Knights Templar and other nonsense!

[Bradypus]

A couple of weeks ago someone posted a question about some etched and painted rocks on the Camino Frances. The work of a Dutch artist around 1999 but the OP had been told that they were the work of the Knights Templar and were repainted from time to time by local communities. A myth in the making. Another dodgy claim which amused me when I read it some time ago was that the tiraboleiros who swing the Botafumeiro are Eastern Orthodox priests. Given the troubled history of relations between eastern and western Christianity that was never a very likely notion!

Since reading about the painted rocks I've been wondering what other pieces of nonsense people have heard or read about the Caminos. "Facts" which turned out to be no such thing. And in my more frivolous moments I've been wondering what other pieces of nonsense it might be fun to seed and see if they establish themselves! Suggestions?

 

[mazzarina]

And in my more frivolous moments I've been wondering what other pieces of nonsense it might be fun to seed and see if they establish themselves! Suggestions?

It's traditional that, when you arrive in Santiago de Compostela, you must visit the Plaza de las Platerías and kiss the noses of the horses in the fountain.

 

[Anthony Rocco]

I prefer to call these sorts of things "myths and legends" rather than nonsense. I actually was the source of a myth on the first camino I walked. Here's the story: I started to limp at the top of the hill at San Juan. It got worse as I walked toward Ages. I suddenly lost any support on the right side of my body. I collapsed in a heap. Peregrinos behind me stopped to help. When they saw I couldn't walk, one ran ahead to alert the authorities. Another carried my pack. Two others helped me limp my way to town. When we arrived, it seemed like the whole village and other peregrinos had heard about "The Cripple." There was no hospital there, so I was taken to the albergue and put in a lower bunk that was fortunately near the shower. I slept for an hour or so, then got up, took a shower and felt good. I walked out of the albergue down the street to a restaurant. Villagers had their hands over the faces proclaiming "Madre de Dios. Un miraculo!!!" When I got to the restaurant, four young ladies started grilling me with questions. It turned out they were four Australian nurses. They said they assumed I had a stroke, but it was clear that I had aggravated a nerve near my hips, it fell out of place and everything fell with it. I had obviously done a poor job packing, putting too much weight on the one side. All the way from there to Santiago, I heard various versions of "The Miracle of the Cripple." I always chuckled, knowing the truth.

I assume many of the myths are simply tales that are told related to real events that are somehow fractured by each subsequent teller.

 

[naplesdon]

What comes to mind immediately to me is the history of the Monastery and Hospital at San Anton near Castrojeriz. Run by Templars who were stance supporters of the Crusades and arch enemies of the Muslims and yet they’re there to serve in the honor of an eastern saint from Egypt. Reb Scott has published a brilliant little book about its history but there is so much we don’t know about. The Monastery survive for 100’s of year under Muslim rule in Spain.

 

[CWBuff]

It's traditional that, when you arrive in Santiago de Compostela, you must visit the Plaza de las Platerías and kiss the noses of the horses in the fountain.

DANG! I missed doing that.....

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Minor in the world of these things, but was told on a first autumn camino that the crocuses in bloom were for saffron and were part of the attraction for Romans to move it out of Spain and back along the road to Rome itself for scented and colourful cuisine. A plausible fiction except that I gather now that the crocuses we see in the fall are actually poisonous...

 

[NorthernLight]

… but it was clear that I had aggravated a nurse near my hips, it fell out of place and everything fell with it.

What was the nurse doing there? I suppose what you meant to say, was having aggravated her, she put a temporary curse on you….

 

[wisepilgrim]

It's traditional that, when you arrive in Santiago de Compostela, you must visit the Plaza de las Platerías and kiss the noses of the horses in the fountain.

Wait, so we are supposed to bathe in that fountain AND kiss the noses? Got it.

 

[naplesdon]

I hope that he meant "nerve." Oh well, we shall learn.

 

[CWBuff]

All the way from there to Santiago, I heard various versions of "The Miracle of the Cripple." I always chuckled, knowing the truth.

I assume many of the myths are simply tales that are told related to real events that are somehow fractured by each subsequent teller.

I can absolutely relate. Nothing to do with Camino but in "my previous life" aka ACW Living History\Reenactment I did become one of "The Ghosts of Gettysburg" on one of the Paranormal sites.

