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I might not have been able to contain my reaction - you clearly did very well being patient and polite.Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
I love humour. Thanks for a good laugh!@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.
By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?
Can some people be so dumb? Who pays to keep the donativo open? Just think of the name- DONATION! I've seen this behavior and am totally amazed at the entitlement some people feel. Selfish and very sad.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Hi and Congratulations! May I ask you a question about the COVID test requirement before you return to the US? Where were you able to get it? I am leaving on 10/11 to walk the Norte, and returning on 11/15. Right now no test is needed to enter Spain if fully vaccinated, but need test before returning. I was wondering how easy it was to get a test in Spain.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Nothing new. Imagine the original pilgrims had bandits to deal with.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Hola charo - eres con Atleti?@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.
By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?
According to Rebakah Scott the former hospital (as in centuries ago) operated by priest someplace near Moratinos had a graveyard full of pilgrims that the hospitleros had killed to loot them of all of their belongs. Maybe a notice like that at donativos would be an effective deterrent, it would be much more effective than: no shirt, no shoes, no backpack - hasta la vista, baby. We encountered a few of those at San Anton and Oliver was very effective at dealing with them, much to Reb's chagrin.Nothing new. Imagine the original pilgrims had bandits to deal with.
I am not sure what you are referring to but maybe a credit card scanner at the front door that randomly charges between 2 and 20 euros could be employed as that "modern" post Covid correction.This could be part of changing human behaviors due to the pandemic. At least I hope so. Still, it will take some years for it to correct itself.
There have always been moochers in every walk of life, no pun intended.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
I have a feeling the reason you have encountered this on the CF (as have I) is exactly what you said, a few "pilgrims" do not care. I have met a very few pilgrims who have told me they are walking because it is a cheap and fun holiday. Fine that is there business. I have no basis except my own observation that lesser traveled caminos draw pilgrims who have made more than one or even many pilgrimages in the past. I have been in touch with some fellow forum pilgrims who have or are walking the VDLP. I start next week. I think everyone I have spoken or written with have walked more than one or two caminos. Some many more.Like @VNwalking I haven't seen this on the less-travelled Caminos, but I have frequently run into the free albergues syndrome on the Francese-- my correction of this eerror gets some very frosty and disgusted looks but many pilgrims appear glad to have some information. Over the years, I have made presentations at a few dozen pilgrim training workshops and have been very clear that donativo does not mean free, and have encouraged prosperous pilgrims to top up their donations to help keep the system running. And again, have made it crystal-clear that reservations must be kept or cancelled, as not doing so deprives other pilgrims of accommodation and is really quite mean to family-run inns.
However, many pilgrims have never attended training sessions run by associations, nor have they even sat down with veteran pilgrims to get background-- with luck and gentle coaching by veterans, they get the pilgrim vibe and move along in the spirit of the Camino.
Judging by various fora, there seem to be a lot of prospective pilgrims who don't have any basic information at all-- I can't say if it's getting worse.
What you have said could not be more true, but once again it is an issue of preaching to the choir.Rather than a deterioration of behaviors, could it be an infiltration of behaviors/attitudes we see in other places where large numbers of people travel to? For example, like the refuse left on Mt Everest, or the nonchalant attitude of some who say, "I'll just pop on down to Africa and climb Kili; it's just a big hill, right?" without any training or knowledge of necessary acclimatization at high altitude (who then end up needing to be carried down the mountain).
As the Caminos have become a tourist destination/activity for many rather than a pilgrimage, we shouldn't be surprised that ignorance, carelessness, or whatever one cares to label it has become commonplace. Just as in the non-Camino world in which we live, it seems all we can do, from a tactical perspective, is to try to solve the problems right in front of us (as Pepi did), and from a strategic POV, to "not be like them."
Ummm.Sometimes we put 20 in the donativo box, sometimes 5, sometimes nothing. Sometimes we take cash out and pray that no-one's looking. That's the Camino
Yeah... I really don't think that treating a pilgrimage as a hook-up adventure is "the camino" either. Highway robbery, bar-fights... yes, that history and all manner of other nastiness is older than the road... but I do think it's not "just a holiday" and that we are meant to respect the endeavour, the people and culture that make it possible... and the cultural (religious, spiritual, linguistic, political...) foundation of these routes.Ummm.
