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No. A question that deserves answers, whatever they might be.ooooops politics
Not politics.ooooops politics
As to Camino in Spain, I've not been to Spain since 2019 or so. If and when I go again, I am likely to travel from a more northern part of Europe directly to Santiago. I have been looking at options to go by train ... it will be a first for this distance and a long journey. Much longer than a flight, whether direct or via Madrid, and in all likelihood more expensive, too.I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
@Barbara, I have watched your forum contributions for some time. If I hadn't had that background, this would have seemed like virtue signalling. I know it isn't but, unfortunately, I fear there will be some who use the opportunity you have created here for exactly that.Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
It would be an interesting journey. It's a pity there are so few sleeper trains. Would you take time to visit elsewhere on the way?As to Camino in Spain, I've not been to Spain since 2019 or so. If and when I go again, I am likely to travel from a more northern part of Europe directly to Santiago. I have been looking at options to go by train ... it will be a first for this distance and a long journey. Much longer than a flight, whether direct or via Madrid, and in all likelihood more expensive, too.
It obviously doesn't because you're walking, not flying or driving as some others need to do.What has such business as a carbon footprint to do with my foot pilgrimage from home and back along these ancient Ways ?
Or, as @ivar says very well, are you thinking of this - yes or no? So in answer to that question, @ivar, yes - absolutely.Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Well, I did address the question to those who fly or drive. Because if you don't do either, or use other motorised transport then you are by definition already being carbon neutral. I don't consider my question political, rather a reflection on pilgrimage and how we travel on pilgrimage in this century. Not everyone can travel to Santiago and back without some other means of travel that their feet, after all.Honestly, it's political from the outset.
And there is no way that I would contribute to discussion, principally because not only are other forums more suitable for this sort of discussion, but also because it is hard to see how this might in any way be useful to the Pilgrims of the Way of Saint James for the preparation of their pilgrimages to the tomb of the Apostle.
What has such business as a carbon footprint to do with my foot pilgrimage from home and back along these ancient Ways ?
Each pilgrim of course has his own thoughts on these questions, and they are exactly the sort of matter that can be fruitful to discuss on these pilgrim ways, but I cannot see any benefit to the forum nor to pilgrims in discussing these politics in here.
And there is a Paris-Bayonne TGV.The new fast speed train from Santiago to Madrid us an option for those thinking if this…
It is intrinsically political, Ivar, in that behavioural modification in response to some party political allegations about individual activities versus collective consequences is political by nature.It is not politics unless we make it politics… it is almost a yes or no question. Is this something you are thinking of? Yes or no.
OTOH sleeper trains are absolutely brilliant !!It would be an interesting journey. It's a pity there are so few sleeper trains. Would you take time to visit elsewhere on the way?
So what is the "carbon footprint" of the glass of white wine that my table neighbour is taking right now in Viana ?Well, I did address the question to those who fly or drive. Because if you don't do either, or use other motorised transport then you are by definition already being carbon neutral. I don't consider my question political, rather a reflection on pilgrimage and how we travel on pilgrimage in this century. Not everyone can travel to Santiago and back without some other means of travel that their feet, after all.
Nothing wrong with such discussions between pilgrims on the Camino, but I find it to be very inappropriate in here.
Good point. Quite possible depending on how we live at home.It's quite possible that a walk on the Camino for a month or even a few weeks more than offsets any carbon footprint involved in getting to Spain by air.
Yup. Perfect. Enough said, thank you.No.
See how that works ?
That just illustrates the divisive political nature of it.I think this is the third time you claim this thread is inappropriate. Point taken. But maybe from now on you can just ignore this thread ? (so others who think it is an interesting issue can continue). Thanks.
Just because we disagree doesn't make something political. You can try to make it so, but the rest of us would like to continue to share about this.That just illustrates the divisive political nature of it.
It takes 3:57.And there is a Paris-Bayonne TGV.
Then why continue to disagree? Please, just enjoy Viana. The rest of us would love to be there too.I don't want that.
