Can Forum rules be Questioned?

[Giopomerol]

I have a small bee in my bonnet about a particular rule in this forum and I thought the best way to get it out of the bonnet was to post it here! Whether one likes it or not, the roots and existence of the pilgrimage to Santiago is in fact a Religious one. The route and it's extraordinary history speaks for itself. Many pilgrims walk the sacred (yes it is sacred) route for religious reasons and if they are like me, appreciative of the history and marvels of this sacred route, prey tell why are we not allowed to talk about religion and share some of our religious experiences? I find it slightly hypocritical that this forum exists and feeds off the backbone of a religious Route yet does not allow us to talk about our religious experiences along the way! This forum is too heavily skewed in favour of those who do the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons and denies those of us who do the Camino for religious reasons, (which is why the Camino existed in the first place ) a platform to share our thoughts! Why this hypocracy? It feels as though my kind of pilgrimage is not good enough or hip/cool enough to share? Just because a person my not be a believer why does that give them a right to censor those that are? This is why I think this rule is hypocritical and to a point, the rule is rather arrogant given the type of pilgrimage that it is!

 

[domigee]

I have a small bee in my bonnet about a particular rule in this forum and I thought the best way to get it out of the bonnet was to post it here! Whether one likes it or not, the roots and existence of the pilgrimage to Santiago is in fact a Religious one. The route and it's extraordinary history speaks for itself. Many pilgrims walk the sacred (yes it is sacred) route for religious reasons and if they are like me, appreciative of the history and marvels of this sacred route, prey tell why are we not allowed to talk about religion and share some of our religious experiences? I find it slightly hypocritical that this forum exists and feeds off the backbone of a religious Route yet does not allow us to talk about our religious experiences along the way! This forum is too heavily skewed in favour of those who do the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons and denies those of us who do the Camino for religious reasons, (which is why the Camino existed in the first place ) a platform to share our thoughts! Why this hypocracy? It feels as though my kind of pilgrimage is not good enough or hip/cool enough to share? Just because a person my not be a believer why does that give them a right to censor those that are? This is why I think this rule is hypocritical and to a point, the rule is rather arrogant given the type of pilgrimage that it is!

Wow! Hi Giopomerol,
You would so get on with my husband
I would say the reason we are not allowed to mention religion is because people ARGUE about religion and some peace has to be kept? Especially on a forum where no-one speak 'face-to-face' and words are easily miscontrued....(as we've experienced time and time again )
Religion, money and politics, those used to be the 3 subjects forbidden at the dinner table....
But I get your point and sadly, people who walk pilgrimages with a religious purpose are a minority I think... I could be wrong. See? Dicy subject!
Buen camino

 

[Giopomerol]

Hi dominée, I see you're married to a wise man!

I take your point that religion can for some be an emotive topic and therefore open to heated arguments. But if the rule exists for this reason surely the issue /rules should be about how to MANAGE the arguements rather than a blanket censoring? Besides, my point is mainly about 'religious experiences ' rather than my religious beliefs (totally different). Also, you mention that religious pilgrims are in the minority. Indeed they are and this is a good argument for less censoring. If anything we should be heard. Hearing divergent experiences makes for a more enlightened mind and mind set and a more enriched way of thinking. Pity that this forum restricts this.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

@Giopomerol thank you for raising this as it provides an opportunity to explain why, for some of us, this is an important rule. I agree 100% with your comments regarding the religious origins of the Camino, and for me it was/is still a pilgrimage walked for religious reasons even if that understanding of my motivation was clarified after I had started the first journey. But we should bear in mind that for some people brought up in the Christian faith their encounters with religion have not been happy ones, it having been a system of belief forced on them - sometimes that force taking an abusive physical form - additionally others seek to find commonality wherever they can, so despair on the rare occasions when different denominations seek to prioritise their own religious affiliations. This is definitely not an appropriate place for proselytising but you will numerous examples of people discussing their camino in religious terms. Peoples of all faiths and none contribute, support and advise one another here, so when the discussion signals a mutual desire to take further any strictly religious views it seems courteous to use the PM (private mail) function offered by the forum.

If the forum seems, in your view, to be more skewed towards those who walk for 'adventure/spiritual reasons' then that is simply an accident of demographics; some people know of the forum and tell others, it does not recruit on the basis of pilgrimage motivations. also, for many pilgrims their faith is an intensely private matter, and not for flagging up on a public forum.

But, and it is a big but, I have to take issue with you when you write that 'I find it slightly hypocritical that this forum exists and feeds off the backbone of a religious Route yet does not allow us to talk about our religious experiences along the way!' Firstly there is nothing even slightly hypocritical about the forum or the people who give of their own time to act as moderators, and as to 'feeding off the back of a religious route', well I am sure that you might wish to retract that assertion. This is a remarkable service provided by Ivar who should be respected not maligned. Look at the mission statement at the top of the page "Where past pilgrims share, and future pilgrims learn." and we are all future pilgrims are we not? The moderators have to tread a very fine line to facilitate robust but mature discussion while also being alert for threads which descend into personal abuse. I have reported some posts in the past that were simply offensive and I am glad that our moderators act so promptly - and tactfully - to make all on the forum feel welcome and safe. We may all be pilgrims but sometimes in a heated exchange of views goodwill is easily forgotten. I suggest you seek out (if you haven't already seen the it) the post by @Rebekah Scott where she reported back on a recent meeting about the future of the Camino. There is much in what she had to say that you would find heartening.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I am a Christian, and I believe the Camino is a holy road. I know people continue to discover and lose and re-discover and build their faith all along the Way.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people along the road and online whose beliefs compel them to "share the truth" with everyone else. Which so very often means "I prove with words that MY version of truth is the best/only Truth." It is futile at best, and boring and insulting at worst.
Then there are the trolls who have no faith, and find any kind of belief laughable or fodder for bitter criticism. Their writings also quickly become futile, boring, and insulting to others.
So it's best, in an open forum like this, to keep religious discussion to a minimum. Me and several other Christians here do not find that bothersome.
There are times and places for the discussion you crave -- out on the camino itself seems to me to be the ideal! Maybe you can open an online forum of your own and host discussions?

 

[Rick M]

Of course the Camino is a religiously rooted pilgrimage! We are all heading for a cathedral.

Echoing what domigee suggested though, any discussions of religion and politics are tricky. History teaches us that these frequently lead to argument rather than discussion, bad feelings for both parties, and ultimately, no resolution of the issues under discussion. Battle lines are drawn, and nobody listen's to anyone elses point of view.

I can't speak for Ivar or the moderators, who will no doubt weigh in here, but I think the intent of this forum is as an information sharing resource for those that are considering the Camino. At least, that's what I think is going on here. I know for certain that many of the members here are deeply religious people who are looking at the Camino the same way that you are, while there are also a number of adventurers as you suggest. The forum is welcoming to both groups, and everyone who falls on some other motivation as well.

If religion or politics discussions were allowed, someone would end up feeling alienated or unwelcome, and the usefulness of the forum as an information sharing resource for all would be lost.

