Portuguese Drivers

[dpatterson0516]

I walked the Portuguese Coastal from Porto and San Salvador this spring after my life changing experience on the Norte and Primitivo in autumn 2022. This autumn I tackled the Portuguese Central from Lisbon and had 100's of close encounters with too fast and too close drivers in Portugal. One near Ambruja was almost life ending as a transport truck came directly at me at high speed on a highway with no shoulder. I moved as far away from the truck as possible, slipped fell to the ground and watched vehicle tires whiz 6 inches from my face until there was a break in traffic and I regained my feet. I had no such issues in Spain. The close calls on the narrow roads in Portugal were daily and multiple. I am interested in your experience on the Central.

 

[HumanistHiker]

I was actually pleasantly surprised by Portuguese drivers. I was aware that Portugal had a poor reputation for road safety compared with many European countries.

I was only on the Central from Arcos north (having cut across from Vila do Conde after 2 days on the Littoral from Porto).

The Saturday I cut across from Vila do Conde to Arcos there was quite a lot of walking on roads with no pavements (sidewalks), but mostly country roads not major highways, so fewer trucks. Portuguese drivers were far more likely in my experience than Spanish ones to slow down, especially when I was crossing the road whether at a zebra crossing or otherwise. I did not have any close calls with drivers passing me too fast or too close.

I understand that the Lisboa to Porto section of the central does include much more walking along busy roads. I did speak to a French peregrina who had walked from Lisboa and she said that section of the walk was generally horrible due to walking along the busy roads with trucks .

There was a short section further north (near Arcade) along a busier section of road with trucks but they didn't whizz past too close - the hard shoulder was not too narrow.

Speaking to the lovely lady who ran the Grava bicycle cafe in Barcelos, I suspect your experience may be more typical. She catered a lot to cyclists and said that drivers in Portugal do not give cyclists a sufficiently wide berth when passing, and she had cycling friends who had died in road accidents. She reckoned Spanish drivers were much more aware of cyclists and safer around them.

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

I walked from Porto to Santiago. There were too many narrow roads, with no shoulders and "fenced in" with walls, houses. Nearing a bend these were dangerous situations. Wheather the driving behaviour of Portuguese drivers is worse than for instance Spanish I cannot tell. If the situation between Lissabon and Porto is still worse I would not walk there

 

[peregrino_tom]

Hi dpatterson, this is something I felt compelled to comment on eleven years ago. But ultimately the distress it caused me was outweighed by all the good things I found - hope that was the same for you.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/lisbon-to-porto-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly.15771/

 

[Roland49]

Made good experience on the Coastal with drivers. Very polite and pilgrim-friendly. Same on the 4 days in Spain after walking up from Caminha to Tui. No major issues. But I had no major issues in 2019 on the Francés, either. Maybe it's a seasonal thing, like I walk only in July (vacation time)?

 

[Anniesantiago]

I greatly dislike that central route for the reasons you state.
I'm Portuguese and I admit Portuguese local drivers are some of the worst. They drive fast and that route has many places where there is absolutely no shoulder - no safe place to walk. With all the routes a person can choose, I'd save that one for last.

 

[David Tallan]

I walked from Porto to Santiago, crossing over from Vila do Conde to Arcos, five years ago (Oct 2018). That includes a stretch of road walking that many complain about. I certainly don't remember the drivers as being worse than elsewhere. Maybe I just got lucky. Maybe you just got unlucky.

 

[El Ramon]

I walked the Portuguese Coastal from Porto and San Salvador this spring after my life changing experience on the Norte and Primitivo in autumn 2022. This autumn I tackled the Portuguese Central from Lisbon and had 100's of close encounters with too fast and too close drivers in Portugal. One near Ambruja was almost life ending as a transport truck came directly at me at high speed on a highway with no shoulder. I moved as far away from the truck as possible, slipped fell to the ground and watched vehicle tires whiz 6 inches from my face until there was a break in traffic and I regained my feet. I had no such issues in Spain. The close calls on the narrow roads in Portugal were daily and multiple. I am interested in your experience on the Central.

I couldn't agree more....Finished the central from Oporto a couple of weeks ago...the first few days along the roads were so dangerous....the people in this area do not even think about pulling over to give you room, and quite often there is 0 shoulder and a wall ....take any variants that get you off the roads....

