Hurry Krishna
Indian on the Way
- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2009 (from Sarria), 2014 from St Jean Pied de Port, 2016 from Porto, 2018 from Le Puy to Santiago.
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O? I thought they were used to navigating in the northern hemisphere but perished in Oz, because they couldn’t read the stars upside downHmm, I travelled in the Northern Territory recently too, and agree that the Milky Way is a magnificent sight. I fear, though, that if you had tried to use it to lead you to Santiago, you would have discovered why so many early European explorers perished in the Australian outback. I think we would prefer to have you here alive and kicking than looking for your body in the wilds of the Kimberley or Pilbara.
On point 15: don’t more of the routes coming from the North from France actually meet at Puente Le Reina rather than SJPdp?For what it is worth, here are my two or three cents worth... I am presenting these thoughts as bullet points so they might be debated individually, as appropriate.
Hope this helps the dialog. Feel free to disagree... Discussion is good.
- I believe that Tinka (OP) is correct that the Camino does not start at St. Jean Pied de Port, per se.
- Most all early writings on this suggest that one's camino starts at one's home, or perhaps your local church. You departed from there and walked to Santiago de Compostela.
- However, starting from there, individual paths gradually merged into more heavily traveled routes across all or Europe, and eventually leading south and west in the direction of Santiago de Compostela.
- Eventually, all of these routes would have to get over the Pyrenees mountain range that separates what is now France from what is now Spain. IIRC, this can be done only at four places where there are either coastal plains or passes through the mountains.
- The passes (West to East) are near Irun on the Atlantic coast, the Napoleon / Valcarlos Pass at St. Jean Pied de Porte, the Somport Pass, and the coastal area on the Mediterranean, north of Barcelona.
- Most of the routes coming from northern europe passed through Bordeaux, Paris, and or Toulouse, before merging north of St Jean Pied de Port at another town (?Pau?).
- From this merge, the prevalent route across the Pyrenees develops where the present day Napoleon Pass / Valcarlos option are. A mountain pass is never to be discounted.
- Over time, and if you look at a diagram of all the routes coming from north, you can see an almost scallop shell design, with the main spine or route running more or less down the center. This would be the Camino Frances.
- I suspect that, over time, demand created a supply of services and accommodations for pilgrims along this route. One fed on the other, and the route grew in use and prosperity.
- In addition, if you look at the politics and warfare of the time, you recognize that the route of the Camino Frances also represented the approximate northern extent of the Moorish occupation and consolidated control of Iberia.
- Because of push-back from the indigenous peoples (Basques) and the inflow of Christians due to inception of the Camino from the mid-800s, the Moors were not able to establish full and complete control over the northern territories, beyond about where the Camino Frances is today.
- The line of Templar fortifications, churches and monasteries along this route of travel tends to support this conjecture. If word got out that pilgrims were largely protected from be victimized by the Moors along this line of March, it would logically become the favored route.
- Supporting this assessment is the statement made in many a pilgrim Mass at St. Jean Pied de Port by the presiding priest. To wit: "...we have been preparing pilgrims to continue their journey over the mountains to Santiago de Compostela for more than 1100 years..." I have heard this several times...
- Finally, on the geographical importance of St. Jean Pied de Port, I believe it was the last place a pilgrim could rest up, equip or provision themselves for the walk over the mountain, until they arrived at the Roncesvalles monastery, or before that, Pamplona...
- My considered opinion is that while the Camino does NOT START at SJPdP (See #2 above), the confluence of routes from the north into a single stream, onwards to Santiago de Compostela, DOES enforce the notion that at least the final segment of the Europe-wide network of Camino routes does combine at SJPdP. I believe that is the basis for the incorrect assessment that the Camino Frances starts at SJPdp.
- In summary, the Camino Frances does start at SJPdP, because it starts in France, traverses the Pyrenees into Spain, and leads the pilgrim to Santiago de Compostela.
On point 15: don’t more of the routes coming from the North from France actually meet at Puente Le Reina rather than SJPdp?
Thanks. Interesting. I was taking my cue from Frederik Gros’ ‘Philosophy of Walking’. He talks about the establishment already in the Middle Ages of 4 main (and many subsidiary) routes from France - starting from Le Puy or Vezelay or Tours or Toulouse. Don’t 3 of these meet in Puente Le Reina?Yes and no, IIRC several routes form the north and east of the Pyrenees converge at SJPdP, or other places like Logrono, Burgos, Leon, or whereas one or two other routes meet the Frances at Puente la Reina. In any event, once the merge with the DF, they are all counted as being the CF.
