- Time of past OR future Camino
- Podiensis, Portugues, Primitivo, 6 others
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I'm not sure. I didn't notice any such effect when walking the Camino de Madrid to get the certificate in Sahagun, not when walking towards any of the other certificates he mentions (I came home with 6 certificates after my Camino last summer). God knows "post-Sarria" is the furthest I could imagine from my experience on the Camino de Madrid.I don’t know, adding more certificates to ‘reward’ those on longer pilgrimages could create the opposite effect: certificate ‘hunters’ could just do the minimum required for a certificate in Burgos or Leon or wherever and then it’s possible that those sections could become more like post-Sarria.
I agree stop issuing certificates. If you are a pilgrim and you're doing the journey for a certificate then I think you're doing the pilgrimage for the wrong reason.Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.
I doubt that any single meaning could be given to the concept of pilgrimage, certainly not one cast so narrowly as this. I do agree that one might be a pilgrim with a destination other than SDC in mind. But as we have seen in other recent discussions about this, this is in itself a complex topic.The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine.
There has been sufficient discussion about this, and forum members who report that they are no longer interested in collecting the Compostela, or are not walking to SDC, to suggest this just isn't true.the near obsession with receiving the compostella.
Are they? The Pilgrim Office website says "You can get [the credential] it by requesting it in person at the Pilgrim’s Reception Office or other institutions authorised by the Cathedral of Santiago for their distribution, such as parish churches, Associations of Friends of the Way of St. James, pilgrim hostels, confraternities, etc." Not a single mention of cities, towns etc.I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials
Necessary? No. But I have my compostella framed in my living room, and every time I happen to look at it, it reminds me of all the great experiences I had and wonderful people I met on my camino. Sure, the credencial is a great "souvenir" as well, but not as "framable" as the compostella, so I'm really glad to have oneOr just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary?
There were two that meant a lot to me. The Ignaziano, from Loyola to Manresa, was a much more difficult camino than the Frances. It was not our first and we knew what to expect and how to deal with the challenges. When we finally arrived in Manresa, we found the lady who would provide a certificate and were grilled extensively about what we did. Unlike the QR code and less than a minute at Santiago, this reminded me of what I understood were the kinds of questions that used to be asked in Santiago before the caminos to there went viral.The OP raises a point, which I agree with, since I benefit. Why should Compostela be limited to those who can afford the weeks of time to complete a larger portion of a route?
For me, the Compostela signifies what it says, since I go to Santiago for my soul or the souls of others. As an example, my biological mother's In Vicarie Pro hangs above her ashes, currently located in my sister's house.
What Compostela or the distance certificate mean to others is for them to evaluate, and not my business. I will continue to " collect" Compostela, each time I am blessed enough and can afford the sacrifice to meet the requirements.
Other cities developing certificates would mean nothing at all to me. I'd probably buy a pen, instead.
Buen Camino.
I’m wondering if all our arguments on this topic might be completely skewed on this forum. After all isn’t it a fact that the vast majority of pilgrims who walk the last 100km in order to qualify for the compostela are actually Spanish? That suggests to me that the compostela might have much more significance to them than to other national groups.Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.
I've done rather too many Caminos, but my impression of the Spanish is t hat they liked to travel in groups-- schools, clubs, churches, alumni, gaggles of friends of longstanding, or just a few gathered together. For them perhaps it might be a reminder of that joint friendship exercise, providing another depth of meaning.I’m wondering if all our arguments on this topic might be completely skewed on this forum. After all isn’t it a fact that the vast majority of pilgrims who walk the last 100km in order to qualify for the compostela are actually Spanish? That suggests to me that the compostela might have much more significance to them than to other national groups.
There is no such thing as ‘the Camino authorities’, or rather a bewildering number of stakeholders, organizations and levels of government who all make their own decisions about what and where a Camino is and rarely agree on the time of day let alone a Camino route.As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.
Is there actually such a general obsession?Why is there an obsession with collecting Compostelas and certificates?
