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Which are the most 'traditional' routes from a Historical perspective?

Robo

Veteran Member
Time of past OR future Camino
Frances 15,16,18
VdlP 23, Invierno 23, Fisterra 23
I'm planning future Caminos, and have come to the conclusion that I prefer routes that have a long history and tradition of Pilgrimage. They have a different feel and energy for me somehow. Maybe it's just in my head?

The Primitivo I think was one of the first?
Others perhaps more recently created.

In searching online I was hoping to find a source that might give a brief history of the various routes.
But no luck so far.

Perhaps other Forum members might know of such a resource?
 
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The oldest Christian pilgrimage routes in Spain, short local ones excepted, are Cádiz > Rome (and the secondary routes attached to it, including those joining it via Catalonia and the Eastern Pyrenees towards Perpignan) ; and Western/Northern Spain & Portugal > Rome via more or less the French Piémont Way >> Béziers, albeit not on the current French route, and its own subsidiary routes.

The newest routes in Spain are the ones leading to Fátima, as it really is only just starting to become a destination for foot pilgrimages beginning outside of Portugal -- but there's a Madrid > Fátima and a Burgos > Fátima -- though most of Burgos > Fátima is actually on the Lisbon > Rome Way, so "newest" is quite relative.

As to the history of the establishment of the various routes to Santiago with relation to the Reconquista, hard to tell. The Primitivo is not really older than the Francès, as in years when relationships were better, Iberian Muslims would not impede the passage of Christian pilgrims, so that even very early on some would take what eventually became the Francès.

The Catalan Way is quite old, as it is a route to Rome that has additionally become a Camino de Santiago and an Ignatian Way, plus a route to Montserrat which is a major pilgrimage destination in its own right. Similar is likely true of the Camino de Castilla y Aragón.

It's true anyway that the first Caminos tended to be Ways to Rome & Jerusalem walked in "reverse", so that the Roman roads that the Francès is based around would have been Ways to Rome long before they ever became a Way to Compostela -- though Lugo and Ourense would have been the "starting" points for it in Galicia.

Conversely then, that means that the newer Camino routes are those that are not sensible Ways to Rome, so ones like the Madrid, Sureste, VDLP, Português, Mozarabe and so on, despite being historic, are not as old as the Francès and Primitivo/Norte, the Catalan, and so on that are Ways of both St. Peter and St. James. Another older one is the Vasco Interior, as some pilgrims would head to Rome via Burgos > Vitoria > Irun > Hendaye > Bayonne.
 
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HI @Robo

You may like to add the Aragones - from Col du Somport to Puenta la Reina - to your list of possibilities. It's a wonderful path.

For information on history, geology, art ... you might be interested in the book The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, or maybe you already have it. I have a kindle version. It covers both of the routes across the Pyrenees. Part 1 chapters 1 to 15 deal with the section from the Col du Somport to Puenta la Reina.

Happy planning.
 
Most, if not all, Camino routes served other purposes both before and during mediaeval times when the practice of pilgrimage was at its peak. The Francés, for example, linked Pamplona, Burgos, León and Astorga; all important cities in their own right. The Plata and the Lana were transhumation routes, probably in Neolithic times, and the Norte was an obvious link for the coastal towns. One of the things I thank the Camino for is opening my eyes to the richness and complexity of mediaeval culture, it’s economy, technology and social dynamics. Your question is a very open one, but all I can say is that any journey between two points in Spain will reveal a wealth of history and tradition.
 
HI @Robo

You may like to add the Aragones - from Col du Somport to Puenta la Reina - to your list of possibilities. It's a wonderful path.

For information on history, geology, art ... you might be interested in the book The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, or maybe you already have it. I have a kindle version. It covers both of the routes across the Pyrenees. Part 1 chapters 1 to 15 deal with the section from the Col du Somport to Puenta la Reina.

Happy planning.

Yes! When I first saw the original post, I reached for this book and you beat me to it. If you only get one book on the history of the Camino, this is the one. Get it in hardcopy so you can enjoy the street maps. Dave Whitson's podcast interview with co-author Linda Kay Davidson is enjoyable too.
 
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Hi Robo:
I can mention at least two Caminos with historical and religious meanings for your consideration.

The first is the Camino del Cid (The Way of El Cid), you can find information here: http://en.caminodelcid.org.this is a long “Camino” as it goes across Spain from Castilla to the South to Mediterranean coast. It follows the El Cid route based on the medieval poem “El Cantar del Mío Cid”. I’m sure that it will crisscross several of other Caminos.

The second is: Camino Teresiano (Way of St. Teresa - from Cradle to Grave). Of this, you will find threads on the forum and by valuable information from Elle Bieling website: https://www.pilgrimagetraveler.com/

Hope this helps.
 
What i have learned that the first pelgrimage was the primitivo. King AlfonsII travelled to santiago from the captital Oviedo to find out if the bones rediscorved there were indeed the remains of st James. This was the king of the only christian part of spain the rest was conquert by the mores and islamic. This is important to know. You can google and find a map of spain from 800. The camino frances from begin of the 10th century is almost on the boarder. A good rason to place a lot of military along the route.
If you are looking for old pilgrim routes to santiago look to the north.
 
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How the Camino Primitivo got its name is described in the article linked below. It was in 1992 and the two proposals were Camiño Primitivo and Camiño Vello. The proposal for Camiño Primitivo won.

Se non é por nós, hoxe o Camiño non existiría - If it had not been thanks to us, then the Camino Primitivo wouldn't exist, as one of the initiators and promotors is quoted. Of course, this may have been the view in 1992, a year before the epochal Holy Year 1993 and its tremendous success for promoting the Camino to Santiago. I guess at the time nobody could see the future developments. Nowadays any road where an old document or two can be found that indicates that someone walked it centuries ago has a good chance of being declared, labelled and waymarked as a historical Camino. However, none of them will ever equal to what we know today as the Camino Francés when it comes to historical and cultural transnational significance and innumerous well-preserved architectural buildings and other patrimony dating back to the Middle Ages.