So what is the "carbon footprint" of the glass of white wine that my table neighbour is taking right now in Viana ?
See, this is what I mean. It's ideological. I really wish nobody had taken that rhetorical question seriously.Calculable though complex. The wine itself will depend on the cultivation, harvesting methods and processing. The carbon cost of the bottle it came in will almost certainly be higher than that of the wine itself but potentially reduced if the bottle is washed and refilled rather than recycled. The transport cost of getting that bottle to the consumer is potentially the highest of all the aggregates. If it’s locally produced and distributed then the carbon cost is minimized. If you’re drinking Australian wine in Tromso, start planting trees
This would be wonderful news!I think there are plans to reinstate the Paris to Hendaye night train via Bordeaux and Bayonne as a regular line
If you’re drinking Australian wine in Tromso, start planting trees
I have done a lot of driving in Europe in the last few years, more because once you have a car you can't just abandon it, than because I especially want to drive. I have driven from England (where I bought the car) to Ireland to collect all my worldly goods thence to Greece. Then I drove to Latvia where I was studying, then back to Greece and on the ferry to Crete, then in October from Crete to Spain via Athens for the visa!Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
You’ve given your answer, @JabbaPapa.Let's just take your question. And my answer.
No.
This thread is going nowhere good, Please shut it down.
It’s never really crossed my mind. I suppose in defence of my air travel I’d offer that my car’s off the road for a month.Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
No please don't.This thread is going nowhere good, Please shut it down.
In understandable English, not pages of math.Those of you paying for carbon offset, what are the practicalities of doing it, and how do you calculate the amount, please?
I beg to differ. The OP's perhaps is a bit of a clickbait question, but as hard-core walkers, the eco-footprint issue surely has crossed all our minds one time or another, latest when marching along a highway with the cars passing. Having taken the train from Barcelona to Pamplona last time certainly has not affected my enormous eco-footprint – since I flew from home to Barcelona first – but you know what? Riding that train made me somewhat feel good. (And for sure, I would never do the backward yo-yo-ing from Pamplona to SJPdP, ever). Once the planned new night TGV connection from Zurich to Barcelona is in service, I will use it.Honestly, it's political from the outset.
And there is no way that I would contribute to discussion, principally because not only are other forums more suitable for this sort of discussion, but also because it is hard to see how this might in any way be useful to the Pilgrims of the Way of Saint James for the preparation of their pilgrimages to the tomb of the Apostle.
What has such business as a carbon footprint to do with my foot pilgrimage from home and back along these ancient Ways ?
Each pilgrim of course has his own thoughts on these questions, and they are exactly the sort of matter that can be fruitful to discuss on these pilgrim ways, but I cannot see any benefit to the forum nor to pilgrims in discussing these politics in here.
That is an interesting response, so thank you.I beg to differ. The OP's perhaps is a bit of a clickbait question, but as hard-core walkers, the eco-footprint issue surely has crossed all our minds one time or another, latest when matching along a highway with the cars passing. Having taken the train from Barcelona to Pamplona last time certainly has not affected my enormous eco-footprint – since I flew from home to Barcelona first – but you known what? Riding that train made me somewhat feel good. (And for sure, I would never do the backward yo-yoing from Pamplona to SJPdP, ever). Once the planned new high-speed night train connection from Zurich to Barcelona is in service, I will use it.
Now, of course, most non-Spanish Peregrinos simply have no choice than to fly, but if we all keep up our awareness, we may start the first tiny baby step toward a better environment. You, @JabbaPapa, are setting an example with your home-door to door Caminos, so I don't understand why you regard the issue as being political. I certainly see a connection between Peregrinos and eccology.
