CS Peregrina
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Hola: I finished my second camino this spring. Like another peregrino said , after my first camino I decided to learn some Spanish. I am glad that I did. The experience is better with more understanding. I have a long way to go with learning Spanish but I am still learning more for my next camino, which I believe will come but I currently have no plans. On my second camino I was much more comfortable in restaurants. The variety of things that I actually orderd from a menu increased much with increased knowledge. I was glad to help others who needed help translating. I walked during holy week and spoke very elementary spanish but the many Spanish families on the camino at the time were most friendly and very patient with me. Italki.com was very helpful for me. I wish you the best of luck with spanish and a buen camino.How do you think your language abilities affect your Camino experience?
If you speak only English…
Has that hampered your ability to connect with other pilgrims?
Has that hampered your ability to connect with people along the way (bar tenders, servers, store owners, albergue/innkeepers, etc.)
Has that enhanced your ability to experience the “liminality” or otherness of the Camino?
Has that enhanced your experience in some other way?
If you speak some Spanish…
Has that enhanced your ability to connect with other pilgrims and/or other people along the way?
Has that hindered your experience in some way (you end up having to do all the logistics, you find yourself quickly out of your depth, you are misunderstood or you misunderstand, etc.)?
If you speak fluent Spanish…
How do you think your experience is different from a monolingual English speaker?
If you speak English and another language (not Spanish)…
What advantages or disadvantages have you noticed?
Please share stories with me! Did you try to learn Spanish before you did the Camino? How did that affect your experience?
I also recommend an immersion course. For residents of the USA, studying in Mexico is much more economical than in Spain and there are some wonderful programs.I speak Spanish and found that, being able to talk to locals gave me a lot of insight that I think many non-Spanish speaking pilgrims missed. Of course, I am also nosy, so I have a lot of questions about everything and go out looking for folks to interview.
Re. learning Spanish, I would recommend taking an "immersion" course - maybe in Spain - to improve your Spanish. It's a more natural way to learn. Classes haven't helped me much, trying to learn other languages.
When I was hospitalario, MANY of the Italians who stayed could not speak English and claimed to not understand Spanish. (Hard to believe, since my Spanish allowed me to pass an Italian A1 test without lessons.)I walked with Italians, all of whom could get by in English and a little Spanish but I'm grateful that I'm fluent in Italian.
You don't have to be fluent for it to make your life richer. I've spoken Spanish to Brazilians and understood their Portuguese. I got four girls to laugh by speaking one greeting in Korean to a guy who had just told them (apparently lying) that he could speak fluent Korean. (I only know that and one other sentence in Korean.) Even though my Spanish is not great, it's good enough to understand a lot of Italian. Bonus: more than one research study has shown that people with a second language are less likely to get Alzheimer's.... walking the Camino has taught me that those who are truly fluent in another language have another soul. Something about language/culture that changes us in our very core. ..
In around five months as hospitalero voluntario on C. Frances, I was surprised at how few Spanish peregrinos came through. Perhaps they take other routes to avoid the crowds. But two of them complained bitterly in our guestbook about the volunteers staff "not speaking Spanish." Truth is, we always had at least one, usually two, fluent in Spanish. But most were Dutch, most had some Spanish, and all spoke two or more languages besides Dutch...., my sense was that the locals appreciated the efforts of those trying to speak Spanish, ...
Since you have other languages, pretend you don't speak English. I walk into a shop in Germany, and ask "Italiano? Español?" I only reveal I know English when all else fails.I... been a little frustrated that so many people speak such good English and there are fewer opportunities to use Spanish ....
My other languages are Polish (which no one speaks), German (which even today is not so popular), some Maori (which won't take me far in Europe!) and after two years of Swedish all I remember is "do you understand?" And "I watched tv" which I don't do!Since you have other languages, pretend you don't speak English. I walk into a shop in Germany, and ask "Italiano? Español?" I only reveal I know English when all else fails.