Distance certificates that state your route into Santiago, as well as the entry made to the database for statistical purposes will state Camino Frances. All tributary routes flowing into major routes are counted as solely the route that ended at Santiago.
The exceptions are for routes, like the Norte, that are near 100% independent before flowing into the Frances just before Santiago. The Ingles and Primitivo are like this two. So too, is the Via de la Plata.
On the Madrid Route, most of the distance is before you join the Frances at Leon, or Sahagun, so this is counted as the Madrid.
There are other examples of this policy.
Because in good Catholic tradition, you must start out in suffering before being redeemed, and the walk to Roncesvalles is definitely suffering.
The alternative suggestion is that SJDP just had the best marketing department.
eh, that's Protestant ...
While you certainly have the right to ask the question, personally, I think it is irrelevant. You start with your question saying you are not a contrarian nor a provocateur. But, we all know, many pilgrims for a variety of reasons, harbor a resentment that many pilgrims choose to start THEIR pilgrimage at St. Jean. Do you resent that so many pilgrims, for whatever their reason, choose to start there?
Thanks. Interesting. I was taking my cue from Frederik Gros’ ‘Philosophy of Walking’. He talks about the establishment already in the Middle Ages of 4 main (and many subsidiary) routes from France - starting from Le Puy or Vezelay or Tours or Toulouse. Don’t 3 of these meet in Puente Le Reina?
Can you give us chapter and verse where this specifically is quoted: 'a recognised Camino route'?With the most recent addition to the Compostela rules that is actually the situation for some. If you are a Galician living within a 100km radius of the Cathedral and wish to receive a Compostela at the end of your pilgrimage you must now travel away from Santiago to a point on a recognised Camino route at least 100km from the city and walk from there. The same is true for Galicians further afield who live in some part of the province at some distance from a "recognised" route. What seems like the obvious thing to do - simply to walk by the most convenient/practical/interesting route from your own front door - is no longer acceptable to the cathedral. A situation I find bizarre.
“Suffering is overrated”.
Said by NYC Episcopal priest circa 2002.
"Why do pilgrims think they need to suffer? Send your luggage ahead." said a monk at Rabanal.
Resent, certainly not. I wish joy to any Pilgrim wherever they start their journey. I posed the question, and its qualifications, purely out of curiosity. It has intrigued me for many years, ever since my own first Camino - which I started in StJpdP. The cursory research I had done at the time and the easy rail connections from London led me there.
Much of this discussion with its mix of History, Geography, Logistics and speculation is exactly what I had hoped for and has enhanced my understanding of the modern phenomenon of the Camino Frances. I'm surprised to learn that many Pilgrims resent the choices of others. But then, I posed the question in hope of gaining learning.
This is quickly disappearing from living memory, I think ☺: the bit between Ostabat and Puente La Reina carries the name "via Navarra" or "camino Navarro" and there are guidebooks (and local administrations in Spain) in whose view/use of language the Navarra way and the Aragon way join near Puente La Reina to form the Santiago way/way of the Franks/way of the French from then onwards.the Arles route becomes the Aragones and joins the Frances at Puente La Reina, although really it joins at Obanos.
@rappahannock_rev, the details are fascinating!
Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
You could have fooled me!Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur
Maybe from your time zone! From mine, 8 or 9 hours behind, I eagerly turned on my computer this morning to find 66 fervent new posts on this thread.In a rare display of self discipline, the forum members stayed on track overnight.
Actually I found that I needed a second cup of cup to catch up on the posts. 20 more posts appeared while I was getting coffee.This thread is better than a morning cup of Coffee
Yes, I am finding the vehemence of argument to be puzzling. WHAT are we arguing about? Is it the historical and semantic truths about the name of a route? In many posts there seems to be an implied criticism of people who start in SJPP (ignorant, misinformed, overly susceptible to mass media).many pilgrims for a variety of reasons, harbor a resentment that many pilgrims choose to start THEIR pilgrimage at St. Jean.
Simple and true.the Camino Frances does start at SJPdP, because it starts in France
Again, simple and true, at least in terms of the semantic and historical arguments.So then people start wherever they want instead -- and this is completely non-problematic !!!
I believe the Camino starts in your heart and you wander from there.Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
I think that some who walk the Caminos now have the romantic idea that walking the Camino Frances has continued more or less unbroken since the Middle Ages. But by the 1970s the practice had all but died out. The few who did walk it did not follow a signposted footpath but rather made their own ways between the towns and villages from the Pyrenees to Santiago.
