As a Protestant...

[Jakke]

What advice would you give to Protestant pilgrims? I am very unwilling to upset Catholic brothers and sisters and fear my inexperience in all things Catholic may do just that. Any advice will be appreciated.

So: "when you go into a church...."
"when you pray..."
Issues that Catholics are sensitive about
This is how a Protestant can make the Camino into an interesting pilgrimage with a Catholic perspective...
etc etc.

Thanks and see you on the Caminho!

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

What advice would you give to Protestant pilgrims? I am very unwilling to upset Catholic brothers and sisters and fear my inexperience in all things Catholic may do just that. Any advice will be appreciated.

So: "when you go into a church...."
"when you pray..."
Issues that Catholics are sensitive about
This is how a Protestant can make the Camino into an interesting pilgrimage with a Catholic perspective...
etc etc.

Thanks and see you on the Caminho!

it will be hard to upset any catholics, even in mass. be respectful and enjoy. all are (usually) welcome on the camino

 

[cher99840]

It's good of you to ask, however your question alone tells this Catholic that the primary "expectation" in our churches will be met. That is that you show respect within the churches and during services if you choose to attend. Oh, and non-Catholics do not receive communion. Other than that, feel free to stand, kneel, etc according to your own comfort level. There are many non-Catholics and non-Christians on the Camino. No worries and Buen Camino.

 

[Tincatinker]

We try to avoid discussion of religious matters on this forum. However, an honest question asked with an open heart deserves a response. Apart from the prohibition on receipt of the eucharist you will be welcomed. This old pagan has always been.

A simple Google search will take you to some definitive information: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sour...otestants take communion in catholic churches

 

[SabsP]

What advice would you give to Protestant pilgrims? I am very unwilling to upset Catholic brothers and sisters and fear my inexperience in all things Catholic may do just that. Any advice will be appreciated.

So: "when you go into a church...."
"when you pray..."
Issues that Catholics are sensitive about
This is how a Protestant can make the Camino into an interesting pilgrimage with a Catholic perspective...
etc etc.

Thanks and see you on the Caminho!

Don't worry . This thread is an interesting one on the subject.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...omments-and-an-observation.37303/#post-359078

And I said it earlier on other occasions : local parishes and the local priests are sometimes much more lenient and openminded than the " headoffice "...no offense intended.

 

[JohnMcM]

What advice would you give to Protestant pilgrims? I am very unwilling to upset Catholic brothers and sisters and fear my inexperience in all things Catholic may do just that. Any advice will be appreciated.

So: "when you go into a church...."
"when you pray..."
Issues that Catholics are sensitive about
This is how a Protestant can make the Camino into an interesting pilgrimage with a Catholic perspective...
etc etc.

Thanks and see you on the Caminho!

Jakke,
You are intelligent, sensitive and humane enough to ask your question in the first place.

Stay that way brother and enjoy.

Buen (many-church-visits) Camino

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Sit behind a local little old lady and do what she does! You will be able to tell the Lord's Prayer by its cadence; it is the same in all languages. There is typically a handshake of peace, so when someone turns around toward you toward the end of the service, shake their hand and say "Peace be with you" in some language of your choosing. Donate to the offering bag; it will be mostly coins. In some churches the local priest will enlist pilgrims to read parts of the service in their own language. Participate if you want. Many priests will offer communion to everyone. Make your own choice. The cathedrals seem a bit more formal. When it comes time for communion, you will not be denied, but it is for Catholics!

There is a protestant church in Bayonne. I never saw one in Spain...

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I'm reminded of the story of the retired Yankee sea captain who was asked how he managed in church when he had been away from it so long. He said that he did fine; he just sat in the stern and rose and fell with the tide.

In Carrion de Condes I was in the church when I saw it being readied for mass. I wouldn't have minded staying but then I saw something that indicated that this would be a funereal service so I left. Later I was walking by the church again when the service ended and the casket was being carried out. The priest was in white robes. One of the pallbearers was in one of those tee-shirts that looks like a tuxedo. The point being is that as long as you aren't dressed to sloppy you should fit in.

Communion is not for you though.

I was raised Protestant and I liked the services much more than my Catholic raised wife.

Also, my Spanish is not that great. For part of the services I would try to follow what was being said and for part I would not so I could pretend that it was in Latin.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Many priests will offer communion to everyone. Make your own choice. When it comes time for communion, you will not be denied, but it is for Catholics!

This is a bit confusing.

First off, I don't recall a priest ever welcoming everyone to communion. They will sometimes remind people that comunion is only for catholics, but I think they would have the neck rung if they openly and publicly offered communion to all. And no, you won't be denied, but that's just because the priest has no way of knowing you are not catholic.

Other than that follow along (I still need to learn the Salve Regina) as much as you can or want. No need to worry about pilgrim gear: everyone knows what wére up to and that we carry as little as possible.

 

[november_moon]

You'll find that lots and lots of people walking the Camino aren't Catholic. You'll be in good company. Heck many (myself included) aren't even Christian. It's all good.

 

[timr]

And I said it earlier on other occasions : local parishes and the local priests are sometimes much more lenient and openminded than the " headoffice "...no offense intended.

@SabineP
I am a Catholic priest.
I like that!
Absolutely no offence taken.
Spain is not my country, but I would say @Jakke , go to everything you feel called to. I went to, and concelebrated [ie joined the priest on the altar], Mass, at all sorts of places along several Caminos, and never saw any attempt at discrimination. Be discreet. The only place I ever hear, every time, a very specific statement about who may receive is in the Cathedral in Santiago. I cannot argue with what is said, but it is uncomfortable to hear it at times as is it sounds somewhat unChristian. I won't say more. The mods (hello @Tincatinker) (rightly) are VERY sensitive to this kind of discussion.
Buen Camino Jakke. It looks like you are planning Primitivo - I loved it in May.

 

[HikeTall]

How do you think I feel? I plan to walk the Camino, and I'm an Atheist. Ha Ha! But Seriously tho, I wouldn't worry. Although the Camino has a strong Christian history, it is walked now by so many people of varying countries & religious backgrounds, that it doesn't matter. Walk your walk. Just act the way you'd act when you travel in any foreign country. Be respectful & open...but be yourself. It'll all go smoothly.

 

[timr]

I'm a protestant as well and while not particularly religious and found real comfort in attending the church services. One of my favorite experiences was while staying at the alberge En El Camino in Boadilla. I attended the services that evening at the 14th century Church of Santa Maria in this small farming village. The church is a basic no frill farm community church with wooden floor boards, it just felt so genuine after being in so many over the top grand cathedrals. At the end of the service the priest asked pilgrims to come up front. I indicated to the assistant I wasn't catholic but he insisted I go. The priest asked us each where we were from and announced it to the locals. He then gave us a pilgrims blessing and crossed our foreheads and gave me a very welcome and comforting hand on my head and pat on my shoulder. I really needed it at that point, it was so welcoming and warm.

@FSPotter
Thanks - it is beautiful to hear that. I have stayed in Boadilla twice and along with the (now closed) albergue at Eunate, it is my joint favourite albergue ever. I didn't know there was Mass there. But my experience is that about 3 nights out of 4 along the CF (less on Primitivo and Norte), especially if in a larger village or town, there will be Mass at 7:30pm or 8:00pm and I have never been disappointed by what I found. It is wonderful to hear of local priests who make that kind of effort to reach out. Just as elsewhere in Europe, there are less and less priests in Spain, but surely the chance to reach out to pilgrims of whatever background or affiliation is not to be missed.

 

[code_monkey_001]

I'm an atheist, raised Catholic. I attended mass a couple of times along the Camino, and felt welcome each time despite not participating in communion. There were other pilgrims at those masses that didn't appear to know when to stand/sit/genuflect/kneel, but I only noticed dirty looks when one pulled out his phone and started texting during the service.

 

[timr]

and felt welcome each time

@code_monkey_001 It is so encouraging to read that! It's not rocket science is it? It is basic!
Interested you walked form Porto in October. I plan to give it a go in November this year. Did you have any weather or accommodation problems in October?