When I was hospitalario, MANY of the Italians who stayed could not speak English and claimed to not understand Spanish. (Hard to believe, since my Spanish allowed me to pass an Italian A1 test without lessons.)
I so wish I too was multilingual. Ashamed to say I am fluent only in English. As soon as I finished my first camino I started Spanish lessons. Have been doing them now for almost two years but am a slow learner. While nowhere near fluent, it made a huge difference to my second camino. I had sufficient of what I call pigeon Spanish to read signs, have simple conversations with fellow pilgrims, reserve beds, book transport, read menus, politely order food and get advice from pharmacists. Greatly enhanced my experience of the camino and helped me make connections with way more people. The secret is not caring about making mistakes though I still blush about telling one hospitalero that I was hot as in sexy instead hot as in the weather was warm.
PS My Spanish also got me heaps more tapas the second camino. First camino it was rare to get tapas with a drink. Second time when I was ordering politely in Spanish I got given tapas all the time!
In a restaurant in SJPDP we overheard someone loudly boasting that she could speak 4 languages so would have no problem on the CF.
Next evening we found ourselves sharing the same dormitory with this lady at Orisson. We were 2 English, one French, one Italian and the " linguistic " pilgrim. She tried her Italian with the Italian pilgrim who understood not a word. In the end the linguist lady asked me to explain in French and surprisingly the Italian understood me!
I understand Dutch (my parents were Dutch immigrants) but I've pretty much lost the speaking ability. I had a great conversation with a Dutchman though. He spoke to me in Dutch (I understood 80-90%) and I replied in a mixture of English / Spanish / Dutch. It was fun and challenging. Sometimes I think I'm more attentive/present to others when I have to work harder to understand. With conversations in my native language sometimes I can tune out or not be as fully present to my conversational partner.Well, I speak 7 languages, and even the Europeans were impressed.I walked with Italians, all of whom could get by in English and a little Spanish but I'm grateful that I'm fluent in Italian. On the CF I got the impression that many hospitaleros and restaurant/bar staff were somewhat conversant in English, some of them extremely good, but I always spoke only Spanish. And I did a fair amount of translating Spanish to Italian. I wish I knew more Dutch, because I met a lot of nice Dutch people on the Camino, esp in Roncesvalles at the albergue.
I would advise anyone to try and learn at least some of the language before you travel to a different country/region. Even if its only basic it shows appropriate respect for your hosts and thus in my experience is always well received no matter how limited your range is. It wil enhance your experience, help you understand what is going on or at least you will be less likely to flounder in most situations. If you don't make the effort, do not expect to be conversed with in your language, and don't be surprised or get upset if you get indifferent reactions.How do you think your language abilities affect your Camino experience?
If you speak only English…
Has that hampered your ability to connect with other pilgrims?
Has that hampered your ability to connect with people along the way (bar tenders, servers, store owners, albergue/innkeepers, etc.)
Has that enhanced your ability to experience the “liminality” or otherness of the Camino?
Has that enhanced your experience in some other way?
If you speak some Spanish…
Has that enhanced your ability to connect with other pilgrims and/or other people along the way?
Has that hindered your experience in some way (you end up having to do all the logistics, you find yourself quickly out of your depth, you are misunderstood or you misunderstand, etc.)?
If you speak fluent Spanish…
How do you think your experience is different from a monolingual English speaker?
If you speak English and another language (not Spanish)…
What advantages or disadvantages have you noticed?
Please share stories with me! Did you try to learn Spanish before you did the Camino? How did that affect your experience?
wonder if he asked for pepino when he meant pimienta . .I speak Spanish relatively well, which certainly has allowed me to have a very rich experiences meeting and speaking with locals, some resulting in great friendships. However, I'm certainly not fluent. I make plenty of mistakes, lack lots of vocabulary, and sometimes just run out of energy for translating. When traveling with non-Spanish speakers, I always feel terrible whenever mis-communications occur (as they do).
