Donativos

[ChrisT]

I’m currently walking Del Norte which is wonderful! The weather is great along with the food, people and accommodation!

I’ve stayed in a couple of donation Albergues which again have been decent, offering dinner, bed and breakfast for a donation.

I got to thinking that the owners of these places probably do quite nicely thank you very much!

There was 8 of us staying, I threw €20 in the box on my way out, which felt about right? (I have no idea). If everyone did that that’s €160.

Whilst the meal was decent it was inexpensive to make, the breakfast was toast & coffee which is fine. The overheads looked like they were minimal. I’d say if he’s averaging 8, more in the summer, less in the winter. He’s probably doing ok. I can’t imagine the tax man knows too much about it either.

Anyway - just an observation. Long May they continue!

 

[Camembert]

I have no idea of donative on the Norte nor the Frances but about the only donative in Portugal I know that 20€ per person is usance.
It is not only the food and drinks.
The (privat) owners have to cope with e.g.cleaning , energie and water costs, washing the sheets every day, and debugging the albergue. Every 2 months or so there comes a specialist to research the premisses for bedbugs and he certificates . I saw it once while being hopitaleiro .That was not cheap.
Then they have to reserve money for renewing things now and then like matrasses , sheets , blankets and at longer term renovations of bathrooms and sanitairy stuff.
The saddest thing I saw was that they had a kind of cardboard whisky container , the folks put the donative money into.
Some instead of putting it in , took the money out So my wife and I decided to buy them a strong metal postbox with a lock , fixed at the wall so forever it was secured the money kept in. Untill today it is still working .
I do not think the owners will become millionaires and it is very hard working .

 

[NicP]

I'm not an expert, but from my perspective, 20 euros seems like a great deal for a bed for a night in a decent albergue, plus dinner and breakfast. I'm not sure that its the fast track to making a good living. I'm guessing its something they're not in only for the money.... My experience from the Camino Frances very recently is that 10 euros for a bed seems pretty standard in a reasonable (not fantastic) albergue, 13 euros for a pilgrim's menu (cheap but nutritious food - certainly nothing special) and 3-4 euros for a basic breakfast would be standard. I think its great that there is a system of donativo albergues that enable some who could otherwise not walk to have this experience, but as I said above, I can't imagine anybody doing it in order to make a profit (if that was the motive, I'd be setting a price, taking bookings, and ensuring I covered my costs - but maybe that's just me). I've always wondered how much the tax man knows about much of what happens on the camino!

 

[markie6]

For every person who donates a decent amount, there will probably be somebody who cannot or will not do the same. Most will have noticed a few freeloaders while walking.

As has been mentioned before.. a certain amount will be needed just to break even and relying on the generosity of pilgrims will not be the source of getting rich for sure. Glad that they are there , helping those who may need it but it's interesting to note that the similar threads that have popped up are " please don't treat donativos as free.. and is there a list"

 

[Flog]

I got to thinking that the owners of these places probably do quite nicely thank you very much!

Financially, not really. For those who own/run an albergue on a donation basis, it's a labour of love and a struggle to pay the bills. But they do it with their hearts. Some give generously, some give less generously and some so called 'real pilgrims' expect others to give them a bed, food and wash their clothes for nothing, but still manage to complain.

Making assumptions about the albergue owner's tax affairs is a bit disingenuous. You got a bed, a shower, your dinner and breakfast for your €20, perhaps you got your clothes washed and free WiFi too.
Be happy.

 

[Kirkie]

I did not really understand the idea behind donativo when first it came into view, don't know if I do, yet.
In principle, it is an admirable stance.
As a volunteer, in a parochial, I am never privy to knowing who paid or not, nor how much. I see what I see, and I know what some pilgrims do to be respectful of the service that is being given.
Personally, we give what we would if a charge was being asked for. A private albergue that is donativo, well, maybe that is a different story. They need to cover their costs.
On balance, I think that we are very privileged to be able to walk a camino in the first place, and to contribute to those who have taken on a service, even if it is in hope of making a living - that is what it is - is the very least we can do. We are very far from the origins of pilgrimage to Santiago, and we just need to respect what that entails in our own times.
I have seen young people and older people using the system. Just a fact. A fact that has to be reckoned with, but let's hope that the majority will honour the service.

