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Yes! I'll send you a PM @Kathar1na ...@Viranani , did you live on Big Island ???
About half defied the signs saying the Napoleon Route was closed. Of course, neither route had views of anything but the snow! Was the risk worth it? An Italian on the Valcarlos route collapsed and was helped by two Germans. Had he chosen the Napoleon the outcome could have been worse.
Where I live, there is a legal obligation that as a pedestrian you must not cross the road at a traffic light if the light is on red for you. Do people stick to this rule all the time? No, they sometimes cross and nothing happens, no cars to be seen, no accident, no fine. However, most people will not do this if children are also waiting at the light, although it would be safe for them to do so. This is how I view the winter ban on the Route Napoleon: if you walk up there despite the ban, blog or post about it, advocate that, really, it's not so dangerous after all if yada yada yada, you are setting a not so great example for others. Not your problem but theirs? Well, that's where opinions diverge ....
True. Many experienced mountain walkers would probably have had no major difficulty in following the route in the conditions which these men faced. Sadly there is a very specific problem of this one very high-profile path. Its fame and mystique attracts people who are very unprepared and so inexperienced that they simply do not understand the nature of the dangers : people who do not even know that they don't know what they do not know....Same should apply to closures on camino; the sign is a warning that there are hazards and if you don't know enough about the hazard then you should not go.
True. Many experienced mountain walkers would probably have had no major difficulty in following the route in the conditions which these men faced. Sadly there is a very specific problem of this one very high-profile path. Its fame and mystique attracts people who are very unprepared and so inexperienced that they simply do not understand the nature of the dangers : people who do not even know that they don't know what they do not know....
Environment of the person arriving @ any location worldwide determines knowledge of the location they find their feet. Most travelers research before they set off.This is a good example. The red light is intended to control vehicle traffic. As a pedestrian, to not cross means significant increase in walking/waiting time ... often when there is no traffic to control ... so there are times when it is appropriate to break the 'rules'. However, any person of sense knows to at least look each way before crossing the street on a red light.
Same should apply to closures on camino; the sign is a warning that there are hazards and if you don't know enough about the hazard then you should not go.
Environment of the person arriving @ any location worldwide determines knowledge of the location they find their feet. Most travelers research before they set off.
Yet both in Canada & in Montana locals still ski, snowshoe, snowmobile into the backcountry in winter. We still loose people to avalanche & elements. They know when they set off what the dangers are. Would a city person with no experience even know where to start getting that education in a warm tropical environment? We are critical of people we have no background on. Yet the people arriving are truly just living, not curled in fear afraid to leave their comfort zone. Maybe we do what we can to educate but let's try to give them the credit of living.
Keith
This from another thread, falcon's experience recently, which is a bit sobering. It's not just a few people ignoring those signs, from the sound of it:
I'd be curious to know the ages and genders of the defiers...
My first thought is "Yeah, but..."Would a city person with no experience even know where to start getting that education in a warm tropical environment?
True enough, Keith. At the same time one can fully live while still respecting the law. That's another thing altogether.Yet the people arriving are truly just living, not curled in fear afraid to leave their comfort zone. Maybe we do what we can to educate but let's try to give them the credit of living.
Lol yes there are laws we must live under, & like this one in the form of fines. Nature is much more harsh. This is such a tough topic to try to have an answer for, I just don't think there is one except each of us must take responsability for ourselves, yet this points out how those we care about follow to the end. I received an email from one of this forums Canadian residents north of me informing me of 2 Americans lost under an avalanche & a Canadian killed skiing. This certainly is not just a Camino problem. So if anyone wants to make a true difference move to the closest village purchase a sled (snowmobile) & patrol.@Thorley... Hahahaha....
My first thought is "Yeah, but..."
It's very true that when you grow up in the tropics (as I did) there's no way anyone can explain the experience of cold. (Until I was 18 cold was 20degrees C.--then I went to Montreal for University. Let's just say it was a shock.)
Likewise, someone who's lived in a city all their life is going to be clueless about the real experience of being in nature.
So being charitable, perhaps these 2 were from Rio and had no idea what they were getting into.
Nonetheless...No is NO.
And surely the people @falcon269 was talking about (quote in Post #122) don't all fit into that category.
True enough, Keith. At the same time one can fully live while still respecting the law. That's another thing altogether.
Lots of my friends would call "spade for a spade" a racist connotation. I still don't believe this kind of bravado is anything but stupidity.
Err... Winter in Korea? Seoul? I can assure you they know all about COLD lolI could make a couple of other observations in that the people who are getting into trouble are from places such as Brazil and Korea where there is not much opportunity for exposure to harsh winter conditions.
Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
When you posted about the new vehicle acquired for the local rescue teams a few days ago, I was tempted to remark that it had come just in time as it is in weather conditions like now, in particular in March, when spring is about to arrive in the valleys, that people who are ignorant about the area, the climate, the conditions of the path at higher altitude and their physical capabilities, believe that they alone are exempt from warnings, relevant information and outright bans of crossing at this pass at this time of the year.