 
Alfonso II may very well be the first pilgrim, or at least the first one important enough to be recorded. I don't believe the precise route he took from Oviedo was recorded, though. So the Primitivo is someone's best guess approximation and he may or may not have gone through the towns along the Primitivo, never mind along the tracks and roads we follow.

I suspect that pilgrims took many roads and paths along northern Spain. Even with the route marking, maps, and standardization we have now, think of all the alternate paths there are (e.g. the three out of Villafranca del Bierzo). Also, the roads medieval pilgrims most frequently walked upon probably ended up as highways today, precisely the roads that we are steered clear of.

That said, the Camino Frances in general, from town to town, is the best documented of the early routes with the Codex Calixtinus. And scholarly research seems to indicate that the Somport Pass to the Aragones start to the Frances was more popular in the early middle ages before it was overtaken by the Cize Pass to the west.
 
It’s arguable, been argued, that the roots of the nominative Frances lies in Franca (the free ones) think assorted Villafranca or Frankish ( just about anyone that wasn’t Iberian). There are also plenty of other interpretations of history and language available. The argument that the Primitivo was the first Camino is a pretty good one that the Camino Frances has the most history could also be made. But that’s a history of “Franks” hacking their way across northern Iberia towards Santiago by any which way they could find and bears little correlation to the current curated Camino Santiago.

I now look forward to @Kathar1na, @JabbaPapa and @SabsP shredding my propositions 😉
 
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to @Kathar1na
LOL, all I can add is that I spent a considerable amount of time once to find out from which moment of time onwards the whole long road from say Pamplona to Santiago started to be called Camino Francés but I never found an answer. I just know for certain that the medieval pilgrims never wrote that they had walked the Camino Francés or the Camino Primitivo let alone a Camino combo. They wrote that they went to Saint James in Galicia and that was it, mostly. Oh, and one of them famously wrote about the Upper Road and the Lower Road but nobody speaks about that today and both are neither labelled nor waymarked or promoted as such. 😇
 
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Alfonso II may very well be the first pilgrim, or at least the first one important enough to be recorded. I don't believe the precise route he took from Oviedo was recorded, though. So the Primitivo is someone's best guess approximation and he may or may not have gone through the towns along the Primitivo, never mind along the tracks and roads we follow.

I suspect that pilgrims took many roads and paths along northern Spain. Even with the route marking, maps, and standardization we have now, think of all the alternate paths there are (e.g. the three out of Villafranca del Bierzo). Also, the roads medieval pilgrims most frequently walked upon probably ended up as highways today, precisely the roads that we are steered clear of.

That said, the Camino Frances in general, from town to town, is the best documented of the early routes with the Codex Calixtinus. And scholarly research seems to indicate that the Somport Pass to the Aragones start to the Frances was more popular in the early middle ages before it was overtaken by the Cize Pass to the west.
When I imagine regal journeys such as that of Alfonzo II, I imagine the main entourage preceded several days earlier by his scouting party. This would have been run by a major domo or highly placed deputy charged with seeking out suitable accommodation along the route. I also suspect that there would have been considerable honour amongst local families in hosting the king, albeit with the attendant downside that not all the costs might have been recoverable. So the major domo might have been more engaged with the challenge of selecting which was the best of several places on offer, rather than finding any at all.

Word would quickly spread about where the king would be travelling, and when he would arrive at the various towns along the way. This would have drawn a suitable crowd to demonstrate to the king how much his subjects loved him, or when he had passed into another kingdom, how much he was honoured. But I expect that they would have been prepared for encounters with less pleasant or even unwelcoming receptions along the way as well.

It might be hard for the pilgrim walking today to understand in anything but the most abstract sense what such a pilgrimage would have looked like. Any romantic notions we have of the king wandering the countryside with a few knights and other retainers might be well shy of the reality of such an undertaking.
 
I’m minded of the Old Way, as promoted by https://britishpilgrimage.org/old-way/ Although there is inclination or desire to suggest this was a route undertaken by a multiplicity of medieval pilgrims it’s as likely to be the highly curated route taken by Henry II, a “penitent” monarch, via the castles of the nobility, who would have had few options to object and, the string of religious establishments that his later namesake demolished.

But, like the “history” of the Primitivo it gives comfort to the aspiring
 
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I now look forward to @Kathar1na, @JabbaPapa and @SabsP shredding my propositions 😉
Heh.

Only thing I'd shred is that Francés in Spanish comes from a Provençal Francés -- meaning French rather than Frankish ; which in French and Provençal is Franc, rather than Français/Francés.

The name anyway comes from French found along the way, though the story I've heard is that it was from numerous French settlers, speaking French in their villages, rather than from the pilgrims alone.
 
I prefer routes that have a long history and tradition of Pilgrimage. They have a different feel and energy for me somehow. Maybe it's just in my head?
I am curious which of the routes that you have walked have provided these characteristics, and which have not.

Is it the historical art, architecture, and pilgrimy landmarks or symbolism? Is it the frequency of albergues and camino afficionados? Or is it your personal interest in the history of the region?
 
I am curious which of the routes that you have walked have provided these characteristics, and which have not.

Is it the historical art, architecture, and pilgrimy landmarks or symbolism? Is it the frequency of albergues and camino afficionados? Or is it your personal interest in the history of the region?

It's very hard to quantify or identify.
Still a work in progress for me.