Well, people in Europe could be taking the train, right?most non-Spanish Peregrinos simply have no choice than to fly,
QED. Great to know that the time-saving aspect of flying short distances is non-existant.flew to Barcelona at 07:30, sat at the train station for a long time, then took a train to Pamplona, arriving at 19:20. All in all, 12 hours travel time. In 2018, took a train from Frankfurt to Paris at 06:00, which is almost 4 hours. 2 hour wait and trained to Bayonne for another 4 hours. Train to SJPDP, came in an hour and that took another hour. About 12 hours total
Oy. This. It's not something we tend to consider in this context. But clearly we should.plastic
I don't understand either. But, whatever.Not sure what politics has to do with conserving our natural resources and being kind to the earth.
In my own life, "yes", I think I can make small differences. If I plan to walk another Camino and have the ability to walk, then my answer is "no". The Europeans will be the only "camino winners" here if flying is eventually banned for a majority. Buses, trains, and cruiseships all use "some" fossil fuels, too.It is not politics unless we make it politics… it is almost a yes or no question. Is this something you are thinking of? Yes or no.
This is a wonderful point, that has nothing to do with climate, but which supports the kind of slow travel that's more climate neutral.Train or boat travel is faster than walking or cycling but still seems like 'real' analogue travel, compared to teleportation-like hops between identikit airports! A better preparation and postscript for the Camino itself.
My wife travelled overland from the UK to visit family in Thailand and China. And then back home again. Twice. It did take a bit longer than flying (and was much more expensive!).Places that are far away should take time to get to.
This is my approach. I do think about the topic, and try to make changes in my daily life. I am not ready yet to give up long-distance travel, so I just have to feel guilty about that. I am suspicious of the carbon offset schemes, but haven't really looked into them.if we all keep up our awareness, we may start the first tiny baby step toward a better environment.
Calculate amount: Search for "CO2 flight calculator" with your favourite search engine, e. g.:I'm seeing a lot of sensible and relatively easy solutions to implement, so thank you. Those of you paying for carbon offset, what are the practicalities of doing it, and how do you calculate the amount, please?
I fly at least 50-60 times a year and am relatively relaxed about it, but I guess I internally trade it off with the fact that I don’t eat a lot of meat and don’t drive a car! No idea how that nets out but I am very proud of not driving! I wish I could give up meet as I know how bad that is but that’s tough!!Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
It can be fairly cheap! London to Beijing can take approx 9 days and cost £800.My wife travelled overland from the UK to visit family in Thailand and China. And then back home again. Twice. It did take a bit longer than flying (and was much more expensive!).
Does that include the cost of visas for Belarus, Russia and China each way? Or travel from Beijing to Kunming and then on through Laos into Thailand? And the accommodation costs for the days en route between trains or buses? And food for all the travel days? I think you may find the total cost of long-distance overland travel is much greater than the headline ticket cost!It can be fairly cheap! London to Beijing can take approx 9 days and cost £800.
Can’t exactly remember what I paid. Think it was circa £600 on direct train to Beijing! Didn’t go Thailand. Food was very cheap on train but yes forgot about visa not forgetting Mongolia) so I guess pushes it up to £1k ish!Does that include the cost of visas for Belarus, Russia and China each way? Or travel from Beijing to Kunming and then on through Laos into Thailand? And the accommodation costs for the days en route between trains or buses? And food for all the travel days? I think you may find the total cost of long-distance overland travel is much greater than the headline ticket cost!
One of the disadvantages of living so far away from Europe is the long flight there, incurring fossil fuel consumption and pollution. So I tend to make my trip longer as frequent flights are not desirable affordable or tolerable. (I cant afford first class). Air travel is really the only practical option from here.Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
It would be a +/- 1800 km train journey. Nothing fixed yet but I would probably break up the trip and stay overnight somewhere, most likely in Spain. I've flown Paris (Orly airport) to Biarritz and/or to Bordeaux in the past but I have also taken the train in the past for connections from Paris to the South West. I am unlikely to fly such short distances in future. Same goes for say Madrid<-->Santiago.It would be an interesting journey. It's a pity there are so few sleeper trains. Would you take time to visit elsewhere on the way?
I've done that. The visas cost as much as the fare. But it was fun.My wife travelled overland from the UK to visit family in Thailand and China. And then back home again. Twice. It did take a bit longer than flying (and was much more expensive!).
