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Kirkie,I really must attempt this part again, from Alto de Erro. It was part of my first day, on my first camino. Or was it day 2? I began in Roncesvalles, and it took three days to Pamplona. 2006. A lifetime ago.
What I recall is the heat. And steps, down along near a cement factory. I do not recall the terrible descent many speak of. Was that the steps? My clearest memory of those steps: Catherine and Claude, a French couple we matched almost step for step, and in every albergue to Santiago! Catherine, a recorder of many details in her sketchbook... they used to pass us out fairly early on, with their towels hanging and swinging from the backpacks.
As for Alto de Perdón, up and down, I love it! No accounting for tastes...
Over the years, I have learned this: my belief in what I can do comes from something I cannot capture. It is somewhere in my silly brain. Not my feet. If I decide I can't, that's it! If I allow a tiny doubt, of maybe yes - the world is my oyster!
Thank you for this hazard alert. I will be there soon and have added a caution note to my route map.The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE.
The day that I walked that part of the way it was raining hard and had been all night, I jogged down, at 66 years old. My strategy was to walk where the water was flowing and puddling the deepest. Generally the centre of the path.The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
We have done both road and path. I do agree that the guard rails are close to the roads in certain spots. But they usually don’t last long. Itis possible to anticipate the traffic and walk slower or speed up so that one does not get caught between the rail and the vehicles.The alternative of walking on the road is even more dangerous because of the speed of the vehicular traffic and the guard rails along narrow verge set so close to the pavement.
Isn't it interesting how our views change. I "hated" the downhill into El Acebo the first time. My feet were killing me and I barely made it into town. The next time it was no problem at all. I was prepped mentally for the worst but somehow it wasn't. The same with the downhill from Alte de Perdon. However I will skip it this time ( leaving for Pamplona in a week ) and taxi down because my husband is joining me and he has neuropathy in both his feet . So having no feeling in his feet its too dangerous to do those rocky slopes. We will do most regular paths and he will skip the more challenging sections but will still be able to enjoy the Camino experience.I didn't find it so terrible as people had said - I've seen far worse. As @DoughnutANZ says, it's navigated most easily if you've had experience on rough terrain. If you haven't, maybe go find some rocky tracks at home before you do the camino, learning the art of being nimble.
That said, I hated the back side of Alto de Perdon the first time I walked it. The time after that it didn't seem so difficult, perhaps because I was prepared for it to be awful.
But you did it and you’ll remember it. Incidentally I got chased by an escaped bull running down there.The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
The first time I climbed Alto de Perdon I didn't know that it might be treacherous nor that I might see a vision.I didn't find it so terrible as people had said - I've seen far worse. As @DoughnutANZ says, it's navigated most easily if you've had experience on rough terrain. If you haven't, maybe go find some rocky tracks at home before you do the camino, learning the art of being nimble.
That said, I hated the back side of Alto de Perdon the first time I walked it. The time after that it didn't seem so difficult, perhaps because I was prepared for it to be awful.
I have bilateral knee replacements, Parkinson's, and neuropathy in my feet. I rather hated the descents to Zubiri, from Alto de Perdon, and into Molinaseca. I had to go so slow. I made it but was not having any fun or thinking any good thoughts.The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
My wife and I walked to Zubiri in April. We are in mid 70's and my wife twice fell during that couple of miles. While there are other sections before Burgos, our destination, that were also washed out, nothing compared to the last mile or two into Zubiri. I think at the very least there should be a cautionary sign and I think some thought should be given to closing that section. We walked this last in 2013 and 2014 and while we remember it being rough, it was nothing as dangerous as it is today. Do beware!!!The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
I did both in 2015 and 2017. I remember Alto de Perdón as being lots of loose rocks. I have ZERO memory of Zubiri, so something definitely has changed. It was AWFUL. And much longer than the A de P.You might want to skip the descent from Alto de Perdón too.
Exactly!!My wife and I walked to Zubiri in April. We are in mid 70's and my wife twice fell during that couple of miles. While there are other sections before Burgos, our destination, that were also washed out, nothing compared to the last mile or two into Zubiri. I think at the very least there should be a cautionary sign and I think some thought should be given to closing that section. We walked this last in 2013 and 2014 and while we remember it being rough, it was nothing as dangerous as it is today. Do beware!!!
Oh please all you gods of rock and water, wind and air never let this be so. A Peregrino Auto-pista. Safe, comfortable, replete with rest-stops and Orientation Boards.Path upgrades must be very expensive and I am sure must be generated by Volunteers. So, it takes time for any section to be repaired. Perhaps the final 6 or 7 km down to Zubiri will eventually be paved with wide steps like the upper half, down to Rio de Erro.