  1. Historical art, architecture? To a degree Yes.
  2. Pilgrimy landmarks or symbolism? To a degree Yes. (historical not modern)
  3. Is it the frequency of albergues and camino afficionados? No. Doesn't matter at all.
  4. Or is it your personal interest in the history of the region? No. not really.
I prefer routes that have a long history and tradition of Pilgrimage. They have a different feel and energy for me somehow. Maybe it's just in my head?

I was trying to not get too 'deep' into it. Because it's such a personal and intangible thing.
But perhaps what I get a sense of, from the older more 'traditional' routes is that unique energy that I think many of us feel, walking the path (literally sometimes) that millions have walked over perhaps a thousand years. For me it enhances the Spiritual nature of a Camino, and lifts it from being merely a nice walk or hike.

So did I get that sense on the routes I have walked so far?
It can vary I think, at different parts of the route.
I'll give them some sort of gut feel arbitrary ranking.

The Frances. Yes. 10/10.
The VdlP. Not much. 3/10
Invierno. Yes, a bit. 6/10
Fisterra/Muxia. A bit. 4/10 (walking along the Beach to Fisterra? 10/10)

My reason for asking, was that I think a large part of it for me at least, is knowing and feeling that I am walking a path (or close to it) that many Pilgrims have walked over many hundreds of years. Another Forum member remarked to me years ago, if you want a sense of that energy, go to the Great Dagon Pagoda in Yangon!

Who can put a finger on these things? It's really about what John Brierley called the "Inner Journey".
I just get a sense that for me that the older more travelled routes enhance the journey for me in some way.

Of course it could be complete nonsense, and probably is......... :oops:

But I'd like to at least try another 'older more travelled route' to see :rolleyes:

I may regret giving this deeper answer to your question. Go easy folks. :)

PS. I'm sure other environmental factors come into play of course, not just the route.
I generally walk alone, intentionally. And that helps. Yes I even managed that on the Frances in the past. Not sure I could manage it so easily now though.


But back to the original question..........

I wonder if there is a resource that shows the history of the various routes?
When they started being used etc.

Re-reading this it sounds like I'm wandering the Camino like some kind of Spiritual Water Diviner!
Here's a spot! :rolleyes:
 
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HI @Robo

You may like to add the Aragones - from Col du Somport to Puenta la Reina - to your list of possibilities. It's a wonderful path.

For information on history, geology, art ... you might be interested in the book The Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, or maybe you already have it. I have a kindle version. It covers both of the routes across the Pyrenees. Part 1 chapters 1 to 15 deal with the section from the Col du Somport to Puenta la Reina.

Happy planning.

I seem to have in in my Kindle account already! Must read this weekend. Thanks.
 
The VdlP. Not much. 3/10
On the VDLP and the Mozarabe, I always thought I was on an older well travelled route with a history of pilgrimage, even if the numbers weren't as high as the Frances. I just wasn't constantly reminded of it.

One thread that had considerable discussion of historical numbers was this one. It has a lot of references to historical sources and it also points out the unreliability of many of such sources.
 
On the VDLP and the Mozarabe, I always thought I was on an older well travelled route with a history of pilgrimage, even if the numbers weren't as high as the Frances. I just wasn't constantly reminded of it.

One thread that had considerable discussion of historical numbers was this one. It has a lot of references to historical sources and it also points out the unreliability of many of such sources.
Thanks I'll have a look at that thread.
I'll see if I can find it, but there was an interesting YT documentary by a Spanish Historian on the VdlP.
I recall him saying it wasn't really a 'traditional' Pilgrimage route.
 
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Maybe the kumano kodo in Japan. It is closer to your home i believe.

Got the felling there very strong but then again it was my first pilgrimage.

Both are unesco world heretage pilgrimages.
It is beautiful. Old full of history .
 
Alfonso II may very well be the first pilgrim, or at least the first one important enough to be recorded. I don't believe the precise route he took from Oviedo was recorded, though
Exactly. And that raises the question how the “most traditional routes from a historical perspective“ can be defined. I would not know how to answer this question. Perhaps it ought to be rephrased along the lines of what makes a recreated Camino pilgrimage route attractive today and why.

As to Alfonso II and the Camino Primitivo: Does the trek of one person and his entourage turn a road into a pilgrimage road? Have a look at this: https://venagalicia.gal/noticia/202...e-camino-santiago/00031671794237574419441.htm. Quote:

«There is a lot of overblown information about the Camino de Santiago. From a historical standpoint, there is still much to be discovered. There is an awful lot of information based on legends, a prioris and preconceived ideas that are not always historically documented. That’s the truth of the matter,» cautions José Miguel Andrade. As for the question of whether Alfonso II was indeed the first pilgrim, both experts agree that it can neither be confirmed nor denied. «We have no proof, though that is not to say that he was not. It simply cannot be proved, »concludes Rucquoi.
From what I remember (I may be wrong), the story of Alfonso the First Pilgrim was first “documented” in the 12th century or so, some 300+ years after the supposed event.

I doubt that there is a website with a history of the various Caminos in Spain. Christian pilgrims walked on normal roads which they shared with all sorts of travellers, they did not create specific pilgrimage roads. Christian pilgrimage saw its heydays in Europe during the 11th to 15th century. They walked all over the place. The contemporary recreation of such routes has been pioneered in Northern Spain and has now spread to other regions and countries with more or less success. Italy with Rome as the biggest pilgrim magnet and as a major transit country for European pilgrims on their way to Jerusalem must be full of potential traditional Caminos yet there has not been the same contemporary Camino development as in Spain. Which is why I think that it may be better to focus on the current attraction of the various Caminos and not on history.
 
And that raises the question how the “most traditional routes from a historical perspective“ can be defined. I would not know how to answer this question.
Nor I.