Then there was a practical joke some of my friends played on my birthday (June 30th, so for 13 some years I was pretty much in Gettysburg getting ready for the Big Event -the battle anniversary July 1-3) by presenting me with the so-called "Chronicles" that was a compendium of a sort of MY (i.e. the real me - Allan, not the character I portrayed in LH) involvement in ACW (Apparently with a rank of Maj-Gen I proudly commanded I Bahamas Beachcombers Corps and the likes of such...) .
it generated a lot of 'talk' on couple of ACW\military forums we were members of at the time and since those are "on the Net".... well... you can see where I am going with this
For YEARS I had people coming up to me and asking me if I know anything about Maj-General <insert my last name> ant "The Lost Chronicles of..." and if I was somehow related to "him"

I always chuckled, knowing the truth.

 

[trecile]

I think of the so called "custom" of burning clothes at Finisterre. It's a dangerous practice with modern origins.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

DANG! I missed doing that.....

A great pity. Pilgrims whofsil to kiss the noses of the horses on their first visit are obliged to osculate their posteriors if they return to Santiago. Enjoy.

 

[Bradypus]

A great pity. Pilgrims whofsil to kiss the noses of the horses on their first visit are obliged to osculate their posteriors if they return to Santiago. Enjoy.

Their own or those of the horses? I'm not that supple these days.

 

[CWBuff]

@Gerard Griffin - I guess I have to return to the Camino then. I mean, cant POSSIBLY miss out on that one!

 

[mspath]

Here in Spanish and English is a brief discussion by Carlos Rey of some realities and legends regarding the place name of Santiago de Compostela published 31/01/21 on elespanol.com.
Enjoy your reading as we all dream of a future visit.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

There is that haunted spot on the camino where it is best for pilgrims to run through. I'm not sure where it is but I've heard it is uphill.

 

[Anthony Rocco]

What was the nurse doing there? I suppose what you meant to say, was having aggravated her, she put a temporary curse on you….

Another reader pointed that out to me. When I reread it, I couldn't stop laughing. Now THAT would be a great myth: aggravated nurse leaves peregrino crippled...but there is a miraculous recovery and shrine is built to the Madonna of The Cripple. Of course, it was a typo. I meant to type nerve. I edited the story. Not as interesting now. Nurse was better!

 

[rappahannock_rev]

There is that haunted spot on the camino where it is best for pilgrims to run through. I'm not sure where it is but I've heard it is uphill.

Perhaps a reference to this spot on the Camino Ingles, just outside SdeC?

 

[Tincatinker]

the tiraboleiros who swing the Botafumeiro are Eastern Orthodox priests

That would explain why, in tradition, any Pilgrim who manages to catch the Botafumeiro will be instantly transported to the Monastery of the Pantokratoros on Mount Athos.

I think of the so called "custom" of burning clothes at Finisterre. It's a dangerous practice with modern origins.

That "tradition" was invented by Decathalon, Patagonia and Cotswold Outdoor amongst others in order to generate replacement purchasing

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Perhaps [the haunted place is] a reference to this spot on the Camino Ingles, just outside SdeC?

Looks like it's missing a hill but it's as good as any and better than most.

 

[tpmchugh]

What comes to mind immediately to me is the history of the Monastery and Hospital at San Anton near Castrojeriz. Run by Templars who were stance supporters of the Crusades and arch enemies of the Muslims and yet they’re there to serve in the honor of an eastern saint from Egypt. Reb Scott has published a brilliant little book about its history but there is so much we don’t know about. The Monastery survive for 100’s of year under Muslim rule in Spain.

Great little book. I tried to purchase it but the payment wouldn't work. I contacted Rebecca and she sent me a copy and said I should make a donation to the homeless. Been making that payment monthly ever since. Sorry, way off topic.

 

[tpmchugh]

One great myth is Santiago Matamoros charging on his white horse at the battle of Clavijo. The battle never happened and is just a myth.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

There is that haunted spot on the camino where it is best for pilgrims to run through. I'm not sure where it is but I've heard it is uphill.

It's Ciruena.

 

[CWBuff]

Suntebanez de Valdeinglesias
Jardin del Brujo

...You've got to pick up every stitch, Mmm, must be the season of the witch...

 

[Gerard Griffin]

It seems a bit ungrateful to so much enjoy the myths of the past, while declining to create any new ones for those pilgrims who will walk this way in the future.

My Camino legends. Granon. San Anton. Peaceable Kingdom.