 

[Vacajoe]

As one of many on this forum who have served at a donativo, I can attest that donations rarely amount to 20€ a person. Sometimes it’s just a few coins for food, shelter, electricity, hot water, and the like. If we averaged 10€ a person, it was a pleasant surprise even though a similar stay at a private albergue would run 20€-25€. Once you deduct ALL the costs and the fact that pilgrimage is not really a year-round thing on most routes, running a donativo is a labor of love rather than a road to riches.

 

[VNwalking]

BUen camio, Chris!

I got to thinking that the owners of these places probably do quite nicely thank you very much!

You try it.
You'll see the other side.

If everyone did that that’s €160.

Yeah, uh-huh. But everybody doesn't.
Sometimes people can't afford anything. And sadly there is no shortage of well-off cheapskates and freeloaders too.
It's a labor of love.

 

[ChrisT]

I have no idea of donative on the Norte nor the Frances but about the only donative in Portugal I know that 20€ per person is usance.
It is not only the food and drinks.
The (privat) owners have to cope with e.g.cleaning , energie and water costs, washing the sheets every day, and debugging the albergue. Every 2 months or so there comes a specialist to research the premisses for bedbugs and he certificates . I saw it once while being hopitaleiro .That was not cheap.
Then they have to reserve money for renewing things now and then like matrasses , sheets , blankets and at longer term renovations of bathrooms and sanitairy stuff.
The saddest thing I saw was that they had a kind of cardboard whisky container , the folks put the donative money into.
Some instead of putting it in , took the money out So my wife and I decided to buy them a strong metal postbox with a lock , fixed at the wall so forever it was secured the money kept in. Untill today it is still working .
I do not think the owners will become millionaires and it is very hard working .

I’m not suggesting the owner was a millionaire he wasn’t serving up the toast in a Armani suit and a Rolex watch.

I guess like any business- some people just aren’t cut out for it. If your keeping your takings in a cardboard box then maybe the jobs not for you!

 

[ChrisT]

Financially, not really. For those who own/run an albergue on a donation basis, it's a labour of love and a struggle to pay the bills. But they do it with their hearts. Some give generously, some give less generously and some so called 'real pilgrims' expect others to give them a bed, food and wash their clothes for nothing, but still manage to complain.

Making assumptions about the albergue owner's tax affairs is a bit disingenuous. You got a bed, a shower, your dinner and breakfast for your €20, perhaps you got your clothes washed and free WiFi too.
Be happy.

I am happy thanks! It was lovely and as long as the owner makes a decent living out of it I’m happy for him too.

 

[ChrisT]

BUen camio, Chris!


You try it.
You'll see the other side.


Yeah, uh-huh. But everybody doesn't.
Sometimes people can't afford anything. And sadly there is no shortage of well-off cheapskates and freeloaders too.
It's a labor of love.

Gracias!

I wouldn’t try it. I’d be no good at it! the hospitality industry isn’t for me.

So are we saying that no donativos make a profit? I find that hard to believe.

 

[J Willhaus]

We also volunteer in donativo albergues. Depending on the management, sometimes we keep track of the donations and other times some local official does. I don't really want to know how much people give, because I want to treat every person the same regardless.

In 2018 we were told that the average donation was 3 euros per pilgrim for a bed, communal evening meal, and breakfast. Our community contact told us not to count the money because we would be depressed that our hard work was given so little monetary value. She came and counted the money at intervals.

We always give more than what we would pay at a private albergue because we believe in the donativo concept and we know there are many who don't or can't give much.

Thank you for giving 20 euros. As others have said consider what you would pay for a meal, bed, and breakfast when you make your donativo gift.

Edit: we work at parochial, municipal, and association albergues. As volunteers our reward is caring for the river of pilgrims moving toward Santiago.

 

[good_old_shoes]

I remember, in the donativo in Granon, the donation box was open and it had a sign "give what you can, take what you need".

