- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Frances 2007,
Via Francigena Italy, 2008,
Jakobsweg Austria 2010,
Camino Frances 2011,
Le Puy to Lourdes 2012,
Via de la Plata 2013,
Future:
Ökumenischer (Via Regia), Germany,
Lycian Way, Turkey
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That's correct - would we do it all ?In an eyeblink!
Well, I wouldn't miss the internet at all, but I might miss some of my friends who quite like it.
[Edit~and I don't think Jirit was meaning would we do it to make a point, just would we do it at all? Right, Jirit--or am I missing something?]
I'm puzzling a little over what hypothetical scenario @jirit has in mind. Why would it be impossible to access the internet while walking the camino? That might have a big effect on my answer. Just three admittedly unlikely scenarios from the top of my head:
(A) Spain has become an isolationist totalitarian regime like North Korea and cut itself off from the world?: then I probably don't want to go there.
(B) There has been some sort of global apocalypse and the internet has ceased to exist?: then I probably have more pressing concerns and urgent priorities than walking across Spain for a month.
(C) The Camino is now controlled and regulated by an omnipotent central authority which vets all potential pilgrims and requires them to make a quasi-monastic vow of digital abstinence before granting them a credencial?: being essentially bloody-minded I'd object to that just as a matter of principle.
With slight apologies for the reductio ad absurdum I think there are trace elements of (C) behind the OP's question. I also think that it relates a little uncomfortably to the never-ending argument about what makes a "real pilgrim". I fear that many of us - and I include myself amongst them - share a collective nostalgia for a romantic vision of the Camino and pilgrimage which probably never existed. My worry is that such a fantasy could very easily drift towards a prescriptive orthodoxy. Is it intrinsically morally and spiritually superior to walk the caminos "unplugged"? I am not convinced that is true. Like it or not the internet and modern technology are facts. Unless the world changes in very troublesome ways then they are here to stay. How we deal with our own dependence on them is at heart a personal question. I hope it does not colour our perceptions of others' choices too deeply.
And don't we all love the Malthusian hypotheses of impending doom.Not necessarily hypothetical: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ch-limit-just-eight-years-warn-engineers.html
Non-UK residents may not be aware that the Daily Mail is the most reliable source of factual information available
Exactly what I was puzzling over but couldn't quite express!I'm puzzling a little over what hypothetical scenario @jirit has in mind. Why would it be impossible to access the internet while walking the camino? That might have a big effect on my answer. Just three admittedly unlikely scenarios from the top of my head:
(A) Spain has become an isolationist totalitarian regime like North Korea and cut itself off from the world?: then I probably don't want to go there.
(B) There has been some sort of global apocalypse and the internet has ceased to exist?: then I probably have more pressing concerns and urgent priorities than walking across Spain for a month.
(C) The Camino is now controlled and regulated by an omnipotent central authority which vets all potential pilgrims and requires them to make a quasi-monastic vow of digital abstinence before granting them a credencial?: being essentially bloody-minded I'd object to that just as a matter of principle.
With slight apologies for the reductio ad absurdum I think there are trace elements of (C) behind the OP's question. I also think that it relates a little uncomfortably to the never-ending argument about what makes a "real pilgrim". I fear that many of us - and I include myself amongst them - share a collective nostalgia for a romantic vision of the Camino and pilgrimage which probably never existed. My worry is that such a fantasy could very easily drift towards a prescriptive orthodoxy. Is it intrinsically morally and spiritually superior to walk the caminos "unplugged"? I am not convinced that is true. Like it or not the internet and modern technology are facts. Unless the world changes in very troublesome ways then they are here to stay. How we deal with our own dependence on them is at heart a personal question. I hope it does not colour our perceptions of others' choices too deeply.
Hmm. I think it just as often works the other way - nontechies "judging" the experience of the techies and the quality of their relationships. Perhaps implicit in some of the current threads.But don't EVEN suggest this in certain circles, or you will be accused of the worst crime in the world: "judging." The people doing MY CAMINO cannot stomach anyone not fully wired.
Exactly what I was puzzling over but couldn't quite express!
Hmm. I think it just as often works the other way - nontechies "judging" the experience of the techies and the quality of their relationships. Perhaps implicit in some of the current threads.
Ha! Here I am, the defender of connectedness, who said she didn't want to go anywhere without her smartphone!