Nor am I aware of any academic study that has sought to do so.
Christian pilgrims walked on normal roads which they shared with all sorts of travellers, they did not create specific pilgrimage roads.
Indeed !! (with a small number of local exceptions, such as the road up to Montserrat for example, and some other roads or short sections thereof laid down for specific pilgrim purposes)
Christian pilgrimage saw its heydays in Europe during the 11th to 15th century.
Oh, I'd say 4th to 18th Centuries, between Christianity being decriminalised by Constantine and the post-Renaissance attempts to sideline it.

We tend to have a bias in here with regard to the apogee of Santiago pilgrims in the exact period that you mention, but pilgrimages to Rome and journeys or pilgrimages to Jerusalem never really slacked off until the late 1700s.
They walked all over the place.
Yes -- we do !! 😎
 
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I'm a historian. The Camino Frances is the 'plus ultra' when it comes to the historical record, cultural heritage and influence, architecture, arts, and folklore. It's got the juju! The Camino del Norte also has pilgrims woven into its long history... there are good reasons these two Caminos were the only ones included in UNESCO's World Heritage Site designation.
The Camino Primitivo, the Via de la Plata, and the Portuguese central route also have clear historical ties to the Santiago pilgrimage. There are many other routes that were once use by pilgrims to get there, with only fragments of historical proof of their passing. There are many more "new camino" routes that have been cooked-up by tourist outfits, with varying levels of success -- IMHO the clearest example being the Portuguese Coastal. Lots of tourist appeal, zero pilgrimage history, but only history buffs seem to care!
 
The Plata and the Lana were transhumation routes
When I walked VDLP, I was very mindful that this was a north-south route that did not develop as a Camino pilgrimage, given its destination was not Santiago de Compostela. But, throughout centuries, pilgrims used this road to travel from the south of Spain northward in order to reach Santiago. The Roman history of this route was of keenest interest to me right from the beginning, in Seville, where relics repurposed from Italica through time were readily visible all around the city: in the royal palace, in bars, on street corners, in the Palace of the Countess of Lebrija. I'd say my main purpose for choosing this route was to learn about and soak up Roman history of this walk. I can go on and on with my enthusiasm here, but I'll diverge.

In reading placards along the way, I learned of the transhumation aspect of the Camino Real that paralleled VDLP in that it was a route for livestock movement between the north and south as seasonal temperatures gave reason for this movement. I found this intriguing and chalked it all up to learning something new about history of Spain.

Well, now with Robo's OP and dick bird's comment, I've just spent a couple of hours spiraling through varied online rabbit holes, reading and learning about transhumation in Europe. A UNESCO website has a beautiful 10min. video on transhumation in the Med. and the Alps which now gives me a visual of the roads / paths I had seen -beyond what I had read on placards- on my VDLP walk.

Perhaps my post doesn't quite fit with the sentiment of the OP, but today my VDLP pilgrimage has now swollen with richness with my new-found knowledge.
Thank you Robo and dick bird!
 
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Does anyone else but me think it odd that a pilgrimage to the bones of one who may have touched the divine should be prescribed by guidebook writers, App compilers and tourist offices? I always thought, have always thought, that the purpose of pilgrimage was pilgrimage. All the other stuff is just stuff.

We can all try to track down the perfect Albergue or Orujo depending on our inclination but, surely, the point was the bones? Or have I lost the plot entirely?
 
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Does anyone else but me think it odd that a pilgrimage to the bones of one who may have touched the divine should be prescribed by guidebook writers, App compilers and tourist offices? I always thought, have always thought, that the purpose of pilgrimage was pilgrimage. All the other stuff is just stuff.

We can all try to track down the perfect Albergue or Orujo depending on our inclination but, surely, the point was the bones? Or have I lost the plot entirely?
On point @Tincatinker . Over the centuries, Pilgrims used multiple routes to get there.
I just find those most travelled over time, to have a special appeal........
 
I just find those most travelled over time, to have a special appeal........
But so far, you name only one route that appealed to you in this way. As @Rebekah Scott said, the Camino Frances is in a class apart, for many reasons. I question whether any other routes will support your theory about sheer numbers of pilgrims being the critical factor in their appeal to you in the 21st century. Also, be aware of confirmation bias when you look for historical evidence to support a theory! ;)
 
But so far, you name only one route that appealed to you in this way. As @Rebekah Scott said, the Camino Frances is in a class apart, for many reasons. I question whether any other routes will support your theory about sheer numbers of pilgrims being the critical factor in their appeal to you in the 21st century. Also, be aware of confirmation bias when you look for historical evidence to support a theory! ;)
Who said there is anything logical about this ...... ;)
 
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When I walked VDLP, I was very mindful that this was a north-south route that did not develop as a Camino pilgrimage, given its destination was not Santiago de Compostela. But, throughout centuries, pilgrims used this road to travel from the south of Spain northward in order to reach Santiago. The Roman history of this route was of keenest interest to me right from the beginning, in Seville, where relics repurposed from Italica through time were readily visible all around the city: in the royal palace, in bars, on street corners, in the Palace of the Countess of Lebrija. I'd say my main purpose for choosing this route was to learn about and soak up Roman history of this walk. I can go on and on with my enthusiasm here, but I'll diverge.

In reading placards along the way, I learned of the transhumation aspect of the Camino Real that paralleled VDLP in that it was a route for livestock movement between the north and south as seasonal temperatures gave reason for this movement. I found this intriguing and chalked it all up to learning something new about history of Spain.

Well, now with Robo's OP and dick bird's comment, I've just spent a couple of hours spiraling through varied online rabbit holes, reading and learning about transhumation in Europe. A UNESCO website has a beautiful 10min. video on transhumation in the Med. and the Alps which now gives me a visual of the roads / paths I had seen -beyond what I had read on placards- on my VDLP walk.

