- Time of past OR future Camino
- Too many and too often!
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But the first 100km doesn't finish at the tomb of the apostle in Santiago. Am I being ridiculously old-fashioned in thinking that is the natural end point of a pilgrimage on the Caminos?A perfect opportunity to mention here that if you are thinking about doing the last 100km, you may also consider doing the first 100km instead.
No, you're not... and I agree with you.But the first 100km doesn't finish at the tomb of the apostle in Santiago. Am I being ridiculously old-fashioned in thinking that is the natural end point of a pilgrimage on the Caminos?
I am in Galicia at the moment. I have never seen this many walkers, anywhere, on my previous 5 trips. As mentioned; not many in other partsI would imagine that the % increases (less pilgrims) in other parts of the camino, like the glorious meseta. Galicia is saturated, but only Galicia.
A perfect opportunity to mention here that if you are thinking about doing the last 100km, you may also consider doing the first 100km instead.
That happened before 2019I recall the albergue in Roncesvalles reduced its number of bunks by a sizable amount. Could this contribute to the lower numbers?
My guess is that holy years mostly affect the last 100 km.Haven’t Holy Years typicallly seen huge spikes, with a subsequent reduction to the more normal growth on the graph? Or is this phenomenon limited to Sarria?
I think @trecile is correct in the need for better historical data from SJPP/R.Am I right to think that this might indicate an even larger downturn in the future? If a Holy Year’s numbers are 10% fewer than the pre-covid non Holy Year, that would make 2022 a real outlier in terms of numbers, no? Haven’t Holy Years typicallly seen huge spikes, with a subsequent reduction to the more normal growth on the graph? Or is this phenomenon limited to Sarria? I may be missing something here, so really I am just asking.
I was also in this category. A more accurate comparison might be numbers starting in SJPDP registered by the pilgrim office. Steve Started SJPDP on 19 September and arrived Santiago 17 October. I do regret completing the walk so quickly and should have taken a few extra days. Days less than 25km were generally more enjoyable than those more than 25km.My wife and I contributed to the Roncevalles decrease, by walking to Burgette and getting a room in a Pension there. We did not want to sleep in the big Albergue...
Jim, currently in Las Herrerias...
Or perhaps confusing the bare minimum to earn a Compostela with the bare minimum to receive a plenary indulgence.Perhaps the huge numbers finishing in Santiago this year are in large part due to it being a holy year with pilgrims only interested in doing the bare minimum to earn a Compostela.
You're right. It's not necessary to walk at all to receive a plenary indulgence. From the Pilgrims OfficeOr perhaps confusing the bare minimum to earn a Compostela with the bare minimum to receive a plenary indulgence.
I assumed they meant do the first 100 and then the last 100.But the first 100km doesn't finish at the tomb of the apostle in Santiago. Am I being ridiculously old-fashioned in thinking that is the natural end point of a pilgrimage on the Caminos?
This is how @wisepilgrim clarified :I assumed they meant do the first 100 and then the last 100.
No, you're not... and I agree with you.
I ought to have clarified a bit more: For everyone thinking to do the last 100km as a starter camino, with plans to return to points further/farther away if everything goes well.
I find that there are a lot of pilgrims in this group.
YES. It’s the ending point, for me, the whole point.But the first 100km doesn't finish at the tomb of the apostle in Santiago. Am I being ridiculously old-fashioned in thinking that is the natural end point of a pilgrimage on the Caminos?
I wondered if the opening of Borda might mean people walking, SJPDP, Borda, Burgette instead - bypassing Roncesvalles.My wife and I contributed to the Roncevalles decrease, by walking to Burgette and getting a room in a Pension there. We did not want to sleep in the big Albergue...
Jim, currently in Las Herrerias...
We used the Burricot Express Mountain shuttle, walk to Croix Thibault on day 1, shuttled back to our lodging, then from the Croix to Burgette on day #2.I wondered if the opening of Borda might mean people walking, SJPDP, Borda, Burgette instead - bypassing Roncesvalles.