 

[Giopomerol]

Hi Seb,

Thanks for your post. I will definitely follow up on your recommendation re the post by REBEKAH.

All my views/comments still stand - Please do not read into my comments hidden or otherwise any kind of slur toward all the good people involved in this excellent forum. My points are regarding the RULE not the people. So as to be clear: the rule is hypocritical not the people! I often think that all rules should not be set in stone. For healthy reasons they should at times be debated . Otherwise they just collect dust or at worse stifle discussion......especially if a forum develops into something different from its original roots and the rule becomes somewhat silly or obsolete.

 

[domigee]

To try and lighten up the conversation, I must tell you I shared a meal with a 'pilgrim' who complained non-stop about the Camino. (We were on the francés at the time). Turned out....he objected (seriously!) to the number of churches along the Way...."Too much in your face!" 'They're everywhere'.
I am not making this up

 

[Purple Backpack]

From my limited experience on the Forum, I have found quite bit of spiritual support and exchange, though discussion of theology is usually curbed. I am a practicing Christian and a religious pilgrim when I walk, but not Catholic. I have found the information about the Catholic faith, rituals and expectations quite helpful and interesting. I love European history so enjoy discussions that include early Church history, as well. Postings about things like this enhance my Caminos and open my mind to other cultures and beliefs. More than once, I have gone on to members' suggestions on further readings. As recently as this week, I followed links to the writings of Father Thomas Keating and St. Francis, both of which were interesting and appreciated.

When Forum members are ill, missing or suffering on their pilgrimages, or simply anxious about an upcoming trip, members offer prayers and blessings. This small gesture, coming from complete strangers around the world, is touching and reminds me that all of us are interconnected, regardless of nationality, skin color, gender or faith.

If Giopomerol were to start a Forum group on the religious aspects of pilgrimages, I would love to join a respectful discussion. After all, I can always remove myself from the group. In the meantime, I love this Forum and try not to intentionally offend anyone. Like someone else said, anything not said at a cocktail party or dinner at someone's house shouldn't be written here. Just basic manners.

 

[Gareth Griffith]

As someone posted a long, long time ago. If you don't like the beer in one pub. You find another.

 

[Giopomerol]

I am a Christian, and I believe the Camino is a holy road. I know people continue to discover and lose and re-discover and build their faith all along the Way.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people along the road and online whose beliefs compel them to "share the truth" with everyone else. Which so very often means "I prove with words that MY version of truth is the best/only Truth." It is futile at best, and boring and insulting at worst.
Then there are the trolls who have no faith, and find any kind of belief laughable or fodder for bitter criticism. Their writings also quickly become futile, boring, and insulting to others.
So it's best, in an open forum like this, to keep religious discussion to a minimum. Me and several other Christians here do not find that bothersome.
There are times and places for the discussion you crave -- out on the camino itself seems to me to be the ideal! Maybe you can open an online forum of your own and host discussions?

Hi Rebekah, SEB has referred me to a previous post of yours which I will read at a later point. Thanks for taking the time to reply. By way of clarifying, your are talking about banging on about RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. My point, as I already mentioned, is about RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES. In my book they are somewhat separate topics. I agree, as a Christian, I hate it when people bang on about their religious beliefs. I can see why rules for the former exist but for the life of me cannot see why people can talk on this forum about experiences along the Camino in a lovey dovey way but heaven forbid ( is there a pun there) should you raise a hint of a religious experience. I wish I had the time to open a forum and host a discussion, as you suggest, but my work (clinical psychologist) with a two year waiting list, prevents me!

 

[Purple Backpack]

Just curious...what religious experience discussion would be banned here? I personally would love to hear about experiences...

 

[Marc S.]

Hello. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the forum rules perfectly allow people to share their religious experiences and do not forbid people to do so. So I feel sad if the OP perceives that 'the forum does not allow to talk us about religious experiences along the way'. Because I do not think that the forum rules are meant to be interpreted this way. Forum rules are stricter about religious (and political) discussions, I agree that these can turn out of hand easily, and I agree there is a fine line between sharing experiences & starting a 'who is right' discussion. But - and I know I repeat myself - sharing religious experiences does not seem forbidden to me.

 

[Gareth Griffith]

I am of the opinion that this thread is breaking the rules already and the moderators may wish to consider closing this thread.
This is not a criticism of the moderatorts (which is a breach of Camino Rules!).

 

[Bradypus]

Although I have found the rule a little irksome now and again I think there are sound reasons behind it. Religion is a topic which for obvious reasons affects people deeply and personally. Some people have great difficulty in standing back from their personal beliefs and engaging with other opinions politely and constructively - seeing any contrary view as an attack. Many people have a poor understanding of the actual beliefs and practices of other faiths or Christians of other traditions and may misinterpret their position. So what should be a debate quickly degenerates into a slanging match. Add in the possibility of different first languages with subtleties lost in translation and very different cultural backgrounds and the whole subject can be a minefield.

 

[martin1ws]

...
If Giopomerol were to start a Forum group on the religious aspects of pilgrimages, I would love to join a respectful discussion. After all, I can always remove myself from the group. In the meantime, I love this Forum and try not to intentionally offend anyone. Like someone else said, anything not said at a cocktail party or dinner at someone's house shouldn't be written here. Just basic manners.

Yes, maybe there are possibilities to keep religious discussions out of the normal discussions AND allow religious discussions in a special form.
Possibilities may be:
* A group for religious discussions where you need to sign up
* An open part of the forum with religious discussions. E.g. next to Miscellaneous Topics
* ...

* An open part of the forum where members can link other forums with religious discussions

 

[Giopomerol]

As someone posted a long, long time ago. If you don't like the beer in one pub. You find another.

Hi Gareth, the beer is fine here.......the glass it comes in is a little dusty ...that's all. Dust can be easily removed if you so wish it.

 

[martin1ws]

Hello. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the forum rules perfectly allow people to share their religious experiences and do not forbid people to do so. ....

If I read "2) No discussions on religion, bull fights , sports and politics. These topics "always" end in a fight, so let's not go there. It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given."
[ see: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/forum-rules.20973/ ]

I would think that I am not allowed to share my religious experiences on a future camino. But English is not my first language and so I do not really know.

What say the moderators? Is sharing of religious experiences allowed? Is sharing my experiences "starting a discussion"?

I am of the opinion that this thread is breaking the rules already and the moderators may wish to consider closing this thread....

Is this discussion here in the thread not allowed because of "7) If you do not agree on a moderator decision please contact the moderator or @ivar in a Private Conversation. All disagreements should be handled in Private Conversations and not in public."?
[I would say this discussion is not dis-agreeing but a suggestion to improve the forum. Again I do not know it because English is not my first language]

What say the moderators? Is this thread allowed?

 

[Giopomerol]

I am very appreciative of people's comments on this thread but please understand that my point is about RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES along the Camino. My point is not about RELIGOUS BELIEFS. I understand that there are rules (which I agree with ) for the latter but prey tell why for the former? This is my issue. The two are actually very different.