It is an odd hypothetical question. One might ask "Would you do X, if you couldn't connect to the internet?" or "Would you walk the camino if you couldn't take a poncho?"
The absence of internet would not be a deciding factor for me. I did many things happily before the internet was invented and would do so in the future too if it were eliminated. However, I have no interest in eschewing the internet on a point of principle, as I enjoy the benefits it brings.
None of the answer choices is quite right for me. I would say "Willing to do so if it weren't available." I would not expect to be panicking.
I expect that the reason is what has been given - those people have responsibilities that don't permit them to be incommunicado for that period of time.And I'd love to hear from whomever voted for number 4. Not so we could gang up and try to change their mind, but I'm genuinely interested to know the reason behind the vote....
And I'd love to hear from whomever voted for number 4. Not so we could gang up and try to change their mind, but I'm genuinely interested to know the reason behind the vote....
Not necessarily hypothetical: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ch-limit-just-eight-years-warn-engineers.html
Non-UK residents may not be aware that the Daily Mail is the most reliable source of factual information available
And don't we all love the Malthusian hypotheses of impending doom.
And I'd love to hear from whomever voted for number 4
And we have been doomed ever since the automobile replaced the buggy whip.Doomed! DOOMED! We're all doomed!
I never felt lost because I had Google Maps with me, and could always find my way to where I wanted to go. Therefore I felt free to just wander, because I could always find my way back.
What about that pesky wheel?And we have been doomed ever since the automobile replaced the buggy whip.
In an eyeblink!
I trust after editing my original question you are no longer puzzled. For the record I am a techie and have been for some time.
Well Jirit,
Here's the question you left out:
How many carrying an iPhone, pre-booking albergue or hostal accommodation to get a bed, and plugging into the internet, see it as wrong, or beneath contempt, for others to use those other products of modern technology, ie the taxis, buses, cars and trains to do their Caminos their own particular way?
De colores
Bogong(who has to confess, at age 69,using a very basic mobile phone and occasional albergue internet to keep contact with a very worried wife, and adult kids who had seriously explored drawing on their mortgages to travel over to bring my corpse home)
The basic question (and the elephant in the living room) seems not about the external why there is no internet in this hypothetical Camino--that's actually irrelevant. But how do we relate to it: do we use it for practical reasons or are we actually addicted to it?My question has nothing to do with the above 3 suggestions, nor anything to do with judgement about what is right or wrong or superior with respect to being a pilgrim.
I voted for number 4. Now that the internet and smart phones are here there is no going back for me.
Aside from using my phone to keeping in touch with friends and family, these are a few of the other reasons I need my phone:
Having a phone lets me make room reservations easily when I go through the bigger cities I want to stay at for more than one night. I hate planning ahead. So I'm often looking at my options and booking my room when I am arriving in town.
After booking these rooms online I need a way to pay my credit card bill.
I speak very minimal Spanish. Google translate works pretty well for Spanish-English.
I speak Korean, though not fluently. All my Korean study is done on my phone. Podcasts, chatting with friends in Korean, flashcards, reading.
I have some occasional work related things I must respond to.
Map My Run app to track my walking on the Camino.
Weather app to check the weather.
Kindle app for reading.
Replying to posts like this while I lay in bed in Salamanca.
I have traveled before smart phones. But at this point there is no way I would want to go back to that.
I'm not so sure, because it's more nuanced than that. And there's a big difference between 'judging' in the pejorative sense and judgement in the sense of discernment. The 1st is never useful, while the second is essential.nontechies "judging" the experience of the techies and the quality of their relationships. Perhaps implicit in some of the current threads.
I learnt two important things.
I'm not that important.
Being dead is ok
It was one of a few questions and thoughts that crossed my mind, but I decided to start with the question I asked.
I completely agree with this. I hate discussions of how we shouldn't be judgemental, probably because I have often been accused of it, often correctly. However, I was bothered by something you said on a different thread, which I'll quote over here:And there's a big difference between 'judging' in the pejorative sense and judgement in the sense of discernment. The 1st is never useful, while the second is essential.
Well, no one said they had to disappear off the radar. They will all be having meaningful relationships with each other in the line-up at the post office or telephone booth.I find it impossible to believe that the 72% who voted No1 are ALL single people with no family who might worry about them while they disappear off the radar for a month. Come on folks!