This kind of places are not a normal business. I haven't worked as a volunteer nor run a donativo albergue, but that's the firm impression I got. It is about helping pilgrims of all kinds of backgrounds, even the poor, so that they can safely be on their way to Santiago. Even the less fortunate who can't pay or can't pay much. From what I've seen most of these places are not run by private people who "own" it, but the parrish, a pilgrim association or the town, and staff are usually volunteers who work there because they want to give back to the Camino and help other pilgrims.

I was in a private "donativo" in France one, and a pilgrim asked if he could stay without money if he helped around the place (pay by work). They said no, and later I heard them make fun of it, "what does he think, this is ia a business, not charity". Something like that. It was a donativo with fixed prices (you we're told how much you have to "donate", and *there* I did get the Impression it was done to avoid tax... But maybe it was a misunderstanding, my french is not very good).

I've often heard hospitaleros in donativos say, when everybody was at the dinner table, "the dinner today has been payed for by the donations of the pilgrims yesterday. The pilgrims today will pay for tomorrow's pilgrims". So basically, the more you donate, the better the pilgrims of the following days will eat.

So when you find the dinner in a donativo to be very basic, that might be the reason. Not because an owner wants to make more profit. The hospitaleros try to work with what they get. If there's no money in the box, it will be a soup and bread. If there's plenty, you might get wine and dessert. That's at least how I understood it.

It's a wonderful concept. It reminds you that you're on a pilgrimage, not on just another touristic hike. It's not always all about business and money.

(Of course donativos need money to function and stay open, but it's not their main goal to make profit, from what I understand).

Buen Camino!

 

[Camembert]

I have no idea of donative on the Norte nor the Frances but about the only donative in Portugal I know that 20€ per person is usance.
It is not only the food and drinks.
The (privat) owners have to cope with e.g.cleaning , energie and water costs, washing the sheets every day, and debugging the albergue. Every 2 months or so there comes a specialist to research the premisses for bedbugs and he certificates . I saw it once while being hopitaleiro .That was not cheap.
Then they have to reserve money for renewing things now and then like matrasses , sheets , blankets and at longer term renovations of bathrooms and sanitairy stuff.
The saddest thing I saw was that they had a kind of cardboard whisky container , the folks put the donative money into.
Some instead of putting it in , took the money out So my wife and I decided to buy them a strong metal postbox with a lock , fixed at the wall so forever it was secured the money kept in. Untill today it is still working .
I do not think the owners will become millionaires and it is very hard working .

as a comment to all this interesting posts in this topic I can tell you that most albergues in Portugal are privat . The one I am talking about is privat too. So the 20 € per person per night is a correct price I think.
you get a welcome drink and some snacks on arrival
a common meal at night with non alcoholic or alcoholic drinks. A breakfast in the morning.A bed with sheets and blankets, hot showers and free wifi

 

[J Willhaus]

I remember, in the donativo in Granon, the donation box was open and it had a sign "give what you can, take what you need".

This kind of places are not a normal business. I haven't worked as a volunteer nor run a donativo albergue, but that's the firm impression I got. It is about helping pilgrims of all kinds of backgrounds, even the poor, so that they can safely be on their way to Santiago. Even the less fortunate who can't pay or can't pay much. From what I've seen most of these places are not run by private people who "own" it, but the parrish, a pilgrim association or the town, and staff are usually volunteers who work there because they want to give back to the Camino and help other pilgrims.

I was in a private "donativo" in France one, and a pilgrim asked if he could stay without money if he helped around the place (pay by work). They said no, and later I heard them make fun of it, "what does he think, this is ia a business, not charity". Something like that. It was a donativo with fixed prices (you we're told how much you have to "donate", and *there* I did get the Impression it was done to avoid tax... But maybe it was a misunderstanding, my french is not very good).

I've often heard hospitaleros in donativos say, when everybody was at the dinner table, "the dinner today has been payed for by the donations of the pilgrims yesterday. The pilgrims today will pay for tomorrow's pilgrims". So basically, the more you donate, the better the pilgrims of the following days will eat.