Why do so many start in Sarria when they could start further away, like Pamplona or Roncesvalles?
Thank you for the clarification for your previous post.The obsession I'm referring to is the the number of threads in which the rules for collecting a Compostela are referenced or introduced as a caveat for completing a pilgrimage.
And yet, according to @dougfitz you are not entitled to the credential that you treasure.I haven't sought a Compostela or other certificate since 2014 and don't imagine I will do in the future - so it wouldn't matter to me if there were more or fewer, or none - though I can understand that others feel differently. By contrast, like many others, I do treasure my credenciales. They bring back particular memories and they signify 'the journey' which, for me, is more significant than 'the destination'.
And yet ... I'm ok with that.And yet, according to @dougfitz you are not entitled to the credential that you treasure.
I think you will find that I have explained what the Pilgrim Office rules clearly state about the use of the credential. I have also suggested recently, in that context, that you need to make your own moral calculus about that. More, I have clearly stated in that same post that I cannot make that calculus for you.And yet, according to @dougfitz you are not entitled to the credential that you treasure.
Why?As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.
As I have written before, the camino authorities should think about splitting the Camino Frances after Portomarin.
Same idea as the OP’s idea: It is assumed that these proposals - were they implemented - would reduce the number of Camino pilgrims walking at any given time in the most popular sections of the Camino Francés, i.e. they would spread out over several parallel trails or they would be inspired to walk in a different section of the CF or even another Camino de Santiago version as an alternative.Why?
There are already several alternative routes for the final 100km into Santiago. Although they have gained in popularity in recent years numbers walking the Frances after Sarria still continue to grow at a remarkable rate. I am not convinced that providing yet more alternative routes would effectively redistribute the current hordes. That particular route seems deeply embedded in popular perceptions of the Caminos.i.e. they would spread out over several parallel trails or they would be inspired to walk in a different section of the CF or even another Camino de Santiago version as an alternative.
Be warned, perfectly nice people have come close to losing their reason trying.I invite you to try to understand the political and administrative organisation of Spain
Be warned, perfectly nice people have come close to losing their reason trying.
Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.There is no such thing as ‘the Camino authorities’, or rather a bewildering number of stakeholders, organizations and levels of government who all make their own decisions about what and where a Camino is and rarely agree on the time of day let alone a Camino route.
Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
It is not a non issue. Overcrowding in the last 100 km is the biggest issue on the Camino Frances right now. There are several other variants on the Camino Frances, why can't there be one for the last 80 km?I mean this in the kindest way possible but which part of our earlier messages do you not seem to understand?
Why in the names of all gods should the ayuntamiento in Portomarin be bothered with a non issue from one specific member from this forum?
I don't think you have made your case any more than you did in May 2023 when you raised this suggestion. There were many of us who were willing to entertain the idea but when asked for details, you were remarkably unforthcoming. Also, it seemed then that you were the one unwilling to accept the complexities it might entail. I don't think there has been much progress on that count, but if something has changed, please let us know.Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
It is not a non issue. Overcrowding in the last 100 km is the biggest issue on the Camino Frances right now. There are several other variants on the Camino Frances, why can't there be one for the last 80 km?
Rome wasn't built in a day.Ayuntamiento de Portomarín, Lugo, Galicia
Ayuntamiento de Portomarín, Provincia Lugo, Comunidad autónoma Galicia, en la dirección Plaza Condes de Fenosa, código postal 27170. Teléfono del ayuntamiento: 982545070.www.ayuntamiento.es
For all your questions : contactdetails of the ayuntamiento in Portomarin.
Though I doubt your question will be quicly answered seeing they are most probably more busy caring for local schools, seniors, publiic health etc but you never know.
I suspect that if they want to do it, they will do it in their own good time, not when we tell them to.Yeah, and the "Bewildering number of Stakeholders" should think about splitting the Camino Frances at Portomarin. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
We are not telling them anything. We are making a suggestion. And I believe in the power of suggestion. People have to be a lot less cynical. There are over a dozen variants on the Camino Frances already including the Valcarlos variant right at the start.I suspect that if they want to do it, they will do it in their own good time, not when we tell them to.
