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Latin forms of James

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Jim B

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Frances 2013, Primitivo '14 & '15, Inglese '17, Finisterre '17, Portuguese '17 &18
My name is James, so I expected Iacobus or Iacobum on my Compostela - but the Pilgrim's Office translated my name to Ignatium. I only noticed when I got home. Occasionally, I think that next time I'm in Santiago I'll call in and see if I can get that changed, but maybe there's something that I'm not understanding? I figure that the one name that would be easily translatable would be James! So, before I do so, can anyone tell me if Ignatium is an obscure translation of James that I cannot fathom? Thanks!
 
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Faye Walker

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Hmmm, yes, I would check that out…. Iacobus would be the appropriate Latin, and not obscure…. They really do have trouble figuring out my full 5-barreled Celtic name so they do what they can… but “James” has no relationship that I know of to Ignatiu/Ignacio et…
 

SabineP

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some and then more. see my signature.
Hmmm, yes, I would check that out…. Iacobus would be the appropriate Latin, and not obscure…. They really do have trouble figuring out my full 5-barreled Celtic name so they do what they can… but “James” has no relationship that I know of to Ignatiu/Ignacio et…

I remember that on my first Compostela the Oficina people did not even bother and my name was written" Sabine ". Another occasion it was " Sabinam " whereas it it much simpler than that and just " Sabina ".
After all, my name can't be more Latin than it is... :)
 

SabineP

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some and then more. see my signature.
My name is James, so I expected Iacobus or Iacobum on my Compostela - but the Pilgrim's Office translated my name to Ignatium. I only noticed when I got home. Occasionally, I think that next time I'm in Santiago I'll call in and see if I can get that changed, but maybe there's something that I'm not understanding? I figure that the one name that would be easily translatable would be James! So, before I do so, can anyone tell me if Ignatium is an obscure translation of James that I cannot fathom? Thanks!
Sorry @Jim B for hijacking your thread. Strange indeed seeing James and Ignatius are such different names. A tired clerk at the desk that day?
 
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Kathar1na

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My name is James, so I expected Iacobus or Iacobum on my Compostela - but the Pilgrim's Office translated my name to Ignatium.
As others have said, it is a mistake. Ask them to have it corrected.

It is not obvious to see that the English name James, the Spanish name Santiago and the Latin name Iacobus are all derived from the Hebrew name Jacob (יעקב) but that is what etymology tells us. Ignatius is totally unrelated to these names.

Non-native speakers of English often don't know that the saint that they know as Santiago, Saint Jacques, San Giacomo or Jakob/Jakobus is called Saint James in English. Which may help to explain this glaring error.
 
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Kathar1na

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Past OR future Camino
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on my first Compostela the Oficina people did not even bother and my name was written "Sabine". Another occasion it was "Sabinam" whereas it it much simpler than that and just "Sabina". After all, my name can't be more Latin than it is... :)
One of my pet peeves, and this is despite the fact that I loved Latin at school and still love it today although I barely remember a word of what we were taught. Latin grammar is the reason why names ending in -a like Claudia or ending in -us like Iacobus appear as Claudiam and Iacobum on the Compostela.

I wish they wouldn't do this or at least change the text so that these names appear grammatically correct in the form that is familiar to those who don't know Latin and Latin grammar. It would be easy to do and it's not as if the text on the Compostela had once been written in stone and cannot be modified. They've modified it plenty of times.

Besides, we don't translate English personal names into German, Spanish, French, Italian or whatever when we write or talk about a person. So why do it for Latin in the year 2021? Especially since they pick the Latin version of a name only for some names when it's easy to do and not for every name when it gets harder and would require more work. It would earn my admiration for their system if they put more effort into this. :cool:

Also, they do not convert the surnames into Latin, only first names. And that is not what they did in the Middle Ages where it was once fashionable to convert one's whole name into Latin and not this piecemeal approach of a 50% translation only. Martin Luther for example became Martinus Lutherus in Latin. 😎
 
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I have always wondered why they do this Latin thing at all, since not even the mass is said in Latin (much) anymore. It seems a little pretentious.
Anyway not all names are able to be Latinized. Both my passport name and my used name are totally untranslatable - one is Hawaiian, the other is Pali. Good luck with that. 🙃
 

Kathar1na

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Jim B

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Sorry @Jim B for hijacking your thread. Strange indeed seeing James and Ignatius are such different names. A tired clerk at the desk that day?

Maybe looking up James on an alphabetical list, the clerk's eyes strayed to the line above, which might have been the last of the names beginning with 'I'.
Yes, that's certainly a possibility.
 