 

[Jakke]

@SabineP
I am a Catholic priest.
I like that!
Absolutely no offence taken.
Spain is not my country, but I would say @Jakke , go to everything you feel called to. I went to, and concelebrated [ie joined the priest on the altar], Mass, at all sorts of places along several Caminos, and never saw any attempt at discrimination. Be discreet. The only place I ever hear, every time, a very specific statement about who may receive is in the Cathedral in Santiago. I cannot argue with what is said, but it is uncomfortable to hear it at times as is it sounds somewhat unChristian. I won't say more. The mods (hello @Tincatinker) (rightly) are VERY sensitive to this kind of discussion.
Buen Camino Jakke. It looks like you are planning Primitivo - I loved it in May.

Thanks! Yes, I did initially plan to do the Primitivo, but then had to change to the CP. I hope to do the Primitivo later. Buen Camino!

 

[Jakke]

I'm an atheist, raised Catholic. I attended mass a couple of times along the Camino, and felt welcome each time despite not participating in communion. There were other pilgrims at those masses that didn't appear to know when to stand/sit/genuflect/kneel, but I only noticed dirty looks when one pulled out his phone and started texting during the service.

good one!

 

[timr]

Sit behind a local little old lady and do what she does!

@falcon269
Excellent advice, which I have often given myself, along with my advice on how to cope with poor liturgy: (1) close your eyes and (2) if that doesn't work, close your ears too. (This also works wonderfully for bad opera productions.)

 

[SYates]

As an Anglican that speaks Spanish and knows the Roman-Catholic church in Spain well, I can assure you that there are no problems for non-Roman Catholics to:

Visit churches.
Pray in churches.
Take part in pilgrim prayers.
Read at mass.
Do/participate in any non-sacramental acts of the church.

The complicated bits are the sacraments, like the Eucharist. I, for myself, have solved this by asking the celebrating priest before the mass if I can/can't take communion and didn't discuss his decision. Most of the time I was allowed and, very occasionally, I was even invited, on special occasions, to administer the chalice with him.

As religious discussions are a touchy (often soon out of hand) subject on this forum, please feel free to PM me with any further questions.

Buen Camino, SY

 

[VNwalking]

A question that I have long wanted to ask and now's my chance.

In some churches the local priest will enlist pilgrims to read parts of the service in their own language.

I am a Catholic priest.
Absolutely no offence taken.

I was asked to participate in the pilgrim's mass at Roncesvalles and was both honored and touched--and would have loved to do it. But I demurred, because I'm not Catholic (or even Christian) and thought that might have caused offence.
So my question is...if there is a next time, should I go ahead and read the lesson?
(Context, @timr...I'm a Buddhist nun and feel a deep kinship with my Catholic brothers and sisters--as well as a sense that the deepest essence both is the much the same in spite of differences in creed and language.)

 

[SYates]

... (I still need to learn the Salve Regina) ...

Here you go, lyrics included ;-)

Buen Camino, SY

 

[SYates]

A question that I have long wanted to ask and now's my chance.

I was asked to participate in the pilgrim's mass at Roncesvalles and was both honored and touched--and would have loved to do it. But I demurred, because I'm not Catholic (or even Christian) and thought that might have caused offence.
So my question is...if there is a next time, should I go ahead and read the lesson?
(Context, @timr...I'm a Buddhist nun and feel a deep kinship with my Catholic brothers and sisters--as well as a sense that the deepest essence both is the much the same in spite of differences in creed and language.)

Reading the lesson! Yes, absolutely! Also receiving the blessing is no problem. The only problem as a participant would be the sacraments. Gosh, you could have asked me that when we met in Santiago! Buen Camino, SY

 

[SYates]

... There is a protestant church in Bayonne. I never saw one in Spain...

There are a few, f.e. http://www.anglicanos.org or evangelical home churches. Numbers are not huge, but they do exist. Buen Camino, SY

 

[timr]

A question that I have long wanted to ask and now's my chance.
I was asked to participate in the pilgrim's mass at Roncesvalles and was both honored and touched--and would have loved to do it. But I demurred, because I'm not Catholic (or even Christian) and thought that might have caused offence.
So my question is...if there is a next time, should I go ahead and read the lesson?
(Context, @timr...I'm a Buddhist nun and feel a deep kinship with my Catholic brothers and sisters--as well as a sense that the deepest essence both is the much the same in spite of differences in creed and language.)

We are treading a tightrope in discussion here now on the forum, and I don't want to irritate the mods.
But I would say absolutely YES if you were invited.
As @SabineP says above
"And I said it earlier on other occasions : local parishes and the local priests are sometimes much more lenient and openminded than the " headoffice "...no offense intended."

But just apply the sensitivity of common sense. The "head office" would say "no"...................
I hope I am being careful not to enter into contentious matters here, but will understand, nonentheless, if mods suppress this.

 

[VNwalking]

Reading the lesson! Yes, absolutely! Also receiving the blessing is no problem.

But I would say absolutely YES if you were invited.

Thank you both!
...And too bad, opportunity lost. I guess I should not have been so shy about that.

Gosh, you could have asked me that when we met in Santiago!

Well, we had many other things to talk about! Next time.

 

[Tincatinker]

We are treading a tightrope in discussion here now on the forum, and I don't want to irritate the mods.

This thread reflects the whole congregation of the Camino and proves that discussion of the sacred does not need to descend into the profane. Mods are usually irritated by stupidity not sincerity.

 

[timr]

This thread reflects the whole congregation of the Camino and proves that discussion of the sacred does not need to descend into the profane. Mods are usually irritated by stupidity not sincerity.

Thanks! @Tincatinker
Oh and just to take the opportunity to say, as we all so often forget to do, a big thanks to all the moderators who keep this forum running smoothly.

 

[Jakke]

As an Anglican that speaks Spanish and knows the Roman-Catholic church in Spain well, I can assure you that there are no problems for non-Roman Catholics to:

Visit churches.
Pray in churches.
Take part in pilgrim prayers.
Read at mass.
Do/participate in any non-sacramental acts of the church.

The complicated bits are the sacraments, like the Eucharist. I, for myself, have solved this by asking the celebrating priest before the mass if I can/can't take communion and didn't discuss his decision. Most of the time I was allowed and, very occasionally, I was even invited, on special occasions, to administer the chalice with him.

As religious discussions are a touchy (often soon out of hand) subject on this forum, please feel free to PM me with any further questions.

Buen Camino, SY

Thanks. I appreciate that.

 

[Icacos]

Not everyone is comfortable kneeling at those times of the Mass when it is customary to do so. If you are uncomfortable doing so, feel free to continue standing - IMHO.

......so when someone turns around toward you toward the end of the service, shake their hand and say "Peace be with you.".....

Reminds me of a German girl friend of mine who, many years ago new to Canada and learning English, laughingly told me that instead of saying, "Peace be with you," she happily said, "Pleased to meet you."

 

[timr]

Not everyone is comfortable kneeling at those times of the Mass when it is customary to do so. If you are uncomfortable doing so, feel free to continue standing - IMHO.

@Icacos
St Ignatius of Loyola, the Basque founder of the Jesuits, said in his Spiritual Exercises:

I will enter upon the meditation, now kneeling, now prostrate upon the ground, now lying face upwards, now seated, now standing, always being intent on seeking what I desire. Hence, two things should be noted

1. If I find what I desire while kneeling, I will not seek to change my position: if prostrate, I will observe the same direction, etc.
   
   
2. I will remain quietly meditating upon the point in which I have found what I desire, without any eagerness to go on till I have been satisfied.

Advice which I think has stood the test of time....

 

[SYates]

@Icacos Also staying seated would be ok. Buen Camino, SY

 

[SYates]

@timr I think we would get along like a house on fire (in a positive sense!) Hope to meet you one day on the Camino! SY

 

[timr]

@timr I think we would get along like a house on fire (in a positive sense!) Hope to meet you one day on the Camino! SY

@SYates
Wouldn't that be lovely!
I plan Baztan for a few days in October and CP in November.....
I will keep you posted!