 

[m108]

Religious experiences (if they are) are something very, very personal, intimate. I do not know what it would look like if I wrote, for example: on the fifth day, I suddenly felt the presence of God at once (this is hypothetical, caricatured). And then (because this is a forum) people would discuss my religious experience. In different ways. I really do not need this, no discussion, and no confirmation for any valuable experience. Since the essence of the experience is the EXPERIENCE, if it were to be described in words, you would say everything, write it, read it, and no religious practice would be needed.
If someone is lucky to have a religious / spiritual experience, he probably falls deep within and does not expose it to a discussion at the forum. Of course, that's just my opinion and my view.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

To try and lighten up the conversation, I must tell you I shared a meal with a 'pilgrim' who complained non-stop about the Camino. (We were on the francés at the time). Turned out....he objected (seriously!) to the number of churches along the Way...."Too much in your face!" 'They're everywhere'.
I am not making this up

Brilliant @domigee ! That certainly brightened my day. It rather raises the question of how he felt about the Camino terminating at the cathedral in SdC and those pesky 'Christian-themed' sellos in his darned 'pilgrim's' passport. Then of course I would be curious as to whether he was going to present himself at the Pilgrim Office for a compostela.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

If someone is lucky to have a religious / spiritual experience, he probably falls deep within and does not expose it to a discussion at the forum. Of course, that's just my opinion and my view.

That is a very wise observation @m108. I did, then shared it on the forum albeit obliquely and immediately regretted it for having made public what was so deeply personal - my daughter would describe it as a case of oversharing.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

When pilgrims are hanging out in the plaza on Sunday morning I often invite them to come inside the church and join us for the Mass. More often than not, I'm told some variation of "I'm a pilgrim. I don't have time for church."
Errrm...

 

[cher99840]

I appreciate the rules and the moderators who work to enforce them. There are plenty of unfiltered areas of discussion online these days for those who seek less restraint in subject matter.

 

[C clearly]

I have trouble understanding what "religious experience" does not involve "religious belief."

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I am very appreciative of people's comments on this thread but please understand that my point is about RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES along the Camino. My point is not about RELIGOUS BELIEFS. I understand that there are rules (which I agree with ) for the latter but prey tell why for the former? This is my issue. The two are actually very different.

Give us an example of what you would like to share. I often read about someone's impression of a hostal organised blessing, or the pilgrim blessing here and there. I very often read that people are sending or offering prayers to others. And we have had some very interesting andcivilised converstations that were more theological, and the differences between what communion means to Catholics and other Christians, etc.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I have a small bee in my bonnet about a particular rule in this forum and I thought the best way to get it out of the bonnet was to post it here! Whether one likes it or not, the roots and existence of the pilgrimage to Santiago is in fact a Religious one. The route and it's extraordinary history speaks for itself. Many pilgrims walk the sacred (yes it is sacred) route for religious reasons and if they are like me, appreciative of the history and marvels of this sacred route, prey tell why are we not allowed to talk about religion and share some of our religious experiences? I find it slightly hypocritical that this forum exists and feeds off the backbone of a religious Route yet does not allow us to talk about our religious experiences along the way! This forum is too heavily skewed in favour of those who do the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons and denies those of us who do the Camino for religious reasons, (which is why the Camino existed in the first place ) a platform to share our thoughts! Why this hypocracy? It feels as though my kind of pilgrimage is not good enough or hip/cool enough to share? Just because a person my not be a believer why does that give them a right to censor those that are? This is why I think this rule is hypocritical and to a point, the rule is rather arrogant given the type of pilgrimage that it is!

Hello , you are already a member for almost one year.
Why question this forum rule just now , bit late don't you think.

Wish you well,Peter.

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

I support the question of Anemone. Giving examples could very much clarify what you mean, which of your experiences could not be shared. Like C. Clearly I don't see how you can separate religious experiences ( other than messages like "I went to the mass at ten o'clock")trom religious believes

 

[martin1ws]

I appreciate the rules and the moderators who work to enforce them. There are plenty of unfiltered areas of discussion online these days for those who seek less restraint in subject matter.

But I think there would be a difference between a religious discussion in a randomilly chosen unfiltered area in the internet and a religious discussion with the part of the Camino-community here that wants this discussion (in a special group or a special part of this forum).

If the rule would be weakened to "religious discussions only here in this part of the forum or in this group"...
then for the part of the community, that is not interested in religous discussions, nothing would change... there would be only one (religious) part of the forum which they would not read or there would be a (religious) group they would not sign on.

 

[Giopomerol]

Religious experiences (if they are) are something very, very personal, intimate. I do not know what it would look like if I wrote, for example: on the fifth day, I suddenly felt the presence of God at once (this is hypothetical, caricatured). And then (because this is a forum) people would discuss my religious experience. In different ways. I really do not need this, no discussion, and no confirmation for any valuable experience. Since the essence of the experience is the EXPERIENCE, if it were to be described in words, you would say everything, write it, read it, and no religious practice would be needed.
If someone is lucky to have a religious / spiritual experience, he probably falls deep within and does not expose it to a discussion at the forum. Of course, that's just my opinion and my view.

Hello , you are already a member for almost one year.
Why question this forum rule just now , bit late don't you think.

Wish you well,Peter.

hi Peter, I've had the pleasure of reading many of your posts over the past year. To answer your question; possibly due to my professional training, initially I'm more of an observer- when I feel that clearly there seems to be an area that could do with some discussion, and I feel confident about it, then I will raise it. Mind you I have not been able to get on this site all the time as my work takes me to third world countries with poor internet access which means I prioritize things. You also ask why raise it now? In this instance, my thinking is 'better late than never'. In any case, I don't think you should read too much into the date of membership and a persons post. I really cannot see how that correlates into anything constructive in this instance.

I too wish you well and I will continue reading your insightful posts when I get the opportunity.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I just stole this feom another thread.

"For the Family of the Departed, my prayers to You All in your loss and grieving. A special prayer is given for his Spirit".

Posts like this one are typical here.

To me, the mention of prayers and Spirit, it borders on religious content. I also wonder if it is something the deceased would have appreciated or cringed at.

But so be it, the Forum does say it allows some wiggle room.

 

[kelleymac]

I have been asked to give a talk about the Camino at my parish in a few months. (I am a Roman Catholic.) And I've been reflecting how I can convey how the Camino affected my faith-- Yes, it's very deep and very personal and I am hoping I don't end up in tears in the middle of my presentation. -- But when I wondered if others had similar experience to my own, or walked initially because of their faith, I turned away from this forum to a face book page to ask others who have walked. There, I was heartened and very moved by the responses I received. Faith and growth of faith does not in this forum seem to be prominent on the Camino. Not so elsewhere. In setting aside religion and faith this forum remains in one way open, but in another way skewed as people's religious experiences are muffled.