The worst parts are the jagged sheets of slate under foot which is espcially slippery when wet, it calls for taking ones time and side steeping in a crab walk for about 30 minutes or so. The alternative of walking on the road is even more dangerous because of the speed of the vehicular traffic and the guard rails along narrow verge set so close to the pavement.
The GR 225 will take you through and over ground not dissimilar to the Camino though perhaps a little less eroded. The "safe" route is to follow the N-135 to Zubiri. There are buses at roughly 9:00, 10:00 & 11:00 in the morning
In future, it may be more accepted to find positive rather than fault, (honey rather than vinegar). I have never met anyone who enjoys being dismissed for simply outlining procedure, possibly policy too.Oh please all you gods of rock and water, wind and air never let this be so. A Peregrino Auto-pista. Safe, comfortable, replete with rest-stops and Orientation Boards.
If you don’t fancy the rocky way just follow the road or call a taxi. It’s just a path down a hill. Take your eyes off the future and pay attention to your present
Erm ... not sure what this is supposed to tell us about the physical state of the trail of the Camino Francés just before Zubiri?actually IS an Orientation Board
I don’t think this stretch has ever been any different! When we walked down in 2017 it was hellish and we had a nice sunny dry day! We also carried our heavy packs!The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
I walked it on my first Camino in 2015 and again in 2017 and had ZERO memory of anything like I saw last week. On the other hand, Alto de Perdón was EXACTLY as I recall it from before - loose rocks all the way down. There was no surprise. The owner of the albergue just across the bridge was out painting her metal fencing and I engaged her in conversation. She very CLEARLY stated that things had changed for the worse due to severe erosion from recent heavy rains and melting snow. Other pilgrims much younger than I - I am 75 - also agreed that it was hell on wheels. I would venture that most pilgrims are NOT experienced hikers or mountaineers and should be made aware that this section is not like any other “up and down” on the Camino. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of any others who have done it this year.I don’t think this stretch has ever been any different! When we walked down in 2017 it was hellish and we had a nice sunny dry day! We also carried our heavy packs!
I walked it on my first Camino in 2015 and again in 2017 and had ZERO memory of anything like I saw last week.
this section is not like any other “up and down” on the Camino.
That’s good to have that explanation. Thank you. I have walked that path three times - 2011, 2013 and 2014 - and also had no recollection of any great difficulty. Was starting to question my memory. But like you, remembered the descent from Alto del Perdon as being tricky.I walked it on my first Camino in 2015 and again in 2017 and had ZERO memory of anything like I saw last week.
I provided the pic of the Board as back up to what I was saying, that it did exist and that it provided some much needed shade when I needed it. My version came from a Google maps screenshot so, yes, I did not see its context...but it is, maybe in a stretch, still an orientation board.Erm ... not sure what this is supposed to tell us about the physical state of the trail of the Camino Francés just before Zubiri?
The board in the photo is an announcement about EU funds in the context of the long running EAFRD program (European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development) and here specifically about funds used for measures for the improvement of the local infrastructure for ganadores - which means keepers and breeders of livestock, probably sheep in this case. As usual, these projects are co-financed by EU funds earmarked for specific action and by funds from the regional government, hence the logos at the bottom. It is sometimes mandatory to announce this publicly in the vicinity of the works planned and/or done.
PS: No, I can't read all of the text on the photo above in this thread but I found a better photo of the same board on Wikiloc that clearly shows the text. It merely confirmed what I guessed anyway as soon as I saw the EU logo on the board. The only difference was that I had thought that the funds come from the FEDER program but they come from the EAFRD program 2014-2020.
FWIW, a high resolution photo of this board:
View attachment 126602
Sure.it is, maybe in a stretch, still an orientation board.
My memory is that those weren't flagstones - just natural shale. But as you say...memory is a tricky thing. It actually doesn't matter, because now the bottom line is all that is gone.I'll swear that during Covid, the flagstones were removed from that stretch, likely as a safety precaution. Now is just really eroded....since the flagst
Very good question.Which, of course, is the question here: Who could be contacted and could do something about the current conditions of the descent to Zubiri?
Thank you, @Peregrinopaul for chiming in !!! We know that you know a rock when you see oneThis means that the softer shale layers easily erode away into narrow channels, particularly on the downslopes, leaving projecting slabs of intervening, harder rock which eventually break off and litter the track. The whole process is inevitable, and can only be rectified by concreting over it.