Perhaps my post doesn't quite fit with the sentiment of the OP, but today my VDLP pilgrimage has now swollen with richness with my new-found knowledge.
Thank you Robo and dick bird!
When I walked the Camino de Madrid, long stretches of it were marked as Via Pecuaria (for livestock movement).
20230607_082106.jpg 20230607_075830.jpg
And on the San Salvador, clearly not leading to Santiago de Compostela, were Via de la Plata signs.
20230629_102748.jpg
 
Does anyone else but me think it odd that a pilgrimage to the bones of one who may have touched the divine should be prescribed by guidebook writers, App compilers and tourist offices? I always thought, have always thought, that the purpose of pilgrimage was pilgrimage. All the other stuff is just stuff.
I would have thought so too. And once upon a time so did the cathedral and pilgrim office. But now it is not enough that you visit the tomb of the Apostle to be recognised as a pilgrim. As a pilgrim on foot unless you follow one of the cathedral's prescribed routes then your journey will not be recorded as a pilgrimage and you will not receive a Compostela. The last time I asked for a Compostela I was given a ticking-off for starting off-piste and not on an approved route. Apparently the official line is that walking someone else's line on the map really does make the difference between being a pilgrim or not... :rolleyes:
 
The oldest Christian pilgrimage routes in Spain, short local ones excepted, are Cádiz > Rome (and the secondary routes attached to it, including those joining it via Catalonia and the Eastern Pyrenees towards Perpignan) ; and Western/Northern Spain & Portugal > Rome via more or less the French Piémont Way >> Béziers, albeit not on the current French route, and its own subsidiary routes.

The newest routes in Spain are the ones leading to Fátima, as it really is only just starting to become a destination for foot pilgrimages beginning outside of Portugal -- but there's a Madrid > Fátima and a Burgos > Fátima -- though most of Burgos > Fátima is actually on the Lisbon > Rome Way, so "newest" is quite relative.

As to the history of the establishment of the various routes to Santiago with relation to the Reconquista, hard to tell. The Primitivo is not really older than the Francès, as in years when relationships were better, Iberian Muslims would not impede the passage of Christian pilgrims, so that even very early on some would take what eventually became the Francès.

The Catalan Way is quite old, as it is a route to Rome that has additionally become a Camino de Santiago and an Ignatian Way, plus a route to Montserrat which is a major pilgrimage destination in its own right. Similar is likely true of the Camino de Castilla y Aragón.

It's true anyway that the first Caminos tended to be Ways to Rome & Jerusalem walked in "reverse", so that the Roman roads that the Francès is based around would have been Ways to Rome long before they ever became a Way to Compostela -- though Lugo and Ourense would have been the "starting" points for it in Galicia.

Conversely then, that means that the newer Camino routes are those that are not sensible Ways to Rome, so ones like the Madrid, Sureste, VDLP, Português, Mozarabe and so on, despite being historic, are not as old as the Francès and Primitivo/Norte, the Catalan, and so on that are Ways of both St. Peter and St. James. Another older one is the Vasco Interior, as some pilgrims would head to Rome via Burgos > Vitoria > Irun > Hendaye > Bayonne.
If the question is which route has the first documented pilgrimage it is indeed the Primitivo, the King of Oviedo made the first recorded visit to Santiago to confirm that the grave of St James was officially accurate. His route is now called the Primitivo. He financially supported the shrine . I believe that the Camino Ingles from A’ Corunna to Santiago was probable the most used by Western Europeans due to the wine trade . With the coming of the Crusades the Camino France gained prominence.
 
A selection of Camino Jewellery
The last time I asked for a Compostela I was given a ticking-off for starting off-piste and not on an approved route
The hospitalera at the albergue in St Jean de Luz declared that I and an Australian pilgrim were tourists because we started our walk in Biarritz and skipped part of the route from Bayonne. 🙄
 
But now it is not enough that you visit the tomb of the Apostle to be recognised as a pilgrim.
That is not correct -- the VAST majority of pilgrims to the Tomb of the Apostle have not travelled to the Cathedral on any Camino.

Fulfilling the conditions as to the attribution of a Compostela is NOT what makes you a pilgrim ; but to visit the tomb of the Apostle with Christian purpose or similar purpose for the foot and other pilgrims of the Camino is what makes you a pilgrim.

Catholic Encyclopedia : Pilgrimages may be defined as journeys made to some place with the purpose of venerating it, or in order to ask there for supernatural aid, or to discharge some religious obligation.

Catholic Diocese of Sidney : A pilgrimage is a devotional journey that one undertakes to a holy or sacred site and which is often associated with a saint or religious artifice of local or international significance.

Nothing in these definitions requires a certain mode of transportation, nor any required distances, nor any prescribed itineraries.

Local pilgrimages that can just be a few K and walked in a few hours, or driven by car in 15 minutes, are pilgrimages, and those who undertake them are pilgrims.
As a pilgrim on foot unless you follow one of the cathedral's prescribed routes then your journey will not be recorded as a pilgrimage and you will not receive a Compostela. The last time I asked for a Compostela I was given a ticking-off for starting off-piste and not on an approved route.
We've talked about this, including in person, and it's clear that the individual volunteer on that occasion made a mistake.
 
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If the question is which route has the first documented pilgrimage it is indeed the Primitivo
The pilgrimage routes from Spain & Portugal to Rome and Jerusalem are centuries older than the Primitivo.
 
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The pilgrimage routes from Spain & Portugal to Rome and Jerusalem are centuries older than the Primitivo.
You may have misunderstood what howardd5 was saying. The Primitivo route is without any shadow of a doubt the earliest recorded pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela. As for defining what is or is not a pilgrimage, apart from the fact that the Roman Catholic church has no monopoly on pilgrimages or their definition, that is getting dangerously close to asserting what is or is not a pilgrim, and we all know the rules regarding that.

It is also worth reminding everyone that the chapter of Santiago cathedral has its own criteria for the issuing of a compostela, as they have a perfect right to do.
 