Yes agree! I love train travel. 10 days or soI've done that. The visas cost as much as the fare. But it was fun.
Brussels to Bayonne on TGV and Thalys trains, Bayonne to Hendaye/Irun on a local train, Hendaye/Irun to Santiago via San Sebastian/Tolosa/Vitoria/Burgos/Leon/Ponferrada/Monforte de Lemos/Ourense. I've done the latter bit in reverse and it's a fabulous journey.As to Camino in Spain, I've not been to Spain since 2019 or so. If and when I go again, I am likely to travel from a more northern part of Europe directly to Santiago. I have been looking at options to go by train ... it will be a first for this distance and a long journey. Much longer than a flight, whether direct or via Madrid, and in all likelihood more expensive, too.
And a discussion on that issue is a scientific one, not political.There is a difference between the fact that climate is variable and some hypotheticals about why this is so.
We are keeping an eye on it, but if you look at the posts that follow yours I think you will find they are civilised, to the point and constructive.This thread is going nowhere good, Please shut it down.
My “implication” is one in eight billion. I’m not impressed by those odds, so, no.Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
No, as where I live you have to travel to get anywhere, I know you are able to buy carbon offsets if you wish though I never had. Though this wasn’t the reason I own 25 acres of raw land if which I leave most of it alone and guess what, trees grow extremely well and quickly there so I guess you could call that my carbon offset. I would like to say you did bring up a valid point and for some that may be the reason they choose not to the Camino.Those of you who fly or drive to and from your starting point and back, how do you feel about your implication in global warming?
Do you do anything to balance this, or do you consider that there isn't a problem? Would you consider that the spiritual benefits outweigh all other considerations? Have you thought about other options?
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone, just wondering if this is a part of your decision tree. Before you ask, yes, I do fly but not where other options are available.
Hey, you've contributed some spice to a potentially dull threadI'm sorry, I was in a really foul mood last night, and I apologise.
Apology accepted. You are not a bad person, far from it. Having read your other posts I can understand why you might not have been in the greatest of spirits. But can I suggest that next time you are 'in a foul mood', you write down what you think, store it somewhere and then look at it next morning in the cold light of day and decide if you still want to send the proverbial letter to the Times? Keep strong and buen camino.I'm sorry, I was in a really foul mood last night, and I apologise.
Thank you. I'm glad you said that. I didn't mean to upset you.I'm sorry, I was in a really foul mood last night, and I apologise.
I did a carbon calculator and it said that the thing that had the highest impact in my lifestyle was "Education", however I have no idea how that was calculated, since they simply asked how much I spend on it.Has anyone done the calculations of the carbon footprint of their lives at home, and then the difference of a doing a Camino? What is the carbon footprint during the Camino vs the footprint at home?
For Australians like me the obvious factor is the air flight which would not apply to Europeans. For Europeans train travel is inferred from the above comments to be smaller, but how much? Through France the TGV are electrically powered largely by nuclear power stations - not marginally carbon producing but is that a good idea? Other countries vary - perhaps some renewables. It is messy.
I suspect few have any idea although some might. I lead a fairly virtuous "carbon life" (calculated by instinct) at home and if I do a Camino next year I will give no thought at all to its carbon footprint - None. Sailing boats stopped their services to Australia some time ago
I expect to have a good time and contribute to the Spanish economy in poorer regions that may benefit. But I have no idea if they will use the money I give them for food and lodging in a carbon-friendly way.
Does Spain care about the carbon footprint of all the tourism it actively promotes? Where does this question lead? Avoid all long distance tourism and just live locally?
Like many others, I have my ways of justifying how and what I consume in the way of resources in general and energy resources in particular and why I do it the way I do. However, I refrained from including any of these considerations in my earlier comments for the simple reason that the question asked is about “what do you do personally in relation to flights to Spain (and perhaps also within Spain), if anything, as related to CO2 output.Does Spain care about the carbon footprint of all the tourism it actively promotes? Where does this question lead? Avoid all long distance tourism and just live locally?