 

[LTfit]

Agree totally and I would therefore not repeat the Portuguese from Porto although the Coastal and litoral are much better than the central route which I found horrendous even though I walked in March with very, very few pilgrims. I personally don't get why some rave about it (besides the friendliness of the Portuguese).

The first three days out of Porto on the central route are dangerous! Cars were parked on the sidewalks and added to that crazy drivers whizzing by made it quite unpleasant.

 

[jbrehove]

I walked the Portuguese Coastal from Porto and San Salvador this spring after my life changing experience on the Norte and Primitivo in autumn 2022. This autumn I tackled the Portuguese Central from Lisbon and had 100's of close encounters with too fast and too close drivers in Portugal. One near Ambruja was almost life ending as a transport truck came directly at me at high speed on a highway with no shoulder. I moved as far away from the truck as possible, slipped fell to the ground and watched vehicle tires whiz 6 inches from my face until there was a break in traffic and I regained my feet. I had no such issues in Spain. The close calls on the narrow roads in Portugal were daily and multiple. I am interested in your experience on the Central.

Wow, that’s an awful experience. I walked from Tomar to Santiago in 2015 and while I didn’t notice the drivers were so bad, the lack of shoulders and the amount of road walking made it not too pleasant at times. The section north of Porto is actually much nicer than the section south of Porto as far as road walking is concerned.

 

[Harland2019]

Whilst I haven't walked that part, where there is no pavement I hold my walking poles sideways across my chest with the points sticking well out into the road. It appears to have an effect on car drivers, not sure about lorry drivers!

 

[trecile]

When I was walking on roads between Lisbon and Porto I put up my silver handsfree umbrella to make myself more visible (hopefully not as a target )

 

[Kiwi-family]

Have only walked from Porto, but, yeah - they were a different breed of driver!

 

[Sidknee]

Having recently completed the Porto to Santiago, and then a number of other Caminos (Invierno, Inglés, Muxia etc) back-to-back my experience has been that Portuguese drivers didn’t seem to be any worse or better than other drivers. What I did note, was that the route plays a big part in the car v pilgrim experience.

Routes with little or no separate walking space always had me on high alert. The roads sometimes left no room for a margin of error for either the drivers or the pilgrims.

Short of changing the routes, I’d suggest that it is important that we understand that the slightest of miscalculations by either can have catastrophic physical and emotional outcomes for the pilgrim (and life long emotional impacts for the driver).

In regards to comments about using walking poles to ward off cars, I’d counsel extreme caution with that approach. Firstly at speed the driver is unlikely to see your poles and then secondly if they clip your poles the impact could toss you into the path of on coming traffic or off the road into drains etc.. Be very careful.

Maybe as a community we should consider working with local authorities to identify the black spots and find alternate pathways around these hot spots? Is this an option? I don’t know if this Forum has that collective capacity?

Buen Camino

 

[Rita Flower]

I walked the Central route from Lisbon in 2018 and don't recall the cars / road walking being any more difficult than anywhere else.
What I do remember is the weekend cycling groups. One particular time sticks in mind, when a group came barrelling towards me down a long steep dirt track. There was no way they could have stopped. I obviously got out of the way but I seem to remember it was a close call.
I can't imagine a similar encounter with a truck.

 

[Sidknee]

I think it was @NorthernLight who posted on another thread that it was Spanish Law requirement for people walking on roads to wear high visibility vests. I’m trying to track it down.

Wondering if that also applies in Portugal?

Having said that I haven’t seen many pilgrims doing that…a quick scan of Amazon idéntica heaps of high vis backpack covers and high vis backpack patches. None seem expensive (~$10).

 

[JCLima]

Wondering if that also applies in Portugal?

Yes

 

[trecile]

I think it was @NorthernLight who posted on another thread that it was Spanish Law requirement for people walking on roads to wear high visibility vests. I’m trying to track it down.

Wondering if that also applies in Portugal?

When I was walking from Lisbon there were many pilgrims in groups walking to Fatima. Almost all of them were wearing safety vests.

 

[Lindsay53]

I had a Spanish lady pass close by me on a narrow road, stop and wave a yellow safety vest at me, obviously implying I should be wearing one. Maybe so, however I don't take road safety advice from a driver who has children in the car, one of whom was in the front seat, none in child seats and none wearing seat belts.