With only 14 beds, I don't think that Borda accounts for such a drop off. Plus, I'd venture to guess that at least half of those who stay at Borda and Orisson also stop at Roncesvalles.I wondered if the opening of Borda might mean people walking, SJPDP, Borda, Burgette instead - bypassing Roncesvalles.
Thanks for saying this because after completing the Portuguese last week, I vowed never again due to health issues and definitely not the French Way, but now I am home, I am thinking maybe about 200 km stretch in the middle of the French Way to be more in tune with my physical abilities. Will think more next year with a view to May 2024.I would imagine that the % increases (less pilgrims) in other parts of the camino, like the glorious meseta. Galicia is saturated, but only Galicia.
A perfect opportunity to mention here that if you are thinking about doing the last 100km, you may also consider doing the first 100km instead.
I think Covid and travel concerns are major reasons.Am I right to think that this might indicate an even larger downturn in the future? If a Holy Year’s numbers are 10% fewer than the pre-covid non Holy Year, that would make 2022 a real outlier in terms of numbers, no? Haven’t Holy Years typicallly seen huge spikes, with a subsequent reduction to the more normal growth on the graph? Or is this phenomenon limited to Sarria? I may be missing something here, so really I am just asking.
We walked in May and June this year. My observation was that all of the private rooms were booked but albergue dorms were not full. There were noticeably fewer people on the trail with many cafes nearly empty. I think Covid is the main reason.With only 14 beds, I don't think that Borda accounts for such a drop off. Plus, I'd venture to guess that at least half of those who stay at Borda and Orisson also stop at Roncesvalles.
If you want to receive a Compostela then at minimum you must walk the final 100km of a recognised Camino route ending in Santiago. As proof the pilgrim office will expect to see at least two sellos per day in your credencial for that final 100km section. No matter how far you have walked previously. This screenshot is from the pilgrim office's own website and spells out the conditions.I apologize, but I am thoroughly confused. I just Googled the requirements for receiving the Compostela. A number of the sites show that the Compostela is only awarded for walking the last 100 km. Only a couple state that any consecutive 100 km will do. Would someone please set me straight? My wife and I are planning our first Camino around an April/May 2023 timeframe. Thank you!
Thank you! That is what we are planning. I appreciate your response. Buen Camino!If you want to receive a Compostela then at minimum you must walk the final 100km of a recognised Camino route ending in Santiago. As proof the pilgrim office will expect to see at least two sellos per day in your credencial for that final 100km section. No matter how far you have walked previously. This screenshot is from the pilgrim office's own website and spells out the conditions.
View attachment 135521
I walked the Portuguese Camino, finishing last week and DID NOT get two sellos or stamps per day from Tui onwards and I got my compostela.If you want to receive a Compostela then at minimum you must walk the final 100km of a recognised Camino route ending in Santiago. As proof the pilgrim office will expect to see at least two sellos per day in your credencial for that final 100km section. No matter how far you have walked previously. This screenshot is from the pilgrim office's own website and spells out the conditions.
View attachment 135521
First thought is how is European economic aspect impacting situation. Appreciate for European folks, Camino is a cheap ‘holiday’ but maybe some Impact! I don’t know!Quite a few assumptions about the reasons for the decrease …. If I am not mistaken, the article deals with lower numbers of pilgrims in 2022 overall in the region of Navarra, compared to 2019, and not just in Roncesvalles.
There are no actual survey data why those who did walk in 2022 came to walk, and what the reasons are of those who could have come in 2022 but didn’t come. Holy Years - do they actually matter much for the overwhelming majority of the long distance Camino walkers? And those who walk only in Galicia - are they all “starter pilgrims” on their “taster Camino”? Or do they simply just want to walk in green Galicia during the summer months and not elsewhere or is their traditional idea of pilgrimage just that: a relatively short distance and not a month long walk?
