For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.cyclists are reminded that pedestrians have priority on all Camino tracks.
Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads. The bikes tear up the dirt trails and ARE a danger to pedestrians, imo. I suppose the evidence is in the pilgrims who are injured each year by bicyclists.Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.
Thank you
that is a really well written and excellent post. I agree with everything you say. It would be good if your post could be read by all cyclists wanting to ride a caminoAs a cyclist and one who has ridden a Cami o, the VDLP, I have posted almost identical sentiments as this above. One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic. I ride the CF in September and expect very different conditions that will require added vigilance on my part. I remain convinced that there is room for everyone, walkers and cyclists, on the Camino. In fact, the Church sanctions pilgrimage to Santiago by bike. However, written or not, there are rules that need to be followed for everyone’s safety.
1. Walkers always have the priority on the trail. They are being approached from the rear and even with a warning, may not hear it. Caution needs to be exercised.
2. Cyclists must signal their approach. A bell should be required and used, but one may have to verbally announce themselves as well.
3. Speed must be appropriate for the trail conditions. It’s not simply a matter of the terrain, but more importantly refers to the number of people on the trail with you. Slow down when passing walkers. Seems pretty elementary, but good judgement isn’t always practiced.
4. Inexperienced riders put everyone at risk. Biking a Camino isn’t easier than walking. Plus, before taking on the challenge, be sure to have the requisite skills to manage both your bike and to safeguard those around you.
5. Finally, the Camino isn’t a race course. One can cycle reflectively just as walkers do. However, if it’s adventure riding you’re looking for, the Camino should come off your list.
Unfortunately, those needing to
hear comments like these and those of the OP, aren’t tuned in here in the first place. There are responsible cyclists in the Camino and hopefully that’s who most of you will encounter. Buen Camino.
I looked but couldn’t find anything. I’m hoping it’s more a recommendation for something to be done about this serious issueThis is a common complaint and I imagine you can find threads on it if you do a search.
I thought some might be, maybe the local councils could take it up. Provide alternative trails for thatI agree with your suggestions for cyclist behaviour. Are you aware that many (most?) of those speeding cyclists are local people out on their local trails?
I posed my question for the OP, and despite them responding to the thread it has not been answered.Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads. The bikes tear up the dirt trails and ARE a danger to pedestrians, imo. I suppose the evidence is in the pilgrims who are injured each year by bicyclists.
I have never ridden a mountain bike but I have ridden an enduro motorcycle out on bush tracks and while sometimes the speeds differ the basic techniques remain similar.please slow down and don't hope that the tired pilgrim with a 15kg+ backpack and a hurt foot will jump into the right direction quickly enough
BTW, do you really walk with a 15kg pack! My body complains when I try carrying anything over about 8kg. I have just had to jettison some unnecessary stuff to get my (dry) pack weight down to 5-5.5kg.
Don’t parts of the CF already direct bike riders onto different routes on certain paths? Might be time to grab a jumper…I find the idea that because I have a bicycle, it's acceptable to be told that it would be appreciated if I take to the roads chilling.
I think a person’s word should be good enough! During our 2014 Camino we encountered the same, my wife was nearly knocked down by a group of cyclists who obviously owned the dangerous downhill road (mountain bikes). Maybe on my next Camino I video tape the scene so that the public can see! There’s a thing called Respect! They should use it sometime, and adhere to bike laws, like informing the pedestrians they are arriving and passing on the left! It’s the Right Thing to do!Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.
Thank you
As a cyclist and one who has ridden a Cami o, the VDLP, I have posted almost identical sentiments as this above. One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic. I ride the CF in September and expect very different conditions that will require added vigilance on my part. I remain convinced that there is room for everyone, walkers and cyclists, on the Camino. In fact, the Church sanctions pilgrimage to Santiago by bike. However, written or not, there are rules that need to be followed for everyone’s safety.
1. Walkers always have the priority on the trail. They are being approached from the rear and even with a warning, may not hear it. Caution needs to be exercised.
2. Cyclists must signal their approach. A bell should be required and used, but one may have to verbally announce themselves as well.
3. Speed must be appropriate for the trail conditions. It’s not simply a matter of the terrain, but more importantly refers to the number of people on the trail with you. Slow down when passing walkers. Seems pretty elementary, but good judgement isn’t always practiced.
