Divine Providence/Crop Theft

[Rebekah Scott]

An unpleasant experience with three pilgrims and the Guardia Civil and a farmer.

The farmer this morning found the young men, pilgrims, camping on the edge of his wheat field. They had trampled several square meters of ripening rye. They had stripped the bark and branches off several nearby trees to make a campfire, which burned a strip of the field -- rendering the ground unusable for growing things for at least one season. They had taken garlic and spring onions from the huerta nearby, and were using stakes from a vineyard to peg up their tents. The farmer is hopping mad, saying that passing pilgrims ruined his vineyard last year by helping themselves to his grapes, and now they are stealing from his neighbors and ruining his feed crops, too.

The pilgrims campsite was neat and clean. The men said they are members of a "green community," and were going to Santiago with no money or food. They were "living off the Earth´s abundance," they said, "letting the land and camino provide." They usually stay in building sites and "free" albergues, but someone gave them tents so they pitch them up alongside fields and forage for what food the can at restaurant kitchen doors and trash bins, when other pilgrims or panhandling do not yield sufficient.They seem like fine guys -- just a bit unkempt.

The guardia took them away. The officers looked puzzled. I am not sure they know what charges to file against them, but the farmer said he would turn his dogs on them if they stayed around.

 

[johnnyman]

Sorry, but they don't seem like fine people to me ...

 

[SabsP]

Sorry to say but it is the farmer's income we are talking about. I sympathise with the farmer. Something similar is happening here in summer ( I live in the main fruit region of Belgium ) when a lot of cyclists and walkers ( 1500 people a day in an area of 15 kilometer ) think they can pick apples, pears and cherries to their liking. Can you imagine if every tourist just picks one apple : that is 1500 apples a day, a major loss for the farmers.

 

[+@^^]

i think i recognise the indigent "camino-will-provide" pilgrims from this forum ?

 

[nellpilgrim]

Thats a pity maybe instead of been carted away those lads should have been given the chance to do a few chores for the farmer? Perhaps learning in the process just how hard his farming life is and how stuff that they didn't rate as valuable are in fact important resources for the farmer....and maybe the farmer might even have learnt they were really ok guys just a bit thoughtless and self focused.
N

 

[WolverineDG]

I'm all for "going green," but without getting permission to do any of what they did is wrong.

Kelly

 

[+@^^]

i must confess to having part-taken of a little crop theft myself
.
and i m sure many a pligrim might need to look around for the closest confession box
.
however there are rules
and even amongst thieves there is honour
.
i walked with this French dude (i miss you Francois)
and he spelled it out for me.....
.
taking one piece of fruit is admiration for the farmers fine agricultural abilities
2 pieces of fruit is theft

 

[crackmrmac]

Thats a pity maybe instead of been carted away those lads should have been given the chance to do a few chores for the farmer? Perhaps learning in the process just how hard his farming life is and how stuff that they didn't rate as valuable are in fact important resources for the farmer....and maybe the farmer might even have learnt they were really ok guys just a bit thoughtless and self focused.
N

Sensible words Nellie. Things are not as they are, things are as you are.

 

[renegadepilgrim]

Sounds to me like their behavior was anything but "green". They damaged someone's property. How is that "green"? I remember there being a discussion on here last year about picking fruit off farmer's property. Seems only natural that it would come up again.

 

[nellpilgrim]

Hi Crackmrmac remember this posting from last year? I thought that, in this context it was worth repeating. And though it may be an peculiarly Irish solution 'eejits acting the maggot' are pretty universal. Most jurisdictions could do with a large dose of Judge Hughes' common sense don't you think? Perhaps as these young fellows were already on pilgrimage the learned judge might suggest that as an atonement they carry some stones (or even better the packs of some other less able bodied pilgrims :lol: ) to Santiago like pilgrims of old -as a reminder of the burden they caused the farmer

Man told to climb Reek gives cash to charities
"A man who was ordered to climb Croagh Patrick for verbally abusing two gardaí has raised almost €3,000 for charity after completing the hike with 13 friends.
Joseph McElwee was ordered to climb the mountain in Co Mayo by Judge Séamus Hughes after being found guilty of threatening and abusing gardaí while drunk in Donegal on March 28th....
Judge Hughes, who is himself a native of Mayo, ordered McElwee to do four stations of the famous mountain as a mark of respect for his fellow Irish people, especially those in the line of duty.
At the time, he instructed McElwee: “I want you to come back in a month’s time with evidence that you did the four stations of Croagh Patrick and say a few prayers. You then might have a different impression of Co Mayo and its people.”
Unemployed McElwee (38) returned to court yesterday and produced pictures of himself, his wife and 12 other friends climbing the mountain. He told Judge McElwee he regretted what he had done and had managed to raise €2,900 for charity during the climb".

Nell

 

[Br. David]

No wonder the farmer was angry! Those people have no sense of boundaries at all - trampling crops, stripping bark off trees - vandals.

I rather like the idea of having them work to offset the damage, and the plain rudeness of treating other peoples' property like that.