One time I wasn't paying attention while my husband ordered breakfast and he ended up with a PICKLE OMELETTE! Yes, a 3 egg omelette studded with sliced little gherkins! I just wasn't listening when he ordered to even know what happened ... I was thinking about my own breakfast! I mean, it was hilarious and all, and it was corrected immediately after we brought it to the waitress' attention (once I stopped laughing).
Most positively, often to the relief of foreign pilgrims, when I could serve as hospitalero in an albergue and as volunteer at the Pilgrims' Office.How do you think your language abilities affect your Camino experience?
wonder if he asked for pepino when he meant pimienta
Recent statistics indicate there are over 41 million native Spanish speakers and over 11 million billingual English/Spanish speakers in the USA. Total population of Spain 46 million. I think you underestimate your country's linguistic abilities!Sad that USA is so big that we do not learn fluency in another language.
Speaking fluent Spanish and passable French and Portuguese immensely enhanced my Camino, allowing me to talk with almost anyone I met, and allowing me to be of service to others - tho the European Portuguese is WAY different from the Brazilian Portuguese I was taught - it was a wonderful, weightless feeling when we had just left Tui (first day in Spain) and a man stopped to tell us the Camino was mismarked at that point and was telling us where to go, and the communication was effortless!!
There was also a great relay translation in Faramello where a German lady who spoke no other languages needed backpack service, and another German interpreted her info to English for me, and I interpreted into Spanish to the backpack service - it was a great team effort!
I'm so glad that you were able to communicate well with all of these groups! You say you are "old." Do you think language abilities are getting better with the younger generations? Or do they just have low expectations of people that are older than they are?I am Galician. I am bilingual Galician/Spanish and fluent in English.
When I speak Spanish my accent is from Madrid (where I live).
Doing my Primitivo I was in albergue O Candido (San Román) talking to a group of young pilgrims from Madrid when a pilgrim from London came to ask the owner for dinner, then I translated his question to the owner in Galician (becuase I only had spoken with him in that language) in front the young pilgrims astonishment, because it is a very unusual situation An old man from Madrid (they thought) speaking Galician and good English.
Recent statistics indicate there are over 41 million native Spanish speakers and over 11 million billingual English/Spanish speakers in the USA. Total population of Spain 46 million. I think you underestimate your country's linguistic abilities!
I'm so glad that you were able to communicate well with all of these groups! You say you are "old." Do you think language abilities are getting better with the younger generations? Or do they just have low expectations of people that are older than they are?
Guy working a crossword puzzle, thinking out loud, "Only speaks one language…" Wife says "monolingual" "No, only eight letters" "American!"Recent statistics indicate there are over 41 million native Spanish speakers and over 11 million billingual English/Spanish speakers in the USA. Total population of Spain 46 million. I think you underestimate your country's linguistic abilities!
And because most of the schools that do teach other languages use such poor methods, extremely few of those students graduate with an ability to communicate.Of those who speak a language other than English at home, 57% were foreign born and 43% were born in the United States. The latter are primarily U.S.-born children of immigrants."
Some schools do. Many don't. I could not communicate after five years of getting all 'A' in Spanish. Later, after I had partially overcome this by real-world usage, I was put in a so-called "second-year intensive" course at University of Oregon. The only two people who had any ability at all in that class were me and a guy who had lived in Mexico. Some of our classmates did not even know the letter 'h' is silent. In a third-year literature class, maybe half the class literally would not speak Spanish and got irritated at me when I did. And that was a school that would not give you the degree unless you got intermediate in an Oral Proficiency InterviewUSA does a good job teaching foreign languages.
Some schools do. Many don't. I could not communicate after five years...
There are ways to teach that are very effective. But in my years working toward a degree in Spanish teaching, actually doing some, and voraciously studying methods, it was clear that the more effective methods were not only not widely used, but viewed with extreme hostility by many employed teachers. And in on-line discussion groups of working teachers, I was often amazed at the lack of understanding of basic Spanish revealed by some of the posted questions.Wow. Sorry to hear that. Over the years I have begun to appreciate Culver City Jr High and High schools. Those language classes were better taught than my college courses.