I did that without issue, slowly and carefully. It was exactly what I remember from 2015 and 2017. Zubiri…………not so much…….AWFUL.You might want to skip the descent from Alto de Perdón too.
@Peregrinopaul, not recent pictures but pictures of the descent to Zubiri from recent years can be seen below. The first one shows perhaps this "flysch" formation? The second one shows perhaps what I myself remember: smooth steep surfaces. I often don't have a particular memory of rocky terrain along the Camino Francés, only whether, at the time, I was wearing the right kind of shoes for the terrain (Meindl hiking shoes) or the wrong kind (Hoka One One trainers). As to Zubiri, what I personally regard as treacherous is the steep upper section in the second photo. Not any naturally rocky parts (which certainly were there, they just did not pose a particular problem to me).This has been an interesting thread to follow, and I've been waiting in vain for someone to post a recent picture. I have not been on the descent to Zubiri, (I took the road), but I do know that the track has the misfortune to be underlain by the flysch
When I encountered this board, it was just after contemplating what I was going to be able to do after blowing out my left leg IT Band climbing down to the Rio Erro. I sat by the water for a time. Then, once I was able to get started, that sign appeared, offering the only shade available anywhere around. See where the shade is? That is where I was, having absolutely no interest in what the sign said, at the time.Erm ... not sure what this is supposed to tell us about the physical state of the trail of the Camino Francés just before Zubiri?
The board in the photo is an announcement about EU funds in the context of the long running EAFRD program (European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development) and here specifically about funds used for measures for the improvement of the local infrastructure for ganadores - which means keepers and breeders of livestock, probably sheep in this case. As usual, these projects are co-financed by EU funds earmarked for specific action and by funds from the regional government, hence the logos at the bottom. It is sometimes mandatory to announce this publicly in the vicinity of the works planned and/or done.
PS: No, I can't read all of the text on the photo above in this thread but I found a better photo of the same board on Wikiloc that clearly shows the text. It merely confirmed what I guessed anyway as soon as I saw the EU logo on the board. The only difference was that I had thought that the funds come from the FEDER program but they come from the EAFRD program 2014-2020.
FWIW, a high resolution photo of this board:
View attachment 126602
@MichelleElynHogan, it is good to learn that this board appeared for you and provided you with shade and comfort when you needed it.that sign appeared, offering the only shade available anywhere around
I'm on board.I suggest that it is time for this board about EU funding for agriculture in Navarra to have a rest, wouldn't you agree?
This is a screenshot from a Youtube video I watched. Didn't note the date....not recent pictures but pictures of the descent to Zubiri from recent years can be seen below. The first one shows perhaps this "flysch" formation? The second one shows perhaps what I myself remember: smooth steep surfaces.
I (selfishly) agree. Love the Aragones.But I love it too much to encourage all of you to follow it in future.
I agreeThis is a screenshot from a Youtube video I watched. Didn't note the date. View attachment 126760 Lovely
Perhaps that is not what a pilgrim would usually expect, but then again you can be proud you made it..... Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
I think the video is meant more as an illustration that there are other ways of descending a steep slope on a nature trail than staggering downwards on 4 supports, namely on two feet and two poles.I cannot see that the slope above Zubiri, which is apparently flysch, has any significant comparison to scree or could benefit from the descent procedures usable on scree.
@MichelleElynHogan, it is good to learn that this board appeared for you and provided you with shade and comfort when you needed it.
However, I am puzzled by this board's continued appearance in this thread about the geology and current condition of the Camino trail down to Zubiri. Your screenshot shows the coordinates of this board: I double checked in Google Earth just now: the board is on a roundabout on the N-135 road just before the small villages of Viscarret-Guerendiain and Lintzoain and this is long before the ascent to the Alto de Erro, let alone the descent from there down to Zubiri. I suggest that it is time for this board about EU funding for agriculture in Navarra to have a rest, wouldn't you agree?
Nightmare? maybe a little of an exaggeration...The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
Ahem……..Nightmare? maybe a little of an exaggeration...
I recall noting in 2017 that a fall on the descent into Zubiri would be quite uncomfortable but I didn't feel in mortal danger. In 2018, I didn't even notice it...
Yes, if one is uncertain of their footing, a fall is a possibility, but with due care and attention to foot placement (and maybe poles), a fall is not an inevitability!