4. Inexperienced riders put everyone at risk. Biking a Camino isn’t easier than walking. Plus, before taking on the challenge, be sure to have the requisite skills to manage both your bike and to safeguard those around you.
5. Finally, the Camino isn’t a race course. One can cycle reflectively just as walkers do. However, if it’s adventure riding you’re looking for, the Camino should come off your list.
Unfortunately, those needing to
hear comments like these and those of the OP, aren’t tuned in here in the first place. There are responsible cyclists in the Camino and hopefully that’s who most of you will encounter. Buen Camino.
Via de la Plata.Sorry whats VDLP?
walkers leave space for riders to get past and when that isn’t possible and you hear a bell step off the path of a couple of seconds.
Digitalgerry, there is a very good website that covers most of that detail. You’re probably across itI'm planning for 2024 and looking at the EuroVelo 3 route. I suspect parts of it weave long the main CF route, but would be good to know how much does.
I am planning to cycle with a friend (I imagine freinds cycling can add to the problem, but the bell is essential) We plan to cycle from Burgos to SDC.
Yes and have dowloaded the profile, and see it follows alot of the route, but mainly roads.Digitalgerry, there is a very good website that covers most of that detail. You’re probably across it
Champion responseI was run over by a bike last year, no chance to avoid it. It was a young local who apparently didn't expect a pilgrim in the path in the evening.
I was lucky and wasn't injured, but the young man on the bike was. I was very angry but felt sorry for him also.
Despite being run over I still have no problem whatsoever with cyclists using the Camino too.
All I ask for is: please slow down and don't hope that the tired pilgrim with a 15kg+ backpack and a hurt foot will jump into the right direction quickly enough because you shouted something from behind, just so you can drive by at full speed. I don't have eyes in the back and I am tired and slow, I can't jump into the bushes as fast as you want me to.
Please slow down, so that you can stop if needed. That's what I do when I'm on a bike and pass by people walking. Just today I did that and the jogger was so confused that I stopped to let him pass. He expected me to speed by while he needed to jump off the path. That was a bit sad.
Of course those who would need to read all this won't.
But one can wish for things, though, so that's my wish.
Please be careful and respect others. It doesn't matter if they travel on foot, by bike, on horseback or even by bus.
Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.
Thank you
Do you think that the woman lied to the OP? Just wondering.I met an older pilgrim yesterday who had been knocked down and ended up in a ditch. The cyclist then proceeded to abuse her for being in his way.
I walked the VDLP and saw very few cyclists. I do not ever remember having an issue on that camino.One reason I chose the VDLP was because of the light foot traffic.
WIthout a doubt I think E bikes are extremely dangerous. The E bike does need to be banned. They are heavy and they can go really fast. I think an E bike accident on the camino resulting in a death of a pilgrim is inevitable.E bikes have made things worse as there are a number of new cyclists who do not have the necessary skills to undertake the terrain or the experience of interacting with walkers.
The camino that starts in Sevilla. The Via de la Plata. You can take it to Astorga and then on to Santiago, or you can continue on to the Sanabria which gives the pilgrim a continued quiet and solitary walk to Santiago. It is over 1,000 kilometers. Of the different caminos I have walked the VDLP is more of a mental test than a physical one. I hope to walk it again one day.Sorry whats VDLP?
Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I quoted something you wrote and if you see that first you know my opinion. You are laying as much guilt and shame on pilgrims as you believe the pilgrims who are anti cyclists are laying on you. The statement you made that Pilgrims cause more damage to the camino paths than cyclists is a silly one. Of course they do. Looking at the Pilgrim Office stats 93.44% of people who get a Compostela are pilgrims. There are countless thousands of local cyclists who ride that also add to the wear and tear. One reason I love walking in bad weather especially on the weekends is I know there will be less bicycles on the road.I posed my question for the OP, and despite them responding to the thread it has not been answered.
(For the record, there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).
Given that the CF is some 800+km long, with numerous variants, encompassing everything from single person wide rocky trails to urban areas and stretches along main roads, I am bemused by the notion of a single "bicyclists should take to the roads" assertion. My first question would be "what constitutes a road?"
That is not a smartass question.
If it is legal to cycle on the Camino the question then, is less about bikes and more about the people on those bikes.