The idea of a defined, waymarked, mapped and documented route with a guidebook and dedicated pilgrim accommodation really dates from the late 1970s and early 1980s when Don Elias Valina and his associates marked out the route now known as the Camino Frances. Oddly enough that is not what Valina himself called the route in his seminal 1984 guidebook: he simply refers to it as the Camino de Santiago. In reality the Camino Frances of today is far more a creation of the late 20th century rather than a continuation of medieval practice. Don Elias chose to describe a route which begins in SJPDP. His highly influential book starts there. And a lot of us have something of a fixation with walking a "complete" route.
While it is obviously true that in previous centuries pilgrims walked from many different places to Santiago the 20th century Camino revival began with one clearly defined and documented path. It was only after the revival in interest in the Camino Frances had taken root that the multitude of alternative paths were created or resurrected. The thing which I find most odd in retrospect is that Valina described the route from SJPDP as his second option - the first route he describes is the Somport-Canfranc Aragones way. I have never really understood why SJPDP has so greatly eclipsed Somport as a starting point.
I read an article about the Camino in the UK Daily Telegraph newspaper in 2000. The journalist started out from SJPP and so did I in 2001.I first walked the CF in 2001, before Shirley etc. I relied on a little booklet put out by the Confraternity of St James in London. The first stage in that booklet was from SJPDP, so that is where I started. So I blame the Confraternity!
I think that some who walk the Caminos now have the romantic idea that walking the Camino Frances has continued more or less unbroken since the Middle Ages. But by the 1970s the practice had all but died out. The few who did walk it did not follow a signposted footpath but rather made their own ways between the towns and villages from the Pyrenees to Santiago.
The idea of a defined, waymarked, mapped and documented route with a guidebook and dedicated pilgrim accommodation really dates from the late 1970s and early 1980s when Don Elias Valina and his associates marked out the route now known as the Camino Frances. Oddly enough that is not what Valina himself called the route in his seminal 1984 guidebook: he simply refers to it as the Camino de Santiago. In reality the Camino Frances of today is far more a creation of the late 20th century rather than a continuation of medieval practice. Don Elias chose to describe a route which begins in SJPDP. His highly influential book starts there. And a lot of us have something of a fixation with walking a "complete" route.
While it is obviously true that in previous centuries pilgrims walked from many different places to Santiago the 20th century Camino revival began with one clearly defined and documented path. It was only after the revival in interest in the Camino Frances had taken root that the multitude of alternative paths were created or resurrected. The thing which I find most odd in retrospect is that Valina described the route from SJPDP as his second option - the first route he describes is the Somport-Canfranc Aragones way. I have never really understood why SJPDP has so greatly eclipsed Somport as a starting point.
4. Poles on planesNote To Self: Subjects Off Limits at the Table
- Religion
- Politics
- Official Start to the Camino
The first time I heard about the Camino was about thirty years ago when I read an article in National Geographic about a pilgrimage from Le Puy all the way to Santiago, aprox 1600km it said, I decided then that this was for me but work, home renovation and a triple bypass distracted me for several years. Fast forward to 2012 when my brother rang me from Australia and said he had retired and was going to walk the Camino and to pack my bag and get myself ready... and ....we were walking from St. Jean, which was where he was told it started. So I guess it all depends where you are told it starts when you don't know yourself. Now I believe it starts when you leave home and whether you walk all the way like many Europeans I met or whether you take planes, trains etc. Your staging point after that is a matter of choice.
There are far more than just three stages on the "full Camino", and truth is I don't think I even know all of them myself yet, as this 2019-2020 is my first time doing one.
4. Poles on planes
Interesting. I lived on the Sahara Desert for 2 years and the Milky Way was aligned right over my village.So ... if I understand correctly, most of the other caminos in Spain are not aligned with the Milky Way?
Ok, Milky Way it is then ☺. I've just discovered an image, and I've never seen it presented like this before. Every 50 minutes, the photographer took a photo of the night sky over the course of 10 hours and then stacked the pictures on top of each other. You see the position of the Milky Way at these 50 minutes intervals in the night sky, the way you would see the position of the Milky Way if you stayed outside and watched it throughout the night. The photos were taken in Australia but the principle is the same everywhere. Enjoy and draw your own conclusions.Interesting. I lived on the Sahara Desert for 2 years and the Milky Way was aligned right over my village.
@timr I was told this in person by two pilgrim office volunteers last November and shown a copy of the most recent version of the cathedral's Credencial which stated this rule. Which was not on the version I had received from Ivar just a few weeks earlier so I assume it must have been quite recent. It applies to all - not just Galicians. I mentioned them in particular because they are the most likely to find themselves in the odd situation of having to travel away from Santiago in order to receive a Compostela. I think that @t2andreo has suggested that the officially recognised routes are the ones which are named and printed in outline maps on the current version of the credencial.Can you give us chapter and verse where this specifically is quoted: 'a recognised Camino route'?
