what are we to do with thefts from rucksacks committed in albergues

[piogaw]

this is a warning to all present and future peregrinos to be alert and be vigilant while on the camino frances. do not leave valuables like monies, credit or debit card (atm card to our north american friends) documents, etc in your rucksacks. if you have been a victim of theft while in the albergue, try to find out whether they have any cctv surveillance cameras and be firm and insist on looking at it. also insist on the staff at the albergue to call the police and make an official report. if the local police won't do, ask for the guardia civil, the national police.

i want everyone to be aware there is a private albergue in portamarin on the camino de frances route that have foreign peregrinos reporting monies stolen from their rucksacks. there are two threads currently on this forum - one under the camino crime watch in the miscellaneous topics and the other one under the camino frances forum. now many in this forum will question the authenticities of these 2 reports, i would like to inform you that the reports came directly from the victims themselves.

i am not pointing the finger at anyone, but you are all intelligent peregrinos. this is the first time i have outed someone or a hostel because at the end of the day the buck stops at the top. you should all ask yourself, of hundred and hundred of other hostels, why is it only at this albergue that monies have been stolen? i am not being hysterical, just furious.

i rest my case.

 

[dougfitz]

If there is real evidence from people who have been affected, this should be taken to the correct authorities. I don't think this forum should be used to mount a punitive campaign against particular businesses in any circumstances, and certainly not when the evidence is hearsay. @piogaw can claim to have been told a particular story - he cannot make any claim to know of the events themselves other than the story. In other circumstances this would be seen as merely rumour-mongering, and despite any good intent there might be to protect us from ourselves, I don't think we should be engaging in it when it might have such serious consequences for the establishments concerned.

Regards,

 

[piogaw]

i have questioned this couple extensively and i came to the conclusion that they are telling the truth. they stayed in my albergue for 4 days. they are not looking for vendetta. but i feel the peregrino community has a right to know what has been happening at this albergue. the other incident was told in this forum by the victim themself. look back at my posts and draw your own conclusion. i was there in santiago when i was told the theft. this is not a story. you can be a doubting thomas if you want. but if these incidents happened twice in 4 months and has been collaborated by these victims themselves, then what do you considered to be hearsay and rumour-mongering? check my previous posts and see whether i have ever jump to conclusion and cast aspersion on any establishments on the camino.

the jury is out.

 

[SYates]

... you should all ask yourself, of hundred and hundred of other hostels, why is it only at this albergue that monies have been stolen? ...

It is not only this albergue and I find it unfair to single it out. Over the years thefts have happened in many albergues and their surroundings. There are now nearly 200,000 pilgrims each year on the Camino, for this number the crime rate is still comparatively low. The most important thing is to remember to always carry your valuables on your person, even if you just go to the toilet at night. SY

 

[piogaw]

Hello sy,

Thanks for coming back to me. I am sure thefts have been committed in other albergues and their surrounding. However i do not have any first hand knowledge of them being committed. This particular theft was told to me by the victims themselves. Then there is the other victim who communicated the event to the forum. I do not want to be accused of rumour-mongering as suggested by one of the veteran poster.

I am just making other peregrinos aware of what is going on and to be on the alert for this particular hostel. Maybe i am being hard. But working in santiago for 2 1/2 months i have seen peregrinos arrived in my hostel flat broke, and the hospitaleros/hospitaleras chipped in to provide food, even help in getting a bed in our albergue.

If the experienced and veteran peregrinos feel that i am too hard on this establishment. So be it. If the md of this establishment feels free to contact me, i will be happy to talk to him to clear the whole thing up.

Buen camino.

 

[MichaelB10398]

Friends, there is no need for contention among us. The warning is justified as advice for the entire Camino and not only while staying in a single location. The Way is not a place where perfection in others is found and where pilgrims converge, some will think to take advantage of those who might be carrying large sums of money, have expensive equipment, or even expensive clothing. Be wise in your choices; carry as little money as possible during your Camino; keep those things of great value on your person in a money belt or other similar device. Try not to leave those things you value in a spot where they could easily be taken by strangers.