I'm sure everyone has their own motivation, but the Compostella was rather anticlimactic for me. I'm fact, it is still rolled up in its cardboard tube. What I like to show people is my passport and the many varied stamps. Those are the most important memories for me. But to each their own.I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/
While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.
While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.
Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.
The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.
Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.
I think perhaps the reference was to their being credentials for walking to different cities. I have a credential for the the San Salvador, which is explicitly a pilgrimage to Oviedo and not Santiago, and another credential for the Camino to Finisterre and Muxia, which is a walk away from Santiago. Neither of these needs approval from the Pilgrim's Reception Office or the Cathedral in Santiago and for both of these routes I think the people providing hospitality are aware of where the pilgrims are walking to and not concerned that the destination is not Santiago.Are they? The Pilgrim Office website says "You can get [the credential] it by requesting it in person at the Pilgrim’s Reception Office or other institutions authorised by the Cathedral of Santiago for their distribution, such as parish churches, Associations of Friends of the Way of St. James, pilgrim hostels, confraternities, etc." Not a single mention of cities, towns etc.
Biggest issue for whom? It's a big issue for you, certainly. It wasn't a big issue for me when I passed through that part of the Camino in late July last year. It doesn't seem to be a big issue for the Spanish authorities who continue to promote this sector of tourism and presumably welcome the growth.It is not a non issue. Overcrowding in the last 100 km is the biggest issue on the Camino Frances right now.
I got mine last June and it is still rolled up in the tube. I will come out eventually.I'm sure everyone has their own motivation, but the Compostella was rather anticlimactic for me. I'm fact, it is still rolled up in its cardboard tube. What I like to show people is my passport and the many varied stamps. Those are the most important memories for me. But to each their own.
I would go for (obligatory) participation tattooes.How about 'participation ribbons' for those that need a memento of their walk? I'll admit that on any of my walks that terminated in Santiago I did collect a Compostela, have five of them.
Now that they have lost the personal touch of having your details filled in by hand, I don't think I would bother in the future should I end up in Santiago again.
I'm still saying that...since 2015.I got mine last June and it is still rolled up in the tube. I will come out eventually.
David, thank you for that explanation. I must admit that I had overlooked this possibility. I should have known better, having walked three times in Spain and Portugal with credentials from similar sources.I think perhaps the reference was to their being credentials for walking to different cities. I have a credential for the the San Salvador, which is explicitly a pilgrimage to Oviedo and not Santiago, and another credential for the Camino to Finisterre and Muxia, which is a walk away from Santiago. Neither of these needs approval from the Pilgrim's Reception Office or the Cathedral in Santiago and for both of these routes I think the people providing hospitality are aware of where the pilgrims are walking to and not concerned that the destination is not Santiago.
Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims. What else would be the biggest issue?Biggest issue for whom? It's a big issue for you, certainly. It wasn't a big issue for me when I passed through that part of the Camino in late July last year. It doesn't seem to be a big issue for the Spanish authorities who continue to promote this sector of tourism and presumably welcome the growth.
My thoughts exactly. Nothing to add.Or just stop issuing the Compostela and other certificates altogether? Is an endless succession of pieces of paper really necessary? As the pilgrim office no longer takes any active interest in a pilgrim's motives the Compostela no longer really signifies what the text declares in any case.
I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/
While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.
While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.
Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.
The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.
Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.