 

[Felipe]

I'd would like to mention that tolerance and the spirit of pilgrimage goes through beliefs and institutions.
Some years ago I was warmly received in Munich at the "pilgerherberge" of the
Spirituelles Zentrum Saint Martin, established by the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
I was invited to share with the community a morning yoga meditation moment, and after that, a breakfast and a talk with some ot them.
It was a great moment, and could not imagine a better beginning of my pilgrimage.
You can notice a gentle Saint James shell on the metallic mailbox.

 

[Icacos]

@Icacos
St Ignatius of Loyola, the Basque founder of the Jesuits, said in his Spiritual Exercises:

I will enter upon the meditation, now kneeling, now prostrate upon the ground, now lying face upwards, now seated, now standing, always being intent on seeking what I desire. Hence, two things should be noted

1. If I find what I desire while kneeling, I will not seek to change my position: if prostrate, I will observe the same direction, etc.
   
   
2. I will remain quietly meditating upon the point in which I have found what I desire, without any eagerness to go on till I have been satisfied.

Advice which I think has stood the test of time....

Thank you for this; always happy to have these thoughts brought to my attention. When I said, "Not everyone is comfortable kneeling.....," I was not including myself; I was basing it on what some non-Catholics have told me. Also, not every church is equipped with kneelers, and I am finding it is getting increasingly difficult I get down to kneel on the floor, and then get up off the floor.

 

[HikeTall]

One time while traveling thru Taiwan, I ended up in a remote village of Taiwan's indigenous people. Was invited to spend the night, and ended up in one of their religious festive ceremonies. Had NO idea what I was doing...but went along with the flow in good cheer. I didn't worry about offending anyone, and they seemed to get a real kick out of this tall American trying, but failing spectacularly to fit in.

 

[Icacos]

@Icacos Also staying seated would be ok. Buen Camino, SY

Yes, SY, I'm sure you are right, and I did think of this. However, I couldn't think of an instance during Mass when the congregants change from a sitting position to a kneeling position; rather it is from a standing position to a kneeling position and that's why I went with the latter.

 

[Castilian]

There is a protestant church in Bayonne. I never saw one in Spain...

In addition to the Anglican ones you can find on the web linked by @SYates on post number 24, there are also some baptist churches (http://uebe.es), a few Lutheran churches (http://luteranos.net/?page_id=662) and you can also take a look at the web of the Spanish Evangelical Church (www.iee-es.org) to know their locations.

Other than that follow along (I still need to learn the Salve Regina) as much as you can or want.

If you meant the version in Spanish of the Salve Regina, you can find the lyrics on the Wikipedia in Spanish (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salve); it's next to the letter in Latin so that might help you. Regarding the music, I guess you can find it by yourself online. However, be aware there are (local) variants within Spain.

Sometimes, it isn't the Salve Regina in Spanish what is chanted but the Salve, Madre. For more info about it: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salve,_Madre

Other times, specially in the South of Spain, it's chanted the Salve Rociera. For more info about that one take a look at this other thread: www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/el-rocío-pilgrimage.33934

As an Anglican that speaks Spanish and knows the Roman-Catholic church in Spain well, I can assure you that there are no problems for non-Roman Catholics to:

Visit churches.
Pray in churches.
Take part in pilgrim prayers.
Read at mass.
Do/participate in any non-sacramental acts of the church.

I agree but I must note that once on a parish somewhere in Spain (out of a camino de Santiago) I recall the priest announced the dates of the course for readers at mass (on the church) and reminded the parishioners they needed to have made the course to read at mass. OTOH, I recall several priests on several locations just asking who wanted to read at mass...

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The Camino Chaplaincy offers pilgrim Masses every day during summer months at the simple little church at Terradillos de los Templarios.
There are dozens and dozens of pilgrims there who are not Catholic, but everyone is invited to sit up around the altar and participate as much or as little as she likes.
I'm sure we've served several non-Catholics at our communion services. I don't worry too much. God can sort 'em out.
(I help to coordinate the chaplaincy, and I read and do Eucharistic ministry. I am not Catholic, I am Anglican!)

 

[William Garza]

With Respect

Go on in with your heart open and all will be well.
Your heart will tell your feet where to go
Your spirit will follow

I would welcome you as a Brother or Sister at the Door

Leave your worry aside Pilgrim
As all the others you leave by the Way.
Peace

 

[Deacon Jason]

As a Catholic deacon, when I saw the original question I got excited and thought "finally something I know about!" Then I see a priest beat me to the answers...story of my life

Seriously, though, a great and thoughtful discussion. I would add only the following thoughts:

The vast majority of Catholics who take their faith seriously are happy to share the riches of the faith with others and appreciate non-Catholics who are interested in experiencing a little of what we love so much.

We also know that Catholic worship can be confusing to non-Catholics and aren't offended at all when people don't exactly know what to do. In fact, the practices and levels of understanding of individual Catholics can be pretty varied. It's a 'big tent'!

Finally, for those non-Catholic peregrinos that are interested in a better understanding of Catholic worship so as to be able to better experience the Mass, there are a lot of good internet resources that can provide a sense of what it's all about.

For example, the following is a resource originally designed for Catholic school kids, but gives a good 'inside' picture of what the Mass is about and what it means to us:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-mass-explained.html

Grace+Peace

-Jason

P.S. Anyone who has detail questions that are 'out if scope' for the board, feel free to PM me...no such thing as a dumb question!

 

[code_monkey_001]

Interested you walked form Porto in October. I plan to give it a go in November this year. Did you have any weather or accommodation problems in October?

Haven't departed yet, given that October 2016 has yet to arrive . I'll make a note to get back to you on it in a couple of months.

 

[timr]

Haven't departed yet, given that October 2016 has yet to arrive . I'll make a note to get back to you on it in a couple of months.

Ah yes...I see now! Buen Camino for October anyway.

 

[timr]

As a Catholic deacon, when I saw the original question I got excited and thought "finally something I know about!" Then I see a priest beat me to the answers...story of my life

@Deacon Jason
Sorry Jason !
Have a wonderful time in September. I guess you have Spanish? (I don't) - You should be able to proclaim the gospel at the pilgrim Mass in Santiago if so. They are very welcoming. Bring a celebret. And at every Pilgrim Mass (=usually ordinary daily Mass) along the way I was made very welcome to concelebrate and usually asked to do something in English.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

The Camino Chaplaincy offers pilgrim Masses every day during summer months at the simple little church at Terradillos de los Templarios.
There are dozens and dozens of pilgrims there who are not Catholic, but everyone is invited to sit up around the altar and participate as much or as little as she likes.
I'm sure we've served several non-Catholics at our communion services. I don't worry too much. God can sort 'em out.
(I help to coordinate the chaplaincy, and I read and do Eucharistic ministry. I am not Catholic, I am Anglican!)

God can sort 'em out.
Bless you for that comment gentle soul.

This very educational thread portrays the true spirit of the Camino.

 

[oursonpolaire]

This may not apply to those raised as Anglican or European Lutheran, but you might benefit by learning a bit about the iconography of Spanish churches--- that is, the images of saints. Saint Roch with his pilgrim's staff and dog, Santiago himself as pilgrim or the politically-incorrect Moorslayer, the different representations of Our Lady. These images, and especially the retablos, were the teaching tools of the times; as an Australian Assemblies of God youth minister said to me: "They didn't have overhead projectors-- this was the best they could do." While many of the images are on the strong side for many of us, it helps us enter into the world in which they were made.

Others have commented about services, but perhaps I might quote one of my elderly clerical friends who said that participating in services didn't mean always that you had to do something in specific; it can often mean just being there

 

[Deacon Jason]

participating in services didn't mean always that you had to do something in specific; it can often mean just being there

Very true! It is participation of the heart that is the ultimate goal, while 'external' participation is simply an assistance to making that connection.