Is there a list of such recognised Camino routes? Recognised by whom ? And must all people, as well as Galicians living within 100km, use a recognised route to reach SdC? It will bring me back to another point.....but only if we can find the quote.
That’s odd, it’s over this part of the world tooInteresting. I lived on the Sahara Desert for 2 years and the Milky Way was aligned right over my village.
I was under the impression that one’s journey began from their starting point, be that their own front door or from a renowned/adopted start point, in this case, Saint Jean?Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
That is his first option. But if you skip forward a few pages he also gives SJPDP as his second option and then further complicates matters by offering both the Route Napoleon and Valcarlos routes as possibilitiesOffered simply FYI: The sainted Fr. Elias started his 1984 El Camino de Santiago: Guia del Peregrino at the Somport Pass.
That is his first option. But if you skip forward a few pages he also gives SJPDP as his second option and then further complicates matters by offering both the Route Napoleon and Valcarlos routes as possibilitiesI used that 1984 Valina guide for my first two Caminos. The first journey using a copy bought by my mother-in-law on her own 1985 camino and which she had signed by Don Elias when her group met him in O Cebreiro. Sadly my own journey took me there a few months too late to meet him myself.
I find this rule really strange. What does "deberán" actually mean? I've not yet progressed to this tense/verb form. "Must"? "Ought to"?I was told this in person by two pilgrim office volunteers last November and shown a copy of the most recent version of the cathedral's Credencial which stated this rule.
I do not have the grammar knowledge to answer myself but Google Translate renders the sentence as "The last 100 kilometres must be carried out by any of the routes recognised as official by the S.A.M.I Cathedral of Santiago" so it seems to be some sort of imperative. Certainly what I was told by the pilgrim office was that it is now a mandatory condition for receiving a Compostela and not merely a recommendation.I find this rule really strange. What does "deberán" actually mean? I've not yet progressed to this tense/verb form. "Must"? "Ought to"?
@Bradypus Thanks! This brings me back to a question I have raised before. And again I hope Tom @t2andreo may help. My question is this. Is the route from Lugo through Friol to Sobrado dos Monxes, linking the Primitivo to the Norte, "official"? And is it "recognised by the SAMI"?@timr I was told this in person by two pilgrim office volunteers last November and shown a copy of the most recent version of the cathedral's Credencial which stated this rule. Which was not on the version I had received from Ivar just a few weeks earlier so I assume it must have been quite recent. It applies to all - not just Galicians. I mentioned them in particular because they are the most likely to find themselves in the odd situation of having to travel away from Santiago in order to receive a Compostela. I think that @t2andreo has suggested that the officially recognised routes are the ones which are named and printed in outline maps on the current version of the credencial.
View attachment 64727
PS. No mention of this rule on the pilgrim office website and they still show an earlier image of the credencial without this rule. But as they still do not give a full translation of the latest Compostela to include the "new" second paragraph concerning minimum distances on foot and by bike - some years after the introduction of the pretty new version - I would not hold my breath while waiting for an update.
Me too. If the Compostela is meant to testify that the named person has arrived "from anywhere on the Orb of the Earth with an attitude of devotion or because of a vow or promise" and has then "devotedly visited this most sacred temple with Christian sentiment (pietatis causa)" (from the Pilgrim Office's own translation) why should it also be necessary to have done so by walking 100km on one of a limited number of approved routes? For me that appears to be strong evidence that the cathedral have now endorsed the notion that it is the physical characteristics of the journey itself which defines a walk as a pilgrimage and not the religious or spiritual intentions of the walker which are no longer of any real interest to the pilgrim office.I find it extraordinary that one has to walk on a particular path.
there's nothing really special or "magical" about say SJPP or Le Puy (though both places are very beautiful certainly), it's just that those places belong to a particular network of Camino infrastructures that happen to be both practical and reassuring in multiple interconnected ways.
My saunter/trek over the Pyrenees was a magical beginning to a life changing pilgrimage. I would not change it for the world.
When I see a post that infers that the poster considers a 'full camino' to originate in SJPP, I am tempted to set caps lock on and reply 'you don't get it', but in a new measure of my temperance, I have avoided that to date.I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Like @Bradypus, I couldn't find such a restriction on the Pilgrim Office English language pages, and could not find any requirement there to walk on a 'recognised route', and my 2016 credential doesn't contain the restriction that appears to be in the newer version.But my question remains, if there is a requirement that one walks on a route that is recognised by the SAMI is there a list of such routes?
