Mikel Olivares
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2012, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. Camino Francés.
2016, Camino Portugués from Oporto
2017, San Salvador.
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On the 19th April 2012 we were advised by the Pilgrim Office not to go the Napoleon route because of high winds, snow and fog. Later that day we met some pilgrims, one from Ireland, and they said they were going the Napoleon, how bad could it be? We took the advice from the Pilgrim Office, enforced by my wife who had come to see us off. When we reached Roncevalles we later met the same Irish guy, he was pale and exhausted and probably in a bit of shock, he told us he didn't think he would make it, conditions got so bad.Good luck with that one! There are some very obstinate pilgrims in this world, three I know of had to be rescued-one by helicopter and who paid the bill? Not the pilgrim! A wise decision long past due.
It will be a problem. There are several streets that lead to the route, which is a road that I am sure will remain open to traffic. Once on the Valcarlos Route, it is not easy but it is possible to get back to the Route Napolean, so turning all pilgrims to the open route may not work. It would not surprise me if clever minds are already plotting ways to avoid the ban.I hope they don´t place an impregnable little yellow banner across the road!
It will be a problem. There are several streets that lead to the route, which is a road that I am sure will remain open to traffic. Once on the Valcarlos Route, it is not easy but it is possible to get back to the Route Napolean, so turning all pilgrims to the open route may not work. It would not surprise me if clever minds are already plotting ways to avoid the ban.
If French authorities really care about closing it, they will need to devote the resources to doing it. Pilgrims that need to be rescued may be deemed in violation of the law rather than good judgement, and be deported. THAT would be a memorable end to an aborted pilgrimage.
Is/was Orisson open in the dead of winter?
Is/was Orisson open in the dead of winter?
I agree end of October to the end of March. But business slows down they couldn't possibly stay open, or I wonder even drive drive up that road. In heavy snow years & ice it may well need a snowmobile. I didn't see any sign of them on locals properties, but that is only half way in elevation. It would be very interesting to know if they keep an average snowpack on top. In April 2014 there were still 2 meter drifts on the north facing slopes.This is part of the problem. It is closed at end October. That means there is no place to stop between Huntto and Roncesvalles.
I agree end of October to the end of March. But business slows down they couldn't possibly stay open, or I wonder even drive drive up that road. In heavy snow years & ice it may well need a snowmobile. I didn't see any sign of them on locals properties, but that is only half way in elevation. It would be very interesting to know if they keep an average snowpack on top. In April 2014 there were still 2 meter drifts on the north facing slopes.
What would really help is if any locals do have snow machines & take pictures up there in winter. But pictures of the brutal conditions may help educate folks to the reality of what they may be considering. Then the issue is putting out the pictures, the Camino office in SJPDP with a high quality large picture of a blinding storm might just be the what is needed.
LOL you still have to explain what the sheep are doing there even they have better instincts.A high quality picture? How about a blank sheet of white paper and save a few bucks. Scatter a few pairs of black ink dots and tell 'em those are the sheep.
The problem is that if anyone DOES risk it it the rescue service who have to go out searching for the idiot .
Ondo Ibili !
Government cannot do that.inform folks that SAR is suspended and that you proceed at your own risk
Fascinating. Close the route Napoleon where very few pilgrims get into trouble and even fewer die but keep promoting the Pamplona Bull Run where many get injured or die. Interesting double standard.
Fascinating. Close the route Napoleon where very few pilgrims get into trouble and even fewer die but keep promoting the Pamplona Bull Run where many get injured or die. Interesting double standard.
I posted this in an earlier thread, nothing changes. "We used to classify casualties as "lucky" and "un-lucky". The un-lucky were those who, despite having the right equipment, skills and knowledge to venture safely in challenging environments had had the mis-fortune to experience an accident and needed help. The lucky were those who ill-equipped, ignorant of hazards or ignoring advice placed themselves in situations from which they had to be rescued. They were "lucky" because there were people willing to risk their own lives and comfort to mitigate their stupidity."
We know that there have been pilgrims past who have ventured the Napoleon against advice. Some have even boasted their achievements. Would they be so adventurous (or stupid) in the knowledge that no-one will come looking for them - other, perhaps, than a grieving relative or two?
@JohnnieWalker , fair point. Though no one has to put themselves in harms way in order to scrape the bull-runners off the cobbles.
There is an easy solution to the Route Napolean problem: use the Valcarlos Route in winter. Problem solved.Close the route Napoleon where very few pilgrims get into trouble and even fewer die but keep promoting the Pamplona Bull Run
I disagree. Who is "Lucky" and who is "Unlucky" is a subjective opinion. Let the pilgrim make their own choice. Don't forget, they have been making it for over a thousand years at much higher risk than there is today.
