Beggars in León

[Luka]

I am in León right now and a little bit shocked by the number of beggars. Almost all supermarket entrances are covered, but there is also a small group imposing themselves on tourists sitting on terraces. It seems organised. Young and pretty girls, wearing the same outfits: long flowery skirts, a headscarf and a Mercadona bag. Is this new or have I been away too long from the Camino cities?

 

[amancio]

Sounds like eastern European gangs, do not place any valuables on the table surface in a terrace and you should be ok

 

[november_moon]

We saw similar people in Leon and Burgos when we walked a few years ago. It's the same as you see in Madrid, Seville, or any other city of size. They seem to be expanding their range. Just keep your distance and ignore them - tell them to get lost if they approach you. Same with anyone on the street that claim they are collecting money for charity, signatures for something, etc.

 

[Jeff Crawley]

As always the expression "¡No es no!" is a useful one to know.

 

[Luka]

I know my Spanish, but prefer to stay polite with fellow human beings. But these girls just keep standing at your table after 'no', a shaking head and ignoring them. I wonder why the owners of these cafes let them. Sitting on a terrace and watching the world pass by is a less pleasant experience this way.

 

[Dsavid Keyte]

I live in León, a lot of the beggars are Portuguese, and many of they have been around for years,ignore them and they will go away

 

[LTfit]

I am in León right now and a little bit shocked by the number of beggars. Almost all supermarket entrances are covered, but there is also a small group imposing themselves on tourists sitting on terraces. It seems organised. Young and pretty girls, wearing the same outfits: long flowery skirts, a headscarf and a Mercadona bag. Is this new or have I been away too long from the Camino cities?

Hey @Luka! Arrived in León this afternoon from Gijón, walked Bilbao - Gijón (walked Amandi - Gijón this a.m. and trained to León to visit Christine at her Albergue Villares de Órbigo. And you???

And re the beggars - I saw a few that looked like pilgrims.

 

[Luka]

Madre mía, I trained from León to Oviedo this morning... We could have waved at each other!

And re the beggars - I saw a few that looked like pilgrims.

Yes, saw those too. Saw beggars of all sorts and kind in León. But the girls with the scarfs and Mercadona bags were the most annoying. Maybe I have been away too long from bigger Spanish cities...

 

[tpmchugh]

Not just the cities. I got hassled by two of them climbing up to O Cebreiro. They seemed to have started from La Faba and were working their way down. Seeing them in the cities was no big surprise but on that trail, I was shocked

 

[Mugatu]

I’ve seen them on the trail approach others, but steer clear of myself as I near them... they definitely prey on people whom they perceive may bend a sympathetic ear... or maybe Im just off putting in appearance

 

[november_moon]

I know my Spanish, but prefer to stay polite with fellow human beings. But these girls just keep standing at your table after 'no', a shaking head and ignoring them. I wonder why the owners of these cafes let them. Sitting on a terrace and watching the world pass by is a less pleasant experience this way.

Honestly, I feel no obligation to be polite to those who are rude, invading my space, or trying to relieve me of my valuables. I don't cuss people out or anything, but I do tell them under no uncertain terms that they need to leave.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I feel no obligation to be polite to those who are rude

It is easy to be polite to those who are polite. The real test of character is being polite to those who are rude.

 

[Anamiri]

Unfortunately polite doesn't seem to work, and I think these people know that. The same person bothered me repeatedly despite being told No politely.
I took Jeff Crawley's advice went said NO ES NO firmly and loudly, and they backed off.
Good information from the forum.

 

[amancio]

Sometimes they pretend to be deaf and want to make you sign some petitions... once they have you distracted, it is easier to take something from you

 

[Dsavid Keyte]

Sometimes they pretend to be deaf and want to make you sign some petitions... once they have you distracted, it is easier to take something from you

These people are a nuisance, they tell you you have signed to donate !0/20 Euros never given them money yet

 

[Aysen Mustafa]

I came across a group of three supposedly deaf on the Camino and I said no to the older woman and she punched my arm. So be careful.

 

[CAJohn]

Assaults or threats of assaults related to begging bumps their activity into a different criminal category. Most definitely report that sort of thing to police.

I have had 2 fairly ugly incidents with these folks (1 in Italy with my kid when he was young where I probably hurt one of the women on a train, and the other in Berlin where it almost got violent with 2 male teenagers). In both cases, police were very interested.

Mostly they are annoying and aren’t interested in a violent confrontation. It interferes with their primary way of making money, which is to steal without you noticing. So, you can usually just ignore them. Don’t allow them to get close enough to touch you.

 

[Luka]

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

 

[Gadflyparexcellence]

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

Be cautious to make a sweeping statement such as "the social system in Spain is close to non-existent." Consider the following: Spain was ranked the healthiest country in the world for 2019 by the Bloomberg Healthiest Country Index. Also Spain's universal healthcare system is the envy of many countries.

 

[Luka]

Be cautious to make a sweeping statement such as "the social system in Spain is close to non-existent." Consider the following: Spain was ranked the healthiest country in the world for 2019 by the Bloomberg Healthiest Country Index. Also Spain's universal healthcare system is the envy of many countries.

I know the health care here is excellent. But unemployment benefits and pensions aren't.

 

[Gadflyparexcellence]

I know the health care here is excellent. But unemployment benefits and pensions aren't.

Unemployment benefits and pensions are not much better here in the US - the richest nation in the world- either.

 

[patgreen]

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

I feel they are all having a hard time even the ones who are less "real". I live in London it's the same here.

 

[Luka]

Unemployment benefits and pensions are not much better here in the US - the richest nation in the world- either.

I won't discuss that. The point that I wanted to make is that there are probably quite a lot of beggars in the streets of León (and other Spanish cities) who have hit rock bottom and have just no other way to survive.