One way of pilgrimage, which also seems the way of most of us, is to walk frugally; to carry as little as possible; now we must be observant of others. The Camino is not a place of thieves; it is a place of humanity and we do have some among who choose badly. They are just like each one of us. The advice of diligence above is valid.

 

[dougfitz]

Warning, I am going to be quite contrarian about this. I think it is just plain wrong to use this forum to level unjustified accusations against others in the way that is happening here.

I am sure thefts have been committed in other albergues and their surrounding. However i do not have any first hand knowledge of them being committed. This particular theft was told to me by the victims themselves.

That doesn't make it first hand knowledge. Unless you were there and actually witnessed the events, you don't have first hand knowledge of anything but a couple of people telling you a story. The story might be true. It might not. You feel it is. I don't know. But what I do know is that in publishing it as if it were true without any attempt to get the perspective from the other side, you are not affording the establishment you are accusing of any natural justice in that matter.

I do not want to be accused of rumour-mongering as suggested by one of the veteran poster.

Do you have the appropriate power or authority to compel witnesses and find the truth? No. So are you the appropriate person to investigate this? No. While to don't have the power and authority to get to the truth, you have no idea what the truth might be, and what you are doing here is rumour-mongering.

I am just making other peregrinos aware of what is going on and to be on the alert for this particular hostel.

If you feel that the security arrangements at this establishment are lax, tell them about your concerns, and they might be willing to address that. That would be a benefit to the whole pilgrim community, not just those of us who participate in this forum.

Maybe i am being hard.

No, you are being unfair. Completely and utterly unfair. You have no first hand knowledge of the events and you haven't given the establishment the opportunity to respond to your accusations before making them publicly. That contravenes the natural justice principles as I understand them. It probably contravenes a number of other established publishing principles as well.

If the md of this establishment feels free to contact me, i will be happy to talk to him to clear the whole thing up.

That was an opportunity you should have provided before you even contemplated making the accusations you have levelled at the establishment both here and elsewhere.

Regards,

 

[vicrev]

Well said Doug........You had better start ducking!!!............................Vicrev

 

[piogaw]

hello doug,

you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine. we agree to disagree. let the other experienced and veteran peregrinos make their point known. i have spent 2 1/2 months this past year working as a volunteer in santiago, i have seen many things that you might not be aware of.

this is not an accusation. if the management of this particular albergue feels i am slandering them, let them take me to court. i will gladly show up as spain is more or less my second home.

 

[peregrina2000]

I found myself in a similar situation as piogaw not too long ago when I got a fair amount of criticism for saying that I thought it was important for pilgrims to be careful on the first stage of the Vdlp anear Guillena. There were a lot of posts chiding me that the Camino was very safe, that I was scaring off pilgrims, that I was basing my posts on one or two reports, that crime is a fact of life, etc. I couldn't seem to make it clear that what I was saying was that pilgrims should not panic, that there was no crime wave, that I was not hysterical, but that I thought that pilgrims walking between Italica and Guillena should pay careful attention.

I think this post is similar to that one, with the difference being that it names a specific establishment, not an open place on the Camino.

Piogaw's posts here, like mine, were not based on first hand experience. What he has done has been to put together two first hand reports of experiences that seem very different than your average random theft in an albergue, at least to anyone who reads them carefully. The timing of the thefts and the circumstances are unusual. In addition, this is an albergue with security cameras, yet the cameras were not working? The local police office doesn't open till 9, true, but there are a number of ways to report a crime when the local office is not working. No one seriously thinks that there is no police service in Spain overnight. Telling pilgrims there is no way to report a crime before 9 is patently false and whoever said that knew that. Spanish pilgrims report that there is a "security guard" patrolling the albergue in the middle of the night. Really?! It seems to me that there is enough that seems "one off" to suggest that it may be risky, especially for non-Spanish speakers, to spend a night in this albergue.
If the norm were that people could only post on the forum what they know from first hand experience, this would be quite a different place. We routinely report hearsay on one thread after another. I think we operate on the assumption that we should be reasonable when we report other's opinions. I wouldn't hesitate to post something like "I didn't stay in X albergue, but I talked to three pilgrims who had stayed there the night before and they loved/hated it."