As someone who was not raised Catholic and found my faith as an adult, at first the questions of when to sit and when to stand were more of a distraction than a help...though they quickly become natural and then meaningful.

 

[james walter purdum iv]

i was a recovering catholic but i enjoyed the daily nightly mass and even more so the pilgrim blessing that followed...we are all one spirit no matter the color of our wings!!

 

[gml]

As the only native-English-speaking pilgrim on the night that I was in Conques (Le Puy route), I was asked to read a passage during the evening service at the beautiful Abbaye Ste-Foy de Conques. Although I have no religious affiliation, I was honoured to be asked and deeply moved by the experience -- and still am, even now, long after. I always attended services on my walks and felt very strongly a sense of communion with fellow pilgrims and with the millions who have travelled those routes through the centuries. It doesn't matter that we are not all believers, or that all believers don't believe the same thing. What matters is that we are all seekers and that we walk with an open heart.

 

[Come2pappy]

What advice would you give to Protestant pilgrims? I am very unwilling to upset Catholic brothers and sisters and fear my inexperience in all things Catholic may do just that. Any advice will be appreciated.

So: "when you go into a church...."
"when you pray..."
Issues that Catholics are sensitive about
This is how a Protestant can make the Camino into an interesting pilgrimage with a Catholic perspective...
etc etc.

Thanks and see you on the Caminho!

Jakke,

I was raised Catholic. My faith led me to search for a more intimate relationship with Christ through various Catholic and Protestant churches. As the Holy Spirit directed me to learn more and more about our Lord, I came to realize that His presence in me was His will, if I would but allow it. With this deeper connection to Him in me, I was able to view the Catholic way of faith from His perspective. I could see the many hearts that He shaped throughout the ages to worship Him via "Catholic" traditions and rituals. And what I came to realize is that He sees the hearts of all believers in Christ and accepts the heartfelt love offerings of all who desire to please Him, obey Him, and seek Him. The "community" with which this occurs He grants me as my free will choice, be it Catholic, Protestant, or any other Christian fellowship.

I will be on the Camino starting in September. With Him in my heart, I am looking forward to seeing how so many have come to love Him throughout history by their contributions and their faith. I look forward to being a part of what the Lord has done and is doing through all those who seek Him with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength. I hope to leave at the door of every building I enter, my will, and seek instead His presence, enjoying fellowship will all those who seek it as well.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Jakke, All denominations are welcomed (I am an Anglican) at the daily pilgrims' Mass in English. It is held in a small side chapel and, thank to Johnny Walker and other dedicated people in Santiago, and visiting priests, this is a friendly, intimate but deeply spiritual gathering to give thanks and receive blessings and, where appropriate, the sacrament. I read in the UK Church Times 2 weeks ago that there are plans for a New York Episcopal church to build/adapt some place in SdC where Anglicans will be able to receive Mass, but this is in the future. Should I be fortunate to be able to walk the Camino again I would make a point of attending the service there but would always attend the English Mass in the Cathedral - it is very special.

 

[VNwalking]

Nothing really to add to your wonderful posts everyone...except that I'm finding this thread very touching.
Thank you.

 

[Sixwheeler]

As a godless heathen I've occasionally sat at the back of the church during services and always found it a spiritual experience and have always been made very welcome. I've also listened to some dreadful sermons.
Ultreïa

 

[jmcarp]

... I only noticed dirty looks when one pulled out his phone and started texting during the service.

They're probably a little (or maybe a lot) more conservative in Spain than here in the U.S., but there are smartphone apps now that have the order of the Mass and the readings for the day, so it's not uncommon to see people using their phones to follow along rather than a printed missal (prayer book). Once people understand what they're doing, and not texting or checking on a football score, it's not that big of a deal. But I personally wouldn't use my phone for that purpose in a church where I thought it might be unacceptable or misunderstood.

But back to the original question regarding non-catholics receiving or not receiving communion, you can either not step forward and stay in your seat, or go forward with your arms crossed over your chest and receive a blessing. However, I'm not sure if the latter is common practice in other parts of the world, so just watch what others are doing.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

Don't worry . This thread is an interesting one on the subject.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...omments-and-an-observation.37303/#post-359078

And I said it earlier on other occasions : local parishes and the local priests are sometimes much more lenient and openminded than the " headoffice "...no offense intended.

 

[julie]

At the time for communion in the pilgrim mass in Le Puy-en-Velay (France), non-Catholics were invited to come forward for a blessing. We were instructed to cross our arms over our chest to signify our status. It was wonderful to be able to take part in this way and I very much valued being included in the proceedings.

I often go to mass when I'm on pilgrimage but would not normally go forward during communion. However, this year I was walking on the Via de la Plata with a Catholic friend and went to mass with her. Once again, I crossed my arms and went forward to receive a blessing. The priest looked me in the eye, gave a little nod and put the wafer in my mouth. I was rather astounded but also felt very humbled. My friend joked that I was now almost a Catholic which was about time given the number of masses I had attended over the years.

To my astonishment, I was again presented with the wafer at communion a few days later. Were the priests unaware of the significance of my crossed arms or is this acceptance of non-Catholics quite commonplace in Spain?

 

[SYates]

... Were the priests unaware of the significance of my crossed arms or is this acceptance of non-Catholics quite commonplace in Spain?

Most likely both, when I (as an Anglican) have asked I was more often then not allowed to receive. The 'crossed arms' are a pretty new 'introduction' that is now, thanks to the Camino, more widely known but it is not something what was traditionally done in Spain.
2001 I was a hospitalera in Navarette and the priest asked me why some pilgrims come forward to receive communion with crossed arms and then not open their mouth so that he can put the host into it. He described it as 'it was trying to feed a bird'.
I think there is/was a bit of 'cross over' of symbols. Many priests interpreted the crossed arms as the wish to receive the host directly in the mouth, without touching it with your own hands, a sign of devotion for many.
Thanks to the Camino the 'crossed arms' are now also seen as a wish for blessing only by some priests (more on the CF I think). It really depends if pilgrim and priest speak the same sign language ...

Buen Camino, SY

 

[Deacon Jason]

Most likely both, when I (as an Anglican) have asked I was more often then not allowed to receive. The 'crossed arms' are a pretty new 'introduction' that is now, thanks to the Camino, more widely known but it is not something what was traditionally done in Spain.
2001 I was a hospitalera in Navarette and the priest asked me why some pilgrims come forward to receive communion with crossed arms and then not open their mouth so that he can put the host into it. He described it as 'it was trying to feed a bird'.
I think there is/was a bit of 'cross over' of symbols. Many priests interpreted the crossed arms as the wish to receive the host directly in the mouth, without touching it with your own hands, a sign of devotion for many.
Thanks to the Camino the 'crossed arms' are now also seen as a wish for blessing only by some priests (more on the CF I think). It really depends if pilgrim and priest speak the same sign language ...

Buen Camino, SY

The arms and blessings are an American thing (maybe an Anglophone thing? ) that is becoming more common elsewhere. Traditionally, people who weren't receiving just stayed in the pew, as everyone gets a blessing in the end.

Confusingly, in parts of Mexico people fold their hands over thier chests (a similar gesture) when they *do* want to receive...so here in California you can get all kinds of mixed signals. It is usually sorted with little harm done.

 

[SYates]

It is also a Church of England sign, only in the CoE people keep there arms simply down/by their sides if they don't want to receive but wish for a blessing. Buen Camino, SY

 

[Deacon Jason]

It is also a Church of England sign, only in the CoE people keep there arms simply down/by their sides if they don't want to receive but wish for a blessing. Buen Camino, SY

All of the small differences are interesting...in a Catholic parish, having your hands by your sides in the communion line is the universal sign for 'I only go to church once or twice a year and am not sure what the heck to do'. A common signal given around Christmas and Easter

 

[SYates]

@Deacon Jason You owe me a new keyboard, I spilled coffee allover it laughing out loud
In the CoE a common occurrence around that time is that the usher gets ignored and everybody just goes up for communion when they feel like it instead 'pew by pew'. One Easter I have been literally run over by a some of them
Buen Camino, SY

 

[Pelegrin]

When I finished this month my C. Ingles I attended the Misa del Peregrino in Santiago. The priest said that for receiving communion being Catholic and being in state of grace was required. I'm a Catholic but because there are so many years that I don´t have confession I didn't have communion because in theory I am not in state of grace.
The Cathedral was nearly full and most people there had communion so to my surprise many people fulfilled both requirements.