Theft is nothing to do with the values of the camino, last I looked. It happens becuse we're humans, sadly, and not angels. But that doesn't mean 'it's the camino.'
I make a lot of advance bookings, but I never fail to show up, most especially when there’s no penalty charge for not notifying them beforehand. Even when I use Booking. com, I try to cancel as far as possible in advance. It’s good manners, isn’t it?A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
So sad when folk abuse the donativos by not not paying anything. So sad the folk abuse the good intentions of others.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Hopefully they will figure it out along The WayA recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Not exactly:If I remember correctly, the donativo box in Granon said something like "Give what you can, take what you need".
You remember correctly, but when I was there (3 times) the donativo box was a small box at a table. But I am an old man and may not remember correctly. Others may chime in here.View attachment 110645
That was the box where I put my donativo in, there was already money in there. It was not a normal "give and take" box for unwanted gear. Or maybe pilgrims just misused it for their donativo? Who knows. I might remember wrong, but pretty sure that was in Granon. The box was out in the open, when you had gotten up the staircase, it was on the left on a table. Please correct me if I remember incorrectly, it was over two years ago.
It wasn’t hidden when I last was there in 2012 and it did have that exact ‘mention’ on it quoted above.:
The donativo box in that albergue is somewhat hidden. Atleast, I had to ask where it was.
Well I'm just back from walking the Camino Portuguese and most of those I met were nice thoughtful pilgrims. Unfortunately we met four ladies walking who were very loud and crass. One of them was handing out slips of paper with her Instagram account and asking everyone to pin her on Instagram. They were very vocal in a racist way about immigrants etc and it was difficult to keep my tolerance. Clearly they were on the wrong journey. Fortunately overall this was a once off but even here in Ireland I hear people talking about "doing the Camino" and I always ask myself what are their motives. I'm sorry to hear of your recent disappointment while on the C.F and sincerely hope you will be able to remember all the positives from this and the other Caminos you have travelled. " May the road rise to meet you may the wind be at your back" DanielA recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
I agree especially about the donativos. On the VDLP one large one told me the average was about €4 and they provided evening meals and breakfast.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
That's true - and a real shame. Our friends (pilgrims also) who have a small gite on the Le Puy Way were for many years happy to take a phone reservation without requiring any deposit but always leaving some beds aside for 'walk ins'. In fact, they preferred it that way trusting that people would arrive on the day or let them know if their plans changed.(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
The old peregrineos can also be just as inconsiderate. Sometimes worse because we feel entitled.@Pepe You were a good peregrino! I understand your frustration, but I think I was pretty irresponsible when I was young. Don't regret trying to educate and help those young peregrinos.
By the way, I was looking for a bottom bunk in a room with a view away from the ice machine and elevator in the next town for tomorrow night and was wondering if you know a guy who knows a guy that might have one available?
I stayed in a Donativo at O Freixo somewhere in the hills near Vigo. The owner had a good ides. Guests paid 5 Euro up front and the rest donation. I think that is the way to go. Donativo's need to cover their costs.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Very good idea, so the inconsiderate folks diectly feel the consequences of their actions. That's the main problem - we are transients, so exerting pressure on these people is difficult.Another measure the local gite owners took, via their email group, was to inform gite owners in the towns following of the name of the 'no show' person so the other owners could make informed decisions about whether to accept any reservation from that person
A simple YES, the may reason I find that to these folk its just a walk and holiday. Some of the question raise my concern if these folk have ever travelled as most is comon sense.Like @VNwalking I haven't seen this on the less-travelled Caminos, but I have frequently run into the free albergues syndrome on the Francese-- my correction of this eerror gets some very frosty and disgusted looks but many pilgrims appear glad to have some information. Over the years, I have made presentations at a few dozen pilgrim training workshops and have been very clear that donativo does not mean free, and have encouraged prosperous pilgrims to top up their donations to help keep the system running. And again, have made it crystal-clear that reservations must be kept or cancelled, as not doing so deprives other pilgrims of accommodation and is really quite mean to family-run inns.
However, many pilgrims have never attended training sessions run by associations, nor have they even sat down with veteran pilgrims to get background-- with luck and gentle coaching by veterans, they get the pilgrim vibe and move along in the spirit of the Camino.
Judging by various fora, there seem to be a lot of prospective pilgrims who don't have any basic information at all-- I can't say if it's getting worse.