 

[GabiAn]

Whilst I haven't walked that part, where there is no pavement I hold my walking poles sideways across my chest with the points sticking well out into the road. It appears to have an effect on car drivers, not sure about lorry drivers!

I do the same while training (still haven’t walked) I’ve found that two poles sticking out stop drivers from getting too close… especially when cars are new and they obviously want to avoid a scratch on their cars

 

[dougfitz]

I am torn between defending Portuguese drivers because they have to drive on some quite appalling roads, and agreeing that they aren't the best that I have ever seen. They might take exception to my view of the cobbled and other surfaces they have to negotiate, and the narrow roads with minimal verges that seem to be major secondary roads with substantial numbers of heavy goods vehicles moving along them. Walking even short distances along these was little short of terrifying.

That said, I would make the same observation about Portuguese drivers as I would about other nationalities where I have been forced onto similar roads. They are generally inconsiderate of walkers, even when we do the utmost to make ourselves visible. There are parts of the S:t Olavsleden in Sweden and the Augustine Camino in England where one is forced to use roads with no verge. I would use a high-visibility fabric panel on my pack, a white light on my pack harness at the front and a flashing red light attached to my pack at the back. It never felt enough! Drivers still went past far too fast and far too close for comfort.

 

[Antonius Vaessen]

Like I said before for me the problem arises more from the situation : narrow, walled-in roads with no shoulders. I cannot remember any moment when I felt endangered by behaviour of drivers on straight roads. I felt unsave when nearing a bend to the left and when you could not see if a car was coming. In these circumstances both driver and walker should adapt to the situation ( local drivers wiil know of the dangerous situation) I chose to cross the street to the right side to have more space and a lttle more view.

 

[Gary94123]

Whilst I haven't walked that part, where there is no pavement I hold my walking poles sideways across my chest with the points sticking well out into the road. It appears to have an effect on car drivers, not sure about lorry drivers!

I did the same and felt like a matador at times.

 

[David Tallan]

I think it was @NorthernLight who posted on another thread that it was Spanish Law requirement for people walking on roads to wear high visibility vests. I’m trying to track it down.

Wondering if that also applies in Portugal?

Having said that I haven’t seen many pilgrims doing that…a quick scan of Amazon idéntica heaps of high vis backpack covers and high vis backpack patches. None seem expensive (~$10).

I think that law only required high visibility vests at night/in the dark. Although I could be misremembering.

 

[alansykes]

I walked the Torres and then the Geira e Dos Arrieiros last year. I was really quite shocked how bad the Portuguese drivers were, considering how charming and polite most of them are once away from their steering wheels. This is what I wrote then:

I've seen some really bad drivers recently, and it can be quite frightening having to jump into the ditch to avoid getting squashed by a speeding numbskull. Doing a little idle googling when I got to my hotel, I was not surprised to find that (according to WHO figures) the Portuguese are the most dangerous drivers in Western Europe - over 60% more road deaths per capita than Spain, more than double the English rate and treble the Scandinavian.

 

[dick bird]

I walked the Torres and then the Geira e Dos Arrieiros last year. I was really quite shocked how bad the Portuguese drivers were, considering how charming and polite most of them are once away from their steering wheels. This is what I wrote then:

Just noticed this thread. Even Portuguese people will, if pushed to answer, admit they are not the world´s best drivers. Here are some recent statistics: Deaths per million inhabitants, Sweden, 27 (lowest in Europe); UK 28, Spain 39, Portugal 57. I rest my case.

Archive:Road safety statistics - characteristics at national and regional level - Statistics Explained

This article takes a look at trends in the number of lives lost in road traffic accidents in the European Union (EU) at national and regional level.

ec.europa.eu

 

[Sidknee]

Motor-Vehicle Deaths in the U.S. Compared to the World
Road safety in the United States lags other high-income countries
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted a study comparing the United States to 28 other high-income countries regarding road safety in 2015 and 2019. This analysis found that in 2019 the United States experienced:

• More motor-vehicle deaths than any other country
• The highest rate of motor-vehicle deaths per 100,000 population than any other country
• The fourth highest motor-vehicle deaths per 10,000 registered vehicles compared to other countries
• The sixth highest motor-vehicle deaths per 100 million vehicle miles compared to other countries