I remember a family, back in the early 70's, who arrived in Bath and stayed for a couple of weeks. They were a young couple with a small child and had been living in London high up in a block of council flats on a bad estate (for our American cousins - housing projects). They couldn't find work, there were drugs and gangs - they wanted a new life. So over a period of weeks they bought a cheap tent in a charity shop (goodwill store), a couple of rucksacks and a pram - all cheap secondhand, took a bus to the edge of London and started walking west in search of a new life, their plan to get down to Cornwall (the furthest southwest you can go and rather beautiful).

They didn't have enough money to get there, nor to set up a new home but believed that the world would provide and nothing could be worse than what they were leaving, the difference here being that they would ask, and they would work as they went.
Each evening they stopped at a farm and asked permission to camp, in exchange for some simple labouring on the farm. They were not refused once, and they worked willingly.

They were really genuine honest, nice people and their plan worked so well that it took them nearly eight months to get to Bath, which is only 125 miles from London, as they kept getting asked to stay for a few days, or a week, or even longer. A number of times they were invited to stay in the farmhouse but preferred their camping life. When they arrived in Bath they were happy, healthy, clean, and confident. They had money from being paid by farmers. We gave them work and they stayed in Bath for a couple of weeks before moving on again.

I never saw them again but am absolutely certain that they are doing well. I was going to say 'found what they were looking for' but I think they found that the first day they started walking.

When I vote for wild camping on the Camino it is with that sort of attitude in mind, that open heart, not the selfish arrogant style of those young men.

 

[+@^^]

camping is intents

 

[RENSHAW]

[quote="Rebekah ........They were "living off the Earth´s abundance," they said, "letting the land and camino provide." .......They seem like fine guys -- just a bit unkempt. [/quote]

NO! , they were living off OTHER'S abundance.You're too soft Rebekah. I Know that there are many Pilgrims that believe that helping themselves to fruit or crops is a right -bull shine!A lot of those little vegetable gardens next to The Way belong to the Old and the Poor and they have toiled hard to put food on the table.These pilgrims who caused the damage , disadvantaged or not , need to be educated and told that their behavior is undesirable.
Come on! One can at least ask permission?
The pilgrims were fortunate that the farmer did not press charges - imagine if they had camped on your 'Peaceable' Lawn and helped themselves to what they wanted, leaving a burnt pach on your manicured lawn?
............... But I think my answer was what you were trying to promote anyway :mrgreen:

 

[nousername]

The first rule of 'living of nature' is nature conservation, without it you destroy nature.

Enjoy and have faith.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I´m not really trying to promote anything except some awareness among pilgrims and would-be pilgrims. I am constantly amazed at the lovely people who so casually talk about taking grapes and fruit and other growing things from the fields and orchards along the Way. It just never occurs to them that somebody worked to grow those things -- they aren´t just put there for pilgrims to help themselves.

No word on what became of the men. There is a precedent for driving them to the edge of the province and dropping them off there, to continue their journey elsewhere!

Reb.

 

[newfydog]

To me, events of this type are part of the tradition. Pilgrims of the past weren't all love and spirituality, they were a mix which ranged from brigands to the pious. In Sarria, there is an old prison, built specifically for problem pilgrims. Perhaps it should be reactivated for this crew.

Myself, I don't steal fruit. It seems there is plenty just to pick up. One year we went through a Rioja vineyard as they were trimming the grapes to improve the late ripening. Half the crop was trimmed and left on the ground to rot. They seemed plenty ripe already to us. Another time a tractor hauling a cart full of grapes hit a bump and dumped about five kilos of grapes in the road right in front of us. The best however, were the apples of the Cote du Rhone. The best apples in the world, better by far than anything out of Washington, and they were only harvesting half the crop, letting the rest fall to the ground and rot. Maybe a subsidy quota or something. I ran into a German pelerin, and he asked "Have you tried these incredible apples?" I opened my beg to show him the dozen we were carrying.

As far as divine providence goes, one time we took a wrong turn descending from O Cebriero, and had a long climb back up without food. That was the only part of the trip where the wild blackberries were still in their prime!

 

[andy.d]

I was reading something about Francis of Assisi last week. From memory, he was walking with St Leo who was famished. Francis picked grapes to revive him, but then gladly suffered a beating from the farmer.

Andy

 

[Anniesantiago]

One year we went through a Rioja vineyard as they were trimming the grapes to improve the late ripening.

Are you sure they weren't laying out the grapes to dry to make raisins?
That is what we do in the San Joaquin Valley ---

 

[RENSHAW]

Myself, I don't steal fruit. .............

Just about sums it up for me.

 

[newfydog]

One year we went through a Rioja vineyard as they were trimming the grapes to improve the late ripening.

Are you sure they weren't laying out the grapes to dry to make raisins?
That is what we do in the San Joaquin Valley ---

No, they were definitely thrown out. I was surprised they didn't do something with the waste, and surprised they were doing it so late in the season. They were dropped onto plowed dirt, and many were stepped on or driven over.

Trimming back wine grapes is standard practice for high quality wine. Some areas don't allow the wine to carry the region's label if the the harvest exceeds a certain number of kilos per hectare. They want the fewer grapes with higher flavor.

 

[RENSHAW]

Trimming back wine grapes is standard practice for high quality wine. Some areas don't allow the wine to carry the region's label if the the harvest exceeds a certain number of kilos per hectare. They want the fewer grapes with higher flavor.