This seems completely reasonable. But then why in the world did they agree ahead of time before doing a dine&dash?? You have my sympathies, @trecile .when the bill came one pilgrim said, I'm a vegetarian, therefore I'm not paying for any of the dishes that had meat in them.
Exactly. He didn't raise objections when we were ordering, and ate larger shares of the non meat dishes.This seems completely reasonable. But then why in the world did they agree ahead of time before doing a dine&dash?? You have my sympathies, @trecile .
Exactly. No-one likes being taken advantage of.To add - I don't mind treating other pilgrims to a meal now and then, but I like it to be my choice.
I found (find) the Camino to be a wonderful place to be someone other than who I am normally being. It is a bit like the Internet in the real world, no one knows that I am a dog@Gerard Griffin I’ll agree the Camino has “broad shoulders”. It needs such to carry the burden of “us”, “them”, and all the others. Personally I’ve never behaved on Camino
Oops, EDIT: I’ve never behaved on Camino any different to how I behave in life. Sadly that tendency may well be expressed by those copping most criticism in this thread
I totally agree. I have always traveled with a family member/s, and only ate with other pilgrims at the communal dinners where each person paid ahead of time for their own meal. I always wondered how groups on the Camino dining together worked out the payments. Now I know...a few sometimes get stung which is unfortunately no surprise as I have experienced it myself elsewhere, and it usually does involve younger people contributing much less or nothing.To add - I don't mind treating other pilgrims to a meal now and then, but I like it to be my choice.
Well, I think sometimes we are just more attuned to it than other times.I suspect there is more selfishness in the general population than there used to be, so it’s not just a camino trend.
And my messages are grim?According to Rebakah Scott the former hospital (as in centuries ago) operated by priest someplace near Moratinos had a graveyard full of pilgrims that the hospitleros had killed to loot them of all of their belongs. Maybe a notice like that at donativos would be an effective deterrent, it would be much more effective than: no shirt, no shoes, no backpack - hasta la vista, baby. We encountered a few of those at San Anton and Oliver was very effective at dealing with them, much to Reb's chagrin.
I totally agree. I have always traveled with a family member/s, and only ate with other pilgrims at the communal dinners where each person paid ahead of time for their own meal. I always wondered how groups on the Camino dining together worked out the payments. Now I know...a few sometimes get stung which is unfortunately no surprise as I have experienced it myself elsewhere, and it usually does involve younger people contributing much less or nothing.
As parents, most of us enjoy picking up the bill for our kids, even when they reach adulthood, but a Camino "family" is completely different.
I always wondered how groups on the Camino dining together worked out the payments.
I can see where cooking together in the albergue kitchen is a different thing and collecting a few euros ahead of times seems simple enough and works well. @trecile was speaking of a large group eating out together at a dining establishment and I concurred with a few of my own similar experiences in life.I usually had dinner cooking in the albergue.
Agreed. Hence my comments about the thoroughly "adult" person who created a fair amount of trouble for a handful of people over 2 days....I usually had dinner cooking in the albergue. When there was a group who wanted to dine together, either we collected a few Euros from everyone upfront before going to the supermarket or split up the money that was spent to buy the ingredients and wine afterwards, equally. Usually wasn't more than five Euros per person, often less. Always worked, no problems.
That was younger pilgrims mostly. Everyone buying ingredients, cooking, eating and cleaning up together.
I find it quite sad how bad behaviour is getting linked to age in some of the posts here. Individuals of all ages can act irresponsible, inconsiderate or plain rude, including the described 'dine and dash' / freeloading / whatever you call it. Linking that to a certain age or demographic only helps to reinforce prejudice, in my opinion.
I didn't say that all younger people behave inconsiderately, but some have not matured enough to take full responsibility for their lives, since they have been used to older adults, i.e., their parents paying their way. I may have been like them when I was younger! I do know that at 18 I still had a lot of growing up to do. I still enjoy their company, but have learned to beware of situations where there will be only one bill for the table.I find it quite sad how bad behaviour is getting linked to age in some of the posts here. Individuals of all ages can act irresponsible, inconsiderate or plain rude, including the described 'dine and dash' / freeloading / whatever you call it. Linking that to a certain age or demographic only helps to reinforce prejudice, in my opinion.