It is up to the discretion of the volunteer at the Pilgrims Office. Some have been denied for not having two stamps per day, so we always recommend that people abide by the requirements set forth by the Cathedral.I walked the Portuguese Camino, finishing last week and DID NOT get two sellos or stamps per day from Tui onwards and I got my compostela.
I did 3 caminos in 2020 and 2021.It was mainly Europeans. Young folks too. Didn’t really hear terms like ‘holy week’ or even ‘pilgrim’ . Very different in feel to this forum! I have often wondered if the religious aspect is largely an older folks USA thing? Not saying it is! I just don’t know!Quite a few assumptions about the reasons for the decrease …. If I am not mistaken, the article deals with lower numbers of pilgrims in 2022 overall in the region of Navarra, compared to 2019, and not just in Roncesvalles.
There are no actual survey data why those who did walk in 2022 came to walk, and what the reasons are of those who could have come in 2022 but didn’t come. Holy Years - do they actually matter much for the overwhelming majority of the long distance Camino walkers? And those who walk only in Galicia - are they all “starter pilgrims” on their “taster Camino”? Or do they simply just want to walk in green Galicia during the summer months and not elsewhere or is their traditional idea of pilgrimage just that: a relatively short distance and not a month long walk?
That's not surprising. Although I've not re-checked the numbers right now, these two years were the Covid-19 years with numerous travel restrictions and movement restrictions with the result that the Camino pilgrim population was less international than in previous years. Which is also the reason why the reference year in the article is 2019 and not the two years between 2019 and 2022.caminos in 2020 and 2021. It was mainly Europeans
Yes sorry I wasn’t clear! I know they were very much the Covid years (how could I not!) hence young Europeans! I guess I was saying how that demographic were unaffected by thing like ‘holy week’ and terms like ‘pilgrim’!That's not surprising. Although I've not re-checked the numbers right now, these two years were the Covid-19 years with numerous travel restrictions and movement restrictions with the result that the Camino pilgrim population was less international than in previous years. Which is also the reason why the reference year in the article is 2019 and not the two years between 2019 and 2022.
People who are interested in the cultural-religious-historical background of the Camino to Santiago will know about the existence of Holy Years. That knowledge does not mean that Holy Years are of particular meaning to them personally and that it influences their travel choices though. Generally speaking. There will always be anecdotes that will tell the opposite story.
The previous Jacobean Holy Year was in 2010. Below is a graph illustrating Compostela numbers for 2009, 2010 and 2011 for those who indicated Sarria, Cebreiro, Roncesvalles or SJPP as their departure points. The increase in 2010 is significantly noticeable for Sarria and also Cebreiro and not much for Roncesvalles and SJPP. A comparison between 2004 (Holy Year) and 2005 gives a similar result btw. People are often fixated on annual totals only without differentiation of seasonal or regional factors.My guess is that holy years mostly affect the last 100 km. I think that we would need to see a graph of those starting at SJPDP and Roncesvalles over the years
Whoah! There certainly are plenty of Americans on the form, but I would guess less than 50%. Older folks, possibly.’ . Very different in feel to this forum! I have often wondered if the religious aspect is largely an older folks USA thing? Not saying it is! I just don’t know!
I am guessing that would be because the person you spoke to at the Pilgrim’s Office used their discretion to decide you were a bona fide pilgrim. Probably a good call. All the best and Buen Camino for next time.I walked the Portuguese Camino, finishing last week and DID NOT get two sellos or stamps per day from Tui onwards and I got my compostela.
Thanks. I didn’t mean to imply that Americans were the majority on this forum ( although they might be on reflection, not that I have an issue with that if course), I guess I was going back to an earlier post about how important ‘holy week’ is in the big scheme of things and maybe more broadly moving that to thinking about the difference between the forum which has a certain culture ( lots of use of terms like holy week/pilgrims) versus my experience of the Camino.Whoah! There certainly are plenty of Americans on the form, but I would guess less than 50%. Older folks, possibly.