 

[Jakke]

As a godless heathen I've occasionally sat at the back of the church during services and always found it a spiritual experience and have always been made very welcome. I've also listened to some dreadful sermons.
Ultreïa

You don't sound that "godless". Thanks!

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Raised in a strict Irish home, an Irish Catholic home and taught in Irish school's, I am also a divorced Catholic who is deeply in love with an incredible beautiful non Catholic. So to now boast of my Catholic faith and how it interacts with each pilgrimage I walk is irrelevant. I believe that my God hears my prayer's where ever I am and regardless of whose church I was to sit in. My prayers are private and consider the church a quite refuge to speak to my God.
I think it's safe to say God is not a Catholic God only.

God is good. Enjoy the churches as incredibly beautiful offerings in the name of our God.

 

[Castilian]

Were the priests unaware of the significance of my crossed arms or is this acceptance of non-Catholics quite commonplace in Spain?

(Most likely), they were unaware of the significance you gave to your crossed arms. That's an unknown practice in Spain so priests are usually unaware of the meaning you give to it except where enough foreigners made it before as to make the priest know what's that about. Given a blessing at communion time might be a de facto accepted practice on some Roman Catholic churches/parishes but Roman Catholic rules don't stipulate blessings at communion time so there's no official way to request them (and that's why priests that didn't see the sign before are unaware of its meaning) and it isn't mandatory to provide them.

OTOH, if you had asked the priest whether you could recieve communion, you may have been allowed to recieve it although it all depends on the priest point(s) of view. I can't comment on how frequently you would be accepted to take communion but @SYates said she was allowed more often than not. I wonder about reality out of the main caminos to Santiago where priests are less used to meet non-Catholics at mass.

Traditionally, people who weren't receiving just stayed in the pew

That's still the tradition in Spain. If you are on the communion queue, that's because you want to take communion. Otherwise, you stay at the pew.

That's the tradition but not everyone follows it so there are some churches on the Camino Francés (and, maybe, somewhere else) where the priest knows about the blessing at communion time, is fine with it, is willing to give it and invites to whoever wants to get it to request it crossing his/her arms when s/he is in front of the communion line but that's still a rare innovation unknown in most of Spain.

The Cathedral was nearly full and most people there had communion so to my surprise many people fulfilled both requirements.

...or didn't care about them.

 

[Jakke]

Raised in a strict Irish home, an Irish Catholic home and taught in Irish school's, I am also a divorced Catholic who is deeply in love with an incredible beautiful non Catholic. So to now boast of my Catholic faith and how it interacts with each pilgrimage I walk is irrelevant. I believe that my God hears my prayer's where ever I am and regardless of whose church I was to sit in. My prayers are private and consider the church a quite refuge to speak to my God.
I think it's safe to say God is not a Catholic God only.

God is good. Enjoy the churches as incredibly beautiful fferings in the name of our God.

Hi Scott. Thanks for your reply. My interest in Catholic spirituality and the camino stems from a.o., a visit to Ireland some years ago. I had a grand time and enjoyed the warm spirit, art, music and hospitality your people showed me. Each responsible church will have to think about what to stress: the ideal or the fact that there will be defeats, difficulties, etc. The Jesus I know will not leave you because you're not perfect. God bless you, brother!

 

[Anemone del Camino]

"The cathedral was nearly full and most people there had communion So to my surprise many people fulfilled both requirements"

" Right, no... They haven't all been to confession, they just want to get what others are given. They want to be part of the catherdral "experience". I certainly can't recall queues in front of the confession booths.

 

[notion900]

Hi Jakke, can I add, on your original question, that wandering in and out is much more acceptable during church services in Spain than in Protestant services I have attended here in the UK. It's not particularly bad to be late for mass. Nor is it frowned on to leave entirely when people start queuing up for communion, if you are not taking it. In the evening mass at Santiago, I have seen people wandering about up the side aisles too, while mass was in progress. Mainly you need to stand up when others do, or that can look rude. But the sitting / kneeling thing is no big deal. Some Spanish people don't kneel in any case.

If you are on the Primitivo, there is a lovely evening mass at Fonsagrada, with an invitation up to the altar for a pilgrim reading and blessing afterwards. You get given a Psalm sheet to take with you. When I was standing on the steps afterwards, an old lady from the congregation came up and pinched my cheek like a child! You can't get much more welcoming than that.

 

[Jakke]

Hi Jakke, can I add, on your original question, that wandering in and out is much more acceptable during church services in Spain than in Protestant services I have attended here in the UK. It's not particularly bad to be late for mass. Nor is it frowned on to leave entirely when people start queuing up for communion, if you are not taking it. In the evening mass at Santiago, I have seen people wandering about up the side aisles too, while mass was in progress. Mainly you need to stand up when others do, or that can look rude. But the sitting / kneeling thing is no big deal. Some Spanish people don't kneel in any case.

If you are on the Primitivo, there is a lovely evening mass at Fonsagrada, with an invitation up to the altar for a pilgrim reading and blessing afterwards. You get given a Psalm sheet to take with you. When I was standing on the steps afterwards, an old lady from the congregation came up and pinched my cheek like a child! You can't get much more welcoming than that.

Thanks! Good to know.

 

[notion900]

It's not hard to follow the service, even if your Spanish is almost nil, because you know the text. I attach a Psalm sheet so you can see how easy it is.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I have to disagree with the statement about how things are more casual in Spanish churches.

Santiago is it's on animal, filled with tourists. This explains the coming and going: people are not really there to attemd a service but for the event, the experience, the butafumeiro. Walk around, arrive late, leave early or in the middle of service is real community masses and you will ne upsetting people.

There are churches that have signs about visit ping not being allowed during a service. And I would come to the conclusion that ks a church does not spell it oit that kt is ok with it.

In fact, even in Santiago people are now reminded over and over again to be quiet, that the cathedral is a temple. People are told not to take pictures during the service, bit all the smart phones come out when the botafumeiro comes out.

Also, why anyone who does not want to receive communion gets up and queues is beyond me. Why? Crossed arms may mean something to tne priest who asks people for this cue, but for others it will mean nothing. Everyone gets blessed in the last minute of the service, no need to ask for a blessing during communion. Two very different things.

Keep in mind that in Spain you can receive communion in the mouth or hand. So standing there will just created confusion.

 

[Albertagirl]

@Jakke
Before I went to Spain for my first camino last year, I learned the Lord's Prayer in Spanish. It is easy to learn and part of all Catholic worship services in which I have participated. Once it becomes familiar to you, you have a way of joining in the worship. I am adding the traditional English version below each line:

Padre nuestro,
Our Father
que estás en el cielo.
Who art in heaven
Santificado sea tu nombre.
Hallowed be Thy name.
Venga a nosotros tu reino.
Thy kingdom come
Hágase tu voluntad en la tierra como en el cielo.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día.
Give us this day our daily bread.
Perdona nuestras ofensas,
And forgive us our trespasses,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden.
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
No nos dejes caer en tentación y líbranos del mal.
Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.

The conclusion is shorter than in the usual Protestant version.
Blessings to you on your pilgrimage.

 

[notion900]

Anemone, I am not talking about tourists wandering about. What I mean is that in a Protestant Church you are absolutely expected to be there on time (early in fact), sitting ready at the beginning, and if you don't stay right to the end, it would be appallingly rude. That's just not the case in Spain. I went to mass in a monastery church in Lugo that was no way a tourist attraction, and they even had a lady who looked after the door so it didn't slam loudly when people came in late or left early.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Anemone, I am not talking about tourists wandering about. What I mean is that in a Protestant Church you are absolutely expected to be there on time (early in fact), sitting ready at the beginning, and if you don't stay right to the end, it would be appallingly rude. That's just not the case in Spain. I went to mass in a monastery church in Lugo that was no way a tourist attraction, and they even had a lady who looked after the door so it didn't slam loudly when people came in late or left early.