Jim B

New Member
Past OR future Camino
Frances 2013, Primitivo '14 & '15, Inglese '17, Finisterre '17, Portuguese '17 &18
As others have said, it is a mistake. Ask them to have it corrected.

It is not obvious to see that the English name James, the Spanish name Santiago and the Latin name Iacobus are all derived from the Hebrew name Jacob (יעקב) but that is what etymology tells us. Ignatius is totally unrelated to these names.

Non-native speakers of English often don't know that the saint that they know as Santiago, Saint Jacques, San Giacomo or Jakob/Jakobus is called Saint James in English. Which may help to explain this glaring error.
I was fairly certain that it was, just checking that there wasn't a Latin loophole of which I was unaware. You make a good point that she may not have associated James with Santiago, I hadn't thought of that.
 

Jim B

New Member
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Frances 2013, Primitivo '14 & '15, Inglese '17, Finisterre '17, Portuguese '17 &18
Hmmm, yes, I would check that out…. Iacobus would be the appropriate Latin, and not obscure…. They really do have trouble figuring out my full 5-barreled Celtic name so they do what they can… but “James” has no relationship that I know of to Ignatiu/Ignacio et…
On the plus side, it gives me an excuse to wander back to Santiago to have it changed.
 
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Anthony Rocco

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My name is James, so I expected Iacobus or Iacobum on my Compostela - but the Pilgrim's Office translated my name to Ignatium. I only noticed when I got home. Occasionally, I think that next time I'm in Santiago I'll call in and see if I can get that changed, but maybe there's something that I'm not understanding? I figure that the one name that would be easily translatable would be James! So, before I do so, can anyone tell me if Ignatium is an obscure translation of James that I cannot fathom? Thanks!
My name is James. I have a number of compostelas and they all have Iacobus on them. I also walked the Camino Ignaciano and that certificate also put my name as Iacobus. Ditto for Salvador.
 

LesR

Active Member
Past OR future Camino
Camino Frances 2017, 2018; Camino Portuguese 2019
Well, Santiago/Saint James is Sant Iago.
San Diego also means St James.
Doing some touristy things around Faro after CP2019, our driver's name was Tiago - he was quite excited when we told him we had been to Santiago. San Tiago translating to Saint James, so Taigo was essentially James when translated into English.

Tiago, Iago..... interesting...
 

Smallest_Sparrow

Life is rarely what you expect or believe it to be
Past OR future Camino
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Latin grammar is the reason why names ending in -a like Claudia or ending in -us like Iacobus appear as Claudiam and Iacobum on the Compostela.
That would be putting the name in the accusative case rather than nominative. I have no idea where mine is to look at the wording as to why we are the object of the sentence not the subject. Not that anyone really cares except Latin geeks…
 

Faye Walker

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CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
That would be putting the name in the accusative case rather than nominative. I have no idea where mine is to look at the wording as to why we are the object of the sentence not the subject. Not that anyone really cares except Latin geeks…
Good question/observation.
I went to look at mine, and it’s quite clearly the case that so-and-so made the journey, and not that the journey conferred upon so-and-so. It’s a clear, active voice.
“Hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. In quorum fidem praesentes litteras, sigillo ejusdem Sanctae Ecclesiae munitas, ei confero.”
 

Smallest_Sparrow

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Good question/observation.
I went to look at mine, and it’s quite clearly the case that so-and-so made the journey, and not that the journey conferred upon so-and-so. It’s a clear, active voice.
“Hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. In quorum fidem praesentes litteras, sigillo ejusdem Sanctae Ecclesiae munitas, ei confero.”
What is the part with your name (you can put BLANK). If your name is just before this part, there is probably just before your name words confirming that BLANK “has devoutly visited the Sacred Temple for piety’s sake etc. That (I think, Latin has been a few decades ago except occasional prayers) would make the person confirming nominative and the person they confirm as doing something accusative (He confirms Mary walked). Maybe.
 
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Not that anyone really cares except Latin geeks.
My Latin is useless, so I hardly qualify as a Latin geek. But I like it. And some of us are grammar pedants. :oops:

not that the journey conferred upon so-and-so.
Yes, and the church (subject) is acknowledging that so-and-so (object) walked (verb, obviously). So I think you're right, @Smallest_Sparrow: accusative fits.

Sorry, Jim, we're hijacking your thread. ;)
 

Faye Walker

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CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
What is the part with your name (you can put BLANK). If your name is just before this part, there is probably just before your name words confirming that BLANK “has devoutly visited the Sacred Temple for piety’s sake etc. That (I think, Latin has been a few decades ago except occasional prayers) would make the person confirming nominative and the person they confirm as doing something accusative (He confirms Mary walked). Maybe.