Yup! , as well as destroying ' Inferior ' Viveyards , thousands of hectares destroyed and compensated for by 'Euro' authorities - we are all paying to destroy perfectly good consumable goods? ....... Crazy!!??

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The economics of wine are complex. Last fall, I stayed at a winery/vineyard in France owned by an English woman. She was not even harvesting her acreage last year because of low prices. She received no subsidy and no instructions from government or industry. It just wasn't worth the effort. Her description was far too long to write here, but the bottom line was that she was done after thirty years in the business.

 

[WolverineDG]

Regarding fruit, nuts, etc, if it's in the public right of way, it's fair game. If it slaps you in the face, fair game. Right beside the camino, overhanging a bit? Fair game.

If you have to take more than a few steps or walk onto what is obviously someone's property, it belongs to someone else & you shouldn't take it without permission.

Kelly

 

[Br. David]

The economics of wine are complex. Last fall, I stayed at a winery/vineyard in France owned by an English woman. She was not even harvesting her acreage last year because of low prices. She received no subsidy and no instructions from government or industry. It just wasn't worth the effort. Her description was far too long to write here, but the bottom line was that she was done after thirty years in the business.

Crikey - this isn't foxey is it? I've been looking for her since she bought a vineyard and I stayed there some thirty or so years ago

.p.s. I try to assist the economics of wine production in Western Europe by only drinking French or occasionally Spanish - emptying a fair number over each year - purely to help their economies you understand. :wink:

 

[Anniesantiago]

Crikey!

I never heard this word used until Crocodile Dundee, and I don't know why this word bothers me, so I looked it up.

From the Urban Dictionary on "CRIKEY" :

Of Australian origin:

Similar to blimey;

Shortened corruption of "Christ the King" to express displeasure at a happening or event.

Maybe that's why... I don't know... :roll:

 

[Debinq]

Re: Crikey!

Hola Annie

It's actually more an expression of astonishment or an exclamation re something unexpected
The late Steve Irwin used it to death in his series .... no pun intended!
Say when he wrestled a juvenile croc which turned out to be stronger than he expected : 'Crikey, he's a tough little bastard!'

have a look at Nesbitt in AE
>
>"Crikey" is Australian slang, which some people find offensive, since it is a variation of "Christ."

I am pasting in below information from The Oxford English Dictionary -- the world's foremost authority of word and phrase origins. According to the OED, the frist WRITTEN appearance of the word in the English language was in 1838.


[As this alliterates with Christ, or L. Christe! it was perh. originally one of the alliterative or assonant substitutes for sacred names, used to avoid the appearance of profanity: cf. CRIMINE.]

An exclamation of astonishment.

1838 Actors by Daylight I. 24 Crikey, oh crikey! How very flat, stale and abominable Seem to me all the acting of this world. 1842 BARHAM Ingol. Leg., Auto-da-fé, It would make you exclaim..if an Englishman, Crikey! 1884 Harper's Mag. Oct. 693/1 Cricky! didn't she go it, though! 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 223 Crickey, is there nothing for us to eat? 1924 D. H. LAWRENCE & SKINNER Boy in Bush 85 Crickey! Stop up another night! It'ud make ye sawney. 1960 J. RAE Custard Boys I. i. 16 Crikey, I thought, he's tough.
happy trails
Peter

 

[Anniesantiago]

I think I just need to get over it! lol :lol:

It's like saying "Dang!" or "Kowabunga!" I guess.

 

[Debinq]

yes - more or less I s'pose (altho' I wonder abt "kowabunga")
'Hot dang', 'Hot tamales' 'Holy Dooley', Holy cow!' ... or how about that other solid 'strine' exclamation: 'struth!' ("Struth love, don't get yer knickers in a twist!")

happy trails
Peter

 

[Br. David]

Crikey! I never expected such a reaction .... in England it is associated with the early to mid twentieth century, public school and grammar school slang. Not a lower class term. Berty wooster used it frequently.
Some english grey beards still use it (as you see). :wink:

Americans may say 'shoot' ?

–interjection
(used as an exclamation of surprise, amazement, dismay, etc.)

 

[Telluridewalker]

What a pleasantly peripatetic thread!

IMHO (not that anyone asked):

Letting the Camino provide: Any one who takes produce off someone else's land without permission is a bum and should be given the bum's rush forthwith.

Blue etymology: Unfortunately, the new "accepted" cuss word in America is "fricking," which publicly substitutes for its still unacceptable cousin, "f***ing." I find it a sad development, but who can the language command?

Agriculture subsidies around the world: Don't get me started...

And now back to the Camino, already in progress...

 

[ffp13]

IMHO- letting the camino provide from a farm is like the camino providing from my unattended backpack. Like the farmer I too would be angry if a pilgrim helped himself to my pack, but would happily share with a hungry pilgrim if asked, I am sure the farmer would be obliging if asked by a genuine person in need.
On my last camino I had thought of picking some fruit, ( but nothing was ripe) however, after reading this thread I support the opposite view.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I suppose I need to stop using this one, too:

criminy dutch - A mild expletive, a substitute no doubt for "Christ Jesus!" or "Jesus Christ!," which might be offensive to some people.

e.g., Criminy dutch, we was s'posta be over to the Dew Drop Inn two hours ago to play competitive knuckle cracking.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hahaha Br. David, don't sweat it.