I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say. But… in Andalucia, oh… over 50 years agoAgreed. Hence my comments about the thoroughly "adult" person who created a fair amount of trouble for a handful of people over 2 days....
And certainly we've seen *years* worth of commentary now about the less than optimal habits, lack of consideration, etc (especially around the TP and loo issues) of those of us well past youth...
That said, I do have a rather humorous tic about the camino and that is this: I find it very very difficult to "get with the programme" of the locals who throw their paper serviettes on the floor after eating. I think I understand the idea (that sweeping up is less gross than picking up soiled paper off tables), but I still balk at what seems to my sensibilities as "rude". I promise myself that if I am ever in Leon again, I will toss my used serviettes on the floor with the rest of them.
I imagine that being attracted to, and meeting and possibly having relations with members of the opposite sex (and same sex) whilst on pilgrimage is as old as the Camino itself. No way would I believe that medieval pilgrims trod piously across the countryside, chastity intact the entire journey. No way. It's only natural, and especially in younger hormones, for people to want to "hook up" and the fact that it is happening on an ancient religious pilgrimage ain't gonna stop it. I can't see it as nauseating. I think it's wonderful and if I was thirty or so years younger, thirty pounds lighter lean and mean and with my full head of brown hair back I would do it myself. I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex.As to the skirt-chaser.... I am as horrified by that aspect as by the no-shows pulled with albergues. I really, really am nauseated by those of any age who treat camino as though it's a hook-up adventure.
The first time that I encountered anything like this was in Mexico City, 1982.I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say. But… in Andalucia, oh… over 50 years agoit was the norm. You ate prawns for instance and threw everything on the floor Your high bar stools kept your feet well off the floor. I was a kid then and was flabbergasted Loved it!
But no, haven’t witnessed it for a long time, either on the various Caminos or any large cities. Or even little towns actually
the locals who throw their paper serviettes on the floor after eating.
I have certainly seen it in recent years. Not everyone does it, but the floor is still rather littered with paper napkins. They are tiny little napkins that would not serve for more than one wipe, and seem to be designed for that purpose!I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say.
So sad. Bad behavior for sure. "That's why we can't have anything nice. " These people ruin things for everyone else. Sadly it is true for so much in life now.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
I'm a vegetarian who doesn't drink wine. (I know, I know...you're probably thinking, no fun. I beg to differBut I can see how problems could easily arise if some only wanted a small meal, others wanted to eat a lot, some were not wine drinkers
Fine, but i wish people would do that in private.I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex
Do what in private? Be attracted to each other?I'm a vegetarian who doesn't drink wine. (I know, I know...you're probably thinking, no fun. I beg to differ). I don't want to pay for others' meat and wine, so in the rare times I've been in a big group I ordered and paid individually. It's just less messy that way. Smaller groups of friends are another matter; we know each other and it all comes out in the wash.
Bad behavior is everywhere and always has been. We're human, and sometimes it's gross.
Fine, but i wish people would do that in private.
Nope… sorry. I have been hunted enough when I was younger, and even grabbed on my first camino by a young man who thought I was significantly younger than I am… I was merely walking past a table of pilgrims, returning from getting my things from the farmacia and he pulled me into his lap…I imagine that being attracted to, and meeting and possibly having relations with members of the opposite sex (and same sex) whilst on pilgrimage is as old as the Camino itself. No way would I believe that medieval pilgrims trod piously across the countryside, chastity intact the entire journey. No way. It's only natural, and especially in younger hormones, for people to want to "hook up" and the fact that it is happening on an ancient religious pilgrimage ain't gonna stop it. I can't see it as nauseating. I think it's wonderful and if I was thirty or so years younger, thirty pounds lighter lean and mean and with my full head of brown hair back I would do it myself. I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex.
I'm sorry for any negative experiences you have had in your past, but I certainly was not referring to any type of sexual assault or harassment in my comments. It sounds like we are talking about two different things.Nope… sorry. I have been hunted enough when I was younger, and even grabbed on my first camino by a young man who thought I was significantly younger than I am… I was merely walking past a table of pilgrims, returning from getting my things from the farmacia and he pulled me into his lap…
It nauseates me, and I hope for one place in the world where it’s not like reliving 7th grade crap With girls competing for who can get the most attention, and boys yammering about who is the most attractive.