Many people start at SJPP, and many do not. Those that do, probably do because of the movie THE WAY, or because many of the guidebooks start there. But it begs the question, why not? For those that like a challenge, iris certainly a long difficult trek. It is also very beautiful walking through the clouds and looking down to see the town and the valley below. Going through SJPP a historic, quaint village is worth the start, and Orisson is also very nice. As many on this thread state, you could start anywhere, but I m glad I started at SJPP. It was one of the most difficult days on the camino, but also, one of the most rewarding feel sorry for those that start at Sarria, they have no idea what they have truly missed. Buen Camino!Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
I find this rule really strange. What does "deberán" actually mean? I've not yet progressed to this tense/verb form. "Must"? "Ought to"?
Fair point but don't they all come under the philosophical idea of body, mind and soul or physical, emotional and spiritual
I find this rule really strange. What does "deberán" actually mean? I've not yet progressed to this tense/verb form. "Must"? "Ought to"?
SJPP has a vibe that's different to the other small French towns in the area
The narrative of four pilgrimage roads leading from France to Spain is based on a 12th century account that was unknown throughout the centuries and became only known to a larger audience in the 1930s when it was translated from the Latin into French and the scholar/translator gave it a captivating title. Now this narrative gets repeated over and over again. The trail of the long distance hiking trail from Le Puy to SJPP was created in the late 20th century by a French hiking association and they gave it a captivating name. It's not based on a historical route and nobody knows where that bishop actually travelled. This contemporary narrative goes so far that we can even read in this thread that there are four mountain passes in the Pyrenees and you have to take one of these four when you cross from France to Spain. While there are dozens of other Pyrenees mountain passes and medieval people including pilgrims and other travellers used them.I was taking my cue from Frederik Gros’ ‘Philosophy of Walking’. He talks about the establishment already in the Middle Ages of 4 main (and many subsidiary) routes from France - starting from Le Puy or Vezelay or Tours or Toulouse. Don’t 3 of these meet in Puente Le Reina?
There's one born every minute. That's why they can charge it!OMG! Off topic a bit but I did a google search on Old National Geographic Articles Camino Santiago and this is where I landed. 10 days for $6,395 !!! Holy crap!
Spain Pilgrimage: Walking El Camino de Santiago 2020 | National Geographic Expeditions
0 Days / 0 Nightswww.nationalgeographic.com
Nowadays, and seen from "our" vantage point (non-English speaking Continental Europe ☺), SJPP is not only a starting point, it is also an end point: the natural end point of the road from Tours/Paris which is a major traditional road from France to Spain and the natural end point of the modern and very popular long-distance path from Le Puy that has been stylised or fashioned into a "camino de Santiago".
There have been discussions of these trips on the forum before. The average daily price of $600 during a trip of 8-11 days is roughly the same for these kind of US operators: REI, New York Times, Smithsonian and National Geographic for example.There's one born every minute. That's why they can charge it!
Interesting! Do you remember the source for your thinking that CF in Spain is special because it was ‘driven’ by pilgrims??Now that I think about it but it's more gut feeling and speculation than based on reliable source material, I think there is another thing that sets the Camino Frances apart from other roads: medieval pilgrimage roads were basically trade roads, they were based on and grew with long distance trade and commerce, whether they were former Roman roads or not. Remember that the Romans had never occupied all of Europe so they didn't build roads everywhere.
The Camino Frances in Spain, however, was driven to a large extent by pilgrim influx and of course, by related trade and other trade. But the pilgrimage was apparently a larger factor than elsewhere. Bridges were built and roads were maintained for the pilgrims; we know this from medieval sources and you can read about it on large displays along the CF.
When I looked at the sometimes quite big churches with their rich ornament in small pueblos (not the large cathedrals), I wondered where the money had come from to build them. Obviously from donations but that money had to come from somewhere, too. I vaguely remember a small pueblo on the CF where both the guidebook and the street names indicated that they did trade with Flanders I think but I would have to look this up and in any case I don't know whether by that time commercial maritime shipping had already developed to be viable for trade with the north of Europe or whether they had their goods heaved over the Pyrenees ... in any case, during the golden age of pilgrimage to Santiago, pilgrimage must have been an important economic factor. And it made the CF special.
Stage Zero is none of the above.Fair point but don't they all come under the philosophical idea of body, mind and soul or physical, emotional and spiritual
So no, actually, they don't -- some of them are geographic/practical/learning how, others cultural, others social, and so on.