That brings us to the nub of the issue, in my opinion - the behaviour of people.
As someone who rides a bike I find it offensive that someone thinks it is perfectly alright to suggest to me where I can ride that bike, not based on my behaviour, but on the behaviour of others.
Here's another smartass question. Do we have any stats on injuries caused by cyclists to Pilgrims on the Camino?
I am not trying to play it down in any way but I believe that regulation (enforced and self) is most effective when based on reality and not perception.
Speaking of perception, fear is a perception. This forum is full of people posting directly or indirectly about their fears and making decisions based on them. Just because someone is afraid of bikes is no more a reason to advocate for their removal than it would be to advocate for the removal of dogs as just one example.
The harm that bikes can do to some trails is a hot topic in some countries at the moment but I'm not aware of any controversy in Spain.
In all honesty, given the ever increasing numbers of Pilgrims it's far likely that pedestrian traffic is doing the most harm.
I'd be wary of introducing environmental issues as an argument for discriminating against bikes what with lots of international air travel and baggage hauling as common topics on these fora.
I'm waiting, with interest, to see the development of a "Green" Camino movement.
My personal theory, is that there is too much "them and us" in any debate that involves cyclists. Interestingly, that debate seems to be very much centred on the English speaking world, and ironically, is not something that is prominent in Spain amongst the Spanish.
Drivers hate cyclists. Pedestrians hate cyclists. I ride a bike. I drive. I walk. I must really hate myself!
Seriously, though, such discrimination is a serious problem, especially when people bring their own perceptions and understandings to Spain (and Portugal) from foreign places.
Even the title of this thread is simply "Cyclists". How many people opened this thread expecting it to be a happy, joyful thread about the wonderful people to be met who ride bikes?
I find the idea that because I have a bicycle, it's acceptable to be told that it would be appreciated if I take to the roads chilling. It is the first step on a journey that brings us to unpleasant places.
Who is next to be discouraged from following a Camino? Those on group tours? Those who use baggage services? Non Christians?
In a general sense, there is no shortage of evidence, of anti cycling behaviour on the roads of certain countries, flames fanned, I believe, by notions such as this.
I have no problem at all (and have posted here before on the very topic) of introducing guidelines for both people on bikes and people on foot as well as devising rules and laws. Where, I do have a problem, however, is people deciding what I can and can't do (and where I can do it) based on their personal preferences.
Anyways, at the very end of this discussion it has to be faced that anyone advocating for what can and can't be done on a Camino is most likely a foreigner dictating to locals what they can and can't do.
I can't think of too many places in the world where that approach will go down well.
As with most things to do with planning a Camino I suggest strongly that we leave a lot of mental baggage at home and make the best of what is in front of us. How many of us planning a weekend away would scour for information on the best hotel to stay in are happy and grateful to wander up to a small village and take a bunk in a shared dorm?
Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.
Thank you
This sounds like advocating to me.Anyways, at the very end of this discussion it has to be faced that anyone advocating for what can and can't be done on a Camino is most likely a foreigner dictating to locals what they can and can't do.
Wow, I am in awe of youI had just walked ~40kms that day
There was no intention to doubt someone's word.I think a person’s word should be good enough!
I believe that to be incorrect, open to misinterpretation and potentially dangerous when people take the "law" into their own hands.A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino
With respect, in any debate I find it unhelpful to assume what is going on in someone else's head. It rarely leads to understanding.a group of cyclists who obviously owned the dangerous downhill road
With respect, ss someone with a fair few kms under my belt on a bike this is something that really bugs me, especially on a route like a Camino with people speaking numerous languages and understanding fewer.we learned to share the road and protect pedestrians announcing yourself with an “on your left…, bikes.
I dislike that language, intensely.Do you think that the woman lied to the OP? Just wondering.
Could you define what you mean by road?My personal opinion is that cyclists should be only allowed to take the road and not ride on the camino paths.
I'd like to point out that taxes are paid to the Spanish Government (when they're paidHow can you tell the Spanish citizens whose tax dollars pay for the camino
I would imagine for much the same reasons as most here want to walk those same paths. Being amongst like minded people and an excellent infrastructure.But for cyclists coming from other parts of the world, why ride on the camino. especially the CF, when there are many other places to ride that are far less traveled and most likely prettier.