Are you sure you were the only tourist in Lugo? I cannot think of a catholic church that would be ok with the coming and going. In fact for your service to "count" you must be there for the reading of the gospel and receive communion. And since communion is practically at the end..., and the reading of the gospel at the start, it doesn't leave much wiggle room for comming and going.

 

[notion900]

I was not a tourist FYI, I was a pilgrim. I speak Spanish and can easily distinguish between tourists, pilgrims and locals. And yes locals and Spanish pilgrims do come in late and sometimes don't stay for communion, but make a quiet exit. And I am talking about what is normal in Spain, not in Catholic churches world wide.

 

[Tincatinker]

Steady Pilgrims. Pax. Please take personal discussions to the P(ersonal) M(essage) function.

This thread has offered opportunities for growth of understanding to many. I would not wish to close it because of a mis-understanding.

 

[notion900]

It amuses me that quite often on this [English speaking, and North American dominated] forum, that 'bad behaviour' is often discussed. Examples of such reprehensible behaviours being... rushing about in big organised groups run by pilgrimage package companies, jumping off and on buses to get stamps and not putting in the effort, being very noisy, only wanting to do the Camino for the certificate, and now, disrupting church services. And very often the unspoken subtext that no-one really wants to put out in the open is that it is SPANISH people that are being annoying! It's the elephant in the room of many discussions, and the moderators don't really want it aired. So sorry, I have to tell you that Spanish people are often late for mass. Probably the Pope would disapprove of the way they nip out before its properly finished if they have to rush off somewhere. But luckily Spanish people are extremely flexible and pragmatic. (The Inquisition finished a long time ago) And at least they turn up! Here in the UK nobody bothers going any more.

 

[Castilian]

Walk around, arrive late, leave early or in the middle of service is real community masses and you will ne upsetting people.

You made a mix of things there that caused a misundersntanding with @notion900 Each one of you is talking about different things. I'll try to explain it all.

Walking around would upset people in any Spanish church. In places like Santiago's Cathedral they may be resigned to it but it doesn't mean there isn't people upset by it.

Arriving a bit late (before the liturgy of the Word) is tolerated and it isn't too rare (i.e.: it happens in many masses that there's people that arrives a bit late). You just need to be quiet and discreet (e.g.: stay at a pew close to the entering door and not go all around the church making noise with your shoes to seat in the most far away pew).
Arriving at the liturgy of the Word might be embarrasing (the later, the more embarrasing) and not everybody is fine with it (i.e.: someone might be upset while others wouldn't be upset).
No one is expected to arrive after the liturgy of the Word except by mistake (e.g.: people that got wrong the starting time of the mass, people that go for other reasons and didn't know there was a mass...).

Leaving at communion time is tolerated and it isn't too rare either (i.e.: it happens in many masses that there's people that leaves at communion time).

If there was some chant right after mass (e.g.: the Salve Regina) or a novena or, in Christmas, the kissing of Child Jesus or.., it's tolerated too to leave when the mass is ended without waiting till the chant or the novena or the kissing of Child Jesus or... is ended. On Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, if you don't leave at communion time, you are expected to leave after the priest left to the sacristy.

Leaving before communion time is unexpected and very odd. If you had to make it for any reason be as discreet as possible to avoid having all the parishioners looking at you.

So, as @Anemone del Camino said, coming and going during service (meaning people come and go whenever they want and/or there's continuily people comming and going) isn't accepted and, as @notion900 said, to arrive (a bit) late and to leave at communion time isn't frowned on (and, as I said above, it isn't too rare).

P.S.: That's the common usage. Personal points of view of some priests may be different what means from time to time you hear at mass priests recalling the importance of attending all the mass (usually on days when too many people arrived late) but that's rare.

 

[Deacon Jason]

You made a mix of things there that caused a misundersntanding with @notion900 Each one of you is talking about different things. I'll try to explain it all.

Castilian,

Thank you for your clarity. What you describe is not too different from the common practice in my little corner of the U.S. In my own parish, while I actively try to ignore who is coming or going (one can never know the reason, etc.), I do notice that what was a 3/4 full church at the entrance procession has often become a full church at the Gospel proclamation. Leaving after communion is not rare either--I have an associate pastor who is currently trying to gently encourage people not to do so...he is frankly not having much luck with it!

 

[JohnnieWalker]

Steady Pilgrims. Pax. Please take personal discussions to the P(ersonal) M(essage) function.

This thread has offered opportunities for growth of understanding to many. I would not wish to close it because of a mis-understanding.

Tinkatinker, since I can distinctly hear the sound of a padlock being prepared I'd like to ask a question about the policy of locking or closing threads. It seems to happen more with discussions about religion than any other. I can understand that moderators want to ensure that discussions are temperate and that users treat each other with respect, but if one or two people overstep the mark why not take it up with them privately and directly rather than closing the entire discussion for everyone else?

 

[notion900]

Thanks so much @Castilian for your explanation. I like the whole flexible system in Spain. I remember being trapped in a service of 9 lessons and 9 carols here once. I thought I would never get out.

 

[Tincatinker]

@JohnnieWalker I'll take a deep breath on that one and try and explain. And this is me, sat in Sussex, doing my bit of moderating - all my chums do it their own way. I'll always try a 'public warning' first: to remind members that we mods are here, doing our best to keep to keep things open, and pleasant. I guess the stuff you don't see is if I delete a post(s), send an 'advisory' PM to the member(s), or issue 'points' (which in this instance don't mean prizes). Sometimes I'll lock a thread because it has drifted so far off the OP that the original question / purpose is lost. Sometimes I'll do it because I feel that a discussion has got over-heated and is likely to lead to the sorts of behaviour that will lead to points (and no prizes).

You are quite right; it is usually the discussions about religion that end up locked - but then we have an out-right ban on football, bullfights and politics. I'd quite like a ban on all discussion of footwear, but that just me.

This thread has been, is, interesting, informative and reflective of the best of this forum. If you heard me messing with a padlock it was just me keeping my desk-top tidy .

 

[ChloeRose]

I'm Jewish and didn't encounter any issues along my 3-month Camino (France and Spain). I stayed in several donativos run by Catholic organizations and never felt uncomfortable. I bowed my head for grace and went to mass with the rest of my pilgrim friends; I engaged in animated (if not tipsy!) conversations with monks in Conques and a Catholic bishop over several days. And I never had to pretend to be anything or want to be anything other than Jewish.

A genuine interest in Catholic practices was much appreciated by every Catholic I met along the way.

Buen Camino!

 

[Deacon Jason]

And I never had to pretend to be anything or want to be anything other than Jewish.

I certainly can't speak for everyone, but for myself I am always very interested in the perspectives of people coming from other faith traditions...though I may not subscribe to their theology, I recognize that each tradition has built up a unique perspective on human nature (often over many millennia) that probably has something very useful to offer me.

Judaism is especially interesting because we share so much history and scripture in common. One of the best talks I've ever been to was a rabbi who analyzed the arguments of Jesus and the Pharisees in Matthew's Gospel through the lens of rabbinical forms of argument that are traditionally learned in the yeshiva. Full of fascinating insights (at least for me as a scripture nerd!)...

Grace+Peace

-Jason

 

[VNwalking]

I'd quite like a ban on all discussion of footwear, but that just me.

Hahahaha...good luck on that one, @Tincatinker!
Thanks for all you do over there, herding us cats and all...............does Little Dog help?