This is not just wild random hearsay. There is one first hand experience reported on this forum, and piogaw spoke with someone with an identical first hand experience. When you consider the totality of the circumstances, it seems to me that it is reasonable to alert people to these incidents.

I am not suggesting that people ought to hurl accusations without justification, but I don't think that piogaw's post merits the level of criticism it has generated. This is not a criminal trial, though many of dougfitz's suggestions seem to liken it to one. It is merely the opinion of one person that based on his opinion, pilgrims should avoid this particular albergue.

Some of us are trying to get more information, and will post that when we have it. But in the meantime, wouldn't you want to know about this if you were choosing an albergue in Portomarin?

Buen camino, Laurie

 

[piogaw]

Hello laurie,

Thank you very much for expressing your thoughts as a very experienced and veteran peregrinos in regards to this topic.
I also would like to hear more opinion from other experienced peregrinos. What are your thoughts in my speaking out on this topic?

Thank you all.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I spoke with my friend whose family runs a different albergue in Portomarin.
They were horrified as this does not help them or any other albergue owners along the Camino.

She suggested when there is such a theft that you
1) Insist on speaking to the director or owner (if private)
2) Call the police immediately

If it is true that the police station does not open until 9 am, then wait. But I doubt this is true. Police don't just shut down for the night.

Also, facts get turned around or blown out of proportion, like in that "telephone" game we played as children.
My friend knows this place.
She said there are only 4 girls working there in shift and they've worked there for some time (not 25 as reported).

I just can't believe, with the current economy, that someone who had a secure job would risk everything, especially their reputation in such a small village, for a few euros. I could be wrong, but my own family lives in a tiny Azorian village and the whole world knows everyone's business.

I don't know, of course, but I feel this probably was done by a fellow "pilgrim." It is not difficult to get credentials and I've met several homeless people along the Camino who are carrying what appear to be valid credentials, and using the Camino albergues as their bases. It is unfortunate, but a fact of life.

I agree with the person posting that this should be posted so people will be vigilant and smart.
People need to not take anything they can't afford to lose, and they should keep their cash and cards on them AT ALL TIMES.

I also agree that it's not right to single out one place after something like this, especially if the people were not willing to report it to the proper authorities.

I, myself, have been victim of "bad press" by a couple of very difficult people who were angry because my group tour did not meet their expectations.
They blatantly lied on a website about their experience.
They blatantly lied about what was promised and what was received.
All one has to do is go to the website to see they are lying, but people are very quick to judge.
It doesn't feel good.
And it does damage the reputation of a person in sad ways.

Anyway, I think the answer is for the people who were robbed to contact the authorities and the director.
If THEY are not willing, then ::shrug:: -

Lastly, my friend said last year a pilgrim came to them shortly after checking in, all in a frazzle, saying her bag had been stolen.
My friend called the police.
Nobody could find the bag.
Shortly after, it was found behind an open door on the balcony, where the weary pilgrim had dropped it.
Mistakes can happen.

 

[Pieces]

as you say we are intelligent people & the intelligent thing is to ALWAYS keep ones valuables with oneself no matter where in the world one is situated at any particular time. It is really quite simple...

 

[piogaw]

hello annie,

maybe it would be a good idea to clear this thing up, maybe the manager in charge can get in touch with me to clear all this up. you can ask your friend for a personal email address for the manager and then i can deal directly with him. i don't know whether he is aware of what is going on in his hostel. i mentioned the company that owns the place have other businesses and employed up to 25 staff.

i also have been to portomarin on my camino frances, and i think it is a lovely pueblo.

i am not in the business of badmouthing any person or establishment. my previous posts have never castigate or cast aspersion on anyone. i believe very strongly what was reported in two separate occasions have happened. nobody want to cause any problems to anyone, but this one is not going away until i receive some satisfactory answers.

i will be going back to santiago soon. maybe i will go to portomarin for a visit and have a face to face meeting with the md.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hi Piogaw,
This family really can't get involved personally, as they have to live and work in the village themselves.

Perhaps since you know his name, you contact him personally?
Or maybe contact the Friends of the Camino for that stretch?
I don't feel you were badmouthing anyone - my reference was to someone who suggested the village be bypassed altogether, which would be a shame because it's a lovely place.