Thank you for this contribution which makes my point better than I could.The E bike does need to be banned. They are heavy and they can go really fast. I think an E bike accident on the camino resulting in a death of a pilgrim is inevitable.
When I go to New York and DC to visit my kids, especially in New York there are E bikes wizzing by from all directions, between the Uber Eats and their competition to the people just riding their E Bikes it makes for a stressful time crossing a street.
Everyone has a right to their own opinion and I quoted something you wrote and if you see that first you know my opinion. You are laying as much guilt and shame on pilgrims as you believe the pilgrims who are anti cyclists are laying on you. The statement you made that Pilgrims cause more damage to the camino paths than cyclists is a silly one. Of course they do. Looking at the Pilgrim Office stats 93.44% of people who get a Compostela are pilgrims. There are countless thousands of local cyclists who ride that also add to the wear and tear. One reason I love walking in bad weather especially on the weekends is I know there will be less bicycles on the road.
You said people put their fears from "western" countries onto cyclists, well your statement that there doesn't appear to be a problem with cyclists among Spaniards, and to quote you:
This sounds like advocating to me.
The bottom line is there are jerks and idiots who drive cars, who walk down a path and who ride a bike. On the camino the strongest likelihood of injury will not come from one pilgrim running into another. Whoops I just made an assumption!!!!!!
I would write more but it is time to make breakfast for my wife.
Smart lady!a woman on the path suggested I yell "ding ding" when I approached walkers.
I’ve been walking the Camino Francés since May 5th, and of all the 100’s of bikers that have flown by, only a handful have given any warning. It is very difficult to hear them coming from behind, and I was almost knocked over myself, it was a frightening experience. I always thank those who have given a warning.Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.
Thank you
That's very true, sometimes especially so on a loaded bike.In certain situations it is much safer to go faster than it is to go slower.
You may find some inspiration and information on CGOABI'm planning for 2024 and looking at the EuroVelo 3 route. I suspect parts of it weave long the main CF route, but would be good to know how much does.
With respect, that is not evidence that Pedestrians have priority over cyclists.I’ve been walking the Camino Francés since May 5th, and of all the 100’s of bikers that have flown by, only a handful have given any warning. It is very difficult to hear them coming from behind, and I was almost knocked over myself, it was a frightening experience. I always thank those who have given a warning.
I didn’t realize what a sensitive issue this is. My concern is for safety of both walkers and cyclists. Evidence, I’ve read the following on a cycle tour site: Cycling Centuries:Would you be so good as to provide some evidence for this please.
Thank you
It is quite sensitive when people assert something as fact.I didn’t realize what a sensitive issue this is.
So no, then.. Evidence, I’ve read the following on a cycle tour site: Cycling Centuries:
The Camino is over 800 km long. In the photo I included in a previous post there is no issue with priority.A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino
The Camino is over 800 km long. In the photo I included in a previous post there is no issue with priority.
As a cyclist I am on the right. Convention is that pedestrians should be on the left. I can pass.
In the event that the pedestrian is on the right I can execute an overtaking manoeuvre. Again no issue.
As a cyclist I am on the right. Convention is that pedestrians should be on the left. I can pass.
In the event that the pedestrian is on the right I can execute an overtaking manoeuvre. Again no issue.
Isn't that the $1000,000 question.Whoops- mis-step on the quote. To be clear, when coming up behind a pedestrian, do you pass them on the pedestrian's right side? Or left side?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that?I really have no problem with bikes on the trail. But I think it is the wrong approach to think it's the walking person's responsibility to jump out of the way quickly enough.
WOW!!! From now on I do think I will send you pm's for all my questions because you really do have all the answers. As for who should have the right of way it should be pilgrims, first, last and always. I do not know if you have walked a camino or not and your reasons for walking. But if you have you should most definitely know that there are pilgrims who walk meditatively, or are experiencing profound moments that may overtake them while they walk and are not self aware but are lost in thoughts or possibly even better free of thought. For many of us the camino is not a bike ride or something to cross of a to do list. It is something that grabs our body and spirit and takes it places for peace or release or knowledge. It is not something we want to do but something we have to do. I do not remember the camino origins or history speaking of who should have priority, pilgrim or cyclist. Maybe to solve all your issues with all of us you may want to think about a more traditional bicycle route. There are so many that will afford better views than a camino. But you tell me as you do seem to have every correct answer.There was no intention to doubt someone's word.
