Terrymally
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2019
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@Terrymally, I liked Heather's post but I still don't think that permethrin treated clothes or sleeping bags are really worth it for the Camino. I did treat our sleeping bags for our first Camino but I've looked up some scholarly papers since. I also don't see any harm (others are more cautious about this). If you do want to treat your clothes search YouTube for permethrin clothes soaking. You will find videos on how to get relatively cheap concentrated permethrin, dilute it, soak your clothes and dry them. This will be more useful for you at home with ticks and mosquitoes but could make you feel better if you do it before Spain.This came up yesterday in a different thread. Here is one option: https://www.insectshield.com/
They sell pre-treated items and they also have a service for people to send in their own items and they’ll treat them. I have only used a Buff (neck wrap) from them so far, but will be using sleeping bag liners this year.
Are there actually studies to prove this? I realize that bedbugs are not listed on the labels among the insects vulnerable to these repellants. But is it because they don't work, or because they haven't been studied and therefore that claim cannot be made in advertisements? [I don't know the answer to my question, but have long wondered.]DEET, picaridin, IR3535and permethrinare... not effective against bedbugs
@C clearly I am absolutely confident that if the manufacturers could point to even one, even dubious, study that suggested that their product was efficacious against bed-bugs then that would appear in 10 foot high headlines on every iteration of their productAre there actually studies to prove this? I realize that bedbugs are not listed on the labels among the insects vulnerable to these repellants. But is it because they don't work, or because they haven't been studied and therefore that claim cannot be made in advertisements?
Yes. I'm too busy to pick out a few now but Google can search scholarly articles by going to scholar.google.com and picking good search terms. Use cimex instead of bedbug.Are there actually studies to prove this?
Yes. I'm too busy to pick out a few now but Google can search scholarly articles by going to scholar.google.com and picking good search terms. Use cimex instead of bedbug.
@trecile has multiple times posted this video.
Sorry I meant to delete "permethrin" from my quote. I am asking about whether the other insect repellants - DEET, picaridin, IR3535 - are shown to be ineffective against bedbugs.DEET, picaridin, IR3535and permethrinare... not effective against bedbugs
Then my question remains. Has anyone seen that one study?@C clearly I am absolutely confident that if the manufacturers could point to even one, even dubious, study that suggested that their product was efficacious against bed-bugs then that would appear in 10 foot high headlines on every iteration of their product
I'm not prepared to spend time sifting through my files and dig up all of the pertinent reports and studiesThen my question remains. Has anyone seen that one study?
I found research that challenges both these assertions, and shared that in a post some time ago. The first is that permethrin is less effective against resistant species in the short term, but in the long term appears to achieve similar mortality rates against all species. The second is that bed bugs that are exposed to permethrin treated fabric either do not, or are significantly less likely, to continue their search for a blood meal.As a pyrethroid, Permethrin can kill non-resistant bedbugs. However, if you are spraying sheets or sleeping bags thinking it will keep non-resistant bedbugs at bay, the bedbug generally will survive their exposure to Permethrin long enough to find you, bite you and feed on you.
Out of curiosity, I still have this unanswered question: Do you know whether there is evidence that the commonly-used repellents (e.g. DEET, Picardin) are effective or not effective in repelling bed bugs?Two of the most effective and commonly used repellent chemicals are DEET (N,N-diethyl-meta-toluamide), and Picaridin (1-piperidinecarboxylic acid 2-(2-hydroxyethyl)-1-methylpropylester). In repellant preparations, the higher the concentration, the more effective the repellant is.
Sorry, but while @davebugg is good, he is not perfect.Whatever Dave Bugg says, goes.
I think this is one of those 'exception demonstrates the rule' moments.Also: anyone sceptical about nominative determinism is wrong.
1. Yes, but he’s got a head-start on most of us.Sorry, but while @davebugg is good, he is not perfect.
I think this is one of those 'exception demonstrates the rule' moments.
I found research that challenges both these assertions, and shared that in a post some time ago. The first is that permethrin is less effective against resistant species in the short term, but in the long term appears to achieve similar mortality rates against all species. The second is that bed bugs that are exposed to permethrin treated fabric either do not, or are significantly less likely, to continue their search for a blood meal.
Both these indicate to me that it is worthwhile treating one's sleeping bag, liner, or even just a sleep sheet, with permethrin and using those consistently. Personally, I treat a silk liner and use it consistently. Note, though, that the silk does nothing to repel bed bugs. I choose silk because it feels comfortable, not because it provides any defence against bed bugs or other crawling insects.
