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I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.
And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.
Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
Like everything we suppress. Inside too.The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
Ditto, @Gigipro ! But unfortunately that never seems to happen. Once a few generations go by...poof. We forget - and whatever it is is off the human radar screen.I only wish the world would heed this history.
It seems to be making the rounds of film festivals.Not yet on YouTube or Netflix though.
What's a few? (Rhetorical question.) My paternal grandfather's grandfathers fought in the American Civil War and now I see young men that could be my grandsons fighting and even killing over Civil War monuments.Once a few generations go by...poof. We forget - and whatever it is is off the human radar screen.
Very moving ....I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.
And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.
Amen, Stephen. Amen.Regardless of motive, regardless of which "side" they were on, regardless of nationality, may they all now Rest in Peace.
Actually that's a good question, Rick.What's a few?
It was on television last week .Look up Guernika....
I remember where it is. When you come to the plaza (on Camino) it's placed on the left corner house about three meters high facing the plaza.The CF in Carrion de Condes passes by the Plaza de Generalismo Franco. I looked but didn't see his name anywhere in the plaza.
There are also many memorials along the beautiful Ruta del Ebro, remembering all those who died in the disastrous Battle of the Ebro. Regardless of motive, regardless of which "side" they were on, regardless of nationality, may they all now Rest in Peace.
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I remember where it is. When you come to the plaza (on Camino) it's placed on the left corner house about three meters high facing the plaza.
It is a little farther along the CF (west) than the plaza along side Santa Maria.On Google maps the Plaza Major in Carrion de los Condes is also referred to as Plaza Generalisimo
Carrión eliminará las calles franquistas para cumplir con la Memoria HistóricaThe CF in Carrion de Condes passes by the Plaza de Generalismo Franco. I looked but didn't see his name anywhere in the plaza.
It's the main plaza further along the Camino through Carrion (as @Rick of Rick and Peg described) and is down on the left side of the street you are walking.Is this the main plaza in Carrion? Next to the Santa Maria Church and albergue (with singing nuns)?
I can remember seeing the sign somewhere...but can't remember what camino or where it was.
In June 2016 it was still there but I wouldn't know after that.Carrión eliminará las calles franquistas para cumplir con la Memoria Histórica
The article dates from April 2016, and it's not quite clear to me with my limited Spanish whether the changes have actually been made official in the meantime.
The name of the plaza has apparently been changed to Plaza Mayor, at least that's the address that the Bar Carmen gives on their Facebook page: Plaza Mayor 08. Google still has Plaza Generalísimo, 0. Luckily, their telephone number didn't change ... Same for the address of the town hall which is now Plaza Mayor, 1 but you can still find plenty of websites that have Plaza General Franco as their address.The article dates from April 2016, and it's not quite clear to me with my limited Spanish whether the changes have actually been made official in the meantime.
Very interesting thread, VN, people have raised a lot of fascinating related historical issues. There are lots of lessons waiting for us on the Camino if we know what to look for! I have learned how important place names are to a town's residents. I was vaguely aware of this Ley de la Memoria that others have referenced, but it wasn't till I walked through San Leonardo de Yagüe on the Castellano-Aragonés that I could really feel it. This town got the added "de Yagüe" during the Franco era (Yagüe was known as the Butcher of Badajoz, relating to his role in the Civil War). He was also from this small town, and after the war, made sure that it got its first theater, its first connection to the electricity grid, its first medical center, its first library, etc etc. The law has required removal of the Yagüe but it hadn't yet happened (though my sello from the ayuntamiento said only San Leonardo). New road signs, entrance signs, etc, all said San Leonardo de Yagüe. Not surprisingly, I found three groups of people on my afternoon swing through the bars with one of @LTfit 's friends. There was a group of mainly elderly people who very fiercely wanted to keep the name in memory of this man who had done so much for this town; there was a group who very fiercely wanted to remove the name in memory of his victims and in compliance with the law; and then there were those for whom this just produced a shrug and who were more interested in going to see the performance of traditional jota dances in the theater without caring whether it was named "de Yagüe." I believe there is a nonprofit group that will bankroll the legal costs of any town willing to defy the law and keep their names, which just shows you how very high emotions run on this topic.