I have asked (and am still waiting) for evidence that backs up
I believe that to be incorrect, open to misinterpretation and potentially dangerous when people take the "law" into their own hands.
With respect, in any debate I find it unhelpful to assume what is going on in someone else's head. It rarely leads to understanding.
With respect, ss someone with a fair few kms under my belt on a bike this is something that really bugs me, especially on a route like a Camino with people speaking numerous languages and understanding fewer.
"on the left" is cycling jargon. Expecting a non cyclist to understand it is veering towards arrogance. Expecting a Korean (insert non English speaking country of choice here) to understand it is optimistic.
It's not just the understanding, there's also the processing of it and the fact that it is a voice coming from behind. Is it an instruction to go left? It can be disorienting and "panic jumps" can be the result.
I ride a bike and it annoys the hell out of me, especially as my instinctive reaction is to go the wrong way.
I dislike that language, intensely.
As above, I asked for evidence that pedestrians have priority over cyclists on a Camino. It's a pretty bold statement, and wrong, I believe.
A collision involving a cyclist and pedestrian does nothing to prove or refute the question.
Could you define what you mean by road?
This is "The Camino" just outside Hontanas. Is this a road or do you think bicycles should be banned?
If bikes should be banned should farm machinery and local drivers also be banned?
View attachment 148674
I'd like to point out that taxes are paid to the Spanish Government (when they're paid) in Euros.
I would imagine for much the same reasons as most here want to walk those same paths. Being amongst like minded people and an excellent infrastructure.
Thank you for this contribution which makes my point better than I could.
Comparing US e-bikes (subject to different rules and regulations than EU ones) and their use in cities such as NY City and Washington to their use in Northern Spain is the perfect example of of someone carrying some mental baggage from their home country.
E-bikes are responsible for a boom amongst older and infirm cyclists and to ban them would be a huge retrograde step for mobility and sociability.
In some countries, they are being actively promoted as a means to a greener method of transport.
I'd encourage you to think a little deeper on the matter.
A quick solution to overcrowding on the CF would be to ban the use of baggage transport. In many cases it would affect the same group of people affected by a ban on E-bikes. I have a feeling that that would not be a proposal welcomed here.
At the end of the day all this comes down to people's behaviour and the perception of that.
It would be good to be able to have a respectful discussion.
I'm sorry, I don't comprehend this. I can't help but think that things are being read into my posts that are not there.
Smart lady!
In different places different things work.
The use of a bell is perfectly normal and acceptable in some countries, but taken as a sign of aggression in others. On a route like a Camino with an international crowd, it's all the more tricky.
On a side note, my first time cycling in Italy was becoming very stressed out by aggressive drivers beeping me before they overtook me. Living in the Netherlands at the time, the only time I had a car horn directed at me was if I was doing something I shouldn't be doing. Cue frustration in Italy.
Thinking on it over the first couple of days, the "aggression" I was interpreting wasn't backed up by, for example, close passes, verbal abuse, window wiper squirts and all the other things drivers can do to people on bikes. In fact many times the aggressors waved at me as they went past!
As it turns out, once I switched my head around to realise that what they were doing was giving me a friendly toot to warn me of their advance my cycling became a whole lot more enjoyable.
Please don't.WOW!!! From now on I do think I will send you pm's for all my questions because you really do have all the answers.
A Pilgrim on a bicycle is not a Pilgrim?As for who should have the right of way it should be pilgrims, first, last and always
Is that something denied to those of us who cycle?For many of us the camino is not a bike ride or something to cross of a to do list, it is something that grabs our body and spirit and takes it places for peace or release or knowledge.
I have no issues with "all of you".Maybe to solve all your issues with all of us
I don't have all the answers but I raise points, I ask questions, I express my opinion and I think I manage to do it respectfully.But you tell me as you do seem to have every correct answer.
There aren't many cyclists going to aim their bike at a target in the expectation that the target will move.
Can I ask why you would take such an approach after such an incident?Yes, 99% of the time I manage to step out of the way quickly enough, the bike passes without problem and we both say "Buen Camino" "bonjour" or something similar and smile, and everyone is happy.
No argument from me.But that one time you get hit full speed from behind is one time too often.