Capitulum hujus Almae Apostolicae et Metropolitanae Ecclesiae Compostellanae sigilli Altaris Beati Jacobi Apostoli custos, ut omnibus Fidelibus et Perigrinis ex toto terrarum Orbe, devotionis affectu vel voti cosa, ad limina Apostoli Nostri Hispaniarum Patroni ac Tutelaris SANCTI JACOBI convenientibus, authenticas visitationis litteras expediat, omni- bus et singulis praesentes inspecturis, notum facit: Dnum/Dnam…. So and so…. Hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. In quorum fidem praesentes litteras, sigillo ejusdem Sanctae Ecclesiae munitas, ei confero.

So, yes… in essence: the officials in charge recognize that Pilgrim X did this thing with the appropriate piety and so on.

In English that means that the entire subordinate clause “Pilgrim X….” Is the object of the verb “recognize”…. But I do not recall Latin grammar from 40 years ago well enough to know, have merely trusted, the case used in the document.
 
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Smallest_Sparrow

Life is rarely what you expect or believe it to be
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Capitulum hujus Almae Apostolicae et Metropolitanae Ecclesiae Compostellanae sigilli Altaris Beati Jacobi Apostoli custos, ut omnibus Fidelibus et Perigrinis ex toto terrarum Orbe, devotionis affectu vel voti cosa, ad limina Apostoli Nostri Hispaniarum Patroni ac Tutelaris SANCTI JACOBI convenientibus, authenticas visitationis litteras expediat, omni- bus et singulis praesentes inspecturis, notum facit: Dnum/Dnam…. So and so…. Hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. In quorum fidem praesentes litteras, sigillo ejusdem Sanctae Ecclesiae munitas, ei confero.
Also sorry for hikacking. Yes, he makes known So and So visited etc. And our grammar pendant @VNwalking comfirms!

I’m sure we can all now sleep tonight 😂
 

Smallest_Sparrow

Life is rarely what you expect or believe it to be
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2012: most of some, all of a few, a bit of others
Capitulum hujus Almae Apostolicae et Metropolitanae Ecclesiae Compostellanae sigilli Altaris Beati Jacobi Apostoli custos, ut omnibus Fidelibus et Perigrinis ex toto terrarum Orbe, devotionis affectu vel voti cosa, ad limina Apostoli Nostri Hispaniarum Patroni ac Tutelaris SANCTI JACOBI convenientibus, authenticas visitationis litteras expediat, omni- bus et singulis praesentes inspecturis, notum facit: Dnum/Dnam…. So and so…. Hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. In quorum fidem praesentes litteras, sigillo ejusdem Sanctae Ecclesiae munitas, ei confero.

So, yes… in essence: the officials in charge recognize that Pilgrim X did this thing with the appropriate piety and so on.

In English that means that the entire subordinate clause “Pilgrim X….” Is the object of the verb “recognize”…. But I do not recall Latin grammar from 40 years ago well enough to know, have merely trusted, the case used in the document.
That’s because you didn’t have Mrs Workman for four years 😳
 

JabbaPapa

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I remember that on my first Compostela the Oficina people did not even bother and my name was written" Sabine ". Another occasion it was " Sabinam " whereas it it much simpler than that and just " Sabina ".
After all, my name can't be more Latin than it is... :)
It's in the Accusative, so "Sabinam" would be the correct form on a Compostela.

And for James, "Jacobum" or "Iacobum".
 
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JabbaPapa

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Good question/observation.
I went to look at mine, and it’s quite clearly the case that so-and-so made the journey, and not that the journey conferred upon so-and-so. It’s a clear, active voice.
No, it's we recognise and grant to so-and-so ....
 

Faye Walker

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CF 2014, CF 2018, CP 2019 from Coimbra
No, it's we recognise and grant to so-and-so ....
Yes, before the colon. what follows after colon, however, is a full, independent clause. The structure is, thus, very complex as a discursive document. That is: the document performs the act of creating a new status, rather like a legal pronouncement, or the conferring of degrees.
I do hope that poor Jacobum can get Ignatium off his coat-tails.
…oh… poor James… we are sad, locked up Pilgrims with little to entertain us!
 
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Kathar1na

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Erm, not quite I'd say to some of the comments :cool:. You've been busy while I was asleep.

The verb is notum facere - to make it known. The verb form is facit - he/she/it makes it known. It's capitulum facit - the chapter (of the Cathedral) makes it known.