 

[rappahannock_rev]

@JohnnieWalker I'll take a deep breath on that one and try and explain. And this is me, sat in Sussex, doing my bit of moderating - all my chums do it their own way. I'll always try a 'public warning' first: to remind members that we mods are here, doing our best to keep to keep things open, and pleasant. I guess the stuff you don't see is if I delete a post(s), send an 'advisory' PM to the member(s), or issue 'points' (which in this instance don't mean prizes). Sometimes I'll lock a thread because it has drifted so far off the OP that the original question / purpose is lost. Sometimes I'll do it because I feel that a discussion has got over-heated and is likely to lead to the sorts of behaviour that will lead to points (and no prizes).

You are quite right; it is usually the discussions about religion that end up locked - but then we have an out-right ban on football, bullfights and politics. I'd quite like a ban on all discussion of footwear, but that just me.

This thread has been, is, interesting, informative and reflective of the best of this forum. If you heard me messing with a padlock it was just me keeping my desk-top tidy .

The "out right ban" on politics seems to be regrettably elastic! (Grumble, grumble!)

 

[Deacon Jason]

Hahahaha...good luck on that one, @Tincatinker!
Thanks for all you do over there, herding us cats and all...............does Little Dog help?

Once @Tincatinker solves the footwear holy wars, then he can begin to address the rain-wear factionalism and the walking stick partisanship!

Seriously, though also a thank you to Tinca and the other mods...we cats are in at least a loosely structured herd, which makes this forum a joy to read (thankfully, since what else could I do waiting for my departure other than re-pack my backpack for the 101st time!)

 

[oursonpolaire]

Jakke, All denominations are welcomed (I am an Anglican) at the daily pilgrims' Mass in English. It is held in a small side chapel and, thank to Johnny Walker and other dedicated people in Santiago, and visiting priests, this is a friendly, intimate but deeply spiritual gathering to give thanks and receive blessings and, where appropriate, the sacrament. I read in the UK Church Times 2 weeks ago that there are plans for a New York Episcopal church to build/adapt some place in SdC where Anglicans will be able to receive Mass, but this is in the future. Should I be fortunate to be able to walk the Camino again I would make a point of attending the service there but would always attend the English Mass in the Cathedral - it is very special.

Apparently they received a grant from an Episcopalian (US manifestation of Anglicanism) fund to look at this. I read the statement and found it a bit odd, as it claimed that the majority of pilgrims were Protestant (???). AFAIK a chapel at the Cathedral in Santiago is provided for the use of Anglican clergy leading groups of pilgrims and at least two bishops have celebrated there.

 

[William Garza]

We are all..
A lovely Peoples
Full of Loves,Life and Lights

Come from lands afar and tread the dust of ages
Look upon stars long moved, long dead that milenia of Peregrinos before have looked
And wondered

Who came before
Who comes after me

Here
We have that personified

Pigrims who have gone before who see

Those who are leaving
And some..sadly who have left.

Every Race,Creed and backround have all walked the Way

There are no limitations
There are no Religions
There are no Calls

Only the singular..clear voice that says
Come.

With muddy boots and tired brow
Shirts, salty and stained from the road
With troubled gaze look upon Santiagos face and the miles fall away

He called
You went

Nothing matters other than you answered
Everything else is mere detail.

That is what counts i think.

Be Blessed Pilgrim!

For who you are
What you are
And where you are

 

[SabsP]

I understand that it does not matter much whether you sit, kneel or stand. But just out of interest, is there some tacit convention about what is most appropriate if you don't want to kneel during the course of the service? I don't remember where it was but I remember a service where some people knelt down, others sat down and others kept standing and it felt a bit confusing/somehow not right to me.

IMHO what I observe here is that the older generation will sometimes kneel down whereas the youger ones will stand. Some people , mostly those who are physically less able will just sit. Although everyone will stand up when the Gospel is read and when it is the Consecration.

Must say that I also see younger people kneel but they are very devout.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

some people knelt down, others sat down and others kept standing

Lots of people sit when others are kneeling, but I rarely saw anyone standing when others were sitting or kneeling. Similarly, I rarely saw anyone sitting when everyone else was standing. If you move around a lot or talk during mass in the Santiago cathedral, a guard or monk may ask you to stop. No one seems to be bothered by the pilgrim who is quietly visiting the walls and chapels of the cathedral even during mass.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

It amuses me that quite often on this [English speaking, and North American dominated] forum, that 'bad behaviour' is often discussed. ...
And very often the unspoken subtext that no-one really wants to put out in the open is that it is SPANISH people that are being annoying!

It's the elephant in the room of many discussions, and the moderators don't really want it aired. So sorry, I have to tell you that Spanish people are often late for mass. Probably the Pope would disapprove of the way they nip out before its properly finished if they have to rush off somewhere. But luckily Spanish people are extremely flexible and pragmatic. (The Inquisition finished a long time ago) And at least they turn up! .

Sorry to disppoint, but I am Spanish, and the while based in Montreal I do not identify as anglophone, English being the third language I use. So the anglo bias doen't quite work here.

My perpeception of Spain is not that of a tourist, call it a pilgrim or not (it's still a person only in the country as a foreigner being there for a few days with no intention of staying or integrating) even one who speaks the language, or even of an expat living there, but of one whose is of the first generation not born there and whose extended family still lives there, works there, studies there and goes to church there. My experience of Spain goes much further and deaper as I am not looking at "others" but at a reflection of who I am and who my tribe is.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Falcon,

About 10-15 minuts before the service you are now asked to leave the cathedral if you are not there to worship. I saw it done in 2015 and again this year. It's done over the speakers. You will not be chased out with a broom, but the signal is clear: there is a time to worship and a time to visit.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I'm Jewish and didn't encounter any issues along my 3-month Camino (France and Spain).

A genuine interest in Catholic practices was much appreciated by every Catholic I met along the way.

Buen Camino!

I attended a Bat Mitzvah a few months ago and can relate to the confusion as to what a person who does not belong to a particular religion should do or not do. But the members of the Temple were so kind and welcoming that the discomfort was soon less important.

First the kippah, for women. Wear one or not? Then touching the Torah as it was walked through the Temple. As Non Jewish, should you, should youn not? As a woman, should you shloud you not? This was a "progressive" Temple, so rules there were different than in other Temples.

So apparently we were all expected to wear the kippah (we learned during the ceremony) but I'm still not clear on touching the Torah. But we did learn that this is very rare for women to be able to touch it, although many still didn't touch with did so by taking the prayer book to the Torah. The woman sitting next to me used the prayer book, but she is not yet a Bat Mitzvah, perhaps that makes a difference?

Lots to learn about each other. Until I know it all I prefer to err on the side of caution and abstain from touching what is sacred to others. I'm sure no one would have kicked me out of the Temple in anger, but I chose to keep my hands to myself and not appropriate symbols that are not meaningful to me. Got it wrong with the kippah. Still don't know about the Torah.

So much to learn about others.

 

[Castilian]

But just out of interest, is there some tacit convention about what is most appropriate if you don't want to kneel during the course of the service (ie Catholic and in Spain)?

You are expected to kneel just during consecration. If you don't want to kneel, you are expected to stand up what is becoming so usual that kneeling and standing up during consecration are usually equally fine. Sitting during consecreation, if you aren't on a wheelchair or heavily impaired is frowned on. Even people that sit all the mass because they have heavy movility problems make usually the effort to stand up during consecration.

Once you took communion and are back at the pew, you may kneel, stand or sit. All of them can be fine but in the case of standing there are some nuances so if you want to play it safe, I would suggest to sit or kneel or, if you want to stand, see how many people around you is standing. Standing could be confusing if you were among the first ones that took communion (people might think that you are standing because you want to go out of the pew to take communion and if you are in the middle of the pew they'll make space for you to get out to the queue...) so sitting or kneeling would be best in that case. You may see people standing but most likely they aren't back from communion but trying to get to the communion line (or waiting till the line gets shorter to put themselves on the line). OTOH, if you are among the last ones you might just stand once you are back (but apply some common sense; e.g.: if everybody is seated or kneeled and the priest make a long silence time after communion, it may make sense you too sit or kneel...). People that don't take communion is expected to just sit. If you didn't take communion you may stand when the priest introduce the Sacramental bread in the tabernacle (sitting right after) but few people make it nowadays.