I understand you believe what happened.. happened, but honestly, if the people weren't willing to stay until 9 am to report it themselves, then I'm not sure what can be done outside of warning folks as we always have to be vigilant.

Anyway, I'll see if I can find the fellow's email, but unless it's on the internet, I don't know what else to do.
Annie

 

[Anniesantiago]

Here you go.
This is their website:
http://www.albergueferramenteiro.com

Perhaps if you wrote a quiet letter asking for the Director's email BEFORE saying why, you'd have some luck?

 

[piogaw]

hello annie,

the young polish couple were on their first camino. they are quite young, college students. they walked from saint jean pied de port. they have been quite innocent and naive. they either did not think to call the police or were discouraged to call the police or they did not want to lost another day on walking the camino. they did mentioned to the staff about the cctv camera. nothing was done maybe because the staff was busy or not interested in what was happening.

all these little events have make me suspicious. maybe it is because i empathized with them having lost 200 euros.

thanks anyway for all the helps. i have edited my thread and removed the name of the md.

 

[november_moon]

I think that as pilgrims (and has human beings living in the world), the best thing we can go is look out for one another. If we notice someone leaving valuables unattended, speak up and let them know that thefts do occur and that they should keep their valuables with them. If we notice someone acting strange or hanging around other people's bags, speak up - we don't have to accuse anyone of theft, but just by interrupting them by starting a conversation, we can stop many thefts of opportunity. Petty thieves want to go unnoticed - if you notice them, they generally stop stealing for the moment. Something as simple as "Hey how's it going - did you move your bunk? I thought you had one across the room." can stop a theft in progress. If everyone is vigilant, it makes it harder for thieves to work and maybe they will move on - look for easier pickins elsewhere.

 

[dougfitz]

Laurie, I agree that I am demanding a very high standard of proof. Why? Because unlike general recommendations suggesting caution, which harm no-one, @piogaw has made quite strong recommendations that would HARM a particular establishment. For example:

BOYCOTT THIS HOSTEL AT ALL COST. Enter at your own risk.

or a whole town

bypass portomarin and go to the next town.

@piogaw has set himself up as investigator, judge and jury, determined guilt and is now asking us to be the executioner. As soon as he did that, he was morally obliged to do two things - determine the truth of the matter, and apply natural justice principles. He did neither.

There are other oddities about how this has been handled. No-one seems to have raised the matter with the appropriate civil authorities or with the management of the establishement. In one post, we are asked to believe they might know because it is a small town.

i am not saying the owner is aware of what is going on, but it is hard for a small pueblo not to know what is going on.

What? Rumours might abound in a small town, but if @piogaw was as concerned as he claims he has gone about this in a most unusual way.

... but i can not let this one go by without kicking up a storm ... i believe someone should contact the guardia civil office in portomarin to make them aware of what is going on.

Well why didn't he? That would have been a more constructive course of action than spreading rumours on this forum. (edit: I see he is not considering contacting the establishment. That is a positive step.)

He states elsewhere that two of the affected pilgrims stayed where he was a hospitalero for four days, but it doesn't appear that they reported the theft either. @CClan may have reported their theft, but that is not clear. It the thefts had been reported, investigated properly and the thefts were continuing, @piogaw might be justified in being irate, and starting to 'kick up a storm'. At present, I don't see where he or anyone else has reported, and I think he is completely unjustified in raising it the way that he has.

Even if his concerns were justified, I still have concerns that about the broader question of whether it is appropriate on this forum to name specific individuals or establishments in any way that would damage their reputation or their business. I don't support it.

The alternative is to make positive recommendations, such as http://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/what-is-the-one-albergue-that-you-would-say-not-to-miss.10443/.

 

[piogaw]

Hello doug,

I am not in spain right now, if i were i would have go to portomarin to see the md. Like i said before, you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine. The only person who can remove these threads is the administrator, ivar. Short of that, this is an open forum for discussion. You also have a tendency to pick out piecemeats of my thread to justify your actions. Yet you are accusing me of being the investigator, judge, jury and executioner. If i am, them what exactly are you. You weren't in santiago when all these incidents happened, and yet you dare to speak like you are an authority from down under. Who give you the authority when you are so ignorant of what is going on in my backyard.