I'm not saying that those three stages that are often talked about on the relatively short Camino Francès as started from at SJPP aren't a good general presentation of the sorts of common experiences that many pilgrims have, because they are.
But :
There are more things in this Camino de Santiago, Horatio, than are dreamt on in your philosophy ...
Ignorance is bliss and why let a little truth get in the Way of a good story
Three words:
Body
Mind
Soul
Well as @VNwalking highlights a fourth
Ignorance
At the pilgrim office in Santiago I met a Spanish volunteer who provided me with an A4 page presenting an illustration of what he described as his theory of the Camino in his 50 years walking it, before, during and for the 40 days after. He asked me to not hand out or share the actual document but the main core message is one than you hear often. That the walk taken as a whole is broken into 3 stages, the body (physical), mind (emotional) and spirit (soul)
Not my words but as I said why let the truth get in the way...
I know nothing...it was my hampster Mr Fawlty'
Ignorance is bliss and why let a little truth get in the Way of a good story
At the pilgrim office in Santiago I met a Spanish volunteer who provided me with an A4 page presenting an illustration of what he described as his theory of the Camino in his 50 years walking it, before, during and for the 40 days after. He asked me to not hand out or share the actual document but the main core message is one than you hear often. That the walk taken as a whole is broken into 3 stages, the body (physical), mind (emotional) and spirit (soul) and its path is aligned with our Milky Way from Ronsevalles to Finisterre hence the universal energy, lay lines and abundance of 'thin place' usually located at top of hills.
So ... if I understand correctly, most of the other caminos in Spain are not aligned with the Milky Way?
The finest view I have ever had of the Milky Way was a few weeks ago in a national park in the Northern Territory in Australia. An astonishing sight which appeared to be directly overhead. Who knew that I was on the precise line of the Camino Frances?
I learnt only very recently that up to about the time of Galileo people didn't know that the Milky Way consists of stars. So if Charlemagne was shown a path of stars by Saint James in 800 and something, it cannot have been the Milky Way, can it?
Not my words but as I said why let the truth get in the way.... although after walking Francè I walked back from Porto and didn't have same effect on me. Isn't the pyramids aligned with our constellation, maybe it's something similar with that particular route, 'I know nothing..
Hmm, I travelled in the Northern Territory recently too, and agree that the Milky Way is a magnificent sight. I fear, though, that if you had tried to use it to lead you to Santiago, you would have discovered why so many early European explorers perished in the Australian outback. I think we would prefer to have you here alive and kicking than looking for your body in the wilds of the Kimberley or Pilbara
Tonight when I look for the Milky Way, being in the US, should I follow it to Santiago going west or east... oh, wait, either way, I fall into an ocean since I can't swim!
The Milky Way is called milky way or similar in other languages because people didn't know and couldn't see that it consists of stars. So their explanation was that it's milk or dust or footprints of souls etc etc.
It did get connected with Saint James but I think again mainly in connection with souls and dying at first, something we don't want to hear so much about in our times. Legend says that Saint James showed a path of stars to Charlemagne, and many people including scholars assume it was the Milky Way because they know little about the history of astronomy. Or even astronomy.
It was a real eye opener when I read about the account of the attack on Charlemagne's soldiers and officers during their return journey from Spain, written by a person who lived then and was close to him. Roland and Roncesvalles? One single line ... A path of stars in the sky?
I lived on the Sahara Desert for 2 years and the Milky Way was aligned right over my village.
That’s odd, it’s over this part of the world too. I stared at it every night lying in my sleeping bag while hiking the Fish River Canyon in Namibia.
You see, this - "seen as the earthly replica of the Milky Way"- is where the Albergue Belairi in SJPP errsIn the “Codex Calixtinus”, the pilgrim’s book from the 12th Century (> alongside), the Camino is seen as the earthly replica of the Milky Way. According to the book, Charlemagne one night saw “a road of stars.
Ignorance is bliss and why let a little truth get in the Way of a good story
But when I see stuff like this from people it makes me very suspicious about the rest of what they say, the ley lines, the pilgrimage road used by druids from Stonehenge to Finisterre, the whole sun stuff ... all this from a time where we don't even have written testimony!
On this subject - as on so many others - he wisely and definitively opined ‘that would be an ecumenical matter’.
Personally, I agree with you. The Camino can start anywhere. If one is talking the Camino Frances, the four routes join near Puente la Reina. If one wants to describe the Camino Frances as the union of the three French routes that are not the Aragones, then it would start at Ostabat, about 20 km before SJPP. Otherwise, what route is that 20 km on? And, of course, the half way marker on the Camino Frances just before Sahagun marks half way from Roncesvalles, indicating that as the starting point of the Camino. None of these places is SJPP.Members will be aware that I am neither a contrarian nor a provocateur but that I do like, now and again, to ask questions a little beyond which is the best bar to discuss the best sleeping bag in.