 

[CWBuff]

What about The Valker on Camino Finisterre?

 

[Anthony Rocco]

Of all the legends, arguably the most famous was immortalized in the Chanson de Roland. The actual battle near Roncesvalles involved those pesky Basques routing the French army sent by Charlemagne. In the Chanson, it's not the Basques; it's Muslims. So much of history has been rewritten to suit the times. And it's still happening.

 

[dick bird]

t's traditional that, when you arrive in Santiago de Compostela, you must visit the Plaza de las Platerías and kiss the noses of the horses in the fountain.

Locals have a custom of inviting newcomers to see the blue fish in the fountain. As you bend over to look, they splash water in your face. Hilarious.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

What comes to mind immediately to me is the history of the Monastery and Hospital at San Anton near Castrojeriz. Run by Templars who were stance supporters of the Crusades and arch enemies of the Muslims and yet they’re there to serve in the honor of an eastern saint from Egypt. Reb Scott has published a brilliant little book about its history but there is so much we don’t know about. The Monastery survive for 100’s of year under Muslim rule in Spain.

Don, evidently the brilliant little book didn't make a big impression, or perhaps you're enumerating more odd myths of San Anton? The place was never run by Knights Templar, even though there's lots of unsubstantiated Templar moonshine associated with it. (anything mysterious or woowoo is somehow "templar" around here!)
I think I shall send a pile of "San Anton: A Little History" booklets to Ivar, to sell in his store.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

Don, evidently the brilliant little book didn't make a big impression, or perhaps you're enumerating more odd myths of San Anton? The place was never run by Knights Templar, even though there's lots of unsubstantiated Templar moonshine associated with it. (anything mysterious or woowoo is somehow "templar" around here!)
I think I shall send a pile of "San Anton: A Little History" booklets to Ivar, to sell in his store.

I'll buy one!

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

It's Ciruena.

I have trouble with that name, I recognize it but I can't remember the name when I want to use it; Chernobyl is what comes to mind. Perhaps a new myth about the radioactivity there could be started.

 

[Kathar1na]

[…] someone posted a question about some etched and painted rocks on the Camino Frances. […] had been told that they were the work of the Knights Templar and were repainted from time to time by local communities. [… ] the tiraboleiros who swing the Botafumeiro are Eastern Orthodox priests

Priceless …!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have trouble with that name, I recognize it but I can't remember the name when I want to use it; Chernobyl is what comes to mind. Perhaps a new myth about the radioactivity there could be started.

Going off piste comes to mind. It's been done before.

 

[Gerard Griffin]

I find it helps to go on the piste and stay on it

 

[CWBuff]

I have trouble with that name, I recognize it but I can't remember the name when I want to use it; Chernobyl is what comes to mind. Perhaps a new myth about the radioactivity there could be started.

OUCH
quite a difference even with the name
Cirueña is "plum", Chernobyl is "black weed"
Now... as long as we dragged Chernobyl into it - for eons there were articles in that "Bible of TRUTH" - The National Enquirer about the giant chicken of Chernobyl

 

[Bradypus]

Now... as long as we dragged Chernobyl into it - for eons there were articles in that "Bible of TRUTH" - The National Enquirer about the giant chicken of Chernobyl

Excellent! Now we know the true story behind the Santo Domingo chicken business - Spiderman-style radiation induced regeneration....

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Excellent! Now we know the true story behind the Santo Domingo chicken business - Spiderman-style radiation induced regeneration....

Oh look! @Bradypus brought us back on topic by mentioning the Santo Domingo chickens!

 

[CWBuff]

Alive n kickin

 

[NorthernLight]

New myth:
All true pilgrims must have collected at least one bag of trash along the way, and deposited it in the proper garbage bins in order to stay at the albergues… FACT.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Alive n kickin

Now I know why I never saw them the two times I ws in Santo Domingo.

 

[markie6]

New myth:
All true pilgrims must have collected at least one bag of trash along the way, and deposited it in the proper garbage bins in order to stay at the albergues… FACT.

trashigrinos

 

[CWBuff]

Now I know why I never saw them the two times I ws in Santo Domingo.