Yes, they are and in those cases the priority changes.The Camino paths are sometimes very narrow,
I hope I am not downplaying the danger?those very real problems should not be downplayed just because one prefers one method of transportation or another.
I actually disagree. At least in the compulsory sense. If a walker is legally in their position then the usual laws would apply.Walkers should be aware of their surroundings and move off the trail for cyclists to pass
I agree.since cyclists move much faster than walkers, in my opinion they have more responsibility to make sure a collision doesn't happen.
it is extremely frustrating to be constantly slowing to walking pace, particularly on the hills. But that doesn’t seem to worry, the groups of bikers who flash through. Often, you are totally unaware that there is a group of five or six of them one after the other. I fully understand the concerns expressed here by walkers. I have found it alarming too.
I will answer all your positions easilyPlease don't.
I don't.
A Pilgrim on a bicycle is not a Pilgrim?
Is that something denied to those of us who cycle?
I have no issues with "all of you".
I entered this thread to refute the suggestion that everywhere and at every time on an 800km route two legs have priority over two wheels.
I don't have all the answers but I raise points, I ask questions, I express my opinion and I think I manage to do it respectfully.
My Compostela says otherwise.No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim
Hello Pot, meet Kettle.does not hide the fact that you believe any other view other than yours is incorrect,
That is actually an interesting question. I think if there was an officially designated “cycling” Camino Frances, I would be happy to take it and be part of the community it encouraged. But then, I’m an old guy, and I must say that I find the tracks very difficult in many places.But can I ask you how would you feel about being obliged to stick to the roads?
The point I was making is that this is biking etiquette in the US. I by no means suggested cyclists use this in non- English speaking situations. The point is bikes need to announce themselves especially on a shared trail."on the left" is cycling jargon. Expecting a non cyclist to understand it is veering towards arrogance. Expecting a Korean (insert non English speaking country of choice here) to understand it is optimistic.
Huh? The Camino is almost the only place I ride a bike - except maybe to go to the supermarket.No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim. They are a bike rider that rides on a camino.
The thing is though, it may be biking etiquette in the US and well known amongst the cycling community but has anyone ever bothered to check if the non cycling community understand?The point I was making is that this is biking etiquette in the US. I by no means suggested cyclists use this in non- English speaking situations. The point is bikes need to announce themselves especially on a shared trail.
The arrogance is on the part of those on 2 wheels who mow over pedestrians.
Perhaps there should be suggestions provided to cyclists.
That is actually an interesting question. I think if there was an officially designated “cycling” Camino Frances, I would be happy to take it and be part of the community it encouraged. But then, I’m an old guy, and I must say that I find the tracks very difficult in many places.
I am not sure what words in that sentence is hard to understand.Huh? The Camino is almost the only place I ride a bike - except maybe to go to the supermarket.
Please re-read my post and don't put words in my mouth.I posed my question for the OP, and despite them responding to the thread it has not been answered.
(For the record, there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).
Given that the CF is some 800+km long, with numerous variants, encompassing everything from single person wide rocky trails to urban areas and stretches along main roads, I am bemused by the notion of a single "bicyclists should take to the roads" assertion. My first question would be "what constitutes a road?"
matbe we should all have potting soil shovels instead of scallop shells hanging on our mochillas. In defence of litter it's a great way to assure yourself that you are on the right path, if the litter runs out you are oboviously on the wrong path. Sierra Club motto take only pictures leave only footprints.Please re-read my post and don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say cyclists SHOULD take the road.
I said, "Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads."
Also, if I had my wish, it would be that pilgrims must sit and hear some rules of how to be good pilgrims before they were given a Compostela. Rules of etiquette. I have a list. But I'm passionate about two. One would be to NOT leave their danged toilet paper and sanitary items and other trash on the trail - and the other would be that bicycles MUST have a bell and MUST give walking pilgrims ample warning before barreling down the trail and scaring the crap out of or injuring walkers.
As for who should have the right of way it should be pilgrims, first, last and always. I do not know if you have walked a camino or not and your reasons for walking
I agree with you on many things, but mode of transportation is not what makes one a pilgrim - intention is what matters.No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim. They are a bike rider that rides on a camino.