In addition, the number of motor-vehicle deaths in the United States increased 2.5% from 2015 to 2019. During this same time, 15 other high-income countries experienced decreases in motor-vehicle deaths.
Use the interactive chart to view country rankings and percent changes from 2015 to 2019.
Source: Yellman, M.A. & Sauber-Schatz, E.K. (2022). Motor Vehicle Crash Deaths – United States and 28 Other High-Income Countries, 2015 and 2019. MMWR, 71: 837-843

I think that statistics don’t paint the whole picture. There are multiple factors at play that add and subtract to the story.

I note that the greatest proportion of Portugals fatalities are record as being on rural roads, which may reflect the state of the infrastructure in those areas.

Whilst Portugals road deaths are currently bove the European Union average, they have been one of the most improved in reducing the road toll over the past 10 years. There are plenty of other countries above them on the list.

I’m not trying to defend a poor road record, rather I think that there maybe other factors at play. Simply saying that “Portugues are bad drivers” really is a lazy assessment and characterisers all drivers in Portugal unfairly.

Thank God we don’t have hiking/walking trails near or on roads in Australia...

Buen Camino

 

[JCLima]

I note that the greatest proportion of Portugals fatalities are record as being on rural roads, which may reflect the state of the infrastructure in those areas.

Whilst Portugals road deaths are currently bove the European Union average, they have been one of the most improved in reducing the road toll over the past 10 years. There are plenty of other countries above them on the list.

I’m not trying to defend a poor road record, rather I think that there maybe other factors at play. Simply saying that “Portugues are bad drivers” really is a lazy assessment and characterisers all drivers in Portugal unfairly.

We are aggressive drivers.

Edit: most Portuguese drivers don't drive defensively.
I have lived in other countries and can feel the difference between their driving and ours.
Sure, not all Portuguese drivers are bad, but as a whole, we suck. There's no need to make excuses.

 

[dick bird]

We are aggressive drivers.

If ¨we¨ means Americans, I have to say that I don´t think you are any more aggressive than drivers in other countries. In fact, from admittedly limited personal observation I´d say the opposite.

Incidentally, road accidents are the second most common cause of death of pilgrims behind heart failure, but cyclists are disproportionately represented in the group.

I note that the greatest proportion of Portugals fatalities are record as being on rural roads, which may reflect the state of the infrastructure in those areas.

Back in the 1980s I taught a Portuguese doctor (English) and I asked him if there was an area of medical treatment where Portuguese doctors had especial expertise, he said there was, it was treating head and brain trauma. I asked him why, he said ´Look at all those teenagers on mopeds and no helmets. What do you expect?´ Here in Australia, single vehicle accidents in rural areas are a big problem. I suspect the US and Portugal are the same. Conversely, the low death rate in the UK may be because the roads are so crowded nobody can drive more than 30mph.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

@dick bird , @JCLima is Portuguese

 

[Fred2a]

After 2 days out of Lisbon, I bought a yellow safety jacket, the same the numerous Fatima pilgrims all wearing. I felt safer.
I think the problem is more the configuration of the path than the reckless driving. It is indeed impressive on some parts as you are so close to the road.
The worst part for me was between Azinhaga and Golega (stage 5). I only realized once arrived that I missed an alternative path to that dangerous cobblestone road.

 

[NYSE]

I walked the Portuguese Coastal from Porto and San Salvador this spring after my life changing experience on the Norte and Primitivo in autumn 2022. This autumn I tackled the Portuguese Central from Lisbon and had 100's of close encounters with too fast and too close drivers in Portugal. One near Ambruja was almost life ending as a transport truck came directly at me at high speed on a highway with no shoulder. I moved as far away from the truck as possible, slipped fell to the ground and watched vehicle tires whiz 6 inches from my face until there was a break in traffic and I regained my feet. I had no such issues in Spain. The close calls on the narrow roads in Portugal were daily and multiple. I am interested in your experience on the Central.