PS. For the uninitiated: the route Napoleon is closed every year until at least 31 March. You are not allowed to walk into Spain on this path.
Is the word "IDIOTS" allowed on the Forum without offending certain people who can not read or follow simple rules and signage. Guess what, closed means: closed.
This is a good example. The red light is intended to control vehicle traffic. As a pedestrian, to not cross means significant increase in walking/waiting time ... often when there is no traffic to control ... so there are times when it is appropriate to break the 'rules'. However, any person of sense knows to at least look each way before crossing the street on a red light.
Applies for Norway as well. Has never been related to "rascimn" at all. Unknown.How the meanings of words and phrases can evolve with time, place and intent is always a fascinating subject. Having lived in various parts of the USA south almost all of my 60+ years, I have never heard the word spade used in a racial slur though I have heard many others. Calling "a spade a spade" has been in use for hundreds of years, the racial slur is worded differently and is more recent. I would not allow the existence of the racial slur prevent my use of the phrase "call a spade a spade" provided that the context and my intent were appropriate and clear. To do otherwise removes some of the richness of language.
Another example of the lackings in the English "language" compared to European & other old sivilications...For starters, not only is this slur word largely unknown outside the US, the association between the tool (spade) and the card category or colour (spades) does not work in many languages: it's pique vs bêche, Pik vs Spaten, pique vs pala/laya to just name French, German and Spanish.
Your comment brought to me the memory of a signpost I saw in the Munich jakobsweg, as you reach the Starnberg village. Upon my very rudimentary German, it advises to pedestrians:
"Only with green light! Give a good example to children! "
It is in a road with very scarce traffic, so jaywalking was quite tempting.
View attachment 32547
Err... Winter in Korea? Seoul? I can assure you they know all about COLD lol
Looks like both non-derogatory versions of spade go back to Proto-Indo-European (PIE): http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spade@alexwalker was joking, of course. So, has anyone ever played cards with a Spanish set of playing cards? No spades of any colour to be seen but, instead, swords. Similar to Italian sets. Swords are called espadas in Spanish and spade in Italian. That's apparently (see OED) where the English spades come from, the ones that are used for playing and not digging. In the thread is back in Spain, yippee.
Well... Is English a language? (tongue in cheek here). Or is it a collection of words from other languages? Mostly. First, consider all Greek words (in English, and all languages). English is very much a collection of Greek, Spanish and old Germanic/Nordic words. Ex.: York=Jorvik (from Norwegian Vikings, landing there) =Bay of Earth. New York= Neue (German) Jorvik.I would never say that English or any other language is "lacking" compared to another. I would say for sure that some users of English are linguistically lazy.
Another example of the lackings in the English "language" compared to European & other old sivilications...Quote from alexwalker
It seems to be a common enough practice of invaders to talk up the benefits they brought to the conquered by claiming how uncivilised the lands being invaded were! And of course victors, not the vanquished, write the histories.When the Romans arrived in Old England they were met by tribes of unsivilised savages.
I do not agree. It is called ignoring all sensible warnings. Breaking the rules/signs. Not understanding. Egoists. Ignorants. No point in wrapping it.There are two sides to every story and it is worth hearing "the other side". Instead of the name called the two pilgrims about whom this thread was posted, it could be called an error in judgement. Mistake made, lesson learned.
Your comment brought to me the memory of a signpost I saw in the Munich jakobsweg, as you reach the Starnberg village. Upon my very rudimentary German, it advises to pedestrians: "Only with green light! Give a good example to children! "
.It seems to be a common enough practice of invaders to talk up the benefits they brought to the conquered by claiming how uncivilised the lands being invaded were! And of course victors, not the vanquished, write the histories.
You are correct, that there appears to be a movement to re-write history from the viewpoint of the losers, and there might be some merit in that. I am not a historian by any means, nor widely enough read in these alternative views to determine whether they are just artful revisionist polemic or genuine attempts to develop a more understanding narrative of the times they describe. I know that in Australia, there appears to be some of the latter emerging recently as people realise how important it is and will continue to be to capture what has been previously been an oral tradition.That used to be true, but not anymore. Since the appearance of the "history from below" in the mid of last century, we have in books predominantly the point of view of the conquered, the oppressed and the disenfranchised, to a degree that to consider seriously the ideas and representations of the formerly privileged is currently a kind of a daring non-conformism. Yes, culture (and rules) can be quite odd things.