 

[alaskadiver]

I am a Christian, and I believe the Camino is a holy road. I know people continue to discover and lose and re-discover and build their faith all along the Way.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people along the road and online whose beliefs compel them to "share the truth" with everyone else. Which so very often means "I prove with words that MY version of truth is the best/only Truth." It is futile at best, and boring and insulting at worst.
Then there are the trolls who have no faith, and find any kind of belief laughable or fodder for bitter criticism. Their writings also quickly become futile, boring, and insulting to others.
So it's best, in an open forum like this, to keep religious discussion to a minimum. Me and several other Christians here do not find that bothersome.
There are times and places for the discussion you crave -- out on the camino itself seems to me to be the ideal! Maybe you can open an online forum of your own and host discussions?

Here is an example of why religion isn't discussed.
"Trolls who have no faith" says this member.
So if you are a nonbeliever you are a Troll? Quite insulting to those who choose not to follow a religion or faith.

 

[Bradypus]

Here is an example of why religion isn't discussed.
"Trolls who have no faith" says this member.
So if you are a nonbeliever you are a Troll? Quite insulting to those who choose not to follow a religion or faith.

Quoting only part of the sentence is not helpful or fair. Missing out the qualifying part which restricts the comment to those who start from a lack of belief but use that as a platform to deride people of faith. Rebekah is more than capable of defending herself but I think your remark is unjust.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Here is an example of why religion isn't discussed.
"Trolls who have no faith" says this member.
So if you are a nonbeliever you are a Troll? Quite insulting to those who choose not to follow a religion or faith.

No, there is no coma between the two words. "Trolls, who have no faith" would be implying that those who have no faith are trolls. The way it is written it basically says "of the trolls, those who also do not have faith ..."

 

[Giopomerol]

I would like to share an experience, to give an example. I do this for those who have asked. I have filtered it somewhat to comply with current community rules and not to offend what appears to be some people sensibilities . This experience comes from my diary and I only share it as an example. Remember, my real issue is why we are censored on religous experiences. I apologize for the length and the fact I have had to edit lots out. But I believe you will get my drift.

From my diary| (edited)
A poignant turning point for me was when I took a 6 kilometre detour to visit the church of Saint Mary of Eunate, a 12th century fascinating Romanesque octagonal church. Despite being en route to Santiago, the church is literally in the middle of no-where. Very few Pilgrims visit as it's an extra ......round walk to get back on track (and believe me its a huge decision to make)! It was built by the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem (knights Hospitaller) and used as a hostel and hospital for Pilgrims. Pilgrims from the 12th century would go there to rest as the church had mystical powers that would physically energise you for the path ahead. This latter point was unknown to me prior to the visit. I had already walked 28 kilometres in 35 degree heat to get there. I was weary and in pain and cross with myself for deciding to take the long detour. I was also at a low ebb and due to the pain in my feet, doubts were creeping in as to whether I could actually make it to Santiago let alone Finnister. So I sat there resting, holding back tears and trying to ease the pain in my entire body especially my feet and back. Out of nowhere a man came and sat next to me, put his hand on my shoulder and said here you will be energised. Just close your eyes and listen to the silence. He then got up, wished me a bon Camino and left. I didn't think much of it other than he was a kind man trying to encourage me. I was more startled than anything. I did heed his advice. Closed my eyes and just rested, enjoying the coolness and soundless atmosphere. When I opened my eyes I didn't feel any different but was struck by how the ceiling seemed to change color. I know, my eyes closed for such a long time was playing tricks on me. I needed to focus before heading off.

When I came out of the church I got a complete shock. I was supposed to have a limp, my shoulders where supposed to be painful as should my feet. The paralysis I had every time I got up from a chair was not there. What, How come?

The following day I was not walking but literally running and for the first time during my camino actually walked 44 kilometres, the most in one day thus far ( in 38 degree heat). And it continued, with the proceeding morning waking at 5:30 am eager to start walking what I knew was a difficult 38 kilometer mostly uphill path. I did it without experiencing pain and could have walked more had it not been for the intense heat. I just couldn't understand where this energy was coming from. Then it dawned on me that 2 days prior I was in the magical surrounds of Saint Mary! Since then along the Camino people nicknamed me speedy Gonzalez! I really don't care if people laugh or think it weird but there was something there that I cannot explain and that 'something' did energise me etc. Etc (read that as compiling to community rules). Hope this helps!

 

[NualaOC]

Hi @Giopomerol, if you read rule no.2 in it's entirety, you'll see that it also says: It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given.

In practice, the moderators give much more than a little leeway on this point. You might have a hard job finding concrete evidence to support the premise of your argument.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

And who said you could not write about this, that kt went against the rules?

I once had a vision on the Frances. Early rainy morning. I was wearing my glasses and they kept getting fogged up, it was all a blur. Going up a hill through the woods, I saw to my left what looked likea woman wearing a blue habit with white veil. An apparation was the only thing that came to mind. Until I cleaned my glasses and saw it was two road signs, on a lost, one on top of the other, indicating the road up ahead. The top one was mostly whote and triangular, which made it look like a vwiled head, while the bottom one was rectangular and larger, looking like a blue habit to me.

Driving to the cottage one evening I got terribly spooked by the huge orange moon, hoveing just above the horizon. I understood immediately why so many civilisations made the planet deities and did not want to upset them. I was really spooked.

 

[alaskadiver]

No, there is no coma between the two words. "Trolls, who have no faith" would be implying that those who have no faith are trolls. The way it is written it basically says "of the trolls, those who also do not have faith ..."

My point is that this is how religious arguments start. Thus the reason for the rule. I'm am unwatching this thread now. It's going nowhere I care to follow moderator can sort this out on their own.

 

[domigee]

When pilgrims are hanging out in the plaza on Sunday morning I often invite them to come inside the church and join us for the Mass. More often than not, I'm told some variation of "I'm a pilgrim. I don't have time for church."
Errrm...

I agree with them, church seems to take up most of my Sundays !

(This is a JOKE! Or intended as such )

 

[Giopomerol]

Here is an example of why religion isn't discussed.
"Trolls who have no faith" says this member.
So if you are a nonbeliever you are a Troll? Quite insulting to those who choose not to follow a religion or faith.

Hi alaskadiver. With all due respect I think you misread 58926. The point is that if religion comes up, then the trolls seem to come out of the woodwork. Hope this clarifies.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

My point is that this is how religious arguments start. Thus the reason for the rule.

No, there was nothing in Rebecca's post saying, and I quote you:
" So if you are a nonbeliever you are a Troll? Quite insulting to those who choose not to follow a religion or faith".

Rebekkah used punctuation in a way that she did not say what you are accusing her off.

 

[Giopomerol]

No, there was nothing in Rebecca's post saying, and I quote you:
" So if you are a nonbeliever you are a Troll? Quite insulting to those who choose not to follow a religion or faith".

Rebekkah used punctuation in a way that she did not say what you are accusing her off.

Hi Anemine, yes, you are right. Thanks. I misread the quotation marks!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Hope this clarifies.

For me, it does not.

 

[domigee]

Brilliant @domigee ! That certainly brightened my day. It rather raises the question of how he felt about the Camino terminating at the cathedral in SdC and those pesky 'Christian-themed' sellos in his darned 'pilgrim's' passport. Then of course I would be curious as to whether he was going to present himself at the Pilgrim Office for a compostela.