HOLY SMOKES! I use LOTS of weird sayings too!
I was just pokin' fun! :lol:

Regarding the stealing of fruit, I have to admit to nabbing a few grapes along the way on my first Camino. I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley in a farming family. In my time, it was a regular practice to plant 2 outside rows for the animals and "poor folk." In other words, it was expected loss and given as a sort of tithe to animals and people who needed the food. You just factored that loss in. This could be a left over practice from the Great Depression, I don't know, and it could be just native to that area. My grandfather, who was a farmer himself and grew cotton, grapes, walnuts, apricots and wheat, would stop when we were traveling and help himself to a bunch of grapes, nuts, whatever anytime we were on the road. Gleaning was expected, and once when I went with my aunt out to where potatoes were being picked, we asked the farmer who told us he'd dug up the two outer rows "for the folk" and we could take all we could carry.

So the first time I walked, I had no qualms about nabbing grapes.

Since then, I've realized that the sheer numbers of pilgrims along this road could quickly damage a farmer's crop and income and I've mended my ways. It's too bad, really, because there's something magical in picking your breakfast - but alas - times have changed and I'll just live with all the other "magics" of the Camino!

 

[dutchpilgrim]

Hi all,

On my Camino in 2008 I had some grapes from a vineyard, _after_ harvesting, only a few bunches of grapes were hanging, as if the farmer had left them over there for the pilgrims.
Another pilgrim called me a thief, but after explaining that those grapes were given to me by St. James, I saw him stealing as well.
In my opinion:
Look what you are doing.
Don't pick apples from a fruit-yard, or from a tree near a house. But if you see figs on a tree, in the open, with fallen-off fruits on the ground...

Ultreya,
Carli Di Bortolo

 

[johnnyman]

I suppose I need to stop using this one, too:

criminy dutch - A mild expletive, a substitute no doubt for "Christ Jesus!" or "Jesus Christ!," which might be offensive to some people.

e.g., Criminy dutch, we was s'posta be over to the Dew Drop Inn two hours ago to play competitive knuckle cracking.

In Texas, we say "sheeee-ut." A fine word with multiple uses ...

 

[Br. David]

Can't imagine John Wayne saying crikey! -
Crikey! wull why didncha say, Pilgrim .... no, doesn't work :lol:

 

[johnnyman]

Can't imagine John Wayne saying crikey! -
Crikey! wull why didncha say, Pilgrim .... no, doesn't work :lol:

John Wayne said, "Sheeee-ut" ....

 

[+@^^]

@ Br. David
the youth today are a lot more economical with words
for the price of the 6 letters in crikey
its now possible to double your surprise
and say OMG WTF
.
Shakespeare wasnt privileged enough to have these words at his disposal
but im sure Julius Caesar might have uttered them had they been in his lexicon
as in....
"OMG Brutus, WTF dude"
.
come to think of it et tu Brute was pretty economical too

 

[Br. David]

Shakespeare wasnt privileged enough to have these words at his disposal
but im sure Julius Caesar might have uttered them had they been in his lexicon
as in....
"OMG Brutus, WTF dude SHEEEUUUUTTTT!" :lol:


2B or not 2B ?

 

[+@^^]

ah yes Br. David
would you consider re-writing the entire works of Shakespeare in youth sms text language
through some nifty online collaboration
we could have this done by noon tomorrow
and in a booklette smaller than the current book of heroic Italian military victories
.
this is sure to become a camino hit
outta our way Kindle

 

[Br. David]

pmsl :wink:

signed Br.D

 

[RENSHAW]

"OMG Brutus, WTF dude SHEEEUUUUTTTT!" :lol:

8) This made my day - ta 8)

 

[WolverineDG]

we could have this done by noon tomorrow
and in a booklette smaller than the current book of heroic Italian military victories
.
this is sure to become a camino hit
outta our way Kindle

LOL!!!

True story: when told that the Italians had joined the Axis in WWII, Churchill noted "Well, we had to have them on OUR side last time."

Kelly

 

[Br. David]

picking up the thread .... that taking of fruit .... the morality, legality, ...

Mother Teresa said that "Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand" :wink:

 

[Caminando]

Can't imagine John Wayne saying crikey! -
Crikey! wull why didncha say, Pilgrim .... no, doesn't work :lol:

John Wayne said, "Sheeee-ut" ....

Otherwise known as 'Big Marion'.

 

[Br. David]

Otherwise known as 'Big Marion'. - Crikey!

 

[Caminando]

Otherwise known as 'Big Marion'. - Crikey!

Yes Davey, Wayne's middle name was Marion, or Marian. He was the redneck who urged others to war, but failed to step up himself.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

John Wayne

Birth Name: Marion Robert Morrison

Wayne did not serve during World War II. The knee injuries he received in College kept him from running the distances required by Military Standards.

(He was 34 when Pearl Harbor was attacked.)

Had a sense of humor:

In 1974, with the Vietnam war still continuing, The Harvard Lampoon invited Wayne to The Harvard Square Theater to award him the "Brass Balls Award" for his "Outstanding machismo and a penchant for punching people". Wayne accepted and arrived riding atop an armored personnel carrier manned by the "Black Knights" of Troop D, Fifth Regiment. Wayne took the stage and ad-libbed his way through a series of derogatory questions with adroitness, displaying an agile wit that completely won over the audience of students.