I don't bother with a Compostela certificate and I find walking 100 kilometres not to be much of a challenge but I appreciate that for many it is and for a completely selfish reason I would welcome an end to the Compostela certificate as it may discourage many 100k walkers from walking in the first place making the road less crowded especially from those usual bottle necks most longer walkers dred. Before I retired and could only manage a maximum of 7 days on the Camino I was much happier walking sections on each route but have never walked the Sarria to Santiago section as the overcrowding stories always put me off it but I will be walking the entire Francis starting in April but thinking about a detour from Ponferrada and walking the Invierno to Santiago instead of the Sarria route. I have my credentials to remind me and I treasure them far more than a certificate.I'm sure many of you like me have followed the writing of Anton Pombo, who is currently lecturing in the United States. See this interview: https://www.fundacionjacobea.org/en...pombo-a-reflection-on-the-camino-de-santiago/
While so many of us truly believe there is no right or wrong camino, those of us who have walked the camino when it was less traveled also know that there have been profound changes in the camino infrastructure, all for the better, but also the profile of many walkers. In particular, there has been more and more voices concerned about "the last 100 kilometers" and the near obsession with receiving the compostella.
While there has been talk of increasing the required distance to 200 kms, I personally reject that because many working people in particular do not have the time for a longer walk. I suggest the 100 kms requirment be kept to receive a compostella. Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there. Oviedo has a wonderful Salvadorana for those who walk the Salvador. We received that. We also received a certificate at the Shrine of the Virgen Peregrina in Sahagun after completing the Camino Madrid, which joins the Frances there. And then there is the certificate in Muxia.
Those who walk the Portugues know they will received a certificate at the tourist office in Padron. And when we walked the Ignaziano, we received a certificat in Manresa. I suggest that others cities follow suit, including Burgos and Leon, both of which have marvellous cathedrals that are shrines.
The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine. Even Estella, which offers the oldest credencial, has a lovely shrine to the Virgen del Puy. They could also offer a certificate. And Pamplona can offer a certificate for those who walk the Baztan.
Let's be clear: while all roads may lead to Santiago, many who walk only have a week or so to walk. Santiago need not be the only goal.
The forum Camino walkers (future, present and past) are not representative of the Camino Francés walkers as a whole. The majority of those start in Sarria (over 60% in 2023 and currently 65 % for this year).Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims.
I am just curious: What is this clear evidence? I follow developments on and off but I can’t think of what you mean by this clear evidence and a concentration of authority in Madrid.there is clear evidence that Spanish authorities in Madrid are looking closer and closer at the camino since it has become truly big business. There have been moves to concentrate authority which I find troubling, especially regarding local amigos associacianos
I was wondering about that too. The modern Camino Frances in Galicia was embraced very early in its history by the Xunta in Galicia as a tool for promoting what was then a deprived and largely overlooked corner of Spain. Becoming in effect far more of an officially sponsored and deliberately managed project than in other regions along the route. True also for the later routes which have been developed as they pass through Galicia. But the focus of that centralised management has always been in Santiago rather than Madrid.I am just curious: What is this clear evidence? I follow developments on and off but I can’t think of what you mean by this clear evidence and a concentration of authority in Madrid.
Car pilgrims, train pilgrims, plane pilgrims, bus pilgrims, bike pilgrims, horse pilgrims, boat pilgrims who visit such a shrine with religious purpose are pilgrims.The definition of a pilgrimage is a walk to a shrine.
OTOH, after climbing those stairs at the end of the day I felt like I deserved some reward!I would go for (obligatory) participation tattooes.
Having been on the fringe of Camino decision-making, I shudder at the complications involved in changing the point to Portomarin, nor do I think it fair to the good burghers of Portomarin to subject them to the process. Life is short.
Many young Spaniards do exactly that.And perhaps those who start in Sarria, especially Spanish Camino pilgrims, simply enjoy walking for just a week and enjoy walking in green Galicia in the summer months instead of elsewhere in Spain and would do exactly the same without the Compostela award system.
I always glue my Compostela into my credencial.I'm sure everyone has their own motivation, but the Compostella was rather anticlimactic for me. I'm fact, it is still rolled up in its cardboard tube. What I like to show people is my passport and the many varied stamps. Those are the most important memories for me. But to each their own.