Yes...It's pretty scary what human beings have done (and will continue to do) to each other.This is frightening to me
This is heavy topic, but this part of your post made me smile, Laurie. I can so see it.there were those for whom this just produced a shrug and who were more interested in going to see the performance of traditional jota dances in the theater without caring whether it was named "de Yagüe."
Hi, Gigipro,This is frightening to me.
There is a list of film festival screenings here:If anyone on the forum learns about venues showing this film, PLEASE let us know
Hearts and minds are the main point here - and trust.it is more about hearts and minds and how to make sense of so many years of fascism in a country we now look to as an example of modern democracy.
For another pilgrims take on a Camino with a fair bit of history, both ancient and more modern, read or listen to Tony Kevin's "Walking the Camino, a modern pilgrimage" . It is his account of walking the VdLP with a great deal of background material on Spain and the Camino from a retired Australian diplomat's perspective. The points he makes seem to me to be both poignant and respectful.Between Villafranca Montes de Oca and San Juan de Ortega on the CF there is a memorial to several hundred locals who were executed by the Nationalists at the outbreak of the Civil War in 1936. It is one of many which have appeared across Spain in the last decade. For a full account of Franco's "cleansing" of Spain, read The Spanish Holocaust by Professor Paul Preston.
The war continues to cast a long, if often unspoken about, shadow.
When my wife met me for 2 days in León we stayed in the Parador. Only on the 2nd day did we discover that it had been a prison in the civil war and over 800 people had been executed by Franco’s secret police in this beautiful building. Such a dreadful time and still not really discussed openly in Spain.I recently saw an article about this documentary about the silence around the Civil War, and know many people here will be interested to see it. Make sure you have some tissues handy if you watch the trailer, because it's very touching.
And if you reply to this post, please understand that even though it was over 80 years ago, the Civil War remains an extremely sensitive subject in Spain, as well as here on the Forum. It is as it is, and we cannot change that. So any ‘political’ posts whatsoever will cause the tread to be either locked or deleted altogether. For this reason, I kindly ask that you think twice or maybe three times before you hit ‘post,’ keeping the discussion cordial and ‘within bounds.’ But I do hope we can all begin to bring some light into what has been a very dark area by discussing the documentary openly and cordially.
All around the main square of Salamanca there are "cameos" of characters from Spanish history, including Philip II, Ferdinand and Isabella, Juan Carlos and Sophia and even the Duke of Wellington. My guidebook said that Franco was there, covered in glass to prevent graffiti. I looked for this but couldn't find it.
Thank you for posting this link. Because - at least in my understanding - the movie and many comments in this thread are not about a civil war that is in the past and its two sides but about something else altogether and about contemporary Spain. I think it's explained quite well in this link.
http://memoriahistorica.org.es/who-are-we/
For more information associated to this thread, see the attached site. I add this URL only as a means of increasing understanding. There is no area of Spain that is not affected by the Civil War and its aftermath, even today, so it behoves us as pilgrims to be sensitive, respectful and aware.
Thank you, @Kanga.We are trying to keep this thread open for purposes of information. Please do not express support for one side or the other of the conflict, or enter into an exchange of details about who did what to whom.
This too: Barcelona has a small plaza named in honor of George Orwell, the author of 1984, for his short period of service to the Republican army. A tour guide told us this was the spot for the city's first closed circuit surveillance TV camera.I always thought it was Winston Churchill who said “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” but no. The link corrected me. It was a Spaniard - George Santanaya.
This is insanely ironic.
Truth really IS stranger than fiction.Barcelona has a small plaza named in honor of George Orwell, the author of 1984, for his short period of service to the Republican army. A tour guide told us this was the spot for the city's first closed circuit surveillance TV camera.
Yes, of course. But the one I chose is uncontroversial - which is necessary for a thread to survive.I think that the right name for this thread should be "If you are interested in the Spanish Civil War check out this".