"Big Marion" seems to be a nickname only in Great Britain.

 

[Anniesantiago]

OMG! I'm ROFLMAO at the twist this thread took! BFG
When I saw it, ILICISCOMS
BION, I didn't plan this.

ANFSCD,
<3s 2 u all!

CMNO!

 

[Br. David]

Yes, John Wayne - also a spy for the FBI for 25 years, attending parties and then reporting on those who he thought had 'communist' sympathies - interesting man - I love his later Westerns for some reason, not sure why.

Stealing fruit - in Saint Augustines' Confessions he spends a long period trying to explain the nature of evil and evil acts. He uses an apparently minor incident in his youth where he and some pals stole apples from an orchard. It isn't the actual scrumping (English term for children nipping into an orchard and stealing fruit) that bothered him but the mind process involved. He comes to the conclusion that he would never have done such an act alone but that the group mind took over and that was where evil lay. From this; to go along with others in acts that one personally knows are wrong is evil in action. You can extrapolate this to a whole nation rising up and doing harm to another nation or a subset within - the Nazis come to mind, as does Rhwanda.

His conclusion is that one must always listen to - and act on - the inner voice that knows right action, regardless of what may be the norms of the society one lives in.

So this taking fruit from private property without permission has a long history. So what is it that can take us, usually aware of the property rights of others, to just reach over and take what isn't ours?
It is wrong - of course it is wrong. It has always been wrong, it will always be wrong. We may attempt to justify the act by moving the markers "it is only one little apple", "no one will miss it", "if I asked he/she would give it to me anyway", "I am so thirsty I need it", but, in the end, it is the same act. It is theft. The true harm is what the act does to our inner life. Were we to suddenly meet the orchard owner we then have to hide the act, to be guilty - unable to look the farmer in the eyes with open heart.
It is a wrong act. Don't you think :wink:

 

[Anniesantiago]

I'm learning to keep some of my thoughts to myself.
My goodness, what a can of worms. :lol:

 

[Deleted member 3000]

For some five million years, man picked food wherever it was found. To do otherwise risked the extinction of the individual. As we banded together to kill and eat the wooly mammoth and mastodon, greater elements of community were added. With agriculture, the "mine" vs. "ours" distinctions were refined and made much more complex. So, while I agree that stealing the farmers' crops is wrong, it is wrong because of covenants between men, not because of its inherent nature. Otherwise we could not have the fairly ludicrous concept that "what falls on the King's land is the King's; what falls on the public highway is everyone's," a distinction that hinges on inches, not deeds, persons, or intentions. Jesus mooted the "mine" with the suggestion of sharing, a major advance in the concept of community and shared fate. Moral demagoguery is incompatible with the principles of pilgrimage, at least at some level. Donativo does mean free in some cases (but not in others).

 

[newfydog]

For some five million years, man picked food wherever it was found..

Actually you've overstated that 24 fold. We've only been around 200,000 to 150,000 years.

Newf, the geologist.

 

[Br. David]

Falcon, a nice construct but we don't know what it was like before events were recorded in the last five thousand years - what we do see from earliest times are societies and property laws similar to ours now. 50,000 years ago humans slowly emerged from Africa, mainly via the coast eastwards. why did they move if not because of population pressure and 'property rights'?

Human society has developed as it has over resource-poverty conflict - essentially the fight over the water hole. Two tribes, one water hole. The water hole only big enough to support one tribe - result - conflict and then possession by one tribe. The other moves on. It all starts there. To go with what you imply about the moral ground is to go back to fighting over the water hole and our laws and rules and ethics and morality is an attempt to stop such conflicts before they begin - not perfect, but the best we have.
but I wasn't talking about society, I was talking about the inner person and what taking secretly does to that inner person - not the same discussion :wink:

Donativo is to do with receiving freely by making a contribution
there is 'freely given' and 'free to take without permission'. One is an offer one is a taking - not the same at all, don't you think? :wink:

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I don't argue against property rights, but, like profits, they are not the only factor in the equation. U.S. railroad companies were given millions of acres of land, much of which actually belonged to American Indians, so was not the government's to give, for building railroads. Public land became private land, but in a far different way than owning your own home or farm.

The reason we don't feel pangs of conscience harvesting from a fig tree in the middle of nowhere is the sense that its distance from population makes it public property. However, I am pretty certain that it was planted by someone, perhaps to provide free fruit. We get the pang of conscience when walking through a town and grabbing an apple from a branch that hangs over the sidewalk. We judge the two quite differently; I am just urging that we judge less harshly. The two are not that far apart.

Ardipithecus and Austalopithecus go back about five million years, and there is convincing evidence that they are part of our family tree. We do know a lot about our ancestors before the last five thousand years. The cave art in the south of France is about 30,000 years old, and tells a lot. Most American Indian groups had very little "private property." If the books of Mormon were correct, you would find the lost tribes of Israel bringing both the wheel and private property to the New World. It didn't happen, and the Indians fell to stunning defeat when the invaders declared that community assets belonged to individuals, not the group. Once the point was reached where someone said the haunch of the beast belonged to him, not the tribe, complex rules of ownership began to evolve. Up to that point, the strongest slew his rival, took his women, and bred them. Pretty simple, those early laws of God!