There are places where an alternative cycle route has been identified for cycling pilgrims on all the routes that I have taken. These seem to be places where local knowledge might indicate cycling is more risky than taking an alternative road route. I never saw these as a direction to cyclists nor as any form of prohibition.Don’t parts of the CF already direct bike riders onto different routes on certain paths? Might be time to grab a jumper…
I wonder how much bike laws, ie black ink legal requirements, vary from country to country. Even conventions vary from country to country. Where I come from, it is customary for pedestrians to walk on the left of shared paths, and for cyclists to pass on the right. I see the opposite when I walk in Europe. Some people seem to adapt quickly to this difference, but I know others that take much longer, or don't seem to get it at all.They should use it sometime, and adhere to bike laws, like informing the pedestrians they are arriving and passing on the left! It’s the Right Thing to do!
Not certain Doug, but doesn’t the route up to O’Cebreiro split the path into hikers and cyclists?. i think there was also other parts where the cyclists are redirected ( going into Molinaseca and the descent from Alto del Pedron)There are places where an alternative cycle route has been identified for cycling pilgrims on all the routes that I have taken. These seem to be places where local knowledge might indicate cycling is more risky than taking an alternative road route. I never saw these as a direction to cyclists nor as any form of prohibition.
I wonder how much bike laws, ie black ink legal requirements, vary from country to country. Even conventions vary from country to country. Where I come from, it is customary for pedestrians to walk on the left of shared paths, and for cyclists to pass on the right. I see the opposite when I walk in Europe. Some people seem to adapt quickly to this difference, but I know others that take much longer, or don't seem to get it at all.
Having just completed a short pilgrimage from Ourense, I would observe that the very few cyclists that passed me gave adequate warning for me to move to the right side of the path, either by voice or bell. More, they didn't rush past in what might have been seen as a dangerous manner.
My other observation is that groups of two or more pilgrims often behaved in ways that would have made it difficult for any cyclist to pass safely. I am not expecting that walkers should do so in single file, but when a group occupies the whole width of a road, one wonders how much attention they are paying, and whether they have sufficient awareness of what is happening around them to allow others to pass them unhindered.
I believe I am right in saying that it is also prohibited in the UK to ride a bicycle along the pavement (aka sidewalk) or footpath.there are motorways, some Plazas, Private Property and precious few other places where it is illegal for me to take my bike).
Perhaps you can point us to the section in Spanish traffic law that says so? I am or have been a pedestrian and sometimes a cyclist in various European countries but have to admit that I am not intimately familiar with every country’s rules and just assume that what I think applies as a rule is an actual rule - and then mostly in urban environments and not in rural environments.A number of cyclists do not get that walkers are to given priority on the Camino
I am pretty sure you are right, and cyclists are advised to take the road from Villafranca del Bierzo. I think there is similar advice from Cruz de Ferro. I recall the Brierley's CF guide mentioning others. I always thought these were recommendations, made to help cycling pilgrims who wouldn't have had the local knowledge about what stretches of the camino path presented very difficult conditions for cyclists.Not certain Doug, but doesn’t the route up to O’Cebreiro split the path into hikers and cyclists?. i think there was also other parts where the cyclists are redirected ( going into Molinaseca and the descent from Alto del Pedron)
Appreciate that no one police’s these splits that I’m aware of, may be more recommendations?
Buen Camino
And you are entitled to your beliefs and to expressing them freely. You will know of course that there is no overall authority, whether secular or ecclesiastical, that regulates who is and who is not entitled to the label of Camino pilgrim or entitled to use the public footpaths and roads that have been selected to be put together under a “Camino” label.No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim
Agree think that it’s probably a safety guide.I am pretty sure you are right, and cyclists are advised to take the road from Villafranca del Bierzo. I think there is similar advice from Cruz de Ferro. I recall the Brierley's CF guide mentioning others. I always thought these were recommendations, made to help cycling pilgrims who wouldn't have had the local knowledge about what stretches of the camino path presented very difficult conditions for cyclists.
Believe what you wish, but you may be in a very small minority there, A pilgrimage is usually defined as something on the lines of 'a visit to a place of spiritual, religious, cultural or personal significance, usually involving a journey'. No suggestion it has to be on foot. Until very recently, the Roman Catholic church encouraged visitors, sorry, pilgrims to come to Santiago by any means possible. In Japan, the 88 temples on Shikoku island are visited by dozens of 'henro' or pilgrims every day arriving by car, and the suggestion that one should complete the hadj by walking to Mecca is clearly absurd. Please do not dismiss or question the motives or sincerity of others.No I do not believe a person on a bike is a pilgrim.