Ah. There is an end to that story ... I wasn't feeling great during that meal (had been bitten by fleas ) so I left the conversation to the other pilgrims. However, I did talk to him afterwards and he raved about walking in the Lake district and Scotland, sooooo much better than all this 'churchy stuff'. So (like the other pilgrims before me) I gently reminded him what this pilgrimage was about and added that maybe, if he objected to it that much, he would be better off sticking to walking in the UK instead? Why make yourself miserable and angry? (Because he was soooo angry).
Lo and behold, the following morning, he thanked me and said he was taking the first flight home. He also gave me his spare rubber tips for the walking poles....
I'm cutting a long story short but basically that was it.
I'll never know if I did wrong talking to him and saying what I said, he's been in my thoughts often.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

My point is that this is how religious arguments start. Thus the reason for the rule. I'm am unwatching this thread now. It's going nowhere I care to follow moderator can sort this out on their own.

It's not always the believers whose imaginations carry them away!

I did not call all non-believers "trolls." To take that as such really is unfair and childish.
You see insult where there clearly is none, but a comma is enough to affirm your sense of victimhood, even without any input from the OP. Your mind is made up, and now you're taking your toys and going home.

And yes, it's this kind of hypersensitivity that informs the wise "no religious discussion" rule. I am all for it.

 

[kelleymac]

When pilgrims are hanging out in the plaza on Sunday morning I often invite them to come inside the church and join us for the Mass. More often than not, I'm told some variation of "I'm a pilgrim. I don't have time for church."
Errrm...

Hi Rebekah-- Keep welcoming people in! --Years ago, during my decade or so away from the RC Church, a co-worker invited me to come to mass with him at lunch break-- there was a church right across the street. I laughed him off rather derisively-- but his invitation stayed with me. Almost every lunch hour it occurred to me that I could go to mass-- and after a few years, I finally did.

 

[fraluchi]

According to statistics available from Santiago de Compostela's pilgrims' office, more than 40% of registered pilgrims state to have done their pilgrimage for religious reasons. Most of them know, and have experienced, that when one starts a discussion on "religion", most of the time there is no happy ending. This may be one of the reasons why to-day's topic has such varied reactions and could therefore justify a Forum rule. With possible exceptions, according to the spirit of our Forum.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

a co-worker invited me to come to mass with him at lunch break-- there was a church right across the street. Almost every lunch hour it occurred to me that I could go to mass-- and after a few years, I finally did.

Religious or not, a great way to spend the lunch break, rather than eating a sandwich at your desk. Guilty of that .

 

[Anemone del Camino]

According to statistics available from Santiago de Compostela's pilgrims' office, more than 40% of registered pilgrims state to have done their pilgrimage for religious reasons. .

When did "religious"become a category.

I always thought it was religious/spirtitual, which also means "finding my self", "working on my burnout, divorce, wanting to strangle my ungrateful brats"?

As long as those two categories are combined, the Cathedral will rack up the the stats it wants.

And those really doing this as a pilgrimage, for their faith, yes, institutionalised faith, will get diluted, and eventually just a side concern.

 

[fraluchi]

When did "religious"become a category.[..]

Ah, that might be a question to be answered by the "powers that be" of the Pilgrims' Office organization.

 

[Giopomerol]

It's not always the believers whose imaginations carry them away!

I did not call all non-believers "trolls." To take that as such really is unfair and childish.
You see insult where there clearly is none, but a comma is enough to affirm your sense of victimhood, even without any input from the OP. Your mind is made up, and now you're taking your toys and going home.

And yes, it's this kind of hypersensitivity that informs the wise "no religious discussion" rule. I am all for it.

Rebekah, I have started reading some of your posts. You are a wise women indeed and you seem to have bucket loads of empathy. The latter is a wonderful gift. But please dont be disheartened by posts such as Alaskadiver. It's these kind of posts that have hidden agendas. The hidden agenda is to stifle discussion on anything religious and feeds into the hands of moderators and reinforces the view that religious discussion is a no go area. I'm surprised with the lack of enthusiasm posted here. Out of 40 comments there are just 2 negative ones. Should this be a reason to censor discussion on religious experience? No, of course not! I am not a defeatist by nature nor pessimistic in outlook or outcome. I hope you are too!

 

[HedaP]

Would like to say this thread, including the illuminations of various red herring, has been a good, thought provoking start to my Sunday morning. Thank you

 

[Giopomerol]

When did "religious"become a category.

I always thought it was religious/spirtitual, which also means "finding my self", "working on my burnout, divorce, wanting to strangle my ungrateful brats"?

As long as those two categories are combined, the Cathedral will rack up the the stats it wants.

And those really doing this as a pilgrimage, for their faith, yes, institutionalised faith, will get diluted, and eventually just a side concern.

I can confirm RELIGIOUS is a category. I can also confirm RELIGOUS AND SPIRITUAL is another separate category. Hope this helps and not disappoint you that RELIGOUS has its own separate category. Incidentally, it is also first on the list i.e. Considered important by the powers to be.

 

[Marc S.]

And yes, it's this kind of hypersensitivity that informs the wise "no religious discussion" rule

See what you mean here. But it seems to me that a similar hypersensitivity regularly occurs to more mundane issues, such as the need for doing daily laundry or the desirable weight of a backpack. As a non-practicing atheist, I do hope that people will share their religious experiences on this forum if they wish to do so, as I find it interesting to read them.

 

[Giopomerol]

See what you mean here. But it seems to me that a similar hypersensitivity regularly occurs to more mundane issues, such as the need for doing daily laundry or the desirable weight of a backpack. As a non-practicing atheist, I do hope that people will share their religious experiences on this forum if they wish to do so, as I find it interesting to read them.

Hi Marc. I just want to say I love your comment...'a non-practicing atheist' Put a well needed smile on my face! Is it your own quote? Can I use it from time to time?

 

[Tigger]

Would like to say this thread, including the illuminations of various red herring, has been a good, thought provoking start to my Sunday morning. Thank you

Interesting,
ironically, in my opinion it has become a classic example of why there is such a forum rule.

 

[Giopomerol]

Interesting,
ironically, in my opinion it has become a classic example of why there is such a forum rule.

Hi Tigger.

Can you help me out, where out of all these positive comments and interesting discussion points do you see why there is such a forum rule? Incidentally, if you've been following this thread carefully, you will see that most of us have no issue about censoring people who bang on about RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. The issue here is why censor people who discuss RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES along the Camino. its becoming more clear that moderators give some room for the latter and one hopes this can encourage more RELIGOUS pilgrims to open up rather than have a forum constantly hijacked by other?