We walked it on 6th May this year, we are seasoned walkers from England ,most of our walks are on the fells of The Lake District, the Scottish Highlands or Snowdonia National Park and so we are used to steep descents. We found it really tough, the path was in terrible condition, in fact i have never seen anything quite like it. So although I have never seen what condition it was in years ago I would have to agree with you ELHS220 it was awful.I walked it on my first Camino in 2015 and again in 2017 and had ZERO memory of anything like I saw last week. On the other hand, Alto de Perdón was EXACTLY as I recall it from before - loose rocks all the way down. There was no surprise. The owner of the albergue just across the bridge was out painting her metal fencing and I engaged her in conversation. She very CLEARLY stated that things had changed for the worse due to severe erosion from recent heavy rains and melting snow. Other pilgrims much younger than I - I am 75 - also agreed that it was hell on wheels. I would venture that most pilgrims are NOT experienced hikers or mountaineers and should be made aware that this section is not like any other “up and down” on the Camino. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of any others who have done it this year.
We walked it on 6th May this year, we are seasoned walkers from England ,most of our walks are on the fells of The Lake District, the Scottish Highlands or Snowdonia National Park and so we are used to steep descents. We found it really tough, the path was in terrible condition, in fact i have never seen anything quite like it. So although I have never seen what condition it was in years ago I would have to agree with you ELHS220 it was awful.
Thank you.We walked it on 6th May this year, we are seasoned walkers from England ,most of our walks are on the fells of The Lake District, the Scottish Highlands or Snowdonia National Park and so we are used to steep descents. We found it really tough, the path was in terrible condition, in fact i have never seen anything quite like it. So although I have never seen what condition it was in years ago I would have to agree with you ELHS220 it was awful.
I suggest stopping in Viskarret and taking a taxi from there.Hi, my wife and I are in the planning stage for our Camino in Oct next year. After reading this thread, we’ve decided that we would prefer catch a taxi into Zubiri. Where would you all recommend that we do that from? We would be walking this stage from Roncesvalles, and would like to walk as much of it before taking the taxi. Would it be difficult to get a taxi from Lintzoain? Thanks.
Lintzoain is a busy hamlet with several pilgrim places but no taxi service as such. You could telephone from there for a taxi. Look on Google for taxis in the Erro area.
You might have the taxi meet you by the Food truck at the Puerto de Erro where the Camino crosses N135 for the last time before Zubiri.
Did you have to pre-arrange this? Or can we just get a taxi in town when we arrive at Viskarret?I suggest stopping in Viskarret and taking a taxi from there.
I do it often. No problem.
I've just had the bar tender call a taxi when at one of the bars.Did you have to pre-arrange this? Or can we just get a taxi in town when we arrive at Viskarret?
Tinker, talks nowt but wind! take a taxi, it's a camino not a day out. Get a grip, you're always waffling!!Oh please all you gods of rock and water, wind and air never let this be so. A Peregrino Auto-pista. Safe, comfortable, replete with rest-stops and Orientation Boards.
If you don’t fancy the rocky way just follow the road or call a taxi. It’s just a path down a hill. Take your eyes off the future and pay attention to your present
Leave it like it is , when you don't like it take a taxi or walk over the the road. Simple.Path upgrades must be very expensive and I am sure must be generated by Volunteers. So, it takes time for any section to be repaired. Perhaps the final 6 or 7 km down to Zubiri will eventually be paved with wide steps like the upper half, down to Rio de Erro.
I see you walked in 2018.Have walked this, and while challenging, suggestions to pave the Camino horrify me. Best advice I can give is to include downhill training in your prep--it is far harder on the body than uphill, and most people seem surprised by this. As well, there us nothing wrong with purchasing a guidebook, as they all have huge red exclamation points warning you of these sections. So there is really no good reason to be surprised by these sections
The three times I (on the wrong side of 70) walked this bit, the weather luckily was sunny and dry and did not leave any particular impression or memory – unlike the descent from the Alto del Perdon. "Nightmare" might give Newbies here a wrong impression.The final stretch from Alto de Erro down to Zubiri is a NIGHTMARE. In my opinion treacherous and downright dangerous. Evidently excess rain and melting snow have washed away much of the earth leaving the path with nothing but jagged rocks sticking up like stalagmites in a cave. It seems to go on forever. I travel with only a day pack and two poles and had a very difficult time. I was afraid of falling with every step. I can’t imagine doing this section without poles AND a heavy pack. Had I known this in advance, I would never have attempted to walk it. BEWARE!!!!
It is indeed the flysch, dipping steeply to the right of the photo. I’m excited to say that I will be there in 3 weeks - watch this space. I have allowed myself ample time to crawl down with my bike. I wont need a bell.@Peregrinopaul, not recent pictures but pictures of the descent to Zubiri from recent years can be seen below. The first one shows perhaps this "flysch" formation? The second one shows perhaps what I myself remember: smooth steep surfaces.).
View attachment 126721
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