPP to start the route, I suggest they go downtown ....
Interestingly, the "author" of the saint-jacques.info website has very different theories on these topics.
First, that the French routes had nothinh to do with walking to Santiago and that the Codex was never the guidebook people think today that it was.
Le dernier Livre du Codex Calixtinus, base des itinéraires actuels, n’a été connu en Europe au Moyen Age qu'à quelques exemplaires, contrairement aux premières hypothèses qui l'avaient considérré comme un guide médiéval, titre qui lui fut donné en 1938. La comparaison avec la Chronique d'Alphonse VII a conduit Bernard Gicquel et Denise Péricard-Méa à donner une autre interprétation de ce document. Il manifestait la volonté d'Alphonse VI ( qui rêvait d'être Empereur à l'image de Charlemagne) d'étendre son influence sur la grande Aquitaine dont il invitait les seigneurs français à venir lui rendre hommage en tant que vassaux. L'Aquitaine était bornée par les quatre sanctuaires de Tours, Vézelay, le Puy, Arles et émaillée de tous les autres cités par le Guide. Trois des routes qu’il dessine sont des routes commerciales importantes du XIIe siècle, la route commerciale passant par Le Puy se dirigeait vers le sud et ne coincide pas avec l'itinéraire du Guide.
Secondly, that there never were hundreds of thousands or millions walking to Santiago and that those coming from out of Spain did so by boat, very few by the French routes. Quoi qu’on en dise, les étrangers à l’Espagne ne se sont jamais précipités en foules à Compostelle. Les comptages à partir des documents des frontières, des hôpitaux ou des confréries ne permettent de trouver que très peu de pèlerins sur les routes de France. Les pèlerins par mer furent sans nul doute beaucoup plus nombreux.
Thirdly, that all the artwork seen along the current French routes are not markers of the routes back then but simply the product of the local veneration for Saint-Jacques: On a longtemps cru que les nombreux objets du riche patrimoine relatif à saint Jacques constituaient, à travers l’Europe, des balises des chemins de Compostelle. Les connaissances actuelles conduisent à reconsidérer la question et à admettre que la majeure partie de ce patrimoine témoigne plutôt de dévotions locales à l’apôtre : dans toute l’Europe, les fidèles éprouvaient un besoin fréquent de le vénérer, en liaison avec leur lecture de l’Epître, un texte biblique qui lui fut attribué parfois jusqu’au XIXe siècle.
I agree that the website would benefit from references. I will try to,order her book and see that references are in there. Mille fois à Compostelle certainly excels at citing primary sources, perhaps this one also will.I'm really not at all impressed with the quality of research on display at that website.
Again, for anyone really interested, read Dénise Périgard-Méa, a contemporary French scholar who specialises in the research of the cult of Saint Jacques in the Middle Ages, notably in France. She happens to have a rather strong opinion on the commemoration sign that was put up there by enthusiastic promoters in 1965. She feels it should be removed and put into a museum because it is "history" now in view of current research. James Michener wrote "Spain" in 1968, he quoted what was believed at the time.
I've not explored the whole website or related sites, including the Fondation David Parou Saint-Jacques - Fondation Européenne pour la Recherche sur les Pèlerinages (FERPEL) and the Revue electronique . I'm not certain that there are not enough references to be found there.I agree that the website would benefit from references. I will try to order her book and see that references are in there.
I watched it just now. I did not understand every word but I did not see any glitzy dramatic presentations. I did not know that she had been a Santiago pilgrim herself. If I understood correctly, in 1982 (?) on horseback from Bourges (1500 km) and in 2001 on foot over 1100 km?One thing I've seen in Ted talks is that they are frequently an attempt to use glitzy dramatic presentations to drum up support for poorly supported positions. I have seen it time and again on scientific issues. It goes against the mainstream therefore must be true and exciting.