Was it anything like this?I spent the first two weeks out of Sevilla speaking Polish and German, constantly translating so my kids wouldn't feel left out. And as the Polish lady was married to a non-anything-else-speaking Italian, she would translate for him at the same time I was for the kids and I picked up my first hundred Italian words (which proved useful when we fell in with a couple of Italians later - one fluent English speaker who had lived in NZ for a year and one non-English speaker......we still exchange postcards. I write an identical one to each of them in their respective villages and she translates and sends the translation to the guy via email!)
Currently walking on the Portuguese route and most pilgrims we have met are German.
I had the same experience just over 6 months ago.Currently walking on the Portuguese route and most pilgrims we have met are German.
Gracias. Olajá que le vaya bien.Hi, and welcome to the forum.
Just a few minutes ago, I wrote something about this on a thread about choosing your first camino. Have a look at that.
On the Camino Frances, you might actually be disappointed that you don't need to use your Spanish a lot. I think that almost any other route will put your hard-earned Spanish to work. Really the secret is to engage locals in conversation whenever you can, and to not get stuck in a bubble of other English-speaking pilgrims. You will often find it difficult to understand, but that is the way language learning goes! I haven't walked the Camino Madrid from Madrid to Sahagun, but people say that it is a very good route for interaction with people in towns, and it is possible that the Castilian accent will be easier than some regional accents.
I speak reasonable Spanish and it certainly enhances my Caminos.
I can confirm that the Camino de Madrid is a good route for speaking Spanish. There are few pilgrims and no large towns outside of Segovia. As I have said several times in other threads, the spirit of the camino manifested itself in (Spanish) conversations with locals on this camino for me, as opposed to the pilgrim interaction on (say) the Francés.I haven't walked the Camino Madrid from Madrid to Sahagun, but people say that it is a very good route for interaction with people in towns, and it is possible that the Castilian accent will be easier than some regional accents.
Thanks so much @André Walker - a fabulous story!! On the Road to Jerusalem the problem with dogs increases exponentially once you pass Rome. [And it is in fact undeniably true that an English lady was eaten by dogs in Turkey not very long ago, but that is a whole separate story....]My native language is Dutch, but I can also get around speaking Englisch, German, French. I like communicating with people from different backgrounds, cultures, countries. And I like speaking languages.
When I walked my first Camino, I quickly picked up some basic Spanish as I went along. By paying attention to locals in restaurants and bars: what do I hear them ordering and what are they getting served. That way I quickly learned the most important Spanish words: the ones I might need as a pilgrim.
Back home I took a Spanish course in which I learned the basic grammar and more words. Which proved to be very helpful, because just relying on basic knowledge of a language might get you into a situation you might want to avoid.
Like something that happened to my wife and me on a summer walking trip in Romania. We booked a walking holiday with a local company. The trip took us through the Carpathian mountains. An area where they weren't used to foreign visitors. The only tourism consisted of skiing by Romanians themselves in wintertime.
Communicating with locals was a big problem: in the small towns they didn't speak any foreign language. Also because often the younger generation had moved away due to lack of opportunities. If lucky, we would come across someones son or daughter who might have learned a bit of French. Turned out that was THE foreign language to be studied by younger Romanians, because French, like Romanian, has it's roots in ancient Latin. When I learned that, I thought I might have a go at reading Romanian. Using what I know of the Latin language.
At one occasion we were walking up a mountain. Where the road ended and a path continued there was a big sign about it being a nature reserve that was installed for the protection of the poplulation of bears, with funding bij the EU (probably the reason for the sign to be in English as well). With the English translation and my knowledge of the Latin language I carefully studied what was written in Romanian. And I was becoming more and more confident of my abilities to understand Romanian.
Further up the mountain my wife and I discovered that the trail would go straight ahead for about 3 kilometers, a moderate climb. Then making a very sharp left turn and again climbing moderately for about 3 km. Because we would end up at pretty much the same point where we were at the moment (just further up the mountain), we decided to just take the path that -with a very steep climb- would most likely take us to the same point as the original route.