Bedbugs?Judging from the number of posts we are getting about the last 100km, it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims. What else would be the biggest issue?
err...my Compostela is significantly larger than my credencial. Any of them. Do they issue a wallet size now? My credenciales (mostly) do sit inside their tubes, as that is safe storage for them. The exception being the first one, which is framed. The profile pic shows what else I have done to have something to look at and remember, also we have the thumb drives with photos that we can view on the TV...I still want to get my Compostela when I achieve Santiago. Especially since this time (last spring) I got injured, had to come home early, and am soon going to return to the path.I always glue my Compostela into my credencial.
They're made of paper and are foldable.err...my Compostela is significantly larger than my credencial. Any of them. Do they issue a wallet size now?
And the larger numbers of pilgrims in the last 100 km get you acclimated back to regular life.Some folks seem very concerned that they have to share the path more at the end of the walk. (The hordes of the collegio groups cross my mind here.) I remind myself, the Camino is not my private property. And it's amusing watching that girl try to jump over her walking pole as she goes.
You're making my point for me. You say many posters say they will never walk there again. If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.The forum Camino walkers (future, present and past) are not representative of the Camino Francés walkers as a whole. The majority of those start in Sarria (over 60% in 2023 and currently 65 % for this year).
Many posters who write about their issue with the Sarria section on this forum started long before Sarria and/or say that they will never walk there again - so no new parallel paths needed for them.
The answer from the Galician authorities appears to be: If you don’t like to walk with many others on the Camino trail then walk at a time of the year when fewer people walk. There are plenty of months of the year to choose from.
In fact, that is what they want to achieve: a de-seasonalisation of the Camino trails that run through the region of Galicia so that albergues and hotels and bars get filled with customers throughout the year and not only during a few months of Camino peak season.
I am sure that this has been pointed out before.
Camino routes are not created - they are recognised, i.e. a route has to have existed as a pilgrimage route at some time in the past and there has to be evidence for this. This evidence must be both documentary, as in the Codex Calixtinus, and physical in the form of buildings such as the bridge in Puente La Reina. So far as I know, there is no route from Portomarín that meets these two criteria.You're making my point for me. You say many posters say they will never walk there again. If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.
Which, however, is a point that may be unknown to or may not matter much to a number of people who walk today - otherwise we would not repeatedly read about “parallel” paths that could be created along the Camino Francés - just like the Valcarlos route that is parallel to the Napoleon route, according to that way of reasoning.Camino routes are not created - they are recognised, i.e. a route has to have existed as a pilgrimage route at some time in the past and there has to be evidence for this
Car pilgrims, train pilgrims, plane pilgrims, bus pilgrims, bike pilgrims, horse pilgrims, boat pilgrims who visit such a shrine with religious purpose are pilgrims.
The Way of Saint James is actually unusual in that foot pilgrims with no conscious nor deliberate
I am a passionate pilgrim who have visited shrines everywhere in the world. Whether Bhuddist shrines in Mongolia, Tibet, Bhutan or Nepal, Hindu shrines in India, Muslim shrines (yes, there are Musim shrines) in Oman, Tunisia, Iraq or Egypt...I have always been welcomed as a pilgrim, despite being a curious traveler and not an adherent to their faiths.Car pilgrims, train pilgrims, plane pilgrims, bus pilgrims, bike pilgrims, horse pilgrims, boat pilgrims who visit such a shrine with religious purpose are pilgrims.
The Way of Saint James is actually unusual in that foot pilgrims with no conscious nor deliberate religious purpose are also recognised as pilgrims.
That really is not true. For several years now, it has been the case that those who live in Portomarín and walk to Santiago are eligible for a Compostela, and similarly for others who live in Galicia in villages and towns distant less than 100K from the Tomb of the Apostle.Camino routes are not created - they are recognised, i.e. a route has to have existed as a pilgrimage route at some time in the past and there has to be evidence for this. This evidence must be both documentary, as in the Codex Calixtinus, and physical in the form of buildings such as the bridge in Puente La Reina. So far as I know, there is no route from Portomarín that meets these two criteria.