Not where I thought my earlier comment would lead to and not certain whether it would be wise to pursue this path ...I did 3 caminos in 2020 and 2021.It was mainly Europeans. Young folks too. Didn’t really hear terms like ‘holy week’ or even ‘pilgrim’ . Very different in feel to this forum! I have often wondered if the religious aspect is largely an older folks USA thing? Not saying it is! I just don’t know!
Not where I thought my earlier comment would lead to and not certain whether it would be wise to pursue this path .... I guess that it is safe to say that this forum and many of the 'promotors' of Camino de Santiago walking focus on the long-distance and long-term foot pilgrimage - over many hundreds of kilometers. What they know are the contemporary books and movies and blogs and news articles and they shape their ideas of how it's done. I was thinking recently that there are people, especially in the south and the middle of the European continent who still have a collective memory of foot pilgrimage and it is different ... that it is shorter and does not lead to very far away destinations. These were just some recent thoughts I had along these lines ... iow, say 100 km or a week, or even just a weekend, is all they ever want or aim for and that they end at THE destination.
Sorry I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about which I am sure is a reflection on me rather than you!! I was merely supporting your view that ‘holy week’ didn’t seem that important to the folks I have walked Caminos with and maybe (just maybe) didn’t correlate with the views on here!!Not where I thought my earlier comment would lead to and not certain whether it would be wise to pursue this path ....
I guess that it is safe to say that this forum and many of the 'promotors' of Camino de Santiago walking focus on the long-distance and long-term foot pilgrimage - over many hundreds of kilometers and over many weeks. What they know are the contemporary books and movies and blogs and news articles and they shape their ideas of how it's done. I was thinking recently that there are people, especially in the south and the middle of the European continent who still have a collective memory of foot pilgrimage and it is different ... that it is shorter and does not lead to very far away destinations. These were just some recent thoughts I had along these lines ... iow, say 100 km or a week, or even just a weekend, is all they ever want or aim for and that they end at THE destination.
Not that it matters much in the greater scheme of things but: I was referring to the Jacobean Holy Year which happens "every 6, 5, 6 and 11 years (a total of 14 times in every century)" and not about Holy Week which happens every year and is a synonym for the week from Palm Sunday to Easter Sunday.I was merely supporting your view that ‘holy week’ didn’t seem that important to the folks I have walked Caminos with and maybe (just maybe) didn’t correlate with the views on here!!
I think the Jacobean Holy Year is a significant factor in any consideration of the numbers of pilgrims, and would still provide quite fruitful discussion. My difficulty as an erstwhile student of the black statistical arts is that forum members will rarely have access to the range of statistics that would let the discussion proceed down both the highways and many by-ways it might entail.Not that it matters much in the greater scheme of things but: I was referring to the Jacobean Holy Year which happens "every 6, 5, 6 and 11 years (a total of 14 times in every century)" and not about Holy Week which happens every year and is a synonym for the week before Easter.
.... or is their traditional idea of pilgrimage just that: a relatively short distance and not a month long walk?
Yes, we met a woman from Portugal I think in 2016, and she was excited and proud to show us footage of a 'pilgrimage' her town undertakes annually I think. It was 3 -4 days. I am afraid I don't remember the details, but I do remember the animation with which she spoke about it, so it was an important event to them. Her whole family would participate.Not where I thought my earlier comment would lead to and not certain whether it would be wise to pursue this path ....
I guess that it is safe to say that this forum and many of the friends and of the 'promotors' of Camino de Santiago walking focus on the long-distance and long-term foot pilgrimage - over many hundreds of kilometers and over many weeks. What they know are the contemporary books and movies and blogs and news articles and they shape their ideas of how it's done and what they like. I was thinking recently that there are people, especially in the south and the middle of the European continent who still have a collective memory of foot pilgrimage and it is different ... that it is shorter and does not lead to very far away destinations. These were just some recent thoughts I had along these lines ... iow, say 100 km or a week, or even just a weekend, is all they ever want or aim for and ending at the main destination is important to them.