Notum facere
is followed by an accusative with infinitive; that's apparently an ACI (accusativum cum infinitivo) and used in indirect speech, as is the case here. So despite the colon, it's notum facit Sabinam visitasse. This construction cannot be rendered literally in English, it's makes it known that Sabina has visited where Sabina is nominative in English but accusative in Latin.

Between about 1750 and 1970, when the Compostela looked more or less as it looks now, they made it known that the recipient had not only visited but had also confessed and taken Communion (sacramental bread - a ritual of Christian churches). This part of the text is gone. It is just the visit of the Cathedral that is made known.

As I said, in my humble opinion, an unnecessarily convoluted and complicated text that could be rendered in a much more user friendly form. Which is probably not the intention ...
 
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Kathar1na

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hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse.
This quote refers to an older version of the Compostela. The current version goes like this:

hoc sacratissimum templum, perfecto itinere sive pedibus sive equitando post postrema centum milia metrorum, birota vero post ducenta, pietatis causa, devote visitasse.

This is my favourite part: birota means bicycle and centum milia metrorum means one hundred thousand metres, which is their way of saying 100 km.

Pedibus and equitando refer to feet and riding, ducenta means two hundred and you can probably guess the rest ☺️. BTW, the commas that they have added to the text makes it easier to figure out what belongs to what.
 
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Jim B

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My Latin is useless, so I hardly qualify as a Latin geek. But I like it. And some of us are grammar pedants. :oops:


Yes, and the church (subject) is acknowledging that so-and-so (object) walked (verb, obviously). So I think you're right, @Smallest_Sparrow: accusative fits.

Sorry, Jim, we're hijacking your thread. ;)

My name is James. I have a number of compostelas and they all have Iacobus on them. I also walked the Camino Ignaciano and that certificate also put my name as Iacobus. Ditto for Salvador.
Thank you, looks like I was just unlucky!
 
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Faye Walker

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No -- It's the direct object of the principle verb of the first sentence.
Parse it. The section prior to the colon cannot function alone; it is a phrase. The clause after the colon is perfectly, gramatically able to stand alone. Because this is a discursive document, the phrase with the principle verb has the power to effect a new status for the pilgrim — a kind of graduand. But the indepndent clause that has to stand on its own (recognized or not) is that fact of the pilgrim having completed the journey over distance X in a particular attitude.
 
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@Faye Walker, I know only a little about fine points of Latin grammar.
But I do know to disagree with @JabbaPapa and @Kathar1na in this realm is to butt heads with two people who really do know what they're talking about. Double down at your own risk. ;)
Anyway we are well off track from the original discussion.
 

Faye Walker

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@Faye Walker, I know only a little about fine points of Latin grammar.
But I do know to disagree with @JabbaPapa and @Kathar1na in this realm is to butt heads with two people who really do know what they're talking about. Double down at your own risk. ;)
Anyway we are well off track from the original discussion.
It’s fine, but I know the difference between a syntactical set-up for a rhetorical purpose, and grammatical structure. I do not disagree that the part after the colon is the object of the verb in the phrase before the colon (I even said so upthread). However, in *no* language, not even in Latin, can you assert that, “I assert that” is an independent clause. The presence of the preposition causes the phrase to rely on whatever follows; moreover, it is almost always implied in any descriptive clause that stands on its own. For example, “The dogs in Spain are not dangerous.” In that clause, my assertion that this is so is implied. The clause itself, however, is independent.
The clause on the Compostela is complete, can stand on its own and does not rely on the introductory phrase. There is a syntactical and theoretical reliance on the verification from the implied authority (The one who makes the testimony). But that is a matter of rhetoric, not grammar.
Also, I would never just wander in to a conversation mid-stream and use a dismissive “nope” as was done to me. It was rude, aggressive, and unnecessary and earned itself a parsimoniously frank reply in what has been an otherwise fun conversation.

Edit to add: One can have two totally independent clauses thusly structured: I assert. Pilgrim X did a thing. Awkward and obtuse as that is, it does not alter the independent status of the Pilgrim X clause.

I’ll set aside matters of prepositions, a various forms of punctuation, and conjunctions for the structuring of relationships of meaning in complex sentences. I do, however, love a properly deployed semicolon.
 
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Bristle Boy

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I have looked and can find nothing that links Ignatium/Ignatius with the name James in Latin.
Perhaps there is an explanation but I have been unable to find one. Perhaps the issuing authority could help.
 
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Jim B

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I have looked and can find nothing that links Ignatium/Ignatius with the name James in Latin.
Perhaps there is an explanation but I have been unable to find one. Perhaps the issuing authority could help.
Thank you and yes, that's certainly been the general consensus.
 