Again I say, it is wrong for me to steal the farmer's produce. For you? I am willing to leave it up to you and your view of your covenants with your fellow man.

 

[Br. David]

good stuff Falcon, very enjoyable - we do surely all know this already - but it isn't about any of that, it is about the inner, not the outer - if you go inwards you will find that the argument isn't an argument at all, it is quite clear - I don't judge, you know, I merely state my position - all is well.

When folk mention the american Indians, or first nation, they are usually thinking of the Iconic plains tribes, mainly the Oglala Souix. Tragedy indeed - basically another fight over the water hole (buffalo, land, gold - not important)- but we should remember that the romantic and heroic plains indians had taken to horses only 80 or so years before and driven off or killed the other tribes to take over that land - there are no noble Savages, there never have been any Noble Savages - this is an 18th century French invention. Humans are humans, it is in the dna - owls are owls and do not change, humans are humans and do not change. We have always been as we now are. Those indians, holding things in common - or, rather, having a hunting area in common, a tribal land, killed freely and fought to the death against any intruders - they didn't share, their land was their land - their 'property'. They also had personal status property, horses for instance. Try taking a 'free' loose horse on the Dakotah plains in 1832 and see how far you got!
Society isn't something imposed upon free egalitarian humans - a false marxist myth - it is the construct that humans construct - because it is what we are like.
It is what we are like Falcon, it is hard-wired - and therefore so is the awareness of right and wrong, of gifts and theft.
Acting out in the world is more difficult because there are loose boundaries - the fruit on the tree hanging over your garden from next door is your fruit, the fruit in their garden is their fruit. As society members it is our responsibility to know those boundaries, don't you think?

Crikey! this whole thing started with a mythical piece of fruit! :lol:

 

[Deleted member 3000]

...it is hard-wired

Taking the fruit is hard-wired, the Divine Providence of the topic. Everything else is a human construct, the Crop Theft part. I like the "rules." I have never taken a farmer's product, particularly the wine grapes. I walked with a pilgrim who sampled every vineyard. The usual comment was, "It will make great salad dressing." One course in wine tasting, and he knew more than the twentieth-generation vintner as to the results of the harvest, wine or vinegar! From such hubris flows acting on the instinct to take the fruit, as if indulging his ego or thirst for knowledge gave a superior claim to the grapes. The part of the original anecdote that bothered me the most was campers' attitude that their interests were the superior interests. To me, that is borderline sociopathic, and probably quite human.

 

[Caminando]

Humans are humans, it is in the dna - owls are owls and do not change, humans are humans and do not change. We have always been as we now are.

Society isn't something imposed upon free egalitarian humans - a false marxist myth - it is the construct that humans construct - because it is what we are like.

It is what we are like Falcon, it is hard-wired - and therefore so is the awareness of right and wrong, of gifts and theft.

Well Dave, it seems you are a stranger to science and history. Your idea that humans or any other creatures don't evolve is startling to read.

Awareness of right and wrong is hardwired? Really? Have you ever looked at other societies and their varied cultural attitudes ?

Your reference to Marxist comment is difficult to decipher, and a little confused.

But as you say, good stuff!

 

[newfydog]

Ardipithecus and Austalopithecus go back about five million years, .

Take a look at them, they were not humans, they were apes. I would rather we behave more like humans .

If you go back far enough, you can justify acting like slime mold!

 

[Br. David]

oh dear, the base of Marxs' assumptions was that human hierarchy is naturally horizontally structured therefore the vertical hierarchy we all live with was imposed by a few. But if you actually look at humans you will see that hierarchy is always vertically structured - all attempts at the horizontal have failed. Therefore as his basic assumption was wrong all his further theories that depend from it are also incorrect.

Evolution? You confuse species evolution with species adaptation. I was writing about the only history that we know of societies and humans - and that dates from the invention of writing - some 5,000 years. Look back and you will see that we have adapted but we have not evolved. Look further back via mitochondrial DNA markers and you will be able to trace us back some 50,000 years to Africa - human all the way. We carry those markers with us, our ancesters are marked within us, in every dna strand - they are not separate from us, they are integrally us.

Yes, each society does have differing norms - but I am still talking about the inner, the one that connects to 'other' and if you look at all the wisdom teachers who have arisen throughout history they have all, by that connection, been moral, honest, loving, compassionate and unselfish - not one would have stolen anything, regardless of their nurturing culture - so it is the inner I speak of.

Caminando - please do disagree but do try not to be rude, or caustic. :roll: :wink:

Can I go now?