Agreed, the irk is when one starts doing something hoping to be part of an extremely old tradtion when in fact the tradition really is not what he or she thought and has fallen in the trap based on erroneous or misleading information.....but as I said recently, every tradition has to start at some point in time so why not in the 20th century.
Yes, the first time she went was by horse with her children, people telling her she was a terrible mother. That is when she became interested in Santiago. Then she went back on her own to learn about the route, history and traditions.I watched it just now. I did not understand every word but I did not see any glitzy dramatic presentations. I did not know that she had been a Santiago pilgrim herself. If I understood correctly, in 1982 (?) on horseback from Bourges (1500 km) and in 2001 on foot over 1100 km?
I just realized that I have Pericard-Mea's Compostelle et Cultes de Saint Jacques au Moyen Age as a Kindle edition. Of course there are dozens of footnotes/references for each chapter, many refer to departmental archives or for example the national archive in Paris. I agree with you: it's easier to find them when one can flip through the pages of a hardcopy.If I find the book I shall report back. I am old school, prefering paper where I can take notes, go back and crack the book open for a particular information, etc. More traditional.
Nobody knows where he travelled as the sources are mum about it.
We know these facts. We also know that he travelled in winter to Santiago (and "in a haste").
Denise Péricard-Méa has done a lot of own research and is trying to fight against many of the modern myths
That's a bit of a cheap shot towards a person who has decdicated 30 years of her life to this research, who as an academic had access to documents "ordinary people" did not have, and all of those who supervised her doctoral work and pears who particpated in lear reviews of her work.So this is just "exciting" revisionism for the sake of it.
I walked past the Tour Saint Jacques in Paris on my way to Santiago, even stopped for a café crême in a bistro facing it.
Again, for anyone really interested, read Dénise Péricard-Méa, a contemporary French scholar who specialises in the research of the cult of Saint Jacques in the Middle Ages, notably in France. She happens to have a rather strong opinion on the commemoration sign that was put up there by enthusiastic promoters in 1965. She feels it should be removed and put into a museum because it is "history" now in view of current research.
Before this thread, I did not know much about this scholar and researcher so it was only today that I learnt that she was encouraged or even asked by Rene de La Costa-Messeliere (!) to enrol at university as he felt that more scientific research on medieval pilgrimage was needed.In my experience, scholarly work on the Camino, including the seminal work of the excellent Mlle Warcollier and her more scholarly associates in the Association des Amis de Saint-Jacques, does not constitute "modern myths". So this is just "exciting" revisionism for the sake of it.
The main result, I think, is that there were indeed very many pilgrims, they just did not go on long distance pilgrimage but on pilgrimage in their region,
You are refuting a claim that nobody made. Please reread post #50. (nature of GR65; starting point of Camino Frances).To claim that the Camino Francès is somehow an "invention" of the 20th Century simply does not hold water in the face of the evidence, of which this is just one example. This 1417 itinerary exactly follows the Camino in every detail, and it does not support this notion of "modern myths" based on "uncertain barely known historical facts"
You are refuting a claim that nobody made. Please reread post #50. (nature of GR65; starting point of Camino Frances).
So, to sum up...
A Camino is your unique experience; your story and, metaphorically speaking, does not really have a start or finish...
The link you posted simply mentions in passing that there was a pagan site at Le Puy. In general, it does not come as a surprise that there were pagan sites where there are Christian sites now. People lived there before and after. They had their expressions of their religions, the whole point of the early Christian missionary monks was to replace these religions by the Christian religion, that's why they spectacularly cut down sacred oaks, imposed a different meaning on sacred springs or wells, on sacred stones, etc.Perhaps one can consider that Le Puy en Velay was/is a pilgrimage site before the rise of Christianity (and Christian pilgrims). The Cathedral of Our Lady (Notre Dame) has remnants of a dolmen and a well.
How many medievalists specialists with PhDs on the Camino are out there?
Unless one has read her work, and can demonstrate that what she is saying is incorrct, all this is just a perfect example of ad verecundiam, no?
