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A Historical Question - Where are they today?

scruffy1

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Year of past OR future Camino
Holy Year from Pamplona 2010, SJPP 2011, Lisbon 2012, Le Puy 2013, Vezelay (partial watch this space!) 2014; 2015 Toulouse-Puenta la Reina (Arles)
As the Muslims conquered Spain one of their first actions was to build a mosque in they settlements they conquered and settled. The Christians replied by loudly ringing the church bells whenever the muezzin called the Muslims to prayer. The significance of the bells should not be ignored since they called the faithful to prayer, marked great happiness and tolled at the death, today they also tell the time. In 997 al-Mansur’s raid on Santiago de Compostelo destroyed the church, burning the entire city to the ground. Evidence of the intensity of the defeat can be gathered from current excavations that reveal a layer of ash and rubble beneath the site of the cathedrals constructed by Alphonso II and III . The only portions of the city not left to burn were the shrine of Saint James and the cathedral bells which were taken booty and carried on the backs of Christian slaves to the Muslim hub city of Cordoba. In Cordoba, the bells were hung from the ceiling of the Great Mosque and used as oil lamps. Over 200 years after the bells were captured from Compostela by al-Mansur and his armies, on June 29, 1236, Christian King Ferdinand III of Castile and Leon recaptured the bells from the Great Mosque at Cordoba and returned them to the cathedral at Santiago de Compostela. They were not hung to ring again but simply displayed in a courtyard as a spoil of war and symbol of triumph. Now I have not visited the museum in Santiago for years and years and cannot recall seeing them there. , Were the mosque lamps reformed into bells? Did they remain as lamps? Where are they today?
 
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domigee

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2020? Looks like.... nowhere! 😁
As the Muslims conquered Spain one of their first actions was to build a mosque in they settlements they conquered and settled. The Christians replied by loudly ringing the church bells whenever the muezzin called the Muslims to prayer. The significance of the bells should not be ignored since they called the faithful to prayer, marked great happiness and tolled at the death, today they also tell the time. In 997 al-Mansur’s raid on Santiago de Compostelo destroyed the church, burning the entire city to the ground. Evidence of the intensity of the defeat can be gathered from current excavations that reveal a layer of ash and rubble beneath the site of the cathedrals constructed by Alphonso II and III . The only portions of the city not left to burn were the shrine of Saint James and the cathedral bells which were taken booty and carried on the backs of Christian slaves to the Muslim hub city of Cordoba. In Cordoba, the bells were hung from the ceiling of the Great Mosque and used as oil lamps. Over 200 years after the bells were captured from Compostela by al-Mansur and his armies, on June 29, 1236, Christian King Ferdinand III of Castile and Leon recaptured the bells from the Great Mosque at Cordoba and returned them to the cathedral at Santiago de Compostela. They were not hung to ring again but simply displayed in a courtyard as a spoil of war and symbol of triumph. Now I have not visited the museum in Santiago for years and years and cannot recall seeing them there. , Were the mosque lamps reformed into bells? Did they remain as lamps? Where are they today?

I think they were melted and turned back into bells.... Not sure where I get this from though, probably the series 'Isabel' on Spanish TV :) I'm sure you'll get a more erudite answer shortly.
 

domigee

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2020? Looks like.... nowhere! 😁
This is what I found:
http://enigmasdecordoba.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/las-campanas-de-santiago.html
La historia no acaba aqui.Las campanas actuales de la catedral de Compostela(torre sur del obradoiro y torre berenguela)no son ni de lejos,éstas nuevas campanas refundidas en Cordoba.
Durante la transformacion barroca del siglo XVI se erigio una nueva torre en la catedral,que llaman hoy del reloj,la cual necesitaba una gran campana,bien se consiguio rompiendo las 11 nuevas que habian llegado desde Cordoba para hacer la monumental"campana de Berenguela",la cual descansa hoy sobre un pedestal en una esquina del claustro tras ser reemplazada por una copia hecha en Holanda cuando la original se agrieto.

Looks like they made one huge bell out of the 11 original ones (to fit the new tower) and it is now resting on a pedestal in a corner of the cloister - replaced by a copy made in Holland when it cracked.....
 
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Kathar1na

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To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Looks like they made one huge bell out of the 11 original ones (to fit the new tower) and it is now resting on a pedestal in a corner of the cloister - replaced by a copy made in Holland when it cracked.....
There are three "old" bells on display (see website of the Musea da Catedral de Santiago de Compostela) but no explanation what they all are:

tg_carrusel_cabecera_grande.jpg


PS: I now see that there's a similar photo in the link @domigee provided but, in good forum fashion, I did not click on it before I wrote my comment. :cool:
 
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Kathar1na

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From Xacopedia: La estancia de Almanzor en Compostela mezcla leyenda y realidad con igual fuerza. Es uno de los momentos más mitificados de la historia jacobea - The Almanzor's stay in Compostela mixes legend and reality with equal force. It is one of the most mystified moments in Jacobean history.