See - thats another Camino myth that you can see them at a whim any given time you pass SDdC
In reality you need to make an appointment and you can do so ONLY in Pilgrims' office at SJPdP
IIRC - the visiting hours are 10:00 AM - 10:02 AM AEDT. All other times they are busy either sleeping, dancing the famous (SDdC) Chicken Dance) or laying golden eggs

 

[lalaone]

New myths or fables.... I somehow got the idea that when beds were unavailable, pilgrims should be prepared to be put up in stables alongside livestock. (This was in Brierley’s guide, I believe – 2nd edition, 2007.) Actually, I can well believe this occurred in the not-so-distant past – for Brierley or people whose stories he heard? I never encountered it personally. It sounded grand to me, yet I can see how a revival of this story might reduce a few numbers today.

 

[Bradypus]

I somehow got the idea that when beds were unavailable, pilgrims should be prepared to be put up in stables alongside livestock. (This was in Brierley’s guide, I believe – 2nd edition, 2007.)

The smell might be a problem but most cattle are tolerant beasts and wouldn't complain too much.

 

[CWBuff]

New myths or fables.... I somehow got the idea that when beds were unavailable, pilgrims should be prepared to be put up in stables alongside livestock.

Wrong Pilgrimage! Try Camino Bethlehemio

 

[Tincatinker]

I somehow got the idea that when beds were unavailable, pilgrims should be prepared to be put up in stables alongside livestock

In my experience of some of the traditional Fondas in the late '60's & the '70's the accommodations provided for the valuable Mules and expensive Horses was of far better comfort than that afforded the humans.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

In my experience of some of the traditional Fondas in the late '60's & the '70's the accommodations provided for the valuable Mules and expensive Horses was of far better comfort than that afforded the humans.

@Tincatinker, you are often a wealth of very interesting trivia on so many forum topics, even when you occasionally wander off. I always enjoy your input, quirky and unusual as it can be.

 

[MichaelC]

I know a guy who insists that the Camino is an ancient pagan pilgrimage route that has been used since paleolithic times. Another says it was a Druid route that the Celts followed to worship the sun god at Fisterre, and that burning your clothes then bathing in the sea is a way to honor the rituals of the ancients.

For actual historic context: we know very little about the Druids, and most of that comes from Julius Caesar's accounts. Pretty much everything we read about them is made up.

 

[truthseeker]

One of the pleasures of the Camino is to collect and enjoy its myths and legends. People have made and repeated them in every culture, for they express our natural impulse to make sense of our existence here.

 

[Kathar1na]

One of the pleasures of the Camino is to collect and enjoy its myths and legends. People have made and repeated them in every culture, for they express our natural impulse to make sense of our existence here.

Aren’t you giving this stuff credit that it doesn’t deserve ? Before the Age of Enlightenment, people did believe that a hanged young man on the gallows could be kept alive for weeks by a saint holding him up and that hens being roasted on a spit over a roaring fire could become alive again and fly away, and we find delight in hearing these ancient myths and legends.

But 16 pieces of abstract rock art created in 1999 by a contemporary Dutch artist during his pilgrimage to Santiago who documented his Camino walk on his website for all to read and with photos to be viewed by anyone around the world - and instead we are told these rock paintings had been created by the Knights Templar (and it‘s always them and never any other of these medieval orders) and are regularly repainted by the locals? Puh-lease … whoever tells you that is either gullible themselves or pulling your legs.

 

[good_old_shoes]

New myths or fables.... I somehow got the idea that when beds were unavailable, pilgrims should be prepared to be put up in stables alongside livestock. (This was in Brierley’s guide, I believe – 2nd edition, 2007.) Actually, I can well believe this occurred in the not-so-distant past – for Brierley or people whose stories he heard? I never encountered it personally. It sounded grand to me, yet I can see how a revival of this story might reduce a few numbers today.

I once asked for a spot to sleep in the stables/barn of a farm when stranded during a bad storm in France (I would have liked that!). Was declined, sadly.

But I was offered a nice guest room and dinner instead by the farmers. French hospitality .

But I guess you're right and the numbers of pilgrims would be much less, if the alternative to an albergue bed wouldn't be a hotel but a spot next to the cows!

 

[Kathar1na]

Fwiw, sleeping in stables alongside livestock must be an urban legend or a movie scenario . All the farms I have ever seen - products of 60 years of the Common Agricultural Policy - have a separation between the place where the straw and the hay is stored and the place where the livestock lies or stands on the straw or eats the hay.

 

[Bert45]

Their own or those of the horses? I'm not that supple these days.