Brand: NASA Type: Astronaut suit REALLY, I have done 11 Caminos, seen 3 bed bugs, but never have been bitten by bug or fly. Got stung on the ear by a bee cycling through Palais de Rei in 2016, although it's not applicable to your question as it was not a bite.Title says it all. Exact clothing brands and type: socks/parts/shirts/hat etc to prevent all type bug bites / (Sleeping, walking etc)
Thanks (I know can use Deet spray or make a natural.... but would like to know the recommendation above for now).... to minimize bite as they still seem to get through example some socks, as well as neck and above) TY
This came up yesterday in a different thread. Here is one option: https://www.insectshield.com/
They sell pre-treated items and they also have a service for people to send in their own items and they’ll treat them. I have only used a Buff (neck wrap) from them so far, but will be using sleeping bag liners this year.
Do you know whether there is evidence that the commonly-used repellents (e.g. DEET, Picardin) are effective or not effective in repelling bed bugs?
Thanks for that link. It does answer my fundamental question.Apparently, DEET (but not picaridins) are fairly effective at repelling bedbugs.
Repellency of selected chemicals against the bed bug (Hemiptera: Cimicidae) - PubMed
In recent years, the common bed bug, Cimex lectularius L. (Hemiptera: Cimicidae), became a major public health concern in urban communities. Bed bugs are notoriously difficult to control, and their bites are not tolerated by most people. The public has an urgent need for materials and methods to...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Apparently, DEET (but not picaridins) are fairly effective at repelling bedbugs. Above is a link to the abstract of one of a number of articles (with links to others) that have come to a similar conclusion. However, here is the bad news:
Here is another link to the European code of practice, derived from the Australian code of practice
- DEET reacts with and can dissolve some synthetic materials (not a biggie if you only use natural fabrics)
- You would have to apply it to every square inch or millimetre of your body, because the little critters get in everywhere
- It doesn´t last very long, therefore you would have to apply it every night, all over your body
Interestingly, it recommends washing of infested items, but at +55ºC, and then hot drying.
Enjoy
Thank you. I have amended my original post so that it is more accurate and useful to forum members.Dick, if you look at the various studies, they examined repellency for Picaridin at concentration levels below those recommended for real world use at a 7%. (in some studies they refer to Picaridin as Icaridin). The recommended concentration is at least 20%.
It wears off overnight too and bedbugs are more active late at night when the DEET has worn off.[DEET] doesn´t last very long, therefore you would have to apply it every night, all over your body
I'm not sure what you are really asking here. Permethrin is an insecticide, not an insect repellant. The matter that I was interested in is the oft-repeated claim that because treated bed bugs don't die quickly, they have the opportunity to go on to feed. I know that I would have suggested this might be so, until I found some research that indicates that this is not always so. The two sources that I found are:Just to be clear, you are describing effects of permethrin as a neurotoxic substance - an insecticide - not in a role as a true and specific repellant?,, or was your intent to also ascribe repellency?
I'm not sure what you are really asking here. Permethrin is an insecticide, not an insect repellant. The matter that I was interested in is the oft-repeated claim that because treated bed bugs don't die quickly, they have the opportunity to go on to feed. I know that I would have suggested this might be so, until I found some research that indicates that this is not always so. The two sources that I found are:
Susan C. Jones, Joshua L. Bryant, Frances S. Sivakoff, Sublethal Effects of ActiveGuard Exposure on Feeding Behavior and Fecundity of the Bed Bug (Hemiptera: Cimicidae), Journal of Medical Entomology, Volume 52, Issue 3, May 2015, Pages 413–418, https://doi.org/10.1093/jme/tjv008
Jones SC, Bryant JL, Harrison SA. Behavioral Responses of the Bed Bug to Permethrin-Impregnated ActiveGuard™ Fabric. Insects. 2013 Jun 7;4(2):230-40. doi: 10.3390/insects4020230. PMID: 26464388; PMCID: PMC4553521.
My comments on these can be found here.
I agree that the studies appear to have been with bed bugs crawling directly on the treated fabric used at the time. Permethrin is a contact insecticide, and anyone wanting that protection would want them to come into as much contact with treated fabric as possible before reaching some point where they can feed. It seems to me that as pilgrims, we shouldn't rely solely on mattress encasements, but also consider treating our own bedding with permethrin.My concern is that while the exposure of the bedbug was directly to the mattress liner material, I did not read anything about whether testing was also done with a covering on top of the liner. Certainly bedbugs can reach individuals if a top cover is used, like a sleeping bag, or by crawling across a pillow or top covering like a blanket or sleeping quilt/bag.
I didn't see that as a particular focus, but given the context, looking at how this treatment might interrupt the breeding cycle of any target species, and assisting to eradicate a bed bug infestation seems entirely reasonable. That applies on the camino just as much as it would in static circumstances like an albergue, hostel or hotel.Too, it seemed the authors were focused on the reduced ability of a female bedbug to lay eggs after exposure to ActiveGuard. That leads me to think those who are spraying/treating the inside of a backpack and a dirty-clothes stuff sack with a Permethrin treatment like Sawyers, is helping control the active introduction of bedbugs from one lodging site to another, and back to one's house at the end of the Camino.
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