Having taken that same path out of Lisbon this past October, I can attest, there are some hairy stretches. I quickly learned Portuguese drivers don't slow down when passing a pilgrim and most don't slide to the other side of the road even when the opportunity exists. Given that, i did have one of those camino moments and thank the driver: I was walking outside of a small town and up ahead the road split right and left. The arrow up ahead appeared to be pointing left and I was on the right. I began to cross the road, but I could hear a car approaching. I thought I had enough time to cross without incident. I got across and could hear the car approaching. Soon it was on my side (should have been on other side). Then it was right next to me. I prepared for the scream. The window opened. Here it comes, I thought. Out came a fresh bottle of water and a harty buen camino.

 

[peregrina2000]

I have lived in other countries and can feel the difference between their driving and ours.
Sure, not all Portuguese drivers are bad, but as a whole, we suck. There's no need to make excuses.

@JCLima, it is such a cultural conundrum to me, I wonder if sociologists have tackled this question in some advanced research.

I drove a car in Portugal just a few months ago, from Lisbon to Bragança and back with lots of meandering in between. I definitely noticed lower speeds on the Autovias. In the past, cars would roar by when I was at the speed limit, surely going 160 or 180. But this year that happened very very rarely. One of my students in Lisbon suggested it might be because there are new remote traffic control devices like speed cameras. He said, though, that the legality of these devices is being challenged. Do you know anything about this?

 

[alexwalker]

I walked the Portuguese Coastal from Porto and San Salvador this spring after my life changing experience on the Norte and Primitivo in autumn 2022. This autumn I tackled the Portuguese Central from Lisbon and had 100's of close encounters with too fast and too close drivers in Portugal. One near Ambruja was almost life ending as a transport truck came directly at me at high speed on a highway with no shoulder. I moved as far away from the truck as possible, slipped fell to the ground and watched vehicle tires whiz 6 inches from my face until there was a break in traffic and I regained my feet. I had no such issues in Spain. The close calls on the narrow roads in Portugal were daily and multiple. I am interested in your experience on the Central.

I started in Lisbon one year, but after 5 days of near-death experiences on narrow highways etc, and freuently found lorry drivers in petrol stations having a "rest" beer or two, I quit, and took a train to Porto and walked from there.

IMHO, having been on the ground, walking from Lisbon is not at all pilgrim-friendly. A No-repeat for me.

I have been criss-crossing Spain by car, and found Spanish drivers to be completely different: Polite and not aggressive.

 

[JCLima]

@JCLima, it is such a cultural conundrum to me, I wonder if sociologists have tackled this question in some advanced research.

I drove a car in Portugal just a few months ago, from Lisbon to Bragança and back with lots of meandering in between. I definitely noticed lower speeds on the Autovias. In the past, cars would roar by when I was at the speed limit, surely going 160 or 180. But this year that happened very very rarely. One of my students in Lisbon suggested it might be because there are new remote traffic control devices like speed cameras. He said, though, that the legality of these devices is being challenged. Do you know anything about this?

I do know about the speed radars, but I'm not sure it the two things are related; it's probably just a coincidence (I might be totally wrong!)

I can't explain why your experience was different, and I'd like to think we're becoming more responsible drivers, but the skeptic in me thinks that maybe people just cant afford the gas; higher speeds mean higher consumption (a random thought, based on absolutely no evidence!)

 

[Fred2a]

After 2 days out of Lisbon, I bought a yellow safety jacket, the same the numerous Fatima pilgrims all wearing. I felt safer.
I think the problem is more the configuration of the path than the reckless driving. It is indeed impressive on some parts as you are so close to the road.
The worst part for me was between Azinhaga and Golega (stage 5). I only realized once arrived that I missed an alternative path to that dangerous cobblestone road.

That said, it didn’t ruin my experience at all.
And I still enjoyed every minute of that camino. I didn’t mind the industrial zone or the normal roadside walking. I took it all, as it is.

 

[dpatterson0516]

Made good experience on the Coastal with drivers. Very polite and pilgrim-friendly. Same on the 4 days in Spain after walking up from Caminha to Tui. No major issues. But I had no major issues in 2019 on the Francés, either. Maybe it's a seasonal thing, like I walk only in July (vacation time)?

I had no issues with drivers on the Portuguese Coastal this April. There were few high speed/high traffic roads and a greater police presence. On the Central I didn't see a cop between Lisbon and Porto. Then no cops until Spain. Also there were very few narrow, walled cobblestone roads on the coastal.