So when you find the dinner in a donativo to be very basic, that might be the reason. Not because an owner wants to make more profit. The hospitaleros try to work with what they get. If there's no money in the box, it will be a soup and bread. If there's plenty, you might get wine and dessert. That's at least how I understood it.

It's a wonderful concept. It reminds you that you're on a pilgrimage, not on just another touristic hike. It's not always all about business and money.

(Of course donativos need money to function and stay open, but it's not their main goal to make profit, from what I understand).

Buen Camino!

Yes, it was at Grañón where the average gift was 3 euros per pilgrim per day in 2018.

 

[good_old_shoes]

Yes, it was at Grañón where the average gift was 3 euros per pilgrim per day in 2018.

That's sad. It is a wonderful place and deserves so much more.

 

[dougfitz]

So are we saying that no donativos make a profit? I find that hard to believe.

I'm not sure where that came from! Given the cynicism you expressed in your OP, those who appear to have a better understanding than you are displaying here are pointing out that this is a genuine labour of love for the owners. It is something I see often in Spain, and more often associated with the charity sector where I come from in Australia. Perhaps it is the same in the UK that we rarely come into contact with non-profit enterprises unless we are needy or have a philanthropic bent, and don't get exposed to what I see as a genuine willingness of the people in towns along the various Camino paths to help pilgrims.

I see that you agree that it is acceptable for someone to make a decent living out of running a donativo. Over the years I have been a member of this forum, I have seem many reports of owners having to make the choice to charge a fixed fee because they can no longer continue to operate under a donativo model. I see fewer reports of new donativos opening up. It indicates to me that it is becoming more difficult to keep establishments going.

For some time members like @Rebekah Scott would fund-raise to support donativos, and during the height of COVID lockdowns, there were regular fund-raising efforts to help albergue owners, donativo and otherwise, with works that would owners otherwise would not be able to undertake to repair or improve their properties.

I served as a hospitalero in a donotivo, and can assure you that if the owner had relied on one day's donations to fund the next days food, some pilgrims would have gone hungry.

These are not the signs of donativos making a profit as a general rule, although one would have to accept that it is a possibility.

I am not quite sure why this has piqued your interest in the way that it has. There are many Spanish and Portuguese families making at least a part of their living providing services to pilgrims. As entrepeneurs operating bars, cafes, albergues, taxis or any of the other myriad services we rely upon as pilgrims, they are entitled to the rewards of their endeavours. Questioning their motives and whether they operate within the law seems rather churlish to me.

 

[J Willhaus]

That's sad. It is a wonderful place and deserves so much more.

We loved our service there. It is considered the Queen of Albergues in our hospitalero circles and an honor to be posted there. The idea is that if you can manage at Grañón then you can manage anywhere...

 

[Jodean]

We stayed in Zalbadika a few days ago & our hostess served a delicious meal. During the meal she announced that she was able to make such a wonderful dinner because the people 2 says earlier were generous.
We dropped 40 & 30 in the box.

 

[lt56ny]

I’m currently walking Del Norte which is wonderful! The weather is great along with the food, people and accommodation!

I’ve stayed in a couple of donation Albergues which again have been decent, offering dinner, bed and breakfast for a donation.

I got to thinking that the owners of these places probably do quite nicely thank you very much!

There was 8 of us staying, I threw €20 in the box on my way out, which felt about right? (I have no idea). If everyone did that that’s €160.

Whilst the meal was decent it was inexpensive to make, the breakfast was toast & coffee which is fine. The overheads looked like they were minimal. I’d say if he’s averaging 8, more in the summer, less in the winter. He’s probably doing ok. I can’t imagine the tax man knows too much about it either.

Anyway - just an observation. Long May they continue!

I guess like any business- some people just aren’t cut out for it. If your keeping your takings in a cardboard box then maybe the jobs not for you!