Initially, I was going to start my camino in Sept in SJPdP. I was able to make reservations up to Roncevalles. However, we could not find a private room we would want to stay at from there to Pamplona. This was 5 months before departure. So after monitoring the booking sites, including direct contact with accommodations, we decided to start elsewhere.Am I right to think that this might indicate an even larger downturn in the future? If a Holy Year’s numbers are 10% fewer than the pre-covid non Holy Year, that would make 2022 a real outlier in terms of numbers, no? Haven’t Holy Years typicallly seen huge spikes, with a subsequent reduction to the more normal growth on the graph? Or is this phenomenon limited to Sarria? I may be missing something here, so really I am just asking.
You are correct. The 100kBut the first 100km doesn't finish at the tomb of the apostle in Santiago. Am I being ridiculously old-fashioned in thinking that is the natural end point of a pilgrimage on the Caminos?
You are correct Bradypus the fist 100k does not end in Santiago, but a few more k's and your there. And, is my guess, the more fulfilled for it.But the first 100km doesn't finish at the tomb of the apostle in Santiago. Am I being ridiculously old-fashioned in thinking that is the natural end point of a pilgrimage on the Caminos?
I had the same experience on the Portuguese in September, 2018; the volunteers in the Pilgrim Office were so swamped they weren't even checking for stamps other than the initial stamp from Lisboa and a very cursory glance at the last few days. They did ask me if I had walked the last 100KM. In 2013, when I walked from SJPDP to Santiago the volunteer checked carefully over the final four or five days to be sure I had two+ sellos per day.I walked the Portuguese Camino, finishing last week and DID NOT get two sellos or stamps per day from Tui onwards and I got my compostela.
This is also a common thing in Greece. Many churches celebrate mass only once a year and local people make the pilgrimage on that day.Katharina this immediately reminded me of the local annual pilgrimages to shrines or holy sites so common in Spanish villages and towns - the Romeria. The whole village or town participates, and it is often very celebratory. I can see how that cultural tradition would influence Spanish perceptions of the Camino, and how it plays into the Sarria to Santiago section. Makes absolute sense. I've always said Sarria to Santiago is one big fiesta, and even more so in a Holy Year.
I had a look at the website of the group from Getafe: They had started in Roncesvalles in 2014.I remember wondering where such a big group (hundreds, maybe more) would find accommodation each night
It is certainly possible that a kind volunteer may give a pilgrim a Compostela when the pilgrim has not fulfilled all of the official requirements. That is clearly what happened to you. However, I would not advise anyone for whom a Compostela is important to count on encountering such a volunteer.I walked the Portuguese Camino, finishing last week and DID NOT get two sellos or stamps per day from Tui onwards and I got my compostela.
I think there are a number of ideas and types of pilgrimage.Katharina this immediately reminded me of the local annual pilgrimages to shrines or holy sites so common in Spanish villages and towns - the Romeria. The whole village or town participates, and it is often very celebratory. I can see how that cultural tradition would influence Spanish perceptions of the Camino, and how it plays into the Sarria to Santiago section. Makes absolute sense. I've always said Sarria to Santiago is one big fiesta, and even more so in a Holy Year.
On my Camino last year I arrived in Santiago Sept 25th along with 641 other pilgrims. I checked up on the official figures for the same day this year and 885 arrived. I expected the figures to be much higher as in pre pandemic years.No, you're not... and I agree with you.
I ought to have clarified a bit more: For everyone thinking to do the last 100km as a starter camino, with plans to return to points further/farther away if everything goes well.
I find that there are a lot of pilgrims in this group.
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