 

[JabbaPapa]

I have a small bee in my bonnet about a particular rule in this forum and I thought the best way to get it out of the bonnet was to post it here! Whether one likes it or not, the roots and existence of the pilgrimage to Santiago is in fact a Religious one. The route and it's extraordinary history speaks for itself. Many pilgrims walk the sacred (yes it is sacred) route for religious reasons and if they are like me, appreciative of the history and marvels of this sacred route, prey tell why are we not allowed to talk about religion and share some of our religious experiences? I find it slightly hypocritical that this forum exists and feeds off the backbone of a religious Route yet does not allow us to talk about our religious experiences along the way! This forum is too heavily skewed in favour of those who do the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons and denies those of us who do the Camino for religious reasons, (which is why the Camino existed in the first place ) a platform to share our thoughts! Why this hypocracy? It feels as though my kind of pilgrimage is not good enough or hip/cool enough to share? Just because a person my not be a believer why does that give them a right to censor those that are? This is why I think this rule is hypocritical and to a point, the rule is rather arrogant given the type of pilgrimage that it is!

You ask a fundamental question, and yet the answer is that yes indeed, in this forum anyway, the discussion of the religious element of the Way of Saint James must be kept minimal.

Not because it's somehow not fundamental to the Truth of the Way, but because life is delicate and needs to be cared for.

 

[Anniesantiago]

No, there is no coma between the two words. "Trolls, who have no faith" would be implying that those who have no faith are trolls. The way it is written it basically says "of the trolls, those who also do not have faith ..."

See? A perfect example of how a person's words can be twisted and an argument begins.
When you cannot see a person's body language and you choose to put their words in a box of your own liking, problems happen.

It's a good rule, in my opinion.
No religion, politics or sports.
We have that rule in our own family to keep the peace.

I AM curious what exact experience the OP tried to share and was banned from?

 

[Anniesantiago]

I also see the OP has never walked the Camino, and has posted only 22 times.
So I wonder why this sudden interest in what goes on in this forum?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I also see the OP has never walked the Camino, and has posted only 22 times.
So I wonder why this sudden interest in what goes on in this forum?

Well, he said he did, and described it.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I am a Christian, and I believe the Camino is a holy road. I know people continue to discover and lose and re-discover and build their faith all along the Way.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people along the road and online whose beliefs compel them to "share the truth" with everyone else. Which so very often means "I prove with words that MY version of truth is the best/only Truth." It is futile at best, and boring and insulting at worst.
Then there are the trolls who have no faith, and find any kind of belief laughable or fodder for bitter criticism. Their writings also quickly become futile, boring, and insulting to others.
So it's best, in an open forum like this, to keep religious discussion to a minimum. Me and several other Christians here do not find that bothersome.
There are times and places for the discussion you crave -- out on the camino itself seems to me to be the ideal! Maybe you can open an online forum of your own and host discussions?

eh, Bekkah, sorry but I cannot share your pessimism

There is a Christian Beauty in even the most atheist practices of the Way

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Ah, that might be a question to be answered by the "powers that be" of the Pilgrims' Office organization.

Seriously, is it notcombined with the ambiguous "spiritual"? I don't recall religious wver being a stand alone category, which is something I would like to see.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, he said he did, and described it.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

... don't be disheartened by posts such as Alaskadiver. It's these kind of posts that have hidden agendas. The hidden agenda is to stifle discussion on anything religious

Now, THAT is also unfair. Whatever goodwill you may have earned with some of your earlier posts you are losing with this one...

 

[Tigger]

Hi Tigger.

Can you help me out, where out of all these positive comments and interesting discussion points do you see why there is such a forum rule?

Hi Tigger.

Can you help me out, where out of all these positive comments and interesting discussion points do you see why there is such a forum rule?

This thread may be 'interesting', however it is not positive. This topic is intrinsically divisive. You have accused the forum (not the people, though I don't know what a forum is except the writings of people) of hypocrisy. You are splitting hairs on your 'opinion' that there is a difference between writing about 'religious' experiences and beliefs.
As an example, I will comment on the example of what you would like to do on here, with your lovely personal story.

On such a forum as this, your experience as stated is likely to get one of four replies.


1. The religious would say 'how amazing' and affirm their previous religious belief.
2. The non-practicing atheists would find explanations for your 'religious' experiences affirming their previous lack of religious belief.
3. No comment - people either minding their own business or not wanting to get involved either way.
4. Possible trolling which is never pleasant.

What would be served by this? You are either preaching to the choir, inciting different opinions, which would probably upset you, or if people ignored your story, what is the point?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I can confirm RELIGIOUS is a category. I can also confirm RELIGOUS AND SPIRITUAL is another separate category. Hope this helps and not disappoint you that RELIGOUS has its own separate category. Incidentally, it is also first on the list i.e. Considered important by the powers to be.

Where do you see is? I cannot find that on the Pilgrim Office website.

 

[Giopomerol]

See? A perfect example of how a person's words can be twisted and an argument begins.
When you cannot see a person's body language and you choose to put their words in a box of your own liking, problems happen.

It's a good rule, in my opinion.
No religion, politics or sports.
We have that rule in our own family to keep the peace.

I AM curious what exact experience the OP tried to share and was banned from?

Oh I see out of 59 discussions so far, both adult and mature, 2, yes just two have been irritating and for this reason we have the rule? By the way, as I now start to sound like a broken record, no-one disputes the rule about RELIGIOUS BELEIFS but why RELIGOUS EXPERIENCES along the way? That is the real reason why I created this thread and want to make sure we stay focused on this issue.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Oh I see out of 59 discussions so far, both adult and mature, 2, yes just two have been irritating and for this reason we have the rule? By the way, as I now start to sound like a broken record, no-one disputes the rule about RELIGIOUS BELEIFS but why RELIGOUS EXPERIENCES along the way? That is the real reason why I created this thread and want to make sure we stay focused on this issue.

Did you try to post something and have someone tell you that you could not post it? Lots of people have posted religious and/or miraculous occurrences on here in the past. Me included. Why are you so upset?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Interesting,
ironically, in my opinion it has become a classic example of why there is such a forum rule.

His goodwill points quickly going down the drain...

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Did you try to post something and have someone tell you that you could not post it? Lots of people have posted religious and/or miraculous occurrences on here in the past. Me included. Why are you so upset?

I asked the question... did not get a response...

 

[Giopomerol]

I also see the OP has never walked the Camino, and has posted only 22 times.
So I wonder why this sudden interest in what goes on in this forum?

I am the OP who you are referring too. I have walked the Camino 3 times. I have posted only 22 times. Dear me. I had not realized that quantity of posts is more important than quality? I will keep that in mind in future in oder to gain forum respect. I assume you have read this thread. If so, I need not make any other comment to your post.

 

[Bradypus]

By the way, as I now start to sound like a broken record, no-one disputes the rule about RELIGIOUS BELEIFS but why RELIGOUS EXPERIENCES along the way?

As several people have commented already you do not make it clear what the distinction between these two concepts is - or how someone can perceive an experience to be "religious" without reference to their beliefs. Simply repeating the phrases and using capitals for emphasis does not help others to understand your point.

 

[Marc S.]

On such a forum as this, your experience as stated is likely to get one of four replies.
1. The religious would say 'how amazing' and affirm their previous religious belief.
2. The non-practicing atheists would find explanations for your 'religious' experiences affirming their previous lack of religious belief.
3. No comment - people either minding their own business or not wanting to get involved either way.
4. Possible trolling which is never pleasant.