... and especially not that Péricard-Méa is looking for "just exciting revisionism for the sake of it".
Where in all this is there any indication that there were pilgrimages to these pagan sites, let alone long distance pilgrimages of the kind that is today understood as a "camino"?
Are we all agreed that there is no "full pilgrimage" nor prescribed starting point?
Thank you for the additional link - I didn't know it. I've watched only 5 minutes so far (of 45 in total). Elle a l'air tres sympa, and she doesn't even speak to0 fast for meThose of you woth some French may enjoy listening to presentations by Péricard-Méa to get a sense of what she puts forth.
That's good. It's a pity though they don't show the images that go along with her talk.Thank you for the additional link - I didn't know it. I've watched only 5 minutes so far (of 45 in total). Elle a l'air tres sympa, and she doesn't even speak to0 fast for me.
Yes, it would be great to view the images while listening to the recorded talk. There is an article with similar content in the online "revue": http://lodel.irevues.inist.fr/saintjacquesinfo/index.php?id=1334 . The article has a number of photos of the images in question.It's a pity though they don't show the images that go along with her talk.
Thank you. That is my understanding as well, although I cannot now remember the source of this snippet of information.Actually, the camino frances starts shortly before Puenta la Reina where the Navarra camino and the Aragones camino merge. Beats me why not more people start there ....
Actually, the camino frances starts shortly before Puenta la Reina where the Navarra camino and the Aragones camino merge. Beats me why not more people start there ....
Indigenous Europeans (range of Celtic tribes) inhabited France/Spain before the rise of the Roman Empire. These were oral cultures who understood how to live with Nature and make use of the electromagnetic frequencies of the Great Above (stars, moon, sun, celestial bodies) and the Great Below (telluric currents/electromagnetic currents from underground springs and streams).
Today there is an expression that is "vender gato por liebre", which means selling/passing a cat for an hare, or knowingly being dishonest, lying. It comes from the Middle ages when people would order hare for their meal and be served cat.Interestingly, the 1882 book mentions a Spanish proverb as an example for many other Spanish proverbs related to the Santiago pilgrimage: Camino Frances, venden gato por tes. Is this still known today? I think it means Camino Frances, where they sell cat as meat, at least that's how it is rendered in the book into French.
You are too fast for me and my poor SpanishAs for the word "tes", today it really means skin. For example, if ypu compliment someone on their "tes", you are complimenting them on their lovely facial skin. Also called "cutis". What it may have meant back in the day ... ?
That would make more sense, and would be in line with the current expression.You are too fast for me and my poor Spanishbut thank you for your explanations - love it. It seems the word was badly digitized (happens all the time), I've now seen a photocopied version and it says "res". Does this make more sense? They sell cat as beef on the Camino Frances ?
Why are "we" not driven to walk elsewhere? We as in those walking to Santiago in the last 20 years or so? Super low budet and relative infrastructure even back in the day. Why was Santiago put in the map? Some argue we owe this to Franco.As to Santiago, there's also the nagging question why mainly to Santiago, why are we not driven more strongly to walk to Rome, to Bari in Italy and further on to Jerusalem, to Cologne, to Tours, to all the hundreds of popular pilgrimage sites in the Middle Ages ... Tours with its relics of St Martin used to be the third most important Christian pilgrimage site, after Rome and Jerusalem and before the rise of Compostela.
Why are "we" not driven to walk elsewhere? We as in those walking to Santiago in the last 20 years or so? Super low budet and relative infrastructure even back in the day. Why was Santiago put in the map? Some argue we owe this to Franco.
Worth pointing out perhaps, that dolmens are usually associated with megalithic or more generally neolithic peoples
Neither can I! I read stuff but rarely make a note of it, and very soon afterwards, I don't remember whether it was online or in a book or where the book is.That is my understanding as well, although I cannot now remember the source of this snippet of information.