 

[piogaw]

And doug, how dare you speak of the damage to the reputation of this hostel when the incidents happened in the premises of this albergue. If you are not a lawyer practicing in spain, maybe you should make a trip to spain to investigate yourself. You seem to think everybody else is wrong and you are right. Who give you the authority to think you are mightier than anyone else.

 

[dougfitz]

Hello doug,

I am not in spain right now, if i were i would have go to portomarin to see the md. Like i said before, you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine. The only person who can remove these threads is the administrator, ivar. Short of that, this is an open forum for discussion. You also have a tendency to pick out piecemeats of my thread to justify your actions. Yet you are accusing me of being the investigator, judge, jury and executor. If i am, them what exactly are you. You weren't in santiago when all these incidents happened, and yet you dare to speak like you are an authority from down under. Who give you the authority when you are so ignorant of what is going on in my backyard.

My action is to ask that we be fair to any individual or business. If you think you have been, that certainly hasn't been evident from your posts. Indeed, your posts indicate quite clearly that you haven't been. I don't have to be in Santiago to assess that.

The issue is not the thefts. The issue is how you have discussed that on this forum. That discussion is taking place on the web, where it is quite clear across the world and your contributions are public to everyone who wants to read them.

My only authority is whether I have a cogent and convincing argument. As you say, you are at liberty to disagree with me and tell me why, or even ignore me. It won't offend me if you do. But it does offend me to see what I consider to be unfairness, and I will continue to say so, and I will explain why. Which is, after all, all that I have done here.

BTW, I have wondered why you didn't just make a phone call to the establishment and talk to the manager at the time you became concerned, when you were still in Spain. Its good to see that you are now considering making that contact.

Regards,

 

[piogaw]

When the event was revealed to me i was quite tied up in my work.

It is my intention to inform the camino community as to what happened in portomarin. I became furious only after my return to london and found out there was another thread mentioning the theft with similar method. Two thefts happened in 4 months at the same place is no coincidence.

 

[Anniesantiago]

When the event was revealed to me i was quite tied up in my work.

It is my intention to inform the camino community as to what happened in portomarin. I became furious only after my return to london and found out there was another thread mentioning the theft with similar method. Two thefts happened in 4 months at the same place is no coincidence.

Piogaw, I sent you about 4 private messages, trying to figure out how to use the danged thing.
The last one is the one I wanted to send.

Does anyone know how to delete PMs on this new format?
I couldn't figure it out.

 

[piogaw]

Annie,

Thanks for the good advice. I appreciate it. I can take care of myself, not to worry.

God bless.

 

[Thornley]

Annie,

Thanks for the good advice. I appreciate it. I can take care of myself, not to worry.

God bless.

Found out the hard way over many years ;

"""Only your best friends tell you"""""

 

[dougfitz]

Two thefts happened in 4 months at the same place is no coincidence.

You are correct. Two thefts in four months in the same place is no coincidence.

 

[piogaw]

Thank you very much for at least agreeing with me. As i mentioned before, this is really what i am trying to point out to everyone.

I am sorry and my apology if i have hurt your feelings.

God bless.

 

[dougfitz]

Thank you very much for at least agreeing with me. As i mentioned before, this is really what i am trying to point out to everyone.

I am sorry and my apology if i have hurt your feelings.

Oh dear.

My words were carefully chosen. You will find I haven't agreed with you at all.

BTW - your apology is unnecessary, but thank you nonetheless. I assure you that you haven't hurt my feelings, you have offended my sense of fairness.

Regards,

 

[indyrem]

hello doug,

you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine. we agree to disagree. let the other experienced and veteran peregrinos make their point known. i have spent 2 1/2 months this past year working as a volunteer in santiago, i have seen many things that you might not be aware of.

this is not an accusation. if the management of this particular albergue feels i am slandering them, let them take me to court. i will gladly show up as spain is more or less my second home.