Perhaps you're not, but there is are two gargoyles on the roof-line of the Parador in Santiago who are (or were). One is on the south front, the other is on the east side.

 

[WGroleau]

Of all the legends, arguably the most famous was immortalized in the Chanson de Roland. The actual battle near Roncesvalles involved those pesky Basques routing the French army sent by Charlemagne. In the Chanson, it's not the Basques; it's Muslims. So much of history has been rewritten to suit the times. And it's still happening.

Seeing all the crap posted as fact on social media, I find myself thinking about history, where scholars carefully research ancient sources to figure out what really happened. I think, "How do we know all those ancient writers weren't just passing on garbage made up by some dingbat?"

 

[Bert45]

How about this gem from Wikidpedia: (about the Botafumeiro) " ... but during certain important religious holidays it is attached to the pulley mechanism, filled with 40 kilograms (88 lb) of charcoal and incense."
You can find that figure (40 kg) all over the internet. Copied and pasted without a thought.

 

[WalkingInGers]

Did you know that the Knights Templar have meetings throughout Europe?

 

[alexwalker]

Did you know that the Knights Templar have meetings throughout Europe?

No, we don't.

 

[WalkingInGers]

The Knights Templar have existed since the death of its Master by Philippe le Bel, king of France highly influenced by the then Pope of Rome.

 

[naplesdon]

We can trace our lineage back to Celtic times when we fought with Bonnie Prince Charles and were driven out of England at the battle of Culloden.

 

[Stumbledore]

The Witches of Galicia. It was at the end of the day on our 2021 Camino Frances when you are so calorie deprived you begin to think of rocks and sticks as possible sources of nutrition. We settled into the lovely Pension Albergue Los Caminantes, dropped our packs, showered, dressed in tomorrow's clothes and headed out to the closest bar, the Meson Ribadiso, for a well earned supper. A few minutes before we left the Pension, the skies opened up in a torrential downpour, a real frog drowner! We momentarily debated waiting out the storm but our desire to eat tossed any common sense to the curb. Even the thunder and lighting wasn't going to stop us! We quickly waded up the cobblestone street, trying to hop on the larger, drier stones to keep from soaking our only pair of non-waterproof shoes. As we entered the warm and lovely Meson, we noted a toy witch doll perched atop the beer and wine case - a whimsical nod to the witch folklore of Galicia. While enjoying a cold Estrella and hot meal, a tremendous bolt of lightning struck near us and we witnessed a blue arc of electricity leave the large polished brass beer tap and connect with the poor waiter who was holding a metal tray with a fellow peregrino's meal! He yelped more out of surprise than pain, and fortunately, recovered quickly to deliver the meal. At the same time this bizarre event occurred, the lights in the eyes of the witch on top of the bar lit up!!! Like our poor waiter, we were in shock! So my friends, beware of the Witches of Galicia and do stop by the Meson!

 

[truthseeker]

Aren’t you giving this stuff credit that it doesn’t deserve ? Before the Age of Enlightenment, people did believe that a hanged young man on the gallows could be kept alive for weeks by a saint holding him up and that hens being roasted on a spit over a roaring fire could become alive again and fly away, and we find delight in hearing these ancient myths and legends.

But 16 pieces of abstract rock art created in 1999 by a contemporary Dutch artist during his pilgrimage to Santiago who documented his Camino walk on his website for all to read and with photos to be viewed by anyone around the world - and instead we are told these rock paintings had been created by the Knights Templar (and it‘s always them and never any other of these medieval orders) and are regularly repainted by the locals? Puh-lease … whoever tells you that is either gullible themselves or pulling your legs.

The bit about the 20th c Dutch artist's work was dealt with earlier in this thread. Of course, anyone who knew what there is to know about the knights templar would see that attribution as a hoax. I certainly don't think they were medieval, and actually did not accord them any importance in my walk. Let us not argue about medieval legends. I just find delight, as you say, in them and in the history of the Camino.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Sahagún's "halfway" certificate mentions the myth of some of Charlemagne's knight's lances rooting and leaving out to indicate that though those knights would die in the day's battle they would have eternal life.

Of course if your main weapon has turned into a tree your chances of dying is going to increase.

More here:

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/camino-trivia.67346/#post-844188

 

[Kathar1na]

I just find delight, as you say, in them and in the history of the Camino

So do I and I often find the historical facts that lie buried underneath a legend more interesting and fascinating than the legend itself. I misunderstood your comment - I thought that you were referring to current “myths”. This thread has now become a mixture of comments about “a current story and other nonsense”, about well-known century old myths, and about myths that are made up while writing a post for this thread .