What would be served by this? You are either preaching to the choir, inciting different opinions, which would probably upset you, or if people ignored your story, what is the point?

Agree about the four possible replies. But lets be fair. If I post that it is absolutely essential to bring a poncho on the camino, the replies will fit into something similar to these four categories. (approval, non-approval, no comment, and trolling)

Oh dear. Cant help but thinking about the Fawlthy Towers "Germans" episode. "Don't mention the war!" Just replace war by religion.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

As several people have commented already you do not make it clear what the distinction between these two concepts is - or how someone can perceive an experience to be "religious" without reference to their beliefs. Simply repeating the phrases and using capitals for emphasis does not help others to understand your point.

To be fair, the OP did tell the story of feeling beaten up in Eunate, and a ,an touching him kn the shoulder, and then feeling energised all the way to Santiago. Religious experience? ... But yes, caps don't help.

 

[Giopomerol]

This thread may be 'interesting', however it is not positive. This topic is intrinsically divisive. You have accused the forum (not the people, though I don't know what a forum is except the writings of people) of hypocrisy. You are splitting hairs on your 'opinion' that there is a difference between writing about 'religious' experiences and beliefs.
As an example, I will comment on the example of what you would like to do on here, with your lovely personal story.

On such a forum as this, your experience as stated is likely to get one of four replies.


1. The religious would say 'how amazing' and affirm their previous religious belief.
2. The non-practicing atheists would find explanations for your 'religious' experiences affirming their previous lack of religious belief.
3. No comment - people either minding their own business or not wanting to get involved either way.
4. Possible trolling which is never pleasant.

What would be served by this? You are either preaching to the choir, inciting different opinions, which would probably upset you, or if people ignored your story, what is the point?

Thanks Tigger. I see your point. I do take issue with the splitting of hairs. I just don't see it that way. But your point is well taken. Overall, the reason I started this thread is because those of us who are religious and willing to discuss RELIGOUS EXPERIENCES get a raw deal in this forum. I,m not asking for anything other than an adult, mature discussion to highlight this. So far so good. I have however asserted myself here when people start to character assasinat me with regards to the few posts I have contributed and the like. These are unnecessary diversions. I have also made sure, to the best of my ability to stay on topic. By the way, this discussion is not about preaching........no one on this thread has done so. It's just a discussion! I have felt it to be positive and surely for me anyway, that's a good thing.

 

[JabbaPapa]

This thread may be 'interesting', however it is not positive. This topic is intrinsically divisive. You have accused the forum (not the people, though I don't know what a forum is except the writings of people) of hypocrisy. You are splitting hairs on your 'opinion' that there is a difference between writing about 'religious' experiences and beliefs.

I don't think so, but you've still pinpointed the problem as such.

These are questions to be raised on the Camino, not anonymously online.

 

[Giopomerol]

Where do you see is? I cannot find that on the Pilgrim Office website.

No, not the website. Go to the Pilgrims office, the sheet is there!

 

[Avromal]

I would like to share an experience, to give an example. I do this for those who have asked. I have filtered it somewhat to comply with current community rules and not to offend what appears to be some people sensibilities . This experience comes from my diary and I only share it as an example. Remember, my real issue is why we are censored on religous experiences. I apologize for the length and the fact I have had to edit lots out. But I believe you will get my drift.

From my diary| (edited)
A poignant turning point for me was when I took a 6 kilometre detour to visit the church of Saint Mary of Eunate, a 12th century fascinating Romanesque octagonal church. Despite being en route to Santiago, the church is literally in the middle of no-where. Very few Pilgrims visit as it's an extra ......round walk to get back on track (and believe me its a huge decision to make)! It was built by the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem (knights Hospitaller) and used as a hostel and hospital for Pilgrims. Pilgrims from the 12th century would go there to rest as the church had mystical powers that would physically energise you for the path ahead. This latter point was unknown to me prior to the visit. I had already walked 28 kilometres in 35 degree heat to get there. I was weary and in pain and cross with myself for deciding to take the long detour. I was also at a low ebb and due to the pain in my feet, doubts were creeping in as to whether I could actually make it to Santiago let alone Finnister. So I sat there resting, holding back tears and trying to ease the pain in my entire body especially my feet and back. Out of nowhere a man came and sat next to me, put his hand on my shoulder and said here you will be energised. Just close your eyes and listen to the silence. He then got up, wished me a bon Camino and left. I didn't think much of it other than he was a kind man trying to encourage me. I was more startled than anything. I did heed his advice. Closed my eyes and just rested, enjoying the coolness and soundless atmosphere. When I opened my eyes I didn't feel any different but was struck by how the ceiling seemed to change color. I know, my eyes closed for such a long time was playing tricks on me. I needed to focus before heading off.

When I came out of the church I got a complete shock. I was supposed to have a limp, my shoulders where supposed to be painful as should my feet. The paralysis I had every time I got up from a chair was not there. What, How come?

The following day I was not walking but literally running and for the first time during my camino actually walked 44 kilometres, the most in one day thus far ( in 38 degree heat). And it continued, with the proceeding morning waking at 5:30 am eager to start walking what I knew was a difficult 38 kilometer mostly uphill path. I did it without experiencing pain and could have walked more had it not been for the intense heat. I just couldn't understand where this energy was coming from. Then it dawned on me that 2 days prior I was in the magical surrounds of Saint Mary! Since then along the Camino people nicknamed me speedy Gonzalez! I really don't care if people laugh or think it weird but there was something there that I cannot explain and that 'something' did energise me etc. Etc (read that as compiling to community rules). Hope this helps!

Hi Giopomerol. I'm one of those who did the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons as opposed to religious reasons. The experience you have described is one that I personally would have absolutely no objection to reading in this forum. It is a wonderfully written desciption of what you experienced on the Camino, and to be perfectly honest, something I would expect people to write about. However, when we get into debate about religion, for me it starts to get away from the intent and purpose of why this forum exists. My two cents worth.

All the best,

Mal.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

No, not the website. Go to the Pilgrims office, the sheet is there!

Brownie points further dunked! Unless you can show me a photo. The Officina hands people the same document for religious and spiritual motivation. @t2andreo , want to chime in... ? Appologies for dragging you in.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

... because those of us who are religious and willing to discuss RELIGOUS EXPERIENCES get a raw deal in this forum.
...
people start to character assasinat me with regards to the few posts I have contributed and the like.
.

"Toro"! You were ask by a few to give an example to what had been censored, and noone brought out the garlic when you shared your experience.

And the fact that we are still at this hours after your first post goes to show discussion is possible.

 

[Giopomerol]

Brownie points further dunked! Unless you can show me a photo. The Officina hands people the same document for religious and spiritual motivation. @t2andreo , want to chime in... ? Appologies for dragging you in.

Hi Anemone. Sorry that I can't provide the information you ask. For what it's worth my comment still holds. By the way, I am not on this forum for status or to receive brownie points as you point out. I was not raised in that way. But by all means keep a score sheet if that helps you make sense of life.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Hi Anemone. Sorry that I can't provide the information you ask. For what it's worth my comment still holds. By the way, I am not on this forum for status or to receive brownie points as you point out. I was not raised in that way. But by all means keep a score sheet if that helps you make sense of life.