So, as I viewed a thread started by a new member who is flying into Madrid and probably training it to Pamplona asking how to get from there to a small provincial French town in the western foothills of the Pyrenees, I wondered, again, why do people think that the Camino starts in St Jean pied de Porte?
Our new member could start walking to the shrine of Santiago from Pamplona, as many do. They could, if they were determined to travel away from Santiago before walking to Santiago, have made their way to historic Roncesvalles. They could, if they wanted to, head for Somport or Irun or even Barcelona but everyone wants to get to StJpdP and then leave it the following morning via a potentially crippling walk up and over a thumping great hill for no other reason that I can discern than "that its there" (Mallory, I forgive you) or because that is where their guide book starts.
With all due respects to @Monasp and the good folk of the Bureau des pèlerins de Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. Why?
@Tincatinker, we have to express our gratitude to you for inviting us to this open discussion. Somewhat unexpectedly, it was very entertaining and turned into a bit of a treasure trove. I see some things clearer than ever before and that gives me always a good feeling. And you gave us even a little puzzle as a bonus. The Tolpuddle Martyrs, right? I had never heard of them before nor of the river but then everywhere west of Salisbury is terra incognita for me.I wish to express my gratitude to every member who has contributed to this discussion.
I think its touched on in the thread Dave. The more easterly route from Arles, possibly taken by Pilgrims from southern & eastern Europe(?) via Pau & Oloron & evolving into the Aragones..Where does Somport fit as a starting point in the history of the Frances?
I think its touched on in the thread Dave. The more easterly route from Arles, possibly taken by Pilgrims from southern & eastern Europe(?) via Pau & Oloron & evolving into the Aragones..
Edit: Bradypus got there while I was typing. And that really is my last for a bit. Buen caminos amigos.
According to Valina in his 1984 guide it was the preferred route for pilgrims travelling from Arles, Saint-Gilles, Montpellier and Toulouse. They would then merge with pilgrims from Roncesvalles at Puente la Reina.
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The Wikipedia article on Somport points out that there was a Roman road over the pass so it would have been a fairly early route in any case. The article also suggests that Somport may have been preferred over the SJPDP-Roncesvalles crossing to avoid Basque and Navarran bandits who were not suppressed until the 12th century. No evidence cited to support that idea though.Somewhere I developed the notion that Somport access was the older of the two.
There's a lot of detail there; it's quite an amazing resource.And then there is this very cool map, which shows the even older roads.
Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire A bunch of proto-caminos jump out when you zoom in on Spain.
I went and looked at some of my older guidebooks to see. I have three from the 80s. We have already discussed Don Elias' guidebook and how it starts with Somport and the route from there before proceeding to the other route and SJPP.Where does Somport fit as a starting point in the history of the Frances?
Thank you, David.I went and looked at some of my older guidebooks to see. I have three from the 80s. We have already discussed Don Elias' guidebook and how it starts with Somport and the route from there before proceeding to the other route and SJPP.
I have two other books from the 80s. One is the English edition of a guide by Eusebio Goicoechea Arrondo. The version I have is the fourth edition from 1988. It starts its discussion of the French Route with the Navarre Route starting in Ostabat. After Pamplona it loops back to the Tolosana route which it picks up in Somport.
The other book I have from the 80s is the English translation of a French book by George's Bernés published by Robertson McCarta. It starts in SJPP and leaves the Camino Aragonés to an appendix. It doesn't go into much detail but it does list stages starting in Somport.
Of course, we can go back to the first guidebook, the Codex Calixtinus. Book 5 is the guidebook. It starts with chapter one which discusses the four major routes. Chapter two is where he starts breaking it down into days' journeys. This chapter begins (in the English translation of the Melczer edition): "From the Somport to Puente la Reina there are three short days' journeys...", which gives primacy to Somport as the place from which to detail journeys and, incidentally, leads me to believe he is expecting his readers will be riding rather than walking. Incidentally, he starts detailing the other route from Saint Michel, a village near SJPP, rather than from SJPP or from Ostabat.
That's as much as I know of the history of Somport as a starting point, at least as far as guidebooks go.
I think if you look again you'll see that the lines don't connect to St Jean le Veaux and Roncesvalles either. What that means...no idea. But they do also call out the Col du Somport pass as being used from 300-640. This is really a great map; I've been immersed for a few hours!If you zoom in on the map of Roman roads that I posted (up there somewhere in this thread), it's pretty clear that the route through where Roncesvalles is now was already an established route then - but not the more easterly route through Somport. There were smaller ways that went up there from both sides, but no road over the pass (at least if that map is to be believed, and there is no reason to doubt it, given the source. I'd trust it more than Wikipedia...).