JabbaPapa

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The clause itself, however, is independent.
The clause on the Compostela is complete, can stand on its own and does not rely on the introductory phrase. There is a syntactical and theoretical reliance on the verification from the implied authority (The one who makes the testimony). But that is a matter of rhetoric, not grammar.
Also, I would never just wander in to a conversation mid-stream and use a dismissive “nope” as was done to me. It was rude, aggressive, and unnecessary and earned itself a parsimoniously frank reply in what has been an otherwise fun conversation.
This is incorrect.

Using the older text ...

Capitulum hujus Almae Apostolicae et Metropolitanae Ecclesiae Compostellanae sigilli Altaris Beati Jacobi Apostoli custos, (subject)

ut omnibus Fidelibus et Perigrinis ex toto terrarum Orbe, devotionis affectu vel voti cosa, ad limina Apostoli Nostri Hispaniarum Patroni ac Tutelaris SANCTI JACOBI convenientibus, authenticas visitationis litteras expediat, omnibus et singulis praesentes inspecturis, (complex conditional clause, that I'll refrain from breaking down further, for clarity' sake)

notum facit : (verb)

Dnum/Dnam____ (object)

Hoc sacratissimum Templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. (subordinate clause) (take note that "Dnum/Dnam" cannot be the "subject" of a new sentence, as there is no verb here in the indicative present) (see here https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Latin/Lesson_8-Ablative_Absolute_and_Accusative_Infinitive -- under Accusative Infinitive for an easy description of the grammar, with simple examples)

In quorum fidem praesentes litteras, sigillo ejusdem Sanctae Ecclesiae munitas, ei confero. (second sentence ; take note of confero, verb in the indicative present)

I'm sorry Faye, but you really are out of your depth here. Colons do not work in Latin in the same way as they do in English, and you are making far too much of this particular one. And not even in English does a colon always indicate the end of one sentence and the start of another.

LAST post on this, sorry.
 

LesR

Active Member
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Camino Frances 2017, 2018; Camino Portuguese 2019
Putting aside the scholarship - have come cross the following;

Yaakov Ben-Zebedi (also known as James the Greater) was one of Christ’s twelve Apostles. The original name became Iacobus in Latin, Jakob in German, Jacopo in Italian, Sant Iago in Spanish and Saint James in English.

Sadly, no Ignatium.
 
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Kathar1na

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take note that "Dnum/Dnam" cannot be the "subject" of a new sentence, as there is no verb here in the indicative present
Yes.

I apologise for adding to the thread drift again. I had tried to not comment anymore. But it goes against my grain to let comments stand that are so not right. I'm sure that those who did Latin at school or uni and enjoy the puzzle of figuring out the structure of a sentence appreciate it. Thanks, @JabbaPapa.

It is simple for anyone with a basic knowledge of Latin:

Dnum/Dnam____ hoc sacratissimum templum pietatis causa devote visitasse
is not an independent clause. Dnum/Dnam is the accusative form of dominus/domina !!! It is the very reason why this discussion started. The only verb is visitasse which is put in infinitive perfect here !!!! Here's a link to the conjugation table for visitare for those who wish to jog their memories.

The independent clause is: Capitulum notum facit dnum/dnam____ hoc sacratissimum templum pietatis causa devote visitasse. Let me spell it out step by step: capitulum is the subject in nominative; facit is the verb in indicative present; drum/dnam visitasse is the object and it is an accusative cum infinitive. This ACI and the reason for it had already been explained many posts ago.
 
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Jim B

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Putting aside the scholarship - have come cross the following;

Yaakov Ben-Zebedi (also known as James the Greater) was one of Christ’s twelve Apostles. The original name became Iacobus in Latin, Jakob in German, Jacopo in Italian, Sant Iago in Spanish and Saint James in English.

Sadly, no Ignatium.
Thank you for that, I've resigned myself to having been mislabeled!
 

Kathar1na

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Past OR future Camino
To Santiago and back (roads & paths; Tours; Francés; sea; roads & paths)
BTW, to clear up any possible misinterpretation, the last sentence of the Latin text of the Compostela where the idle eye may spot the word confero doesn't mean that some new status is conferred upon the pilgrim who has visited the Cathedral. It means that a piece of paper, namely the Compostela, has been handed over to the pilgrim.

In this case, as we all agree, either handed over to the wrong pilgrim or it was the wrong document.

Now don't anyone dare say that this wasn't an interesting discussion. 🤭🙂
 
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