I think you have just lost the last person willing to give your position the time of day with that last comment. Take it up with your God. She might be more patient than I am.

 

[Giopomerol]

Hi Giopomerol. I'm one of those who did the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons as opposed to religious reasons. The experience you have described is one that I personally would have absolutely no objection to reading in this forum. It is a wonderfully written desciption of what you experienced on the Camino, and to be perfectly honest, something I would expect people to write about. However, when we get into debate about religion, for me it starts to get away from the intent and purpose of why this forum exists. My two cents worth.

All the best,

Mal.

Hi Avromal, it's bed time for me. But before I tuck in, just want to thank you for your post. I found it encouraging and sincere.

 

[Annette london]

Now, THAT is also unfair. Whatever goodwill you may have earned with some of your earlier posts you are losing with this one...

. Things are getting just a little bit hot here with some of the responses.....

This one is just going on...and on....
In circles!

 

[Tio Huero]

I have a small bee in my bonnet about a particular rule in this forum and I thought the best way to get it out of the bonnet was to post it here! Whether one likes it or not, the roots and existence of the pilgrimage to Santiago is in fact a Religious one. The route and it's extraordinary history speaks for itself. Many pilgrims walk the sacred (yes it is sacred) route for religious reasons and if they are like me, appreciative of the history and marvels of this sacred route, prey tell why are we not allowed to talk about religion and share some of our religious experiences? I find it slightly hypocritical that this forum exists and feeds off the backbone of a religious Route yet does not allow us to talk about our religious experiences along the way! This forum is too heavily skewed in favour of those who do the Camino for adventure/spiritual reasons and denies those of us who do the Camino for religious reasons, (which is why the Camino existed in the first place ) a platform to share our thoughts! Why this hypocracy? It feels as though my kind of pilgrimage is not good enough or hip/cool enough to share? Just because a person my not be a believer why does that give them a right to censor those that are? This is why I think this rule is hypocritical and to a point, the rule is rather arrogant given the type of pilgrimage that it is!

I am neither religious, nor spiritual as far as I can tell. Having been raised Catholic and schooled for a time under the heavy hands of some overly enthusiastic nuns, the Church and I have gone our separate ways. I believe that religion is a personal issue and everyone has his/her right to those beliefs, as long as those beliefs don't include lopping off my head. If you want to talk religion with me I will, for a short while, listen politely but please don't try to convert me. We can still be friends. Buen camino.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I am viewing this thread as an affirmation of the reason for the rule! Countless posts describe religious experiences in accordance with the rule. This thread meanders into moral superiority and hostility. I am not sure that the debate was to be about the rule, clearly stated for a long, time, or a reason to assert personal religiosity. It is the latter that creates turmoil. The former is an attack on the rules, which is a violation of the rules...

 

[wcsjms]

and this is why religion is not discussed ..................

 

[lthrnck55]

Nothing wrong, unhealthy or offensive ( unless you allow it to be ) with a little debate and discourse on topics that can excite our sensitivities.

Buen Camino!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

. Things are getting just a little bit hot here with some of the responses.....

This one is just going on...and on....
In circles!

Not in circles. Downhill. Without religion being discussed. Just perception of censorship and unsubstanciated facts: who censored posts, what ever the poster about religious intend vs spiritual in office says...

Gave him more than one chance to clarify, and he chose to discredit himself...

 

[Anemone del Camino]

and this is why religion is not discussed ..................

Problem is ... religion was never discussed.

 

[AJ]

I am very appreciative of people's comments on this thread but please understand that my point is about RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES along the Camino. My point is not about RELIGOUS BELIEFS. I understand that there are rules (which I agree with ) for the latter but prey tell why for the former? This is my issue. The two are actually very different.

If you can describe your religious experience in words, it is unlikely to have been a religious experience.

Most people cannot distinguish between the religious and the emotional, or even sentimental.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Me says wow to the mods' planet wide coordination to keep quiet on this one. Even the super deleter was ... I will do like the super deleter...

 

[Deleted member 3000]

If you can describe your religious experience in words, it is unlikely to have been a religious experience. Most people cannot distinguish between the religious and the emotional, or even sentimental.

I have a cherished friend of over fifty years, a member of the Church Universal and Triumphant, who can describe in detail a discussion she had with Jesus that occurred in the way many of us have had discussions with friends over a cup of coffee at Starbucks (metaphorical; I hate Starbucks). She does not insist that I share her revelation. I do not challenge it. That is why we are friends. A religious experience may be described in words, but it is only real to the one who experiences it.

 

[Kiwi-family]

Can forum rules be questioned? That was the original question.
The answer is a resounding yes.
I asked the very same question some time ago and received some polite and informative replies. While I did not agree with all the logic (and for the record, have a lot of sympathy for the OP's first thoughts, but not his ensuing sarcasm and aggression), I have happily lived by the rules as I VALUE THIS COMMUNITY. At no point have I felt like I receive a raw deal. In fact, when I asked a question about protocol around non-Catholics receiving communion (an inherently "religious"/theological question) a robust conversation emerged and I learnt bucketloads. That one thread alone was evidence to me that the intent of this particular rule was about maintaining harmony and not about censorship. Countless other threads support that conclusion.
Actually my beliefs inform all my interactions and in that way every conversation is a spiritual act for me - but I am willing to refrain (apart from this instance, which you may find to be inconsistent) from discussing this explicitly out of respect for those who have established the parameters within which this particular community will exist.
@Giopomerol it is good that you have found this thread to be positive. Everyone has different sensitivities, and I can understand that for some this thread has felt attacking, unkind and personal.
Talking about "talking about religion" has elicited some of the kinds of comments that the mods wish to avoid - imagine what might happen if we got on to the real thing!
A wise man once said that "a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger" - this thread illustrates that truth very well.

 

[Deleted member 67338]

Wow! Hi Giopomerol,
You would so get on with my husband
I would say the reason we are not allowed to mention religion is because people ARGUE about religion and some peace has to be kept? Especially on a forum where no-one speak 'face-to-face' and words are easily miscontrued....(as we've experienced time and time again )
Religion, money and politics, those used to be the 3 subjects forbidden at the dinner table....
But I get your point and sadly, people who walk pilgrimages with a religious purpose are a minority I think... I could be wrong. See? Dicy subject!
Buen camino

well said mate

 

[nycwalking]

This thread proves the rule.
Buen camino to everyone!

 

[Kanga]

Lots of good posts here but I have just deleted one that was an unambiguous personal attack. Sooner or later that was bound to happen.

Apart from the "no discussion about religion" there is another rule, equally important and relevant to this thread. Rule 5. No trolling. A post that is designed to be inflammatory, that sows discord by starting arguments, or deliberately to upset people, is definitely trolling.

The moderators cannot be on duty all the time, which is the reason for the rules and why we have a points system to enforce them.

Time to close the thread.