That’s not attraction… it’s narcissism and predation… and it’s weird and toxic.… and that’s what I’m talking about... Not “attraction”.
Clearly. Fortuitous attraction versus what sounds like a toxic party scene.It sounds like we are talking about two different things.
Haha, RJM, do I have to spell it out?Do what in private? Be attracted to each other?
I think people often miscalculate the appropriate amount for a night in a donativo because they base it on what the municipales charge. What they don't realise is that the municipal albergues are heavily subsidised. A couple of years ago, a Voz de Galicia article reported that the Xunta was upping the price from 5 euros to 8 euros, which according to the figures they had would just about cover the costs. Donativos must have similar if not higher costs. Having said that, most of the donativos I've had experience of go to some length to point out that they are not actually free, with mixed success: average contributions ranged from 2.5 euros for bed and evening meal to 8 euros for bed and breakfast.i heard a young man from Ireland complain(!) because the recommended amount for the donativo was €4 but then the full evening meal would have been something like 8€ each and the guys thought that was too much! So the guys got together, bought their own food, came back to the place and cooked it (used the electricity, the water, the stove and the refrigerator to prepare a meal for themselves! He thought they were being cheated-cause they only spent about € 5 a piece! I looked at his raingear and the shoes he was wearing…good quality I thought…....and that he was nice enough….but completely self involved….
I’m walking now, CF, and pretty shocked at the behavior of men in their 60s seeming obsessed with talking about women, young women, old women as objects and their attractiveness loudly among strangers. Just today, a loud citizen of my country speaking of a women and IDing her by her country and saying how “ _____ is SO in love with her”. He sounded like a 12 year old boy!!!! and sadly I was forwarned of his behavior a week ago…Nope… sorry. I have been hunted enough when I was younger, and even grabbed on my first camino by a young man who thought I was significantly younger than I am… I was merely walking past a table of pilgrims, returning from getting my things from the farmacia and he pulled me into his lap…
It nauseates me, and I hope for one place in the world where it’s not like reliving 7th grade crap With girls competing for who can get the most attention, and boys yammering about who is the most attractive.
That’s not attraction… it’s narcissism and predation… and it’s weird and toxic.… and that’s what I’m talking about... Not “attraction”.
And I’m not talking about casually finding oneself attracted to a person without that having been the goal. I am talking about the people who treat camino like the objective is a string of hook-ups. I’ve seen it… on 2 of 3 caminos… (dunno if it didn’t happen on the CP because of season, or being a “secondary route”… whatever)… and it created drama, bad feelings, broken hearts, inflated egos… it was ugly and I had to pull Spouse out of the middle of it on the 2nd camino because he had become a “Camino dad” in a group of young people where sex drama had overtaken the rest of stuff — with people hiding out, people trying to catch up to… just, yuck.
I feel safe to say this is my last FRANCES! The people who put on their alarms at 0530 AM and go back to bed with each “snooze”, while the rest of us now have to wake … the sticks pounding the pavement in ridiculous places where you can’t hear a bird or cricket ( and the user calling it “ rhythmic “ ( for him maybe)… and hearing loud phone notifications ALL DAY , loud alarms I guess for EVERY text message people get. You can’t sit in an albergue garden without hearing “ dump dah da dump dump” on peoples phones for every text they get. This is such ODD behavior. I have six kids, five at home, one with severe special needs and I don’t need to hear every notification I get. Most of my texts are alerting me that “ ____ is due for a tooth cleaning”…. certainly not worthy of a five second loud obnoxious signal! I guess I have no friends- sigh..A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.I imagine that being attracted to, and meeting and possibly having relations with members of the opposite sex (and same sex) whilst on pilgrimage is as old as the Camino itself. No way would I believe that medieval pilgrims trod piously across the countryside, chastity intact the entire journey. No way. It's only natural, and especially in younger hormones, for people to want to "hook up" and the fact that it is happening on an ancient religious pilgrimage ain't gonna stop it. I can't see it as nauseating. I think it's wonderful and if I was thirty or so years younger, thirty pounds lighter lean and mean and with my full head of brown hair back I would do it myself. I would have had no problem combining my strong spiritual and religious beliefs, desire to walk an ancient Christian pilgrimage with my attraction to like minded members of the opposite sex.
Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.
