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Try not to get worried
Try not to turn on to
Problems that upset you
oh Don't you know
Everything's alright
Yes everything's fine
And we want you to sleep well tonight
Let the world turn without you tonight
If we try
We'll get by
So forget all about us tonight
Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.
It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.
[ducking and running]
Moderators - Feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate!
Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.
Gee, only if we let it. I wouldn't give the forum up (or the Camino) as a lost cause yet!But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
(...) so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
I walk the Camino francés in the Summer, when it is supposedly sooooo overcrowded. No. It isn't so and it isn't ruined. Different maybe to what may have been your experience but still a blessing to walk it.
Tis the time of the year when we old grumps finally wake up after the "silly season" of impossible questions that wonderful folks like Mark Lee spend their preci0us time answering to deaf pilgrims. It's summer and the Camino bears are coming out of hibernation. We can ignore the silly questions and talk about the seriousness of our quest on the Camino.
Totally agree with your post here...definitely time to ease off and, maybe, think a little longer before we actually press the 'enter button' before we post.Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week - about graffiti, snoring, touching snorers, thoughtless trespassers, praying for hell, blasting and punching offenders! Those are all words in the top three trending threads as I write.
It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.
[ducking and running]
Moderators - Feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate!
My opinion is there are only a certain amount of people that will fly to Spain to walk anywhere from a 100 to 500 miles.I quite enjoyed the snoring, graffiti and trespassing beefs. Especially that the snoring one went off on a tangent about parrots, and then came back on track again.
But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
Just some practical advice.Says the one you just told the guy to let go of 6 years of expectations, get on a bus and pick a different route?
i think when things get crowded that kind of thing happens, i am on the camino norte' everything peaceful and happy. last nite a 16 bed albergue with 1 other quiet person. awwwh very nice. the birds are chirping i have the easiest day ahead 20kClare, I have noticed that the forum gets more like Facebook every day. More "stir 'em up so we can argue" and a lack of verbal filters. This post may be inappropriate. Just my opinion.
yep, i think your right.I quite enjoyed the snoring, graffiti and trespassing beefs. Especially that the snoring one went off on a tangent about parrots, and then came back on track again.
But just as overcrowding causes deterioration of social behaviour in everyday life, so possibly may the Camino be becoming so overcrowded that it is becoming ruined, and the forum going to hell with it?
As a moderator I am concerned about the lack of tolerance lately. Politeness, comradeship and tolerance were things that used to make moderating this forum so easy. I and the other mods find ourselves with much more work now than we used to have.
I hope it is just a temporary phenomenon.
We are all capitalists at heart.
Johnnie - No doubt Ivar and the other moderators will have read your post and we will see if we can do better.
William
" we are all capitalists at heart "Not me @Jersey, I have always felt that socialism, sharing and trying to live more simply so that others might simply live are far better creeds and more in tune with the sprit of what happens on/is the camino.
I think you strike a very good balance.All we can do is monitor and keep things as pleasant as we can without over moderating.
Exactly. I didn't think there were any blatant infractions that needed to be reported. Rather, people were using the forum to vent excessive anger at people mainly off the forum!Whilst I agree Wayfarer it seems to me that the point of C clearly's original post is more about the tone or our posts rather than the content. Although posts are within the rules often the tone of the language does not reflect the spirit of politeness, comradeship and tolerance to which William referred. How do we promote that? I suppose by having discussions like these.
Ladybug, fear not, C Clearly's post was not pointing at you but was refering to a series of posts from a number of people. Although you did make an entrance in the Forum with a bang!I am very, very sorry that I was being aggressive on the snoring post the other day. It is just not me to behave that way. I know it is not an exuse, but I was in a very bad state after recieving some horrible news that day.
So please, would you stop writing about me now?
I certainly wasn't writing particularly about you. (In fact, I thought you made a good point, although maybe a bit stronger than you intended.So please, would you stop writing about me now?