 

[Sojourner47]

Digressing from this philosophical discussion, and returning to the OP, I recall travelling - long ago - through North Africa: Tunisia/Algeria/Morocco, and seeing piles of oranges arranged on walls beside the road - these were left for anyone to help themselves - surplus/gift fruits.On my recent camino Ingles, I noticed the same offerings occasionally.
I have a smallish allotment, on a site of about 35 - we've all had stuff stolen, and likely to increase with the current panic over European mass-produced vegetables. But amongst ourselves, we leave surplus plants and produce beside the water well for anyone to help themselves.
Everyone puts a great deal of effort, and money, into growing their veg etc, as the original Spanish farmer does, and I understand completely his anger and frustration when casual passersby/so-called pilgrims steal his hard earned crops.
My point is, as has already been said - unless one has permission, don't take it.
The current attitude of, "If it's there then just have it" or something similar, is unfortunately, all too prevalent nowadays - I am involved in the English judicial system and see this all the time - it seems almost a mindset in some people to ignore, as John Steinbeck said, " the private ownership of portable property".
To put it crudely, (without attribution)
"If you see 'owt moving, screw it,
If you can't screw it, steal it,
If you can't steal it, set fire to it". :mrgreen:

 

[Br. David]

That's about the sum of it

 

[Br. David]

I have so enjoyed this thread, the cut and thrust, and how it rambled on, marvellous! - travelling to unexpected places - great fun - but I think I shall drop out now. :wink:

 

[Caminando]

oh dear, the base of Marxs' assumptions was that human hierarchy is naturally horizontally structured therefore the vertical hierarchy we all live with was imposed by a few. But if you actually look at humans you will see that hierarchy is always vertically structured - all attempts at the horizontal have failed. Therefore as his basic assumption was wrong all his further theories that depend from it are also incorrect.

Evolution? You confuse species evolution with species adaptation. I was writing about the only history that we know of societies and humans - and that dates from the invention of writing - some 5,000 years. Look back and you will see that we have adapted but we have not evolved. Look further back via mitochondrial DNA markers and you will be able to trace us back some 50,000 years to Africa - human all the way. We carry those markers with us, our ancesters are marked within us, in every dna strand - they are not separate from us, they are integrally us.

Yes, each society does have differing norms - but I am still talking about the inner, the one that connects to 'other' and if you look at all the wisdom teachers who have arisen throughout history they have all, by that connection, been moral, honest, loving, compassionate and unselfish - not one would have stolen anything, regardless of their nurturing culture - so it is the inner I speak of.

Caminando - please do disagree but do try not to be rude, or caustic. :roll: :wink:

Can I go now?

I dont agree that I'm rude, though you are, nor do I indulge in emotional incontinence and I don't get upset if others have different ideas. I welcome it.
The 'universal' values which you assert don't exist, I'm afraid. The 'inner' and 'the other' are undefined, vague gossip.
You can go at any time - you're free!

 

[William Marques]

Please can we get this thread back on track!

If people want a philosophical discussion on property rights please continue it elsewhere or by PM.

 

[Sojourner47]

An unpleasant experience with three pilgrims and the Guardia Civil and a farmer.

The men said they are members of a "green community," and were going to Santiago with no money or food. They were "living off the Earth´s abundance," they said, "letting the land and camino provide." They usually stay in building sites and "free" albergues, but someone gave them tents so they pitch them up alongside fields and forage for what food the can at restaurant kitchen doors and trash bins, when other pilgrims or panhandling do not yield sufficient.They seem like fine guys -- just a bit unkempt.

I will enlarge on my previous post, because this does really irritate me.
Yes, as a child, I did scrump fruit from the orchards, and , if caught, was lucky to get off with a good dressing down from the farmer, and another from my parents. BUT, I knew I was doing wrong.
My worry is, nowadays so many malfeasors fail to accept, or even recognise, the element of mal in their feasoring. It's all very well to assert that, "the camino will provide", and expect others to donate food and shelter, but the vast majority of pilgrims have to work and save a considerable sum in order to do the walk - I'll bet my last farthing that none of these characters has done a hand's turn in their lives, or contributed anything to society.
They do not "seem like fine guys" to me, I'm afraid.
Of course, there have always been rogues, thieves and vagabonds on the camino, and everywhere else - and with increasing numbers doing the walks there will inevitably be more miscreants.
There is still no justification for modern day mendicants to assume that the rest of the world owes them a living....There are beggars on the steps of Santiago cathedral, and in my own small home town, and obviously, if anyone wishes to gives alms, that is entirely up to them. What bugs me is the EXPECTATION that society owes these useless *********s a living.
Rant over.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I'll bet my last farthing that none of these characters have [sic] done a hand's turn in their lives, or contributed anything to society

Way harsh (unless you actually know them)!

 

[Sojourner47]

I'll bet my last farthing that none of these characters have [sic] done a hand's turn in their lives, or contributed anything to society

Way harsh (unless you actually know them)!

Oops, grammar let me down - now edited....

 

[Anniesantiago]

There is still no justification for modern day mendicants to assume that the rest of the world owes them a living....There are beggars on the steps of Santiago cathedral, and in my own small home town, and obviously, if anyone wishes to gives alms, that is entirely up to them. What bugs me is the EXPECTATION that society owes these useless *********s a living.

Well, here I have to disagree with you a bit. Yes, some people do seem to believe that society owes them a living. On the other hand, many of the beggars are in dire straits; they are either jobless/homeless, or mentally ill. The giving of alms is certainly up to the giver - if it's not in your heart to give, then don't.

But my grandmother taught me a lesson I will never forget. She lived next to the railroad tracks and there were often knocks on our door with dirty, scraggly men asking for a handout. She never gave money, but she would invite them to sit at a table in the yard. She would then go inside and cook a large breakfast of bacon, eggs, biscuits, gravy, and coffee. She would serve it to them on a tray with a napkin and wait on them as though they were kings. She would always call them "sir" and treat them with great respect.