I'm still trying to figure out who the other 3 realists are.
I am now even more perplexed by what the question really is. The presence of a telephone service implies to me that some form of internet could be accessed. Using that communications channel for a voice conversation is just one of the available options.Well, no one said they had to disappear off the radar. They will all be having meaningful relationships with each other in the line-up at the post office or telephone booth.
I was just about to reply to this, Paul, so thank you for that clarification.I find it impossible to believe that the 72% who voted No1 are ALL single people with no family who might worry about them while they disappear off the radar for a month. Come on folks
Not really, as you correctly surmise. What makes me feel sad is not so much about the relationship but the fact that people can sit together but not be together because they're so into another world that comes through the internet. Of course this might be a temporary aberration and who knows what the rest of their lives are like?That you should feel sad, was perplexing. You must be thinking their experience is inferior to some standard.
So, @Viranani , next spring on some obscure route!
I find it impossible to believe that the 72% who voted No1 are ALL single people with no family who might worry about them while they disappear off the radar for a month. Come on folks!.
And let me tell you how much easier that keeping in touch is using an asynchronous (internet) technique like email, chat or FB when your family is in Australia and there are major time zone differences.You can keep in touch with family by...phone. No need for Internet connection?
Perhaps I have never been under the same pressure from the internet. Even before I retired, I managed to avoid having a work phone so I've mostly used it for my own pleasure and convenience. This forum is my biggest vice, at least in regards to the internet.One thing I find interesting is that several people (here and in the other thread running right now about this) have mentioned the relief they feel when they give some space from the internet.
I was thinking March-April, maybe starting in the south. However, it is always possible that a family get-together (elsewhere) will be organized, and that would take precedence.April? May-June? I don't know when or where yet! I hope to carve out a whole month. You??
All the more reason to go off the grid........and there are major time zone differences.
As technology becomes nearly universal in use, reasonable assumptions are made about the presence of that technology.
Pretty much every pilgrim I have seen in the last two weeks has a smartphone with them.
Not sure this is ecen worthy of discussion? Wifi is available everywhere.
It's 2016 and the world is moving on.
Fair point! (I should have remembered being frequently woken up at 3am when living in N-Z by calls from the UK ...)And let me tell you how much easier that keeping in touch is using an asynchronous (internet) technique like email, chat or FB when your family is in Australia and there are major time zone differences.
Yes and yes.Ok, we all agree the Internet is more convenient?
BUT I still stick with my answer to the OP's question regarding walking the Camino without Internet.
Ok, we all agree the Internet is more convenient?
You bet, Claire! April? May-June? I don't know when or where yet! I hope to carve out a whole month. You??
Not sure this is ecen worthy of discussion? Wifi is available everywhere.
It's 2016 and the world is moving on.
All the more reason to be using it from my perspective. It's just another tool in one's toolset. It's not the internet that is the issue to me, but whether I need or want to do the things that it might allow me to do.All the more reason to go off the grid.
@Terrri:A question that came to mind was would we walk the camino if we didn't have the ability to research it on the internet?
Indeed.There are still places in the world where this technology is of no interest to some of the inhabitants.
This seems a rather narrow view. Are you suggesting that benefits of the technological advances developed countries enjoy should be denied to people who currently don't have them?Indeed.
Long may that continue.
@Viranani:Indeed.
Long may that continue.
Yes, I know this from my own experience, Albertagirl. I live much of my life in such a place so know the benefits very well, and they can be lifesaving. But it's a knife that cuts both ways. Because not all that comes with such technology is good. The cost--individually and culturally--can be high.@Viranani:
One of the major improvements in the lives of women in developing countries has come about through the use of cell phones. This has made it possible for a woman to rent telephone use to neighbours who have never had access before. Taking produce and animal products to market can be better scheduled and improve profits. Combined with small loans to women, this has improved the lives of many women and children coming from backgrounds of extreme poverty.
I have only travelled to six of the seven continents so far, and still have many countries to see, but I keep trying to see more of this world.Doug, we probably see the world differently, so I don't want to argue.
But I will just say that I don't think this technology is necessarily an 'advance.' And if you haven't experienced such wonderful places as @jaws101 describes, and the people and cultures in them, I can't explain. Except to say that in my (extensive) experience they're a lot less neurotic--and yes, happier--than we are. In spite of immense difficulties...that I and many others do as much as we can to mitigate.