 

[suirtean62]

As we say in Ireland never let the truth get in the way of a good story

 

[Anthony Rocco]

Just finished reading Paddy Woodworth's The Basque Country, a masterpiece I have wanted to read for a long time since I've crisscrossed that area on various camino paths and will be back there again in May. Talk about myths, legends, complete falsehoods...

Paddy details all of these in great detail. I believe the following answers everyone's comments beautifully: All nationalisms are inventions to some degree, replacing the diversity of reality with a comforting homogeneity. As the French historian Ernest Renan put, "getting its history wrong is part of being a nation."

And so it is not just for nations, but for groups all the way down to the most basic of all: families. I am sure we all have stories that may be, should I say, slight exagerations???

 

[trecile]

One of the pleasures of the Camino is to collect and enjoy its myths and legends.

Except when they are destructive or dangerous like burning clothes or anything else at Finisterre, or swimming in the notoriously dangerous ocean there - it's not the Costa da Morte for nothing.

 

[David Tallan]

Seeing all the crap posted as fact on social media, I find myself thinking about history, where scholars carefully research ancient sources to figure out what really happened. I think, "How do we know all those ancient writers weren't just passing on garbage made up by some dingbat?"

Responding to

Of all the legends, arguably the most famous was immortalized in the Chanson de Roland. The actual battle near Roncesvalles involved those pesky Basques routing the French army sent by Charlemagne. In the Chanson, it's not the Basques; it's Muslims. So much of history has been rewritten to suit the times. And it's still happening.

The Chanson de Roland (and the other medieval accounts of Roland) was written hundreds of years after the events it was "reporting" on and was a product of its time, much as the Arthurian stories were written hundreds of years after the events they purport to recount took place and reflected their times.

It is somewhat different when the accounts were contemporary. Let's take the story of the jousting of Suero de Quiñones at Hospital de Orbigo, but that nice long bridge. One might think it falls into the same category of mythical tales of chivalry. And, to be sure, some modern accounts may stray in that direction. But it was actually one of the best documented medieval tourneys with extensive contemporary accounts. At least, so says a friend of mine, a professor of medieval history specializing in medieval tourneys with numerous academic publications in that field.

 

[MichaelC]

King of the Pilgrimage

I have not been able to confirm this, so I'll just put it here with "other nonsense" - it's too good of a story to keep to myself. A friend found this in Régine Pernoud's history book, Richard Coeur de Lion:

In the Middle Ages, when pilgrims traveled in groups and did not have to fear attacks as they did in Palestine, they always hurried especially on the last stage, and the one who arrived first and saw the towers of Santiago de Compostela or the hills of Rome before the others was named "Roy du Pèlerinage", King of the Pilgrimage - this term has become a family name and is considered the origin of the names Roy, Rey or Leroy, which so many French families bear.​

 

[Kathar1na]

Roy du Pèlerinage

If interested have a look at the entry for Roi, Roy, Leroy, Rey in the French Encyclopédie sur saint Jacques et Compostelle. It starts with contrairement à une idée répandue - contrary to a wide-spread idea …

And, in contrast to a lot of written output about this story, this website actually provides sources for what it claims to be true . The website reflects the work of Denise Péricard-Méa, a French scholar with focus on the medieval pilgrimage to Santiago, and her collaborators.

Encyclopédie sur saint Jacques et Compostelle

Encyclopédie permettant de mieux connaître saint Jacques, Compostelle, les chemins de Saint-Jacques et le patrimoine jacquaire à partir d'un index de mots clés

www.saint-jacques.info

 

[truthseeker]

Myths and legends are not actions. Usually they're limited to passive enjoyment...

 

[me123]

I found this artifact near a lost medieval hall strangely enough one of the previous occupants Thomas De La Launde had templar connections through his ancestors, having said that a visitor or later occupant of the hall could of owned it.The silver twisted wire i believe represents St Anthony's robe cord girdle.To me the window in San Anton monastery looks like the Tau's are encircled with representations of hermits girdles with the ends hanging down to form a pattern in the window. It could be surviving Templars re-grouped calling themselves The Knights of St Anthony. They did in Leith Scotland so could of done the same in castrojeriz
Among my Masonic illustrations I have many definitions of the Tau. Some being that it means T.H. or Templum Hierosolyma, Temple of Jerusalem; or that it means a treasure, or a place were treasure is buried. The Tau is a figure constructed of five lines and is considered an important emblem or badge in Royal arch Masonry. There is also a triple cross like a T of the Egyptian, Roman, or English Alphabet.