Has anyone done the calculations of the carbon footprint of their lives at home, and then the difference of a doing a Camino? What is the carbon footprint during the Camino vs the footprint at home?
For Australians like me the obvious factor is the air flight which would not apply to Europeans. For Europeans train travel is inferred from the above comments to be smaller, but how much? Through France the TGV are electrically powered largely by nuclear power stations - not marginally carbon producing but is that a good idea? Other countries vary - perhaps some renewables. It is messy.
I suspect few have any idea although some might. I lead a fairly virtuous "carbon life" (calculated by instinct) at home and if I do a Camino next year I will give no thought at all to its carbon footprint - None. Sailing boats stopped their services to Australia some time ago
I expect to have a good time and contribute to the Spanish economy in poorer regions that may benefit. But I have no idea if they will use the money I give them for food and lodging in a carbon-friendly way.
Does Spain care about the carbon footprint of all the tourism it actively promotes? Where does this question lead? Avoid all long distance tourism and just live locally?
We must be of similar age!A thoughtful thread and thinking out loud,
I was lucky...most "baby boomers" are.
I had a mother way before her time. She taught me a lot about the environment and the need to protect. Her musings and things she used to impart to me seemed laughable at the time and were simplistic to a young and simplistic boy.
I remember the "rag and bone" man who used to come round on his horse and cart collecting all the things he could recycle and make a living from.
I remember all the drinks bottles that had deposits that we, as little children, used to collect and get our three old pence for returning. Four bottles would get you a new one to slake your thirst and reward your endeavours.
I am a consumer..we all are.
I just think that how we go forward lessons can be learnt from the past and are easily forgotten.
I think that this thread is great....thank you.
Yes, we were encouraged to give old "stuff" to the rag and bone man as we got a goldfish!We must be of similar age!
Same basic assumptions in suburban Liverpool in the fifties. And I too remember horse and cart connecting "recyclables" before we had heard that word.
But also the City Council bin lorry was horse drawn. We used to go out with a carrot. We didn't know then it should have been an organic carrot....but maybe they all were then?
We have a new young teacher from Spain on a Fulbright Scholarship at my university. She says Spain has the most renewable energy projects in Europe and could have more, but the political environment is not always supportive.Has anyone done the calculations of the carbon footprint of their lives at home, and then the difference of a doing a Camino? What is the carbon footprint during the Camino vs the footprint at home?
For Australians like me the obvious factor is the air flight which would not apply to Europeans. For Europeans train travel is inferred from the above comments to be smaller, but how much? Through France the TGV are electrically powered largely by nuclear power stations - not marginally carbon producing but is that a good idea? Other countries vary - perhaps some renewables. It is messy.
I suspect few have any idea although some might. I lead a fairly virtuous "carbon life" (calculated by instinct) at home and if I do a Camino next year I will give no thought at all to its carbon footprint - None. Sailing boats stopped their services to Australia some time ago
I expect to have a good time and contribute to the Spanish economy in poorer regions that may benefit. But I have no idea if they will use the money I give them for food and lodging in a carbon-friendly way.
Does Spain care about the carbon footprint of all the tourism it actively promotes? Where does this question lead? Avoid all long distance tourism and just live locally?
Very true, and a real pity.Unfortunately we have very few trains in the US and the same with our bus system.
Yes of course! It’s really tough for North Americans… I guess a bit easier in the coastal cities, Chicago, etc but when I have visited states like Texas and Florida I wonder how folks manage!!I haven't read most of these longer posts because they will not apply to me. Unfortunately we have very few trains in the US and the same with our bus system. Both are extremely limited on where you can travel and how often they run, thus absolutely nowhere near the options available in Europe. If not living in a larger city a car is definitely necessary.
This does make any effort to make a Camino carbon neutral that much more difficult.Walking the CF this year I saw some really good grapes in the supermarket. Keen to get locally grown grapes and make my wife enviousI bought enough to last me a few days, on the second day I spotted that they were imported from Chile!
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