I hope these people are made to pay the FULL cost of their rescue. It is more expensive than most people realize to maintain and operate a rescue service like this, not even including the risks run by the people doing the rescue. In my younger days I was a backcountry ranger for the National Park Service in the USA and based upon this experience I understand there are young (usually men) who think they are superman and can do what nobody else can. Then the professionals and the local people have to bail them out. I doubt it was lack of information in this case. Look at that sign and the field of snow behind. Any competent adult would have realized this was suitable only for well equipped winter mountaineering, if that, not a walk between beds on the Camino. Last year I crossed from SJPP into Spain in March, via Valcarlos. It is the only reasonable route at this time of year.
Is the word "IDIOTS" allowed on the Forum without offending certain people who can not read or follow simple rules and signage. Guess what, closed means: closed.
Thank you for the article link. Very informative! My companions and I will be on Frances on April 20th and checking the weather and making sure the route is open will be paramount!Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
What does APOC stand for please sorry foe being so stupidTwo Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
What does APOC stand for please sorry foe being so stupid
We probably use abbreviations and anagrams too often.
I'm walking the Camino now and I met someone last week who came via Napolean and bragging about it. It is just hard to root for people like this. I wonder why I struggle to be non-judgmental.
Hi Katharina,I commented on "no one told us that the road was closed" by saying I don't think there are official closures or offcial announcements about closures other than during Nov-Mar.
As often, I used a quote from a previous message to continue a general line of conversation.
In my opinion the ideal solution would be for the powers that do make the decision to close the road to ring Hunto and Orisson to inform staff who would in turn inform pilgrims. This would be less work, and less costly than medically evacuting injured pilgrims like the woman in our quota of pilgrims who was blown over by the wind and broke her clavicle.Whoever pronounces it closed, whether local administration or upon private / volunteer initiative, I wonder, for the future, whether this information could not also be provided in other ways than orally in SJPP and perhaps on a sign in town (such as the one on that fence where the two paths split). There may not be WiFi at Orisson but there is a 3G net, even further up the path, and while you may not have been able to access such information, others could have been able to do so and inform everyone. And not only on the day itself but earlier, if available, so that people can plan ahead. It's just an idea.
It's very hard to make a comment without having the complete story but I've seen trekkers take needless risks for reasons that range from complete inexperience and ignorance to the exuberance and bravado of youth. Perhaps it started as a beautiful and clear sunny day and they thought, 'let's give it a go'. And being completely honest have on one or two occasions found myself in scary situations where all I could say was, 'Tony, this is really dumb'. Hopefully with a lot more experience and the wisdom of age I've not only survived so far (touch wood) but also now realise that there is always another day and unnecessary risks simply aren't worth it.Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
It's very hard to make a comment without having the complete story but I've seen trekkers take needless risks for reasons that range from complete inexperience and ignorance to the exuberance and bravado of youth. Perhaps it started as a beautiful and clear sunny day and they thought, 'let's give it a go'. And being completely honest have on one or two occasions found myself in scary situations where all I could say was, 'Tony, this is really dumb'. Hopefully with a lot more experience and the wisdom of age I've not only survived so far (touch wood) but also now realise that there is always another day and unnecessary risks simply aren't worth it.
However, a salutary tale. About 10 years ago I completed the Tour Mont Blanc. The TMB is a pretty demanding trek and at many points over 3,000 metres. But during summer all the trail is open and except for occasional rain squall and electrical storm is pretty safe. It was mid-August and I was walking from France into Italy and the day started sunny and bright. By 1pm I was in the middle of a snowstorm and a complete whiteout. Map and compass saved the day and got me to the nearest refugio where scores of local day walkers were arriving, wearing shorts and T shirts and in various states of hypothermia - suffering from asthmatic attacks to being unconscious with uncontrollable shaking. Fortunately I had the right kit but the message is clear, Mother Nature can be very unforgiving at any time of the year. If the weather turns dirty and you feel uncertain of whether or not to continue, turn around and go back down the hill. The Route Napoleon isn't as remote as the French/Italian Alps so returning shouldn't be too hard provided you don't leave it too late!. There's always tomorrow. Plus, share the news on the way down with all whom you pass, it may just save a tragedy.
Happy trails (and I do mean this, a little common sense will make for a wonderful and safe trek and after all, the Camino isn't a race to the finish line!)
Good point Thornley. Yes, I face the unknown as well this coming May/June. I really look forward to the challenge but even after 20 years of trekking, that first step provides a feeling that's a cross between trepidation and a case of the butterflies. It's wonderful and 10 minutes later I wouldn't want to be anywhere else in the world. Thanks for wishing me luck and good luck to all the other Camino novices. TA great summary Tony.
I hope the future pilgrims realise you were** twice ** as height as the "So Called" Napoleon path.
Good luck this year.
Are fines actually levied for ignoring these rules or are they more of an unenforced threat?
Its not just Jan-March/Nov-Dec that its unsafe ,when back in July 2015 just climbing up and the weather started to close in with heavy low cloud, cold and slight rain, lower back down while leaving St Jean it was boiling hot so be ready.Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
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