Please re-read my post and don't put words in my mouth.
I did not say cyclists SHOULD take the road.
I said, "Bicyclists are appreciated if they take the roads."
Also, if I had my wish, it would be that pilgrims must sit and hear some rules of how to be good pilgrims before they were given a Compostela. Rules of etiquette. I have a list. But I'm passionate about two. One would be to NOT leave their danged toilet paper and sanitary items and other trash on the trail - and the other would be that bicycles MUST have a bell and MUST give walking pilgrims ample warning before barreling down the trail and scaring the crap out of or injuring walkers.
Is this not a part of the problem? People taking notions from their home country and applying them to Spain?I believe I am right in saying that it is also prohibited in the UK to ride a bicycle along the pavement (aka sidewalk) or footpath.
With respect, I consider the title of the thread and opening post an ad hominen argument.And can I just remind everyone to keep it polite and avoid ad hominem arguments.
"protocol to follow for cyclists in pedestrian areas
Is the entire 800km approx Camino Francés, as marked by the yellow arrows, a pedestrian area?In pedestrian areas, you must yield to them.
That was the purpose of my attachment."
- You have priority over cars and motorcycles if you ride along a bicycle lane, a cycle path or a marked hard shoulder. In pedestrian areas, you must yield to them.
Can you answer the question if the entire CF is a pedestrian zone?There is a Spanish protocol to follow.
Thank you for highlighting this.
No it isn't. It is possible to travel in a pedestrian manner but is not only for pedestrians. This is about mixed usage.Can you answer the question if the entire CF is a pedestrian zone?
Please.
Thank you.No it isn't. It is possible to travel in a pedestrian manner but is not only for pedestrians. This is about mixed usage.
That is the best I can offer.
Having been nearly mowed down by cyclists on paths in Spain several times I agree one hundred percent. This would be a utopia for sure, but doubt it is possible to accomplish and too difficult to monitor successfully, even with laws in place.There is a happy medium - somewhere - where people on foot and people on wheels can co-exist reasonably happily and safely.
Well actually, yes. A pedestrian is someone who is walking, and if there is one thing people do on the camino, it is walk. But apart from splitting hairs over what is and is not a pedestrian area, what this extract does is indicate that the general principle in Spain is that cyclists give way to pedestrians, anywhere. Bristleboy's link has another link to the DGT:Can you answer the question if the entire CF is a pedestrian zone?
Please.
Every Camino begins with one step.Having been nearly mowed down by cyclists on paths in Spain several times I agree one hundred percent. This would be a utopia for sure, but doubt it is possible to accomplish and too difficult to monitor successfully, even with laws in place.
Splitting hairs?But apart from splitting hairs
The general principle in Spain is that cyclists give way to pedestrians, anywhere.
En el resto de situaciones, deben respetar las prioridades de otros usuarios como establezcan las normas y las señales.
We all have our own feelings and definitions of things camino or not. He asked me so I told him. Whatever you feel or the evidence you present makes for a great case to support your thoughts. But at the end of the day, it will not change my opinion. Having said that my opinion is no more valid or true than yours is. What I most objected to was the man's arrogance and manipulation. I grew up in the Bronx and I learned two things in my neighborhood. You can't be afraid and it is an obligation to call a spade a spade and to stand against the types of things he spewed. I was taught that by one of the wisest and smartest people I ever met, my dad. Secondly with the stuff that came out of his mouth he would have lasted about 10 seconds arguing with some of the boys on the corner. It wasn't a politically correct time or neighborhood but at least it was honest.Believe what you wish, but you may be in a very small minority there, A pilgrimage is usually defined as something on the lines of 'a visit to a place of spiritual, religious, cultural or personal significance, usually involving a journey'. No suggestion it has to be on foot. Until very recently, the Roman Catholic church encouraged visitors, sorry, pilgrims to come to Santiago by any means possible. In Japan, the 88 temples on Shikoku island are visited by dozens of 'henro' or pilgrims every day arriving by car, and the suggestion that one should complete the hadj by walking to Mecca is clearly absurd. Please do not dismiss or question the motives or sincerity of others.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?