Agreed… that was the biggest mental-clutter kind of drag on my first camino for the first few days to about Puenta de la Reina… After that I just walked alone a lot more, found my accommodations on my own a lot more, etc.I do understand what you are saying but I would like to stress that not only youngsters behave in such a way! I saw some obnoxious behaviour with seniors also. And they should even know better!
I think some walked as a form of punishment both then and now.Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.
I know we’ve had a recent discussion of this proposal. The thread was closed because things got contentious and rude. So I would suggest that anyone who is inclined to comment here should read that closed thread and see if there is anything new to add.As regards booking ahead, I think it would be better to scrap that entirely and just have an online system where you can see in real time where vacancies exist, no messing around.
I think you hit one important point spot on, Manners. I was taught many things by my parents, respect your elders, Give you seat to a elder or infirmed/pregnant, open the door for a woman or others, say please and thank you, these are just a few things that we commonly call polite today but are generally referred to as good manners. I did my best to pass these same values/manners on to my children who are now passing them on to theirs. Not everyone has passed these values of human politeness on to the next generation.I make a lot of advance bookings, but I never fail to show up, most especially when there’s no penalty charge for not notifying them beforehand. Even when I use Booking. com, I try to cancel as far as possible in advance. It’s good manners, isn’t it?
I haven’t experienced this in Spain recently, I must say. But… in Andalucia, oh… over 50 years agoit was the norm. You ate prawns for instance and threw everything on the floor Your high bar stools kept your feet well off the floor. I was a kid then and was flabbergasted Loved it!
But no, haven’t witnessed it for a long time, either on the various Caminos or any large cities. Or even little towns actually
Photo from a small town along the Camino Primitivo, 2018. It's still a thing!I have certainly seen it in recent years. Not everyone does it, but the floor is still rather littered with paper napkins. They are tiny little napkins that would not serve for more than one wipe, and seem to be designed for that purpose!
lol...yes, I know what you mean but I initially wasn't, or only partially thinking along those lines.Clearly. Fortuitous attraction versus what sounds like a toxic party scene.
Haha, RJM, do I have to spell it out?
I bet you you know what I mean.
(I'm sure I'm not the only person who's tried to sleep in the same dorm where heavy petting was going on. It's gross.)
I think that’s an awful batting average, accepting a couple getting it on in the company of others on a pilgrimage twice a year, or four times a year ( based on 180 days mentioned)… gross!lol...yes, I know what you mean but I initially wasn't, or only partially thinking along those lines.
I can honestly say though, I've spent over 180 days on the Camino(s) and only once (maybe twice?) I came across a couple in an albergue dorm room, fully coupled up (so to speak). I have to say, that's not a bad batting average in regards to that specific behavior, though I do agree they needed to "get a room" as the saying goes. What I observed more of was stuff like leaving albergue toilets a mess (yes, that kind of stinky mess), pilgrims dumping all their gear all over the floor in between the beds (why? I mean, why?), eating on beds, dusty backpack on beds. Things like that, and said pilgrims were of many nationalities and age groups etc.
Funny thing is, in regards to the current pandemic situation and walking the Camino, I would be more than happy to put up with all that silly crap again just to be able to walk the Camino again as it was before.
Looks like we're heading down the same path...I know we’ve had a recent discussion of this proposal. The thread was closed because things got contentious and rude. So I would suggest that anyone who is inclined to comment here should read that closed thread and see if there is anything new to add.
And as you contemplate that, remember that the title of the thread refers to behavior on the camino not on the forum.
My wife and I have only been doing the less traveled caminos in recent years. Rather than deteriorating behavior, we have been heartened by the generosity of pilgrims, especially at donativos, for replenishing needed items in the bathrooms and kitchens as a donation in addition to any money they leave. This generosity is one of a number of factors that keeps drawing us to the lesser traveled caminos. We also found that pilgrims on these caminos reach out to help each other when they see something amiss. They don't wait to be asked. And the villagers...they are all embracing.A recent cancer- and open-heart surgery survivor, I just completed my sixth wonderful, thoroughly enjoyable CF.
These two particular experiences though saddened me:
Chatting with a young couple from Costa Rica, they raved about the Camino's system of free-of-charge albergues; turned out that they meant Donativos. I patiently and politely corrected their misunderstanding but I am not sure if they really took it at heart.