People should be pretty uniform during the rest of the mass in standing when they have to stand and sitting when they have to sit so just go with the flow.

My perpeception of Spain is not that of a tourist, call it a pilgrim or not (it's still a person only in the country as a foreigner being there for a few days with no intention of staying or integrating)

Not all pilgrims are foreigners as well as not all tourists are foreigners. There are Spanish pilgrims as well as there Spanish citizens making tourism within Spain.

 

[grayland]

A bit of a point to the interested non-Catholics who are following the often confusing posts regarding standing, sitting and kneeling.

There are many different conventions and traditions even within the local parishes in the U.S., and I assume other countries, concerning kneeling and standing.
Thus, you may see some kneeling and some standing at various times at Mass.
A small local parish will tend to be more uniform due to the fact that most in attendance will be local members.
Catholic visitors from other areas may follow the tradition of their own parish.

Overall....in my experience it is perfectly acceptable to sit any time that others are kneeling. No one will notice or care as far as I have ever been aware.
Standing when others stand is simply a mark of respect and it would be noticed if one stayed seated unless for physical reasons.

Spain seems to me to be very much the same with many non-catholics attending Mass along the Camino and many Catholics from other countries with slightly different traditions in attendance.
Nobody really takes notice.

 

[JohnnieWalker]

A bit of a point to the interested non-Catholics who are following the often confusing posts regarding standing, sitting and kneeling.

There are many different conventions and traditions even within the local parishes in the U.S., and I assume other countries, concerning kneeling and standing.
Thus, you may see some kneeling and some standing at various times at Mass.
A small local parish will tend to be more uniform due to the fact that most in attendance will be local members.
Catholic visitors from other areas may follow the tradition of their own parish.

Overall....in my experience it is perfectly acceptable to sit any time that others are kneeling. No one will notice or care as far as I have ever been aware.
Standing when others stand is simply a mark of respect and it would be noticed if one stayed seated unless for physical reasons.

Spain seems to me to be very much the same with many non-catholics attending Mass along the Camino and many Catholics from other countries with slightly different traditions in attendance.
Nobody really takes notice.

You have it absolutely correct. I've been living and playing the organ at three or four masses per week in Santiago for the best part of 10 years. Because of this thread I took particular note at the three masses of 12 noon yesterday, 12 noon today and 13.00 today in the Church of San Agustin right in the center at the market. It is a very busy church and the congregations are almost entirely Spanish with a smattering of tourists. The convention is that people stand for the introductory prayers when the priest is standing then sit for the readings when the priest sits, then stand for the reading of the Gospel then sit for the sermon. After the sermon the priest invites people to stand to say the creed and then the prayers for others. Then comes the Eucharistic Prayer where often there is a variety of approaches. Some people sit all during the Mass. Most stand to pray (when the priests says "let us pray" ) some stand all the way through the Eucharistic Prayer (including the consecration) whilst some kneel - generally everyone stands for the Lord's Prayer and the sign of peace. No one minds what anyone else does and frankly no one cares. Common sense dictates that unless you are answering your mobile phone or acting very inappropriately no one will object - certainly not the Master! If any one is is overly worried about any of this - simply do what Falcon advised much earlier in the thread - sit behind other people and do what they do. Amen!

 

[SabsP]

You have it absolutely correct. I've been living and playing the organ at three or four masses per week in Santiago for the best part of 10 years. Because of this thread I took particular note at the three masses of 12 noon yesterday, 12 noon today and 13.00 today in the Church of San Agustin right in the center at the market. It is a very busy church and the congregations are almost entirely Spanish with a smattering of tourists. The convention is that people stand for the introductory prayers when the priest is standing then sit for the readings when the priest sits, then stand for the reading of the Gospel then sit for the sermon. After the sermon the priest invites people to stand to say the creed and then the prayers for others. Then comes the Eucharistic Prayer where often there is a variety of approaches. Some people sit all during the Mass. Most stand to pray (when the priests says "let us pray" ) some stand all the way through the Eucharistic Prayer (including the consecration) whilst some kneel - generally everyone stands for the Lord's Prayer and the sign of peace. No one minds what anyone else does and frankly no one cares. Common sense dictates that unless you are answering your mobile phone or acting very inappropriately no one will object - certainly not the Master! If any one is is overly worried about any of this - simply do what Falcon advised much earlier in the thread - sit behind other people and do what they do. Amen!

And may I add too that when I attended the Good Friday Mass at San Agustin I also saw locals entering for some minutes , standing at the back of the church and leaving again . No one of the churchgoers seemed to mind.

 

[Smallest_Sparrow]

When I finished this month my C. Ingles I attended the Misa del Peregrino in Santiago. The priest said that for receiving communion being Catholic and being in state of grace was required. I'm a Catholic but because there are so many years that I don´t have confession I didn't have communion because in theory I am not in state of grace.
The Cathedral was nearly full and most people there had communion so to my surprise many people fulfilled both requirements.

Perhaps many took advantage of the multilingual confessionals ringing the cathedral. N.b.--do NOT take a photo of said confessionals while in use (I saw two clueless tourists almost make a priest leave the confessional to throw them out).

I don't want to disagree with a priest (or the grey area recently created by my favorite Pope), but to explain the Communion issue as was once explained to me, it's not about being divisive or eclusive, it's about beliefs. Beliefs on both sides: for Catholics, the miracle of Transubstantiation. For non-Catholics, taking part in that miracle goes contrary to your own deeply held religious (or for that matter, atheist or agnostic) beliefs. It's not SWAG, so skip Communion and come forward at the end of Mass for a blessing if offered (not during Communion unless instructed, too likely to be confused as wanting Communion). Just my opinion on the safest course of action for someone wanting to be sure to not offend. Skipping Communion will never offend the local priest/parish.

 

[Deacon Jason]

A bit of a point to the interested non-Catholics who are following the often confusing posts regarding standing, sitting and kneeling.

For any non-Catholics out there who are still tuned in as we Catholics (and Anglicans, Lutherans and other liturgical Christians) argue about the right way to do things...

Coming from a non-Catholic background myself and teaching adults who come into the Church from other faith traditions, I imagine that a few common question might have arisen in your mind that you might be reticent to jump into the fray and ask:

1. "Wait, I thought Catholics all did the same things"

If the discussion above highlights anything, it is that Catholic practice isn't as regimented as many non-Catholics imagine it is. That being said, things are common enough that I can walk into any church around the world and participate...and enjoy the odd variations between countries, regions and even individual parishes.

2. "What is the point of all of the posture stuff anyway? Isn't it complicated and distracting?"

In practice, it is not complicated at all. It is only when we sit down to talk about it over the beverage of our choice that we make it sound more arcane than it really is.

Think of it in terms of dancing. Certain dances have certain steps...say a waltz, for example. Yet if you see a waltz in different places it will look different. Everyone has a different style--sometimes varying by culture, but often by individual. Yet the framework is the same.

And just like dancing, once you learn the steps they become ingrained and you don't think about the foot movements anymore...you concentrate on dancing the dance.

Whats the point of it? The individual postures have meaning in the context of the Liturgy. Standing indicates attention, participation and collective action (think 'a unit of soldiers'). So, we stand when we pray together and when we receive the words of the Gospel (our 'orders'). Sitting indicates listening and receptivity...we sit during the other readings and during the sermon as learners. Kneeling is a posture of reverence and sometimes penitence. We kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer because that is when Jesus our King arrives.

Catholic theology has traditionally been non-dualist in its thinking about human beings: we are an inseparable composite of body, mind and spirit. So we involve our bodies and our senses in our worship.

3. "So how do I know what to do?"

The advice from @JohnnieWalker and @falcon269 above is the best...follow along with others. Just like a dance, you best bet is to jump in and do it as best you can! No one will fault you for sitting (being a 'wall-flower', to extend the overextended dancing metaphor), nor will they likely even notice. But you'll certainly experience it more deeply if you experience it as a participant rather than a spectator.


Buen Camino (y buen bailando!)

-Jason