Erik, I can't get access to anything but the abstract. How dd you manage- is there a secret?
Will research and post later when back at my PC.Yes, I tried that, but got the same abstract and a message that I needed to log in to get access, and it's not free.
The Freedom Trail is a route I know a number of my pilgrim friends have walked.
This was the cameo of the Duke of Wellington (2015) It was located in the corner near the Oficina de Tourisma diagonally across the plaza from Franco:When I met @Charrito in the Plaza Mayor in Salamanca, he showed me the now empty medallion where it used to be. The authorities took it down after giving up on trying to keep it safe from vandalism. It was in a corner, right near a passageway out to the street. Facing the ayuntamiento, it was near the passageway to the right.
The photo of the empty medallion in this thread is not Wellington's medallion. It's the medallion of one Manuel Godoy and it was removed in 1808 by pickax. See for example http://www.salamanca.com/dos-medallones-picados-en-la-plaza-mayor-de-salamanca/ .The removal of Franco's medallion in June 2017 was a more civilised affair, as numerous news articles testify. It's still intact and kept somewhere and they apparently haven't decided yet what to do with it. There are a few empty medaillons and apparently there are plans to fill two of them soon. I was a bit surprised to read that Wellington's medallion was created as late as 1977 ...When? He was missing at the end of May. Did they relocate him?
Wonderful link, thank you William!The Freedom Trail is a route I know a number of my pilgrim friends have walked
The photo of the empty medallion in this thread is not Wellington's medallion. It's the medallion of one Manuel Godoy and it was removed in 1808 by pickax. See for example http://www.salamanca.com/dos-medallones-picados-en-la-plaza-mayor-de-salamanca/ .The removal of Franco's medallion in June 2017 was a more civilised affair, as numerous news articles testify. It's still intact and kept somewhere and they apparently haven't decided yet what to do with it. There are a few empty medaillons and apparently there are plans to fill two of them soon. I was a bit surprised to read that Wellington's medallion was created as late as 1977 ...
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PS: Just noticed this sentence in the article quoted above: En la actualidad, de los 88 medallones que están distribuidos en los cuatro pabellones de la Plaza Mayor, 66 están ya labrados. So only 66 of the 88 medallions contain a carved portrait?
See my blog for 8 April! I didn't notice the astronaut, though.
Yes, absolutely. I researched it carefully. The image is a Google Streetview screenshot, it's not very clear and distorted, but it's the only way I could find to show all the relevant medallions in a row. Among other things, I made use of this overview Programa_iconográfico_de_la_plaza_Mayor_de_Salamanca .when I zoom in, the profile you have circled as Wellington doesn't really resemble the figure I photographed. Are you sure that's him?
@Gillean, you are a poster after my heartDid my own check on Google Street View
Forum members may not know that the CSJ London are based in the Christchurch (Southwark). When I went to the November Hospitalero workshop in 2001 the next room to the workshop was being used for a reunion of veterans of the International Brigade and I was very fortunate to meet Jack Jones (IB and Trade Union leader - it's a VERY left wing/socially aware church!) - the singing of their old songs by veterens, widows and children was very moving. They're all dead now but the memory lingers on: Memorial Trust
From The Guardian today, 19/06/2018,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ns-and-turn-site-into-place-of-reconciliation
The International Brigade Memorial trust continues this tradition - it meets at the South Bank memorial (close to the London Eye) on the first Saturday of July to sing, listen to speeches, read poetry, lay flowers and then retire to the pub. Sadly no brigaders have been able to attend for several years. (The only surviving British one that is known about, Geoffrey Servante, is 98.)Thank you for this @Jeff Crawley. When I lived in London I recall that a (diminishing) group of International Brigaders would meet every year on the South Bank.
Look up Guernika....
Yes - that is why I always need to read slowly when reading about the Spanish Civil War. I need to constantly remind myself about who is who, as the names are not necessarily intuitive. It is very difficult to classify good guys and bad guys with consistency.Just wanted to point out that the “nationalists” in the Spanish Civil War are those who mounted an armed uprising against the democratically elected Republic.
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