Before departing, a first-timer from the US walking the same route at the same time asked me via this forum for various advice and some help in booking rooms. I referred him to booking.com but there were a few places that do not use this costly service, so I made the reservation for him by phone. (In most of these cases, the owners knew me)
The young first-timer thoroughly enjoyed his Camino, especially the female companions; to follow them, he kept skipping the reservations. He canceled the places with Booking.com reservations through the system to avoid charges, but not those that I booked for him, as I was told by the Inn-keepers.
Such behavior will ultimately lead to
(a) the further disappearance of Donativos
(b) forcing the Inn-keepers to join the costly Booking.com empire in order to protect themselves against no-shows;
As for me, I most certainly will never book for another person again.
Are these observations of mine singular occurrences or is there a regretful trend for deteriorating behavior on the Camino?
I was not the only pilgrim in the dorm when one incident specifically comes to mind, and we just looked at each and laughed and left the dorm (was in the afternoon). I quite honestly do not expect puritan behavior from everyone walking the Camino. As far as acceptance of their behavior? What should have I done? Loudly said "hey you two! get a room!" or something like that all the while wagging a pious finger in their direction?I think that’s an awful batting average, accepting a couple getting it on in the company of others on a pilgrimage twice a year, or four times a year ( based on 180 days mentioned)… gross!
My young daughters have been in Caminos about that much time and this behavior if witnessed by them is disgusting!!!!!
“Scoring” anywhere is not wholesome.Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.
As I understand it, not all pilgrims of centuries past were exactly pious. Some were given the choice of prison or the Camino, and others were paid to walk it by rich people who didn't want to go themselves.Well, I can see a difference inasmuch as the camino hundreds of years ago was undertaken by the pious, at risk of limb and life. There were easier ways to score back then than undertake a dangerous 1000km-plus journey. Of course, if the opportunity arose, I expect they grasped it. No such risks nowadays though, allowing the thoughts of those youngsters so interested to be concentrated accordingly, unfortunately resulting in no-shows for reserved accommodation.
Yes definitely omit the pious finger - pointy fingers never change minds. But if no-one says something how are people going to know that what they're doing is objectionable?As far as acceptance of their behavior? What should have I done? Loudly said "hey you two! get a room!" or something like that all the while wagging a pious finger in their direction?
I think this is a great idea! Immediately after writing mine I felt guilty as I don’t want to influence newbies with my words, the Camino is great. I stand by my every word, but would totally support a “ place” for them.Maybe it would be good to have a small forum section for "ranting and venting" "negative experiences on the Camino" or something like that.
As someone else said before, it can be cathartic to write such things down and to discuss them, that's a very human thing to do, and it can be helpful.
But maybe if there was a dedicated section for such threads as this one, that way the negativity that tends to come with them could perhaps be somewhat contained, instead of being all over the forum...? Just a thought.
Have you read Chaucer's 'Canterbury Tales'? If you get enough heterogenous humans together in the same place at the same time, there is pretty well no limit to what they will begin to do with each other.“Scoring” anywhere is not wholesome.
Of course, in this case the offenders were clearly not in self-centred, individual bubbles. If they had been, the situation would not have occurred. But I have been witness (if that is the right word) to pilgrims getting it on in the middle of the afternoon in a public albergue dorm, and they were neither young nor newly acquainted. They were an elderly married couple. The problem is what to do when someone's behaviour is clearly and obviously unacceptable. You think to yourself 'they must know this is unacceptable, but they are still doing it, so what would be the point of me telling them?'. My perception is that the camino is a remarkable example of a very large number of total strangers behaving extremely well with one another, so the exceptions stand out like small black dots on a large white surface. Maybe we need two threads: a spleen-venting thread and a what-to-do-constructively-about-bad-behaviour thread. Next camino perhaps I will take a laminated card (or perhaps a pack of little business cards) containing the phrase 'Would you mind not doing that?' in 50 different languages.Yes definitely omit the pious finger - pointy fingers never change minds. But if no-one says something how are people going to know that what they're doing is objectionable?
A quiet and kind word on the side (rather than in public) after the fact is perhaps warranted. I know someone who gently read the riot act to a 20-something who was in their own little self-centered bubble, and she got a positive response because the person had been genuinely oblivious. But it's delicate and takes a lot if tact. I keep my mouth shut because tact is not my strong suit and I'd be tempted to blurt out something like what you wrote.
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