Today there is an expressionthat is "vender gato por liebre", which means selling/passing a cat for an heir, or knowingly being dishonnest, lying. It comes from the Middle ages when people would order heir for theor meal and be served cat.
As for the word "tes", today it really means skin. For example, if ypu compliment someone on their "tes", you are complimenting them on their lovely facial skin. Also called "cutis". What it may have meant back in the day ... ?
Rabbit can only be sold her at home complete with head, so cats cannot be sold instead...It explains why at mediaeval banquets in England, hares - lepus europaeus (not heirs) were served complete with their heads.
Not really -- from a genuine historical perspective, the Camino starts and ends at the altar of your home parish church ; Santiago is the halfway point. Starting "at your own front door" is just the more secular version of this, though in practice it would also have been the material starting point of a mediaeval Camino too.
This is exactly right! At least for those of us in the U.K. there are recognised "ports of departure"!
Plymouth claims to have been one of only two ports licensed for pilgrims in mediaeval times.
Sounds inaccurate, as at the very least St Michaels Mount and Dover (on from the Canterbury Way) were also major ports of embarkation.
Perhaps only two ports were licensed for the specifically maritime pilgrimage though -- certainly the crossing from St Michaels Mount led fairly exclusively to the Mont Saint Michel in Normandy, and was intended for foot pilgrims, not sailing ones.
Our local maritime pilgrimage (unfrequented for centuries) has several stops at shrines along the coast, and goes to Saintes Maries-lès-Mer, from where it goes up to join the Piémont and Arles routes onwards to Compostela.
I'm coming back to this because it is such a good example. So Wikipedia (English version) says indeed that the chapel was "built in 969 on a volcanic plug" and that "it was built to celebrate the return from the pilgrimage of Saint James". Wikipedia articles do not always contain facts, of course, but they are a good indicator of what is commonly believed about a topic. There is even a reference underneath the article which gives it an air of credibility.After returning, Godescalc, the great fan of St Jacques, built a rather flamboyant shrine to commemorate the trip and promote the pilgrimage
This member of the Le Puy clergy has a name, it is Truannus. He is the founder of the chapel on the rock in Le Puy, not bishop Gotescalc who was asked for and gave his permission to the project and who also led the festivities for the dedication/inauguration of this new place of worship.a member of the clergy of Le Puy Cathedral vowed to built a chapel on the rock
This has moved a bit away from the "full camino" topic but it is a good example of what we are led to believe to be authentic history although it is devoid of all facts, and there are either no sources to be found or, as in this example, there are authentic sources that prove it wrong.
what we are led to believe to be authentic history although it is devoid of all facts, and there are either no sources to be found or, as in this example, there are authentic sources that prove it wrong.
And I was really surprised when I read today that the Archbishop of Santiago, Monseñor Julián Barrio, recently opened a Jubilee Year in Santiago de Compostela in honour of this Saint, complete with the possibility of obtaining a plenary indulgence between now and August 2018!
Isn't San Roque always shown with his dog?The similarity in imagery with Santiago is very confusingHere is a link that will explain a little more of the story and what the plenary indulgence actually involves:
http://es.gaudiumpress.org/content/...o-Jubilar-de-San-Roque--patrono-de-peregrinos
Not always but most images do show it. Sometimes it has just got lostIsn't San Roque always shown with his dog?
That's a nice map. Is it possible to get a paper copy somewhere?I've been looking for a home for this map, and I think it's appropriate to just put it here.
This is the Camino :
Try asking at https://www.chemins-compostelle.com/notre-quipeThat's a nice map. Is it possible to get a paper copy somewhere?
Yes, the first time she went was by horse with her children, people telling her she was a terrible mother. That is when she became interested in Santiago. Then she went back on her own to learn about the route, history and traditions.
Perhaps we can open a different thread and I can summarise the content.she explains the four phases of the myth, the last one being us, "decathlon pilgrim in search for spirituality and togetherness".
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