 

[Pelegrin]

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

If you meant a universal minimum income, Spain doesn't have it.I think the UK has it. In the UK 170.000 homeless, 40.000 in Spain.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

eerrrmmm...Seems to me that Spain's system of social safety nets is very well-developed, if not provident. Jobs are hard to come by and hard to keep, wages are low, and regulations are punitive to small businesses...but every spaniard knows he can see a doctor if he is ill without bankrupting his family, he can retire with a modest state pension, his kids will get a higher education if they want one without taking on crippling debt. I do not know what drives these folks to beg...perhaps it is the only work they can find

 

[domigee]

The problem is that there are also 'real' beggars. Desperate people who lost almost everything. The social system in Spain is close to non-existent.

Err.... I beg to differ!.... But hey, I have no wish to enter that type of discussion now. Just stating that this sweeping statement is ... erm... misleading? (For lack of a better word?)

 

[Walking Lover]

Sounds like eastern European gangs, do not place any valuables on the table surface in a terrace and you should be ok

I don't recall seeing these in '16.

 

[domigee]

...but every spaniard knows he can see a doctor if he is ill without bankrupting his family, he can retire with a modest state pension, his kids will get a higher education if they want one without taking on crippling debt.

I can vouch the health system in Spain is second to none. It is even better now than in my home country (France) and certainly much better than in my second country (the UK).

 

[Anna Cameron]

These people are a nuisance, they tell you you have signed to donate !0/20 Euros never given them money yet

Unemployment benefits and pensions are not much better here in the US - the richest nation in the world- either.

Unemployment benefits and pensions hardly exist at all in the USA!! only for those who are or have been employed, but nothing for those unable to work.

 

[C clearly]

the richest nation in the world

What is the basis or measure for this?

 

[Gadflyparexcellence]

What is the basis or measure for this?

Interesting question. Generally wealth of a nation is determined in terms of GDP. In 2017 US had $19+ trillion GDP, almost one fourth of the entire global wealth.

 

[TaraWalks]

I don't recall seeing these in '16.

I saw them on my 2016 Camino. Pamplona and Leon, hassling us while we were seated at tables.

 

[Aysen Mustafa]

The woman who punched me didn't like my emphatic 'no'. I had been reading about them on this forum and others so was expecting to see them, but not on the trail and so early in the morning. The young man who was behind the women didn't see what had happened and also asked me to sign his petition. When I said no, he just moved on. There were a lot of these scammers in Porto as well with their clipboards, and dressed similarly.

 

[november_moon]

It is easy to be polite to those who are polite. The real test of character is being polite to those who are rude.

I'll gladly fail that test of character if it means keeping pickpockets and scam artists out of arms reach of my valuables, thanks.

 

[Luka]

eerrrmmm...Seems to me that Spain's system of social safety nets is very well-developed, if not provident. Jobs are hard to come by and hard to keep, wages are low, and regulations are punitive to small businesses...but every spaniard knows he can see a doctor if he is ill without bankrupting his family, he can retire with a modest state pension, his kids will get a higher education if they want one without taking on crippling debt. I do not know what drives these folks to beg...perhaps it is the only work they can find

I guess it is my Dutch perception then. I don't see how someone who is unemployed in Spain can make ends meet without the help of family members.

I am aware of the fact that there are many countries where this is the case. The only point I wanted to make was that I think for many beggars in Spain begging is really their last resort. But I should have used other words to explain myself.

 

[KinkyOne]

I won't discuss that. The point that I wanted to make is that there are probably quite a lot of beggars in the streets of León (and other Spanish cities) who have hit rock bottom and have just no other way to survive.

It's hard to click on Like but I have to agree. The problem that is appearing right now is that people with full time employment can't make ends meet each month. It's happening largely in EU in past couple of years.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

Sometimes they pretend to be deaf and want to make you sign some petitions... once they have you distracted, it is easier to take something from you

I met some of them somewhere near Palas in 2012...

Offered them a couple of euros 'cause I'm a priest and I was wearing my collar and I somehow thought it would look bad if I didn't. But I knew they were bogus. And they knew that I knew. I half expected them to decline the offer. They didn't. So I gave them a blessing, too, gratis.

I sorta hoped that they'd be moved by that encounter to rethink what they were doing, moved to a change of heart and to a new and better life.... But obviously not.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

And while I'm at it -- when I wear my clerical collar and walk through any large town or city on the Way, it's a begger magnet! And they can't all be bogus!

Since I always give something, even when I don't much want to, I have to keep my pocket full of coins and small bills.... ("For thereby some have entertained angels unawares." [Heb 13:2])

A phenomenon not confined to the Camino, btw! When I walk through the depressed parts of certain American cities, same thing happens. Sigh.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

And they can't all be bogus!

Are you sure??

I like your response: trust and don't bother to verify (but I am without the collar). I had multiple encounters with beggars in Saigon during that war. One night changed my attitude toward the poor, even those pretending to be poor. I view it as a pivot point in my ethical life. It IS possible to be too stingy.

Being aware of the various scams along the Camino, I don't give to the ones I know are scams, but I remain firmly polite in our encounters. I will react to assault (grabbing my arm, for example), since that often is a setup if there is a group of beggars. I put on my pack cover in bus and train stations, and never "pat" my stored valuables! That may be a little bit of "trust, but verify."

Being rude does not deter them, and gives away a small piece of my soul. I don't let them make me less human.

 

[David Tallan]

When I was on Camino, I also tried to keep some change in my pockets so that I could always give to those who asked. The constant practice of charity seemed to me to be part of the practice of pilgrimage - at least, for me. Some, I suspect, may have been scammers, but I was more concerned for the moral quality of my own actions than for the actions of others.