And no one HAS to put themselves in harms way to rescue a pilgrim between Nov 1 and March 31 or anytime for that matter.
I would suggest that many of the people who walk the camino have not a clue and thus has a higher percentage of the "lucky" than is the case on other famous treks where the incidence of the "un-lucky" is more prevalent.
The problem of letting the pilgrim make their own choice is that of whether the pilgrim has the competency to make that choice.
I particularly resent the requirement to use only one side of the highway. It is such an unimaginative imposition by government. It is just so unnecessary around Walden Pond.If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life.
I agree for a single adult but this do gooder as you feel the need to proclaim is still concerned for youngsters following parent. They have closed it. Yet we will continue to see deaths due to individuals making the wrong decision. But this is worth discussing.I disagree. Who is "Lucky" and who is "Unlucky" is a subjective opinion. Let the pilgrim make their own choice. Don't forget, they have been making it for over a thousand years at much higher risk than there is today.
And no one HAS to put themselves in harms way to rescue a pilgrim between Nov 1 and March 31 or anytime for that matter.
That may be true for non-European pilgrims, but SJPdP is easy to get to from the rest of Europe. Pamplona or Roncesvalles, not so easy!Today's pilgrims start in SJPdP because they have read that this is where they have to start
The basic problem is not to arrive at SJPdP but the use of Route Napoleon in winter. There are alternative routes by Valcarlos or by road. The main matter is that many people thinks " If I dont pass by Route Napoleon y dont make the genuine "camino", or I must do the hardest way to prove myself i am strong enough. I think that rescue services coordinated French and Navarra will not leave anybody lost in the mountains, but if you break the law you will be fined and I suppose that you will pay inmediattely in cash or they will not let you to continue. And the costs of a rescue operation is not cheap.That may be true for non-European pilgrims, but SJPdP is easy to get to from the rest of Europe. Pamplona or Roncesvalles, not so easy!
No, they only close the Route Napoleon, if you like to begin in SSdPP you must use the Valcarlos route. The road usualy is cleaned and open very soon after snowing.It is interesting that so many think they have to start in SJPDP in the winter no less. You will still have quite a buen Camino if you start in Roncevalles or Pamplona. I as well wanted to cross the Pyrenees as it seemed to be a challenge. But in the winter you best be clear on what you will encounter. Deep snow, high winds, cold temperatures, no visibility. No one to help you, no shelter.
I think closing is a great idea, if you want to take it on then it is purely on you if they find your carcass in the spring. It simply does not have to be the starting point.
Buen Camino
Exactly, like you may have seen already in other parts of the world: A sign or banner or similar that says in several languages: "This road is closed. It's dangerous. Don't go." It will stop people who may have entered otherwise but nobody expects it to be fool-proof.
Isn't that a pretty good reason?I must do the hardest way to prove myself i am strong enough.
No but I would think that the Spanish Provincial Govt could pass a regulation advising that if you use a "closed route" and need to be rescued you will be charged the FULL cost of the rescue - (say E10,000) and you will not be permitted to leave Spain until the fees are paid.Government cannot do that.
Fascinating. Close the route Napoleon where very few pilgrims get into trouble and even fewer die but keep promoting the Pamplona Bull Run where many get injured or die. Interesting double standard.
I have crossed the route twice (not in Winter) and have seen many break down in the warmer months, the basic problem as I see it is they want to close this way because each year more ill equipped pilgrims try it and the more rescues have to be carried out, putting the rescuers at risk. We should respect their rules also if you do continue when its closed your insurances is worthless and you could end up with a high bill. Or do the ones that dont care also expect the others to pay as well. One death saved it worth all the annoyed pilgrims.The basic problem is not to arrive at SJPdP but the use of Route Napoleon in winter. There are alternative routes by Valcarlos or by road. The main matter is that many people thinks " If I dont pass by Route Napoleon y dont make the genuine "camino", or I must do the hardest way to prove myself i am strong enough. I think that rescue services coordinated French and Navarra will not leave anybody lost in the mountains, but if you break the law you will be fined and I suppose that you will pay inmediately in cash or they will not let you to continue. And the costs of a rescue operation is not cheap.
So true, there will be plenty of fools to ignore good advice. Wish you well, Peter.That is the essence of the problem. Good advice is never FOOL-proof.
Or give the bulls a vote on Pamplona.They should run bulls on the Napoleon route. That would solve both problems at once.
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