At the start of this path there was this wooden barrier with an old wooden sign attached to it. In Romanian. Relying on my self confidence, I started reading it and said to my wife: it's OK, it just says what we have read on the big sign: that this is a nature reserve. So we started to climb, noticing that this wasn't a much used path. A bit further my wife discovered a very clear (and apparantly fresh) footprint of a bear. We quickly took a picture of it and continued our way as quiet as possible, hoping to get to see one (preferably from a greater distance). When we reached the top of the climb we indeed ended up on the original route. There was a young Romanian man waiting for us: he had heard us climbing up the mountain. When he learned that we were foreigners he started speaking French. He explained that although the entire region is a nature reserve for the wildlife, the mountain slope we had climbed was reserved as a rest area for the bears. Forbidden for humans to enter. And he added that is isn't wise to enter those areas, because those are the areas bears will flee to when they encounter humans, so they might not be very friendly to humans walking about in heir safe spots.
After that we decided to just stick to the route and visit Dracula's castle, which -even after sunset- might be much safer than the area we had just walked through.
Thanks @PelegrinYes, the Camino de Madrid must be a good one to speak to locals. It is said that Valladolid province on this Camino has the best Castilian. Nevertheless, and as a curiousty they have "laismo" which is incorrect.They say: la gusta ( correct le gusta). There is laismo in most Castilla y Leon ( who were the inventors).
Agree that the Frances is the one to avoid if you want to avoid English. I tried to learn French before the Haute Route via Pimsleur, and while I think it is an excellent program, it did not prepare me for conversation. It wasn't til I started taking classes at L'Alliance Française and tutoring that that happened. If you google something like "language practice pals online" you'll find several sites that will match you with someone who speaks your target language, and who wants to learn yours, and you can have zoom conversations.Hello all, I just joined the forum.
The Camino is one reason I started to learn Spanish; when I turned fifty-one, I decided I didn't want to die a monoglot.
After 2 3/4 years of self-study (Pimsleur, Duolingo, Mango languages, youtube, etc), I'm not near fluent, but I could get by -- I don't have anyone to speak Spanish with. By the time I can do a Camino, I hope to be near-fluent in Spanish.
Which route would need the most use of Spanish? When I go I want to immerse as much as possible.
Gracias por su respuesta timr.Old threads which are revived often don't get much traction but it is an interesting subject.
And welcome @davran I hope your plans go well
Way back @SabineP in post number two on this thread said exactly what I think!
One of the saddest quotes I see [often] on this forum (sad for me. I am not arguing. I am not evangelising. I am not telling other people what to do!!) is: 'you don't need Spanish, you can always find someone who speaks English or use Google'. That is often true, but for me is not the point.
I enjoy learning languages though it is by no means my area of expertise. I had French from school and Italian from living in Rome many years ago. I have KiSwahili too (and a variety of ancient languages).
After my first Camino I decided to learn Spanish - as languages go it is not difficult. I took 10 evening classes (always helpful just to get the pronunciation). Do they REALLY say 'th' all the time? YES!Then I continued with youtube and podcasts. As ever - use discretion there are two or three really good ones and most of what you need is in the free versions.
I agree absolutely with @jungleboy Madrid route particularly good for using and continuing to learn Spanish. So was the Invierno and so was the Baztán. The clue is simply in the least-travelled routes. On each of those routes I met VERY few if any other pilgrims, so I spoke to local people. I generally walk alone.
I believe that is simple courtesy to learn the greetings of any country I am going to visit. (And I am not telling other people they MUST do it!) You can do it for virtually any country on the planet in a couple of hours on Youtube. You don't need to know any grammar, you are just being polite and want to appear friendly. And I forget it as quickly as I learn it afterwards, but for example I ran marathons in Budapest and Ljubljana and it was nice to say hello!
[If you are only interested in CF, just stop reading here.] More recently I have been walking from Canterbury to Jerusalem the first part of which is the Via Francigena. So far I have been in (England), France, Italy, Vatican City, Albania, North Macedonia and Greece. Turkey next.