Just don't snore!!!Anemone and c clearly, thank you for forgiving me!
Being nervous is normal. I think that until my last Camino (number 7) , I was always nervous even if I rationally knew there was no reason to be. How weird is that?Anemone and c clearly, thank you for forgiving me!
I will start next monday from SJPP, but I am getting nervous for the 17 km walk from Orrison to Roncesvalles,
so I think I will be donating the bed, and walk to Valcarlos instead
I will not be asking so many questions on the forum anymore, because I will be on my way.
But this forum contains a LOT of good information. Thanks
Here we go again ha haJust don't snore!!!
Has anyone else noticed that we've had some very harsh reactions and expressions of anger, on several threads this week
Maybe we can ease off a bit.
Whilst I agree Wayfarer it seems to me that the point of C clearly's original post is more about the tone or our posts rather than the content. Although posts are within the rules often the tone of the language does not reflect the spirit of politeness, comradeship and tolerance to which William referred. How do we promote that? I suppose by having discussions like these.
I am very, very sorry that I was being aggressive on the snoring post the other day. It is just not me to behave that way. I know it is not an exuse, but I was in a very bad state after recieving some horrible news that day.
So please, would you stop writing about me now?
I'd like to say that in addition to finding tons of helpful advice here (both practical information as well as "you can do it" pep talks), I find the tone here to be wonderfully and refreshingly supportive and kind. I gave up Facebook entirely for Lent this year and I only glance at it 10% of what I used to. I enjoy this forum immensely and I'd like to say "thank you" to the many people here who've helped this somewhat nervous newbie about to embark on his 1st ever Camino.
It gets contagious - I feel it rising in myself! Maybe we can ease off a bit.
Anemone and c clearly, thank you for forgiving me!
I will start next monday from SJPP, but I am getting nervous for the 17 km walk from Orrison to Roncesvalles,
so I think I will be donating the bed, and walk to Valcarlos instead
I will not be asking so many questions on the forum anymore, because I will be on my way.
But this forum contains a LOT of good information. Thanks
I agree - we can as a group can be more positive about the frustrations and aggravations of Camino and of the people asking questions Camino.
When you start getting jaded answering the same questions just remember when you first came to the forum and asked some questions that were probably asked and answered many times. Don't sweat the search function, just ask away.
As a newbie I have no problem with anything you said.When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.
There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.
I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.
Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
I think you strike a very good balance.
Exactly. I didn't think there were any blatant infractions that needed to be reported. Rather, people were using the forum to vent excessive anger at people mainly off the forum!
I understand, and admit to the same! Fortunately I'm quite busy in the next couple of weeks and thus might be spared further embarrassment for at least a short time.I am embarrassed that I have succumbed to irritation on the Forum in my last few posts.
When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.
There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.
I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.
Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
I wholeheartedly agree. I am not one for la la land! One or two negative statements shouldn't get a thread closed down, as long as those statements are expressed with fact and courtesy.I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
Again, I agree! We weigh the facts/evidence and our values/priorities, and make judgements all the time. As, I think, we should.Yet what i've experienced here alot is this judgement equal condeming/condemnation. which is not the same thing - and not ever intended.
Where is the love button for this one as well?I wholeheartedly agree. I am not one for la la land! One or two negative statements shouldn't get a thread closed down, as long as those statements are expressed with fact and courtesy.
Again, I agree! We weigh the facts/evidence and our values/priorities, and make judgements all the time. As, I think, we should.
@amorfati1 A very helpful analysis of what goes on when people communicate in shared second or third languages.not900 - not sounding uncharitable at all to these ol' ears -
and thank you for pointing to - what i happen to view as one of the most thorny of roots - the cultural flavour differences of behaviour, conduct and expression and the resulting mis-understandings / presumptions / assumptions and regular mess that can stem from that.
I really appreciate your post and comment!
just because we all communicate in english (mostly) it does not mean we understand/speak it the same way.
my english comes with the euro-continental blend of an assortment of frank, slightly wicked humour, tongue-in-cheek, forthright, and non-fluff and low-on-sweetish.