And that's what's happening, Doug. We're just talking here about the Camino.My view is that perhaps we should let those who might benefit from lower infant mortality, improved maternal health or any of the other six millennium development goals decide what technologies to implement.
@Viranani:Yes, I know this from my own experience, Albertagirl. I live much of my life in such a place so know the benefits very well, and they can be lifesaving. But it's a knife that cuts both ways. Because not all that comes with such technology is good. The cost--individually and culturally--can be high.
If I were to go into the details, which I could at great length, we'd be way off topic and straying into politics. So I won't. PM me if you want and we can continue there...happy to do so!
Wishing you a wonderful walk, with or without the internet!
I'm sorry, but if I recall it accurately, your comment was a response to this: "a fifteen year old Peruvian boy, didn't know how to use a phone to take a photo for us! There are still places in the world where this technology is of no interest to some of the inhabitants." and you suggested "Long may that continue."And that's what's happening, Doug. We're just talking here about the Camino.
I'm sorry, but if I recall it accurately, your comment was a response to this: "a fifteen year old Peruvian boy, didn't know how to use a phone to take a photo for us! There are still places in the world where this technology is of no interest to some of the inhabitants." and you suggested "Long may that continue."
That doesn't appear to me to be talking about the Camino.
Indeed, Albertagirl. We agree entirely--that's what I said.@Viranani:
It seems to me that the purpose of this thread is to discuss "the cost--individually and culturally" of the use of internet technology. We decide for ourselves what technology we wish to use and in what contexts. Persons living in developing economies can decide for themselves on their use of such technology.
Jaws101 said something, I agreed...and then an argument ensued.jaws 101 and yourself introduced this subject in posts 73 and 74.
adult kids who had seriously explored drawing on their mortgages to travel over to bring my corpse home)
Not really. I was merely pointing out that you had taken the thread off-topic and were trying to limit the discussion on that. It appeared to me the rhetorical equivalent of taking your ball away from the playground!My comment to Doug was an attempt to bring the thread back on track, but he seems to still want to talk about something that's actually tangential to the thread.
I once wandered about the world for 6 months without being contacted by family or friends.
They were unable to contact me.
On my sudden and unexpected re-appearance everyone was pleased, if not overjoyed, to see and talk to me.
It seemed to me that I had disappeared from their existence.
Out of memory.
I had been among their dead.
I learnt two important things.
I'm not that important.
Being dead is ok.
Regards
Gerard
This is one of Gerard's all-time best lines. Almost a book title.Best of all I really enjoyed Gerard's two lessons of life — I am not that important and being dead is okay.
This got lost in the fray, Bradypus...I appreciate the suggestion!And. Even if I were to run out of ways to Santiago...I tend to walk in March.A suggestion - just because I loved it. Sundsvall to Trondheim along the St Olavsleden in May. About 580km. I walked for 17 days and met precisely 3 other pilgrims (and two of those were a couple). And you are out of mobile phone reach for part of the way too if that really appeals to you.
This got lost in the fray, Bradypus...I appreciate the suggestion!And. Even if I were to run out of ways to Santiago...I tend to walk in March.
Brrrrr.
Thanks, Bradypus...a nice wish for all of us!Hope you enjoy sunshine and warmth wherever you go!
And you Jirit, would you?
I am sure the pilgrims of 900 years ago used all available tools at the time.
The internet is just another tool.
Im a BIG supporter of No technology on the camino!
vlebe, that has been my experience as well--which is why I brought up the subject here:Last time I walked the Camino Frances in 2013, I have to be honest that I felt a bit depressed seeing pilgrims anxious to get to the albergues to connect their phones and tablets... It was a sad picture to see those groups of pilgrims, most of them with their faces buried in their phones and tablets...
Im a BIG supporter of No technology on the camino! ...........................
I, myself, will be starting another camino in november. At this time I`ll bring with me a small PC computer as during the 40 days I plan to be "off" my office, I plan to at least 15 of those days to work a little bit from the ALbergues during the evenings. Internet made it possible for me to be once again part of the camino, so... Hands down technology! .............................
Last time I walked the Camino Frances in 2013, I have to be honest that I felt a bit depressed seeing pilgrims anxious to get to the albergues to connect their phones and tablets...
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