It is also worth reminding everyone that the chapter of Santiago cathedral has its own criteria for the issuing of a compostela, as they have a perfect right to do.
I fully accept the cathedral's right to set its own criteria for granting a Compostela. I just happen to disagree profoundly with the understanding of pilgrimage which those criteria represent. So I am no longer interested in meeting those particular conditions and receiving a Compostela at the end of my journeys.
 
If the question is which route has the first documented pilgrimage it is indeed the Primitivo, the King of Oviedo made the first recorded visit to Santiago to confirm that the grave of St James was officially accurate. His route is now called the Primitivo. He financially supported the shrine . I believe that the Camino Ingles from A’ Corunna to Santiago was probable the most used by Western Europeans due to the wine trade . With the coming of the Crusades the Camino France gained prominence.
A Coruña certainly did trade with western Europe, especially the British Isles, but was never that important as a pilgrimage route. Most of the wine imported into England came from the south of France until various wars put a stop to it after which the English aristocracy, unsurprisingly, developed a taste for ´port wine´ laced with brandy to stop it going off on the longer sea voyage from Oporto, hence the name. The vast majority of mediaeval pilgrims heading for Santiago entered Spain via France, and so followed what is now known as the Francés, but this was also an important east-west trade route. And just to set the cat amongst the pigeons, Alfonso II may have had his own good reasons for recognising those remains as being authentic.
 
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I fully accept the cathedral's right to set its own criteria for granting a Compostela. I just happen to disagree profoundly with the understanding of pilgrimage which those criteria represent. So I am no longer interested in meeting those particular conditions and receiving a Compostela at the end of my journeys.
I think I can relate to that.
 
You may have misunderstood what howardd5 was saying.
Making a counterpoint is not to misunderstand the original point. ;)
The Primitivo route is without any shadow of a doubt the earliest recorded pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela.
That has been contested by others in this very thread ; in that it's the earliest recorded Santiago pilgrimage, but that the "Primitivo" as currently laid down is not necessarily the precise route that he followed.
As for defining what is or is not a pilgrimage
I said nothing at all about what is "not" a pilgrimage.
apart from the fact that the Roman Catholic church has no monopoly on pilgrimages or their definition, that is getting dangerously close to asserting what is or is not a pilgrim, and we all know the rules regarding that.
Sorry, but as to the question of Credenciales provided or not provided by the Catholic Church in Santiago de Compostela, this is of practical pertinence to pilgrims in this place, and for their practical purposes and expectations.

The Catholic Church absolutely does have a monopoly on the provision of Compostelas to pilgrims of the Way of Saint James, so that the Catholic understanding of pilgrimage is pertinent to some particular points made in this discussion ; particularly the point that the rules for obtaining a Compostela are not what define who is or who isn't a pilgrim.

Furthermore, as the discussion is about tradition and history, matters relative to those things are not unimportant.
 
Quite true that the Primitivo laid down in 1993 is not the precise route used by medieval pilgrims. Leaving aside the question of the historical accuracy of every step on the Frances... ;)

...is there a historically based counterclaim that Oviedo was not the starting point for Alfonso II, and that he caused a church to be built in what became Santiago?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that the monastery in Corellana was not a stopping place for pilgrims from the 1100s?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that the hospital in Salas didnt originally date to 1405?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that Tineo was not mandated as a stopping point for pilgrims ( along with the monastery at Obono) since the 1200s?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that the hospital ruins on Los Hospitales are not what they claim to be?

...and Lugo was established significantly prior to any Camino.

My point? Some of the claimed history of points along what is now the Primitivo predates or co- dates the Codex. While the entire route may not be hallowed ground from the pilgrims passing by, some of it is.

The OP wanted to walk in historical steps. My humble assertion is that pieces of the Primitivo are also historical.

///stepping down from soapbox ///

;)
 
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My humble assertion is that pieces of the Primitivo are also historical.
Oh sure -- but it's still not the oldest pilgrimage route in Spain.

Routes that were first walked to Santiago some years or decades after the first pilgrims on the proto-Francès and the proto-Primitivo do not lose their historic nature from some nit-picking many Centuries later ... :)
 
If the question is which route has the first documented pilgrimage it is indeed the Primitivo, the King of Oviedo made the first recorded visit to Santiago to confirm that the grave of St James was officially accurate. His route is now called the Primitivo. He financially supported the shrine . I believe that the Camino Ingles from A’ Corunna to Santiago was probable the most used by Western Europeans due to the wine trade . With the coming of the Crusades the Camino France gained prominence.
What leads you to believe the Primitivo is the same route he followed. We know that the starting and ending points are the same, but there are many ways to get from Point A to Point B. Is there any historical record of the route he followed and the towns or villages he passed through? If not, it seems to be a stretch to assume we are following his same route.

I can certainly see that the Camino Ingles would be the most used by the English, as it asserts. I must admit that I find it hard to believe it was the most used by other Western Europeans like the Italians, the Germans, the Austrians, the Swiss, etc. It seems a little out of the way for them. I'm not sure why the coming of the Crusades would pull pilgrims from the Ingles to the Frances. It isn't like there were Moorish corsairs wreaking piracy in the Atlantic as a result of the Crusades. Or was there?
 
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Quite true that the Primitivo laid down in 1993 is not the precise route used by medieval pilgrims. Leaving aside the question of the historical accuracy of every step on the Frances... ;)

...is there a historically based counterclaim that Oviedo was not the starting point for Alfonso II, and that he caused a church to be built in what became Santiago?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that the monastery in Corellana was not a stopping place for pilgrims from the 1100s?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that the hospital in Salas didnt originally date to 1405?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that Tineo was not mandated as a stopping point for pilgrims ( along with the monastery at Obono) since the 1200s?