I didn't let the crowds on the last 100km bother me, in fact I said to this man from the UK I was walking with that I wish could have experienced a walk like this with my friends when I was in high school. What a good way to bond with fellow classmates. Then I said, I wonder if they think it would be less crowed if there weren't all these foreigners walking the trail.And the larger numbers of pilgrims in the last 100 km get you acclimated back to regular life.
This probably needs a whole new thread, in fact there probably is one, though I failed to find it (and I can almost hear Kathar1na´s laptop warming up as I write).he Xunta made a policy decision that no route shorter than 100K, with a couple of notable historic and already established exceptions, can be recognised by the Authorities as an "official" route
And how, then, does this fix the problem?If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.
Sorry, but what exactly is the issue you are trying to fix? Too many pilgrims? Too few beds? Not even room on the paths? Too much toilet paper on the path? Pilgrims too happy? Other pilgrims too grumpy? Not enough churches open? Luggage transfer too expensive/cheap? Pilgrims with the wrong attitude? All of the above?it is the biggest issue for a number of pilgrims
From what he said in his interview, I am not sure that Anton Pombo would agree with that. He seems to think that the issuing of a certificate (aka the Compostela) has somehow undervalued the camino and distracted from its value as a pilgrimage route. He would probably argue that more places issuing certificates would exacerbate this problem rather than alleviating it.Instead, I suggest that just as more and more cities are issuing credentials, more and more cities should also present certificates to those who arrive there.
I have suggested nothing of the sort, airily or otherwise.to airily suggest that a new camino route can be brought into being merely because us pilgrims would find it convenient
There has been a misunderstanding here, and if it was my fault, I apologise for it. It was absolutely not my intention to say this about you, far from it. I know you take the camino and pilgrimage more seriously than anyone and so far as I am aware you have never suggested such a thing, nor would you.I have suggested nothing of the sort, airily or otherwise.
I think that @dick bird was referring to the post from @isawtman with that particular comment.I have suggested nothing of the sort, airily or otherwise.
There is a alternative Camino, Starting in Ponferrada and it's called the Invierno.You're making my point for me. You say many posters say they will never walk there again. If there is an alternative path, then yes, many people might decide to walk there again.
Thank you for the explanation.There have been suggestions made by others, however, that a new camino could or should be created as if this were an easy thing to do. I think we both know it is neither. It was these suggestions I was trying to counter.
Yes, having an alternative path fixes all those problems. There are already over 10 variants on the Camino Frances. Some examples are Valcarlos, Montejurra, Villovieco, Calzadillo de los Hermanillos, Pradelo and of course the most famous one is Samos/San Xil.And how, then, does this fix the problem?
Sorry, but what exactly is the issue you are trying to fix? Too many pilgrims? Too few beds? Not even room on the paths? Too much toilet paper on the path? Pilgrims too happy? Other pilgrims too grumpy? Not enough churches open? Luggage transfer too expensive/cheap? Pilgrims with the wrong attitude? All of the above?
How will giving out more or fewer compostela-type certificates (the subject of this thread) help?
So, having 11 variants will fix everything?Yes, having an alternative path fixes all those problems. There are already over 10 variants on the Camino Frances.
Having 11 variants will not fix the problems in the last 100 km because none of those variants are in the last 100 km. I suppose they could just ban people who are doing only 100 km from doing the Frances and make them start at one of those other places.So, having 11 variants will fix everything?
The thousands of people who start in Sarria could start in Chantada or Monforte de Lemos on the already-existing Camino de Invierno. Why is adding a separate new route from Sarria a better solution than promoting a different starting point?
But that is all off-topic for this thread, which is about giving out more or fewer compostela-type certificates for some reason.
Forcing people to start somewhere else just because they only want to walk the last 100km. is called discrimination in the modern worldI suppose they could just ban people who are doing only 100 km from doing the Frances and make them start at one of those other places.