Once I asked her why she did this? She told me that during the Great Depression, her family farm went under and the entire family had to travel, by mule and wagon, to the West to find work. They lived in camps and were migrant workers, picking fruit and chopping cotton. She told me of many nights they went to bed hungry and other times the parents stopped the children's crying by feeding them plain bread with sugar sprinkled on it. She told me that over time, their clothing and shoes wore out and they had no choice but to try to repair the patches. She told me of her father patching her shoes with old cut up tires. She said they looked "a fright" and that often, well-heeled people would turn up their nose.

She told me, "Never judge another person until you've walked in their shoes! I've walked in the shoes of those tramps, and their problems are their business, but feeding them and doing my best to give them comfort, even for one day, is MY business. The Lord is my boss, and he told me to do it. Don't forget it."

I haven't forgotten it. I was abruptly reminded when a beloved cousin of mine, who was a lovely child from a troubled home, took to the streets, mentally ill with no place to lay his head. He was found dead in an alley of an influential neighborhood on the California coast - a victim of hypothermia. Each time I see a homeless person, I think of Buddy, that sweet little boy who had a mother, a father, and grandparents and cousins who loved him.

Nobody knows why people are on the street.

I'm close to being there myself, with MCS, no income, living in a detached garage for the summer. The only way I get to walk in Spain for my health is through the kindness of friends. After this summer, I imagine I'll be living in my car... I have Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, and it is not yet readily accepted as a disability so I'm having to fight with an attorney to collect Disability money that I've paid into my entire adult life.

So... I try not to judge. Although I'm sure there are a few people who take advantage of society, there are also many who need help. And the best judge of a society is the way it treats its homeless and its mentally ill, in my opinion. In some ways I believe we create our own reality, and that if those folks wanted to be off the streets, they could be. On the other hand, some truly do not have a choice, and need a helping hand. Our society has become one of greed and "ME-ME-ME-ness" and to me, that is a sad thing.

I'm sorry to make this so long, but I have one other story to tell. This is a Mormon story.

There was a young attorney, well-heeled, and jobbed. Each morning as he walked to work, he was irritated by a dirty drunk lying in the gutter in front of his office. Each morning as he stepped over the drunk, he cursed him, his dirtiness, his drunkness, his annoying habit of being in the way.

One night, he had a dream. In the dream, he and the drunk were sitting in a beautiful meadow, talking. The drunk was no longer a drunk. He was clean, shaven, and his eyes were shining. He and the drunk were best friends! They were discussing their next incarnation, trying to figure out where they would go and what they needed to learn.

The attorney said, "I really need to learn compassion!"
The friend said, "I know! Let's go to America! You can be a rich attorney, and I'll be a drunk in the gutter!"

The attorney woke up, got dressed, walked to where the drunk was sleeping and roused him. He took him home, gave him a shower and clean clothes, and fed him breakfast. Later, he helped him find housing and a job.

I love that story, and each time I see a drunk in the gutter, my heart goes out to him... he may be my best friend!

 

[jpflavin1]

This is sure an interesting thread.

In regards to the initial comment by Rebekah, I believe we should always refer to the Golden rule in every action we take.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" If we utilized this thought before taking actions, the world would be a more congenial place.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[Sojourner47]

Thanks, Annie, for that very thought provoking post, and for your's jp.
I entirely agree with you regarding those unfortunate to find themselves, often through no fault of their own, in dire straits.
And, Falcon, I accept that my comment about, "those characters never having done a hands turn" was somewhat hasty. I do not indeed know them, or their particular circumstances.
However, in the extramural/voluntary part of my life, I do come into contact with a lot of, to put it bluntly, pretty unsavoury, idle, good-for-nothings, who are far removed from those genuinely fallen on hard times.And I also meet the victims of some of these miscreants.
Some of whom are also struggling to sustain a living.
Of course there are some sad souls afflicted with myriad problems, mental and physical, or both, who cannot live without outside help, often outside charitable help, in these days of government cutbacks.
Including many in my own neck of the woods.
But, from the original post, it does not appear that the people described belonged to that group.
If the circumstances were as stated, this trio voluntarily decided to walk the camino, relying,by their own admission, on the generosity of others to provide for their needs.By all accounts, they abused this generosity, so they certainly cannot be compared with those unfortunates previously mentioned.

 

[+@^^]

regarding disappearing crops...
i consider a long-term sustainable model more efficient
so
i spat the pips of stolen produce onto a fertile spot of the same farmers land
and in years, this will provide waay more fruit than the small amount i nicked
.
i will not expect the farmer to be grateful for my agricultural largess

 

[NaKwendaSafari]

Caminondo wrote to Br David:

You can go at any time - you're free!

Yes, please look at the mirror when you say that

 

[Caminando]

Caminondo wrote to Br David:

You can go at any time - you're free!

Yes, please look at the mirror when you say that

Why dont you?

 

[ivar]

Hi all,

I will close this thread... way off topic and starting to become a bit nasty.

I wish all a great weekend!!!

Greetings from sunny Santiago,
Ivar