...is there a historically based counterclaim that the hospital ruins on Los Hospitales are not what they claim to be?

...and Lugo was established significantly prior to any Camino.

My point? Some of the claimed history of points along what is now the Primitivo predates or co- dates the Codex. While the entire route may not be hallowed ground from the pilgrims passing by, some of it is.

The OP wanted to walk in historical steps. My humble assertion is that pieces of the Primitivo are also historical.

///stepping down from soapbox ///

;)
I don't think anyone in this thread is anywhere asserting that pieces of the Primitivo are not also historical. But there is quite a distance between the assertion that the Primitivo goes through places that pilgrims at various times in history walked through and that it follows the path that Alfonso II took between Oviedo and Santiago and is thus the route of the "first pilgrimage".
 
And they started with the Crusades pushing people out of the Ingles and to the Frances as was implied?
eh, hard to properly discuss that without discussing religion, as even so many Centuries later, the discussion could get heated.

Pilgrims did nevertheless try and avoid the more dangerous routes, so yes, some English pilgrims may have chosen a longer overland route through France rather than risk encountering Moorish slavers.
 
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And they started with the Crusades pushing people out of the Ingles and to the Frances as was implied?
Nope, the Ingles and a lot of the Norte fell into disuse when Henry VIII, Cromwell and Cranmer brought about the Reformation and amongst other acts effectively banned pilgrimage. Ships had sailed from all along the southern coasts of the UK and Eire to make landfall along the Northern coast of Spain, not just Coruna but any sound harbour from Bilbao on. Pilgrims walked from where they made landfall. Coruna was a popular but expensive destination, a long voyage and little prospect of complimentary trade. Several ship owners in my home port were effectively bankrupted by the Reformation which left them without a lucrative trade.

There are records of Pilgrim ships taken by “Barbary” pirates in the Court Rolls of the 14th & 15th centuries. The lucky ones were ransomed. Others disappeared into the Ottoman economy. Having obtained their license to make pilgrimage their failure to return usually led to forfeiture of lands and titles.

That pilgrims in the Middle Ages made their way to Santiago is indisputable. That any of them did so along the modern “designated” routes other than by coincidence is, at best, unlikely

Buen Camino everyone. Whichever route you think you’re taking
 
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Ah. I found the video I was referring to above, where the presenter looks at the history of the VdlP route.


From video description: Today the entire corridor is promoted for tourism and has even become the Camino de Santiago, so that tourists are convinced of traveling a path with a notable historical entity, which is uncertain.

 
the presenter looks at the history of the VdlP route.
It is an interesting video about the history of the route construction, how much was (or wasn't) on actual Vías Romanas, how much was on vía pecuaria, etc., and some of the misconceptions about the routing of modern highways and footpaths. He says very little about pilgrim usage.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
Ah. I found the video I was referring to above, where the presenter looks at the history of the VdlP route.


From video description: Today the entire corridor is promoted for tourism and has even become the Camino de Santiago, so that tourists are convinced of traveling a path with a notable historical entity, which is uncertain.

Very interesting -- one thing, he isn't making the proper distinction between major Roman roads and minor ones ; so when he says that the Roman road is found basically between Malaga and Salamanca, this means Major Roman road.

He does suggest that the route between Salamanca and Astorga, except near Salamanca itself, should properly be called the Mozarabe, and that it only began to be properly developed by and for pilgrims, so that section would be Mediaeval not Roman.

Also, many sections of the current VDLP between Malaga and Salamanca are Mediaeval, not Roman, in their origin and construction, though sometimes its Mediaeval repairs of some broken sections. Nevertheless, some parts of that route are on the remains or the route of the Roman road.

But he suggests the actual Roman road went Salamanca > Fresno de la Ribera (not Zamora) > not sure which way but on a completely different route that did anyway go to Astorga, just eastward from the current VDLP route. I'd need to watch this great video several times !!
 
I'd always assumed that most of the caminos we now walk were originally trade routes for the tribes who lived in the areas. Where I live in England, along the edge of the South Downs Way there are numerous hill forts from way back linked by old tracks. I think we want a pilgrimage to be a route to a place of vernaration ? or of special significance to somebody ?

I'd always assumed, rightly or wrongly that the names of the routes we use today were named after the people who came along them towards Santiago. Ingles for my mob, Frances .. for the French etc...

I guess the majority of the roads are pre Roman or they would be straighter :)
 
Where I live in England, along the edge of the South Downs Way there are numerous hill forts from way back linked by old tracks. I think we want a pilgrimage to be a route to a place of vernaration ? or of special significance to somebody ?
If you want some English pilgrimage routes with a long history take a look at the Peddars Way, linking to The Ridgeway and of course the South and North Downs Ways. How else do you think all those pilgrims from Europe got to Salisbury Plain and that vast Megalithic sacramental landscape ;)
 
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The oldest way is Podiensis: it exists from the neolithic.

"The heritage days were an opportunity to carry out the unveiling ceremony of the inscription plaque of Dolmen Pech – Laglaire 2 on the UNESCO World Heritage List under the property “Les Chemins de Saint-Jacques de Compostela in France."

;-)
 
Without having watched it again, it's clear anyway that the Roman road went east of the current VDLP, crossing the river near Fresno de la Ribera, and then heading to a Roman garrison town quite far South-East of Astorga -- and that that road continued North-East through Fromista towards the Northern Coast somewhere near Santander unless I'm mistaken.

The Roman road to Astorga went from that garrison town, not from Zamora.

He talks of the current route between Salamanca and Astorga as being a Camino Real, i.e. a post-Reconquista Royal (i.e. public) road over a previous no-mans-land area between the Christian North and the previously Muslim South.

And that the VDLP between Malaga and Salamanca is a combination of Roman road, Shepherds' route, and Mediaeval rebuilding.