Among my Masonic illustrations I have many definitions of the Tau. Some being that it means T.H. or Templum Hierosolyma, Temple of Jerusalem; or that it means a treasure, or a place were treasure is buried. The Tau is a figure constructed of five lines and is considered an important emblem or badge in Royal arch Masonry. There is also a triple cross like a T of the Egyptian, Roman, or English Alphabet.

What is the connection to Leith? This symbol was the symbol of the Knight Templars of St Anthony of Leith. Their Church, burying place with gardens were in St Anthony’s Wynd-an ally off the Kirkgate which no longer exists. Their Preceptory however lay in the area running from the Kirkgate Shopping Centre and Community Centre to Yardheads (Yard in Yardheads incidentally comes from Old High German Yarde meaning a Monastic garth or wall) and Henderson Gardens. Evidence for this comes from a Charter of King James VI which says All the Croft of Arable land contiguous to St Anthony’s garden, and also all that place and piece of ground whereon the Church and Preceptory of St Anthony of the Knights Templar stood”, which during the Siege of Leith bore the same name, in common with property I most parishes in Scotland which was held by the Knights Templar. Some houses in Edinburgh and Leith bore the Badge of the Order, a Tau Cross with the motto Lavs Deo” to show that they held the Superiority, but not, as is generally supposed indicating that they themselves occupied the premises.

 

[me123]

Templar cross?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I have studied the historic record of the Antonine Monastery at Castrojeriz, and there are no Templars involved in its administration, foundation, ministry, or worship. The Tau symbol came from Egypt, the same place where St. Antony lived. The returning crusaders (there were plenty of non-Templar crusaders) brought what they believed were the bones of Antony with them back to France, where the monastic order took root. It spread all over Europe and southward to Spain, where it blossomed with two "ecomiendas," or motherhouse/farmsteads: one in Olite, another, with a hospital, in Castrojeriz - at a site that was already populated. The Tau symbol figured much in their uniform and architecture. Another legend holds that St. Francis of Assisi walked the Way of St. James, and was so impressed with the Antonines at Castrojeriz that he adopted the Tau as a symbol of his new order, too! (Pure legend, no historical basis.)
Europe 1000-1950 was a very religious place. Not every Tau is Franciscan or Antonine. Not every Jerusalem cross is Templar. Not every Antony is Antonine. We of the post-religious world look for something meaningful in the ruins of what our grandparents threw away and exploded. A lot of the time, we come up with a lot of our own crackpot nonsense.

 

[VNwalking]

We of the post-religious world look for something meaningful in the ruins of what our grandparents threw away and exploded. A lot of the time, we come up with a lot of our own crackpot nonsense.

Amen sister.

 

[WalkingInGers]

I wish the title of this thread would not include the words « and other nonsense. »

 

[Bradypus]

I wish the title of this thread would not include the words « and other nonsense. »

The two examples which I mention in the original post are demonstrably false by a very basic enquiry. I asked if others had similar examples of specious claims which do not bear any serious examination. I think that in the circumstances "nonsense" is justified

 

[Kathar1na]

Templar cross?

Nope. It is the kind of nonsense that is meant by the second half of the tread title and perhaps due to the misunderstanding that the first half is an invitation to post more of the same.

Someone took the image on Wikipedia of the rose window of the Gothic church of the San Antón monastery - a symmetric and geometric pattern typical for Gothic architecture -, picked some lines out of this pattern and drew two perpendicular lines in red over them, with all of them ending in (open) triangles. It took me less than five minutes to find two other (and may I say even better and more obvious) examples of Gothic masonry where this can easily be seen and done if one would find any meaning in doing so. I could probably find a dozen such examples if I wanted to.

Put four or eight circles or oval shapes inside a circle so that they touch each other and you can see two perpendicular lines ending in triangles - in addition to a myriad of other patterns of lines and curves.