There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.
When I first joined the forum 10 years ago, there didn't seem to be many people on it who had never been walking, never been away from home/out of state, never travelled without their spouse, never been backpacking. There seemed to be quite a mixed bag of Europeans then, who had done hiking before and were interested in the pilgrimage as a bigger, wider, more rounded experience.
There is now a definite takeover by more needy and idealistic people from outside Europe who are looking for more support and hand holding, help with making the simplest decisions, someone to look up bus and train timetables for them, someone to tell them will it be hot, what to 'do' about bed bugs, which are the 'best albergues' and the 'top picks' of places 'not to miss' and a whole lot of emotional crutch stuff. They all want to do the French way and start at SJPP 'like in the film'. They want to be told that everything will be fine, of course they will always find a bed, it's perfectly safe and the camino provides. Not that it can be unbearable at times, you will hate other pilgrims sometimes so much that you do and say bad things, and that there can be thieves and flashers.
I am helpful to the newbies out of a sense of public spirit, but really I am on the forum for selfish reasons - to read about alternative routes and cool adventures by the likes of @timr and @shawn corrigan and get ideas for my next walks.
Sorry if this sounds uncharitable, but I do honestly wish there was some kind of interactive resource you had to do before joining, which covered the basics. And I wish there wasn't quite such a la la land atmosphere on here, where one or two negative statements gets a thread closed down by the moderators. Being positive is good. So is being truthful.
I am quoting this section of a post from @notion900 because it obviously struck a chord of with others who signalled, either by 'liking' or by subsequent posts, that they agreed with the content. Might it be useful at this point, and especially in light of why @C clearly created the thread, to remember how Ivar set out his forum's 'mission statement' - Where past pilgrims share and future pilgrims learn. Note that 'pilgrims' is a word used twice, and Ivar has never seen fit to change the word to traveller, walker, trekker. Also there is no suggestion that newbies might have to pass a test on their skills in negotiating the website before posting questions - although there are some posts that I agree might usefully be included in an introduction to the forum. I have to disagree with you @notion900 about there being a 'takeover' of the forum it belongs to Ivar and any other claim to ownership would be spurious nor would I characterise anyone posting as 'needy'. Learning the accepted vocabulary can be a necessary part of learning how to become an active, respected member of a community, but as we all know from the struggles to retain languages such as Breton, Welsh, Galician, Catalan etc. etc. having a dominant group within a group set the terms for the appropriate vocabulary that will qualify the person for membership is, in my view to make people taking those first tentative steps to making a post feel unwelcome. There is a difference between being judgemental or elitist; the difference is important as the latter seeks to discriminate and in some cases exclude. I am often grumpy, I don't live in la-la land (whatever that is), I have often 'liked' posts I later regretted because I hadn't waited to see the wider context. What I have learned from you all on this forum is precious to me, but maintaining a welcome and remembering what Ivar set out to do has to be the bottom line. There is always Facebook and PMs to enable other kinds of conversation.
Finally, @amorfati1's post raises the question of interesting and sometime problematic cultural differences. Honesty is good, causing offence to another because of ill-considered expression of honesty is simply rude.
Going back to the original poster's comment about harshness and anger, I'd personally rather read a few well written rants about trespassing rather than people inanely fretting about whether they can bring coffee in from their home country.
It isn't that strange, is it, given that the non-Europeans have much further to travel, and go to Europe less frequently, and are less familiar with how things work in the EU? We can't hop to Paris for a weekend, or to Spain on a budget airline. Those who are English speakers enjoy the community here on the forum, and sometimes do ask trivial questions. Maybe there is a bit of cultural difference there in the way we chat, but that could be considered a positive thing. As I've said before, I am no angel when it comes to my response, and I roll my eyesnon Europeans are for some reason in need to be reassured about just about eveything.
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