So I revived old French before setting out and for the first 1000 km my total encounter with native English speakers was two New Zealanders one evening. And I spoke French all the time - if you are going to stay with a family I think it is one way of repaying their hospitality. And if you cannot speak you are quite cut off. You can learn as you go. By the time I got to the Aosta valley my French had become better than my Italian. I studied for four years through Italian, and I thought it was quite good (!) but I was in a bar in a village in Val d'Aosta in Italy (where they speak both Italian and French) and was chatting to the barista when an elderly local man came in and I started chatting to him and I heard the barista say to him in Italian - 'Speak to him in French - he doesn't really speak Italian!!'
You don't need to be good at it!
Along the VF you do need to FIND your accommodation each day. It is not leaping out at you like on the CF. Enough French or Italian to make a simple phone call will really help. You really HAVE TO be able to tell them you are coming. And yes, you could manage with booking.com a lot of the time but it is never more costly and nearly always cheaper to make direct contact. People are sympathetic and interested and kind. Booking.com is a website!!!
I learned greetings in Albanian and Macedonian which got me a long way. It is worth learning the Cyrillic alphabet for N Macedonia so at least you can read the road signs and the menu. A small anecdote:
I can read New Testament Greek, but again it would at least be worth learning the alphabet for Greek, I did some online lessons in modern greek and got enough to get by. I firmly believe that even a few words of greeting make a difference even if you are then going to change to English.
If and when the pandemic wanes I will continue on through Turkey. I will be there for 6 or eight weeks. I have spent part of the last strange year learning Turkish.
So @davran I encourage you very much. If you walk the CF and get in with English speakers - the vast majority - you will not get to use your Spanish. And I know that a lot of people enjoy that and I wish them well. But If you are willing to use your Spanish, the Madrid route has very very good infrastructure and is well signed and if you are happy to spend your time talking to Spaniards I would say go for it.
If you would not be comfortable walking much of the time by yourself, you would need to factor this into your consideration. A highlight of that route on day two or three would be to stay with @rayyrosa - One of my most enjoyable camino stays ever! https://www.rayyrosa.com/casa-de-acogida-la-encomienda-de-rayyrosa
You can read my account here: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/a-short-walk-from-madrid.47865/
Once you get to Sahagun, you can continue to Leon and Santiago if you wish, and if your aim is to reach Santiago.
Buen camino.
Not to derail the thread, but if you have time, a good combination would be Madrid to Sahagún, Sahagún to Ponferrada (gives you some of the Camino Francés and some of the loveliest parts too), and Ponferrada to Santiago on the Invierno. The Invierno is absolutely a not to be missed camino and has all of those Madrid qualities (not too much pavement, either!).At first I thought the Camino Invierno would be it, but I feel I'm steered towards the Madrid route, as it seems to offer more of what I personally want.
Not to derail the thread, but if you have time, a good combination would be Madrid to Sahagún, Sahagún to Ponferrada (gives you some of the Camino Francés and some of the loveliest parts too), and Ponferrada to Santiago on the Invierno. The Invierno is absolutely a not to be missed camino and has all of those Madrid qualities (not too much pavement, either!).
But to get back to the original topic, it strikes me that this three year old thread has said it all. The only thing I would add comes from the other side of the equation — how exclusive those English language bubbles can be. I remember walking the Vdlp and spending the night at the albergue in Oliva de Plasencia. We were a group of 10 or 12 eating a communal dinner, all non-Spaniards except for 2. As is so frequently the case, English became the common language at the table, though not everyone was a native speaker. One of the Spaniards turned to the other and said — See, we don’t even have to leave Spain to go abroad. That was said in jest, I think, but it stung a bit. Spaniards in general speak much less English than the Portuguese, and especially when we’re in their country I think it’s a nice gesture for those who speak Spanish to include them in the conversation by being the translator.
Absolutely I agree!! And Happy New