I found myself in a similar situation as piogaw not too long ago when I got a fair amount of criticism for saying that I thought it was important for pilgrims to be careful on the first stage of the Vdlp anear Guillena. There were a lot of posts chiding me that the Camino was very safe, that I was scaring off pilgrims, that I was basing my posts on one or two reports, that crime is a fact of life, etc. I couldn't seem to make it clear that what I was saying was that pilgrims should not panic, that there was no crime wave, that I was not hysterical, but that I thought that pilgrims walking between Italica and Guillena should pay careful attention.

I think this post is similar to that one, with the difference being that it names a specific establishment, not an open place on the Camino.

Piogaw's posts here, like mine, were not based on first hand experience. What he has done has been to put together two first hand reports of experiences that seem very different than your average random theft in an albergue, at least to anyone who reads them carefully. The timing of the thefts and the circumstances are unusual. In addition, this is an albergue with security cameras, yet the cameras were not working? The local police office doesn't open till 9, true, but there are a number of ways to report a crime when the local office is not working. No one seriously thinks that there is no police service in Spain overnight. Telling pilgrims there is no way to report a crime before 9 is patently false and whoever said that knew that. Spanish pilgrims report that there is a "security guard" patrolling the albergue in the middle of the night. Really?! It seems to me that there is enough that seems "one off" to suggest that it may be risky, especially for non-Spanish speakers, to spend a night in this albergue.
If the norm were that people could only post on the forum what they know from first hand experience, this would be quite a different place. We routinely report hearsay on one thread after another. I think we operate on the assumption that we should be reasonable when we report other's opinions. I wouldn't hesitate to post something like "I didn't stay in X albergue, but I talked to three pilgrims who had stayed there the night before and they loved/hated it."

This is not just wild random hearsay. There is one first hand experience reported on this forum, and piogaw spoke with someone with an identical first hand experience. When you consider the totality of the circumstances, it seems to me that it is reasonable to alert people to these incidents.

I am not suggesting that people ought to hurl accusations without justification, but I don't think that piogaw's post merits the level of criticism it has generated. This is not a criminal trial, though many of dougfitz's suggestions seem to liken it to one. It is merely the opinion of one person that based on his opinion, pilgrims should avoid this particular albergue.

Some of us are trying to get more information, and will post that when we have it. But in the meantime, wouldn't you want to know about this if you were choosing an albergue in Portomarin?

Buen camino, Laurie

Very well said, Laurie. I agree with you. Be careful out there Peregrinos.
Indyrem

 

[peregrina2000]

I know that there is a diminishing number of people who continue to find this back and forth interesting, but like doug and piogaw I am nothing if not persistent and stubborn. Re-reading all of these posts, I think that both doug and piogaw have staked out positions that are a bit extreme. For me personally, the best resolution lies somewhere in the middle.

I think most reasonable people agree that responsible reporting of hearsay is totally acceptable on this forum. If we were limited to posting things on the forum that we had actually experienced or had actually seen with our own eyes, the information available to pilgrims would be diminished considerably, both in quantity and quality. So I think doug's insistence that piogaw had no business reporting the reported thefts and then combining that report with another first hand report is simply not the majority view. I think most of us would say that this is relevant information and we appreciate knowing it.

But maybe where piogaw's responsible reporting of hearsay information went a bit awry was with his admittedly emotional exhortations like "boycott this hostel at all costs". In retrospect, that does seem like unnecessary shouting.

So if I strip away the chatter at the extremes, what I am left with is very credible evidence that two thefts with very unusual circumstances have occurred in this albergue in the last few months. Before you say things like "oh, theft happens all the time on the camino" or "the camino is very safe, let's not scare people away", I encourage you to READ those reports and see how they are unusual. These reports are different than your average report of your average theft in an albergue, both in the details of the circumstances and how the staff reacted.

I think that with that information, it is up to each of us to decide what to do with it. But for me personally, knowing these facts, I would not stay in this albergue. Maybe subsequent developments will change my mind, but in my own analysis, I think it's enough information to make me go elsewhere at this point. Others may react differently to that information, but our responsibility is to put it out there responsibly, we have no control over how others react to it. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[ivar]

I think we have heard the various opinions on this topic, so I will close the conversation so we can move on to other topics.