""

 

[Kathar1na]

Put four or eight circles or oval shapes inside a circle so that they touch each other and you can see two perpendicular lines ending in triangles

By way of an illustration, with thanks to Amazon.com :

 

[JCarpenter]

Here's one we should all perpetuate: There's a legend that says that if you find two pilgrims named Julia and Dennis sitting at a cafe you should buy them a drink and say hello.

 

[VNwalking]

By way of an illustration, with thanks to Amazon.com :

Brilliant.
But are we sure those breeze blocks don't have Templar connections?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Brilliant.
But are we sure those breeze blocks don't have Templar connections?

Vira, didn't you KNOW the Templar Knights invented the breeze block? Jeez.

 

[dick bird]

Europe 1000-1950 was a very religious place

1950 or 1050? That is a serious question. I just wanted to clarify.

A lot is made of the idea that all kinds of symbolic meanings were incorporated into the design of Templar buildings. However, this practice was apparently not confined to the Knights Templar. Churches and Cathedrals were built according to an elaborate set of numerical principles.

¨Augustinián patristics refers to numerical theory in Civitatis Dei (ACTo no. 20). As well as the perfection of the number six, which is the first number that is the sum of its parts (Civ. Dei.XI-30), the number 7 represents the seventh day, recognizing the rest day of the Lord; (Civ. Dei. XI.31). Other significant numbers were twelve (=3x4 Civ. Dei XX.5.3), and one thousand, which is the perfect number for the fullness of time - a flat square figure (10 x 10), given a similar height, it is made cubic and, multiplied by ten to give a thousand (Civ. Dei XX.7.2).21 The influence of such metrics on the design of Tortosa cathedral is clear; six in the modules of the naves, seven in the heptagonal layout of the apse, and the large keystone of the presbytery, of 10 palms, is located at a height of 100 palms, which makes a thousand¨
Design and medieval construction: The case of Tortosa cathedral (1345-1441)Author(s): Josep Lluís i Ginovart and Agustí Costa JoverSource: Construction History , 2014, Vol. 29, No. 1 (2014), pp. 1-24Published by: The Construction History Society

 

[VNwalking]

didn't you KNOW the Templar Knights invented the breeze block? Jeez.

Ohhhhh. Now the penny drops. The fulfillment of a little-known part of Jacques Moloy's curse from the flames. Gotcha.

1950 or 1050?

In the context of Rebekah's post, 1050 makes no sense - unless average generation length in your family is a wee bit longer than it is for the rest of us?

 

[Rebekah Scott]

1000 - 1950 was chosen on purpose. Europe was quite religious, give or take a few Reformations and Renaissances, up to about the end of WW 2, when everyone started staying home on Sunday morning to watch cartoons.

 

[Pafayac]

Jacques Moloy

Jacques de Molay
Albergue Jacques de Molay at Terradillo de los Templarios.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Jacques de Molay
Albergue Jacques de Molay at Terradillo de los Templarios.

As an aside, I've calculated that the fuente just past the albergue can be considered to be a halfway point on the Camino Francés. It is as many degrees west of the Port de Notre Dame in SJPdP as it is degrees east of the cathedral in SdC.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/attachments/screenshot_20230513-152636-png.147002/

 

[VNwalking]

Jacques de Molay
Albergue Jacques de Molay at Terradillo de los Templarios.

I didn't know that. Thank you sir.

And you may not know about typos, perhaps?)

 

[mspath]

I didn't know that. Thank you sir.

And you may not know about typos, perhaps?)

I certainly know about typos; nevertheless I persevere although it is past my bedtime...
The Temple and Jacques de Molay had and continue to have an immense impact on Paris which is summarized in this brief description of what was, what changed and what still is....And so to bed.

 

[VNwalking]

The Temple and Jacques de Molay had and continue to have an immense impact on Paris which is summarized in this brief description of what was, what changed and what still is

Thank you for that link, Margaret.
And of course not only in Paris, all over Europe.

I was refreshing my memory of the Templars in London and came across this very interesting link.

The Knights Templar in English towns | Urban History | Cambridge Core

The Knights Templar in English towns

www.cambridge.org

[Sorry, @Bradypus - thread hijack over.]

 

[David Tallan]

As an aside, I've calculated that the fuente just past the albergue can be considered to be a halfway point on the Camino Francés. It is as many degrees west of the Port de Notre Dame in SJPdP as it is degrees east of the cathedral in SdC.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/attachments/screenshot_20230513-152636-png.147002/

Only if one believes that the Camino Frances starts in SJPdP.