There are many facilities and natural areas around the world, including designated hiking trails, where authorities limit the number of people in order to protect the environment. This is OK as long as there is no discrimination based on gender, race, religion, etc.Forcing people to start somewhere else just because they only want to walk the last 100km. is called discrimination in the modern world
Well said! Better still, just print them at home.I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.
My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.
This falls under the category "be careful what you wish for"!In the interview, that triggered this thread, Antón Pombo said:
"The most negative change is clear: overcrowding. We wanted more pilgrims, but not so many
And when we complain about the number of pilgrims we are essentially complaining about the fact that other people are doing the same thing as us in the same place at the same time.This falls under the category "be careful what you wish for"!
Who is ´they´?Having 11 variants will not fix the problems in the last 100 km because none of those variants are in the last 100 km. I suppose they could just ban people who are doing only 100 km from doing the Frances and make them start at one of those other places.
Within the last week the Xunta tourist agency has commented that their aim for tourism and the Caminos is to "deseasonalize" them - encouraging visitors in what are now the quieter periods. An attempt to stop the Caminos from "dying by success". I will be interested to see what concrete forms that aim might take. There are some fairly obvious reasons why numbers are concentrated in six or seven months of the year which are probably not very negotiable! I find the quiet of the winter months well worth the occasional inconveniences of the season but not many share my preferences in that respect.And when we complain about the number of pilgrims we are essentially complaining about the fact that other people are doing the same thing as us in the same place at the same time.
The Compostela and the indulgences associated with the pilgrimage are two different things.I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.
The only reason why distance requirements were introduced is because the number of pilgrims visiting the Tomb of the Apostle became large enough between the 1960s and 1980s that it became impossible for the Cathedral to provide them for everyone who qualified under the old rules.My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.
I don't fail to understand anything. I do admit that it was a fairly extreme suggestion. But they have made some camino altering rules in the past. For instance, at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted and then they established official routes to follow. As others have posted, at some point they made a minimum distance rule. The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to. You could take some other country road that parallels the Camino Frances. All you have to do is get two stamps a day on the Camino Frances. You could do that at the beginning and end of the day.There are many facilities and natural areas around the world, including designated hiking trails, where authorities limit the number of people in order to protect the environment. This is OK as long as there is no discrimination based on gender, race, religion, etc.
However @isawtman fails to understand that the Camino uses public paths and roads where it would be difficult/impossible and inappropriate to control access. Closing off the roads from Sarria is really not an option!
Also, there are several alternate paths for people who wish to walk 100 km to Santiago but avoid the crowded Sarria-Santiago stretch. Promoting these existing options would be a much simpler way to disperse the pilgrims if that is seen to be necessary.
... and you still can.at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted
There is a significant difference between routes officially recognised by the regional Authorities and "you must walk here and nowhere else !!"and then they established official routes to follow.
This is more or less true, under the provision that your route were demonstrably continuous -- and I would personally get 3 or 4 stamps daily in such circumstance, else risk being refused from insufficient evidence.The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to. You could take some other country road that parallels the Camino Frances. All you have to do is get two stamps a day on the Camino Frances. You could do that at the beginning and end of the day.
This seems to be contradicted by the text of the credential, which according to the Pilgrim Office translates as:The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to.
@isawtman, I recall you raising this some time ago in another, earlier, thread on this subject. All you seem to be doing here is re-hashing some discussion points that have already been addressed, and doing little to acknowledge the contributions that others have already made to help you understand what is already possible and has already been done by others.
- The last 100 km must be done by any of the routes recognized as official by the S. A. M. I. Cathedral of Santiago. https://oficinadelperegrino.com/en/pilgrimage/the-credencial/
For instance, at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted and then they established official routes to follow.