It's fascinating stuff -- and thanks @Robo for initiating the discussion of it !!
 
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I'd always assumed, rightly or wrongly that the names of the routes we use today were named after the people who came along them towards Santiago. Ingles for my mob, Frances .. for the French etc...
Some are named that way, for sure. Others are named for the land they pass through (e.g. Camino Aragonés). Others for where they start (Camino de Madrid). The Via de la Plata has a different naming origin, in the name of a Roman road that went along more or less the same route. Since there is no central authority for the Caminos, there isn't a lot of consistency.
 
The Via de la Plata has a different naming origin, in the name of a Roman road that went along more or less the same route.
The name is a corruption of a Mediaeval colloquial name for it, meaning something like Cobbled Road or Stoney Road.

----

I haven't found the Roman name for it yet, but I have found a more historically accurate map of the Major Roman roads in Hispania than most :

hispania-romana-min.png


The Roman road that the VDLP follows a long section of heads up to Intercatia (misspelt on the map) which today is Villanueva del Campo, where it reaches the road between Astorga and Palencia ; which is THE major road, as it leads from that point to Rome along roughly the Camino de Castilla y Aragón to Zaragoza, and from there > Lleida > near Barcelona > Girona > Perpignan etc.

This would have been the principal Hispanic Christian pilgrimage route in late Antiquity and the High Middle Ages, prior to the Muslim invasions -- and one can see that all of the roads in Northern Spain are secondary to it.

The other major pilgrimage route in that early pre-Muslim period will have been Cádiz > Sevilla > Cartagena > Valencia > Girona > Perpignan etc. Plus its coastal variant via Málaga. To this day, the local routes towards Rome from Spain congregate towards Perpignan, much in the same way that the French routes congregate near SJPP.

There's an interesting Merida > Toledo > Zaragoza etc. that some pilgrims may have followed rather than the Via Augusta.

The roads between Pamplona and Astorga correspond roughly to the Francès, but it's pretty well established that the CF follows mostly some Mediaeval roads that developed along or beside the old Roman ones ; but then similar is true throughout Western and Southern Europe for Mediaeval road networks versus the Roman ones. Also, the routes to Compostela in Galicia itself are clearly Mediaeval, not Roman.

Take note of no major Road to Finisterra ... Take note of nothing resembling either the Primitivo or the Norte -- with the caveat that this map shows none of the secondary or minor Roman roads.

Interestingly, what would become the Português centuries later was a Roman road.

Otherwise, following the Roman road South to North via Sevilla, whether from Cádiz or Málaga would have led to Salamanca > Villanueva del Campo > Palencia > Frómista then up to Flavio Briga on the North coast, which is Castro Urdiales near Bilbao. So not exactly the route of the VDLP !! Nor a Way of Saint James, except south of Salamanca, though some pilgrims will have used it South > North towards Rome, heading east from Villanueva del Campo or Merida, or North > South via Merida and/or Sevilla.

Oh, and of course this is all necessarily conjectural, as only a handful of pilgrim journals have survived from Antiquity, mostly from Gaul/France/Provence. Though the earliest recorded pilgrimage to Rome was in 216, and that pilgrimage developed strongly during the 4th Century. It is quite clear that there were Hispanic pilgrims to Rome in Antiquity. And see : https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/pilgrimages-roman "St. jerome has described the crowds of visitors to the catacombs and martyr churches in Rome (c. 365) that he witnessed as a youth (Comm. in Gal. 2; Comm. in Ezech. 45.5)."

Possibly the first recorded Hispanic pilgrim to Rome, from the same source : "The Spanish poet prudentius (348–405), in his Peri Stephanon, or verse in honor of the martyrs, spoke of the awe with which he beheld the places where the martyrs shed their blood and left innumerable relics (Hymn. 2.541–548; 11.1–2), and he described the catacombs and churches he visited, including the crypt of St. hippolytus. There, for the saint's feast (Aug. 13), vast crowds assembled, having marched from the city in processions and been joined by men, women, and children, arriving on the roads from the Alban hills, Abruzzi, Etruria, Capua, and Nola (Hymn. 11.199–216)."

The whole article is worth reading.
 
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There's an article in El Correo Gallego on this topic :


There are a couple of maps, but I like this one, not very beautiful, which shows the network of routes to Rome from a Camino perspective :

6849ff24-674c-4fc4-a7f2-643f9c841964_16-9-discover-aspect-ratio_default_0.webp

The North African Ways to Rome are particularly interesting IMO.
 
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The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I'm planning future Caminos, and have come to the conclusion that I prefer routes that have a long history and tradition of Pilgrimage. They have a different feel and energy for me somehow. Maybe it's just in my head?

The Primitivo I think was one of the first?
Others perhaps more recently created.

In searching online I was hoping to find a source that might give a brief history of the various routes.
But no luck so far.

Perhaps other Forum members might know of such a resource?
The longest tradition of pilgrimage as we understand it would be the classic French Way. That is, contemporary pilgrims doing contemporary stuff. After the revival of the Camino in the late 20th century, pilgrims were basically walking the French Way, and on the shoulder of highways (my experience in 1994).

Yes, the Primitivo was the first, but, like the Portugués, modelled itself after the French Way regarding albergues and pilgrim services.
 
I thought the Olvidado was the oldest route to Santiago…
I think the earliest description of a route commonly walked by Pilgrims was the Codex Calixtinus, and the routes it describes in Spain we now call the Aragones and the Frances. The Primitivo claims to be the oldest route, on the basis that the "first pilgrim", Alfonso II, went from Oviedo to Santiago, although I don't think the precise route he took was documented.

Other routes that are now marked and walked, have been reconstructed with various amounts of evidence. Sometimes based on pilgrim accounts.
 
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