This was in 997. Are the chronicles that tell the story of this military campaign contemporary eyewitness accounts? How big were the bells then? Were they hung up in Cordoba as intact bells or melted into lanterns, as some modern secondary, tertiary etc online sources say? Were the ones that Ferdinand brought back 240 years later the same ones as the ones Almanzor took away? I guess we will never know but without a doubt compelling stories have been created throughout the centuries and it continues to this day. :cool:
 
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domigee

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2020? Looks like.... nowhere! 😁
From Xacopedia: La estancia de Almanzor en Compostela mezcla leyenda y realidad con igual fuerza. Es uno de los momentos más mitificados de la historia jacobea - The Almanzor's stay in Compostela mixes legend and reality with equal force. It is one of the most mystified moments in Jacobean history.

This was in 997. Are the chronicles that tell the story of the raid contemporary eyewitness accounts? How big were the bells then? Were they hung up in Cordoba as intact bells or melted into lanterns, as some modern secondary, tertiary etc online sources say? Were the ones that Ferdinand brought back 240 years later the same ones as the ones Almanzor took away? I guess we will never know but without a doubt compelling stories have been created throughout the centuries and it continues to this day. :cool:

I 'heard' (i.e. read somewhere no doubt) that they were hung upturned and filled with oil.... But who knows?
Apparently (from the link mentioned above) the large one on display in Santiago is a replica because the original cracked....
 

Kathar1na

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To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Apparently (from the link mentioned above) the large one on display in Santiago is a replica because the original cracked....
A replica of a bell from when? :)

But the link you provided appears to be a good one, thank you very much for digging it up! I had imagined that these poor prisoners were carrying enormous bells on their backs all the way from Santiago to Cordoba but it appears that the Santiago basilica from where the bells were removed in 997 was the pre-Romanesque church, a rather modest affair, with a bell gable and a carillon, i.e. a set of 11 small bells. That makes more sense. I'm not sure where the number 11 comes from.

Also, according to the link, Almanzor took bells from all the places he passed through during his military campaigns; obviously, bells consist of precious raw material, not only during Almanzor's time in the 10th century but still during the wars of the 20th century where churches were ordered to part with their bells so that they could be melted and used for less peaceful purposes.

Also, according to the link, in Cordoba the bells were put on tripods and filled with oil. Again, that makes more sense than hanging them up as lamps.

Thanks again!
 
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t2andreo

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The largest bell currently in use is named “Santiago,” what else would they name it?
 
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jeffnd

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Good thing someone decided to get a close up of the date on one of the bells, it might help shed some light on the subject!
 

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Kanga

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So the "modern" bell is dated 1779. A brash new bell. Still ten years older than the first white settlement in Australia!
 

t2andreo

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OMG, the priest doing the tour must have fibbed. That is where I got my info whilst on a roof tour.
 
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Kathar1na

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To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
Have a look at this: http://campaners.com/php/catedral.php?numer=666 - it's a detailed and official inventory of all the bells of the cathedrals in Spain.

Santiago Cathedral seems to have millions of bells ... ok, a few dozens. Mostly from the 16th century onwards. The two quite large bells hanging in the clock tower strike at the hour and quarter hours and date from 1989 and 1990. They are the ones you hear today. They replaced two of the three bells shown on the photo earlier in this thread and displayed in the courtyard; they were cast in 1729 as shown on @jeffnd's photo and as listed in the inventory. Look carefully, the year on the bell reads 1729 not 1779.

Nothing from Almanzor's or Ferdinand III's time is left.

Did I already mention that the internet is a wondrous place? :cool:
 
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Kathar1na

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To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
So ... there's a wooden thing called carraca in one of the Cathedral's towers and it's got to do with the Semana Santa, the week before Easter. Can someone explain this? Have you heard it? Is this something typical Spanish or can you find it elsewhere? And a question I've been meaning to ask for quite a while: do Spanish bells fly to Rome before Easter, like the French church bells do?

t666e.jpg

foto164529.jpg
 
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Kathar1na

Member
Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
So ... there's a wooden thing called carraca in one of the Cathedral's towers and it's got to do with the Semana Santa, the week before Easter. Can someone explain this? Have you heard it? Is this something typical Spanish or can you find it elsewhere? And a question I've been meaning to ask for quite a while: do Spanish bells fly to Rome before Easter, like the French church bells do?
I see that this question, asked three years ago on 14 April 2018, has not found any interest 😇.

Some answers can be found in a very recent article in the Correo Gallego. Today is Good Friday, and as officials of the Cathedral of Santiago have confirmed, the Carraca will sound twice today, namely at midday and at 7 pm, and three times on Saturday tomorrow at midday, 6 pm and 8 pm. The bells of the Cathedral will remain silent during this time. There's a video, too, produced by the Cathedral, and you can hear the recorded sound of the Carraca as it was heard in Santiago on Good Friday and on the Saturday before Easter 2018:

 
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Kathar1na

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Year of past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
That the church bells remain silent from Good Friday (or even from the evening of Maundy Thursday) until Easter Sunday morning as a sign of mourning is also a tradition elsewhere. There, children will use wooden instruments to produce a similar sound as that of the Carraca of Santiago. Here's a link to village in East Belgium where this tradition is still alive - the comment of the short video is in German.

 
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