The Spanish from the Cathedral, por cualquiera de las rutas reconocidas como oficiales por la S.A.M.I. Catedral de Santiago, is far less restrictive in intent than in the Xunta texts nor the English translations, which are both more legalistic and deceptively "precise".This seems to be contradicted by the text of the credential, which according to the Pilgrim Office translates as:
S.A.M.I. Catedral de Santiago is not the Galician government.I cannot speak for others, but I know I am not interested in walking some theme park creation that lacks the historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government
Sorry, but what exactly is the issue you are trying to fix? Too many pilgrims? Too few beds? Not even room on the paths? Too much toilet paper on the path? Pilgrims too happy? Other pilgrims too grumpy? Not enough churches open? Luggage transfer too expensive/cheap? Pilgrims with the wrong attitude? All of the above?
Yes, having an alternative path fixes all those problems. There are already over 10 variants on the Camino Frances. Some examples are Valcarlos, Montejurra, Villovieco, Calzadillo de los Hermanillos, Pradelo and of course the most famous one is Samos/San Xil.
My understanding is that the Compostela is unrelated to the indulgence (partial or plenary depending on when you complete your pilgrimage). There is no distance requirement, nor walking (or biking or equestrian, etc.) requirement for the indulgence. However, there is a requirement to be Catholic, to visit the cathedral (and perhaps the relics), to confess one's sins and receive absolution and take communion. All my sins have thus not, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, been forgiven.I am a little confused about this story of Compostela.
In the past, I understand it could have a great importance because most of people were believing there is an Heaven, a Hell, a Purgatory, and indulgences was quite important. Since, Einstein have shown that time was not absolute. Therefore, indulgences (which are tight-coupled with time) become difficult to understand...
Nowadays, many christians do not believe that the indulgences are significant. Therefore, Compostela, which was a kind of evidence you deserve an indulgence for having walking toward the apostol, has no more the same meaning.
My suggestion is to deliver a Compostela to any people who ask for it, with no minimum distance, with no conditions: this will avoid people walking the last 100 km of the Camino, just to get a Compostela.
I'm the one who fails to understand. You say "they" have established rules and official routes to follow and one can no longer walk whatever Camino route one wants but must follow the rules. I fail to understand who they are and how they are preventing anyone from walking their choice of Camino.I don't fail to understand anything. I do admit that it was a fairly extreme suggestion. But they have made some camino altering rules in the past. For instance, at one point you could hike the Camino however you wanted and then they established official routes to follow. As others have posted, at some point they made a minimum distance rule. The fact is that you don't have to walk the Camino Frances proper in the last 100 km to get your compestela. You could walk some sort of alternative route if you wanted to. You could take some other country road that parallels the Camino Frances. All you have to do is get two stamps a day on the Camino Frances. You could do that at the beginning and end of the day.
@JabbaPapa, I addressed this last year, and you participated in the discussion. You might remember that I did point out that the Pilgrim Office itself acknowledges that the 'official routes' are those contained in Ley 5/2016 de 4 de mayo, del patrimonio cultural de Galicia, which provides the legal framework for the protection many things including the Camino routes. You will find two threads in which this was discussed here and here.To claim that the pilgrimage were some historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government is, I'm sorry, to misunderstand it entirely.
The Way of Saint James is neither created, nor defined, nor "sanctioned", nor limited by the regional Government of Galicia.
It is the common property of the Church and of every single pilgrim, individually one and each, and all of us together.
You might, perhaps, read the words that I used and from which you have very selectively quoted, because I don't have the time or energy right now to deal with your misconstructions of my posts. I said nothing about any of the things that followed this post, nor did I infer them. More, you completely omit a key phrase which I have highlighted below for your memory.To claim that the pilgrimage were some historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government is, I'm sorry, to misunderstand it entirely.
I don't think further discussion is going to keep us close to the topic. I think that you are being side-tracked in your own misunderstanding of the relationship between the cathedral sanctioned routes and Galician heritage laws.historical significance of the paths recognized and preserved for their cultural value by the Galician government, and which the cathedral authorities have sanctioned for the purpose of awarding a Compostela.
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