I am not sure if the Camino and the spirit and love of Camino is right for you. I grew up in The Bronx and there sure isn't much that offends me. I am probably about the least politically correct person you could meet. But your cynicism and complete lack of understanding of what a donativo is astounds me. As others have said for every 20E contribution there are way more people who leave nothing or just some loose change. I know this from personal experience after sitting in many reception areas of donativos watching people leave nothing or just some loose change. These people wake early and go to bed late. They cook, clean, pay taxes, pay skyrocketing energy costs, food, supplies for the albergue, albergue maintenance to fix things ungrateful tourists break, steal or abuse, buy food, the list goes on and on. You should be thankful and feel blessed that there are people who have way more love and generosity than you or I have working tirelessly in their labor of love. Pilgrims should walk each day giving thanks that they are lucky enough to walk these sacred steps.
Maybe some of these donativos have to use a cardboard box. I would say that they are doing a job that is exactly for them. Maybe the real takeaway is that those who have dark and cynical attitudes may need to think that the camino is not for them. Think about this on your next camino maybe you will bring more sun and love into your heart.

 

[LTfit]

I’m currently walking Del Norte which is wonderful! The weather is great along with the food, people and accommodation!

I’ve stayed in a couple of donation Albergues which again have been decent, offering dinner, bed and breakfast for a donation.

I got to thinking that the owners of these places probably do quite nicely thank you very much!

There was 8 of us staying, I threw €20 in the box on my way out, which felt about right? (I have no idea). If everyone did that that’s €160.

Whilst the meal was decent it was inexpensive to make, the breakfast was toast & coffee which is fine. The overheads looked like they were minimal. I’d say if he’s averaging 8, more in the summer, less in the winter. He’s probably doing ok. I can’t imagine the tax man knows too much about it either.

Anyway - just an observation. Long May they continue!

Sorry, I haven't read the previous comments (will go back and do so) but I had quite an immediate visceral reaction to your post which is quite uncommon for me. Why? Well after 12 years walking Caminos (14 different routes) and volunteering in donativo albergues 6 times, it is my experience that your comment is far from correct. In fact, the opposite is usually the case which is exactly why FICS and 19 other Camino associations are fighting to get the traditional (i.e. donation and volunteer based) albergues on the UNESCO list in order to protect them.

I'll just give you a few examples. While volunteering in Nájera I asked the local assocation how much a pilgrim gave on average: THREE EUROS! Granted there was no meal involved but please, three euros?! The same story in Ponferrada. It was better in Grañón but that's a real exception.

Yes, there will be the occasional person giving €20 but by far this is not the case. In fact that €20 helps cover those pilgrims giving next to nothing. Many donativo albergues have closed or are closing because they can't even cover their costs.

I apologize if someone already mentioned all of the above but I really needed to say this.

 

[ChrisT]

Blimey that took a turn for the worse!

It’s gone from me suggesting someone has a decent business model and long may it continue to being told I shouldn’t be on the Camino!

There were 8 Pilgrims all decked out in Osprey and Berghaus gear and it didn’t occur to me for one second that one of them wouldn’t pay.

Anyway…lesson learnt. I guess it’s harder than I thought.

 

[J Willhaus]

Blimey that took a turn for the worse!

It’s gone from me suggesting someone has a decent business model and long may it continue to being told I shouldn’t be on the Camino!

There were 8 Pilgrims all decked out in Osprey and Berghaus gear and it didn’t occur to me for one second that one of them wouldn’t pay.

Anyway…lesson learnt. I guess it’s harder than I thought.

Again, thanks for giving your gift. You can now share what you know with others who may also have misinterpreted the Donativo model.

 

[trecile]

Let's say that every night there are €160 in donations. Even if they were open every day of the year that's €58,400 for 365 days. Out of that rent, water and energy bills need to be paid, not to mention the cost of food, and other consumables like toilet paper and soap that needs to be purchased. And this amount is probably shared by at least two people working hard all day to clean and cook for pilgrims. Hardly the road to riches - or even a middle class lifestyle!

 

[trecile]

I think that @ChrisT has been sufficiently educated on the economic reality of operating a donativo albergue, so I will close this thread with a quote from the OP.

Long May they continue!