Thank you for this thread @Tincatinker , and happy walking!
I really appreciate everyone's contributions too. That YouTube link is gorgeous, @Kathar1na!
Edit: it's here:
There's a lot of detail there; it's quite an amazing resource.
The lines on this map are often only an approximation. You may have noted that both the Somport pass and the Roncesvalles pass are called Summus Pyreneus on this interactive map.I think if you look again you'll see that the lines don't connect to St Jean le Veaux and Roncesvalles either. What that means...no idea. But they do also call out the Col du Somport pass as being used from 300-640. This is really a great map; I've been immersed for a few hours!
Yes. I've noticed they do give a degree of accuracy on the landmarks. Most seem to be relatively accurate to under 100m others to about 2000.The lines on this map are often only an approximation. You may have noted that both the Somport pass and the Roncesvalles pass are called Summus Pyreneus on this interactive map. That's because there is no unanimity about where this Summus Pyreneus actually was. There is a belief that the name Somport is derived from Summus Pyreneus but it's not certain.
I may be wrong, but took the name directly from the map; when you click on the little triangles a page pops up telling you the modern place name and details of what the place was then (town. fort, etc.). I think @Kathar1ina is right - the lines themselves are probably approximations.I think if you look again you'll see that the lines don't connect to St Jean le Veaux and Roncesvalles either.
Oh, this is so interesting @Darby67 , thank you . I was wondering about vines and roads when I was walking the Invierno this summer, as the terraces along the Mino and Sil valleys date back to Roman times. But I assumed the vines in Spain all came with them, rather than being indigenous. Maybe not?Of particular interest to me is the migration of Vitis vinifera (European/Mediterranean grape vines). Varieties such as Carignane (Cariñena, Mazuelo in Rioja), Grenache (Garnacha, Garnatxa) and Mourvedre (Monastrell) and a few other more obscure varietal are most famous in the Rhone they are Spanish varieties. While Mourvedre, from what I remember is a variety that appeared from a near Valencia (Murviedro) the others are from Aragon. Varieties that have been discussed as potentially arriving from the have been our friends Albariño and Mencia. But some recent genetic testing has left these as potentially autochthonous.
Walk the Invierno. You will be gob-smacked. (And there's no controversy where that starts...in Ponferrada!I've yet to wander down to the Mini or Sil...on my list!
I may be wrong, but took the name directly from the map; when you click on the little triangles a page pops up telling you the modern place name and details of what the place was then (town. fort, etc.). I think @Kathar1ina is right - the lines themselves are probably approximations.
Summus in latin according to google translate is high, which I interpret as also meaning or pertaining to summit. I'll be honest that language has always been a challenge to me and I learned more about my own language when I was 'forced' to learn Spanish. So Somport would be a conjunction of Puerto/port in someway. Thank you for another clarification!There is a belief that the name Somport is derived from Summus Pyreneus but it's not certain.
From a catamaran on the Ribeira Sacra. Zoom in to see the incredible patches of vines.@VNwalking, yes I was just admiring the segue.
Grape vines are historically planted from cuttings which yields the same DNA as the mother vine: clones. But as time has marched on, some vines do grow from seed. This would yield an entirely new variety. Cabernet Sauvignon is one of these varietals which came about when Cabernet franc and Sauvignon blanc got busy. So perhaps Mencia and Albariño are related from cuttings brought from the north, I don't recall if the literature dismissed that or not.
The Roman terraces in the Priorato are spectacular if you ever should ever be near Tarragona. I've yet to wander down to the Mini or Sil...on my list!
Walk the Invierno. You will be gob-smacked. (And there's no controversy where that starts...in Ponferrada!)
And when you zoom in on Caledonia, you see my town - Kirkintilloch - on the Antonine Wall. The West Highland Way runs north from Milngavie, close by.And then there is this very cool map, which shows the even older roads.
A bunch of proto-caminos jump out when you zoom in on Spain.
And yes, @Kathar1na - there is much of what is now the Frances.
But also the VdlP, much of the Invierno, and bits and pieces of a bunch of modern caminos.
There is nothing new under the sun.
And yes...there is the way over the pass from what is now SJ le Vieux - but also the route followed by the Baztanes (and no complete road over the Col de Somport.down to Oloron - so, so much for the vintage of that route).
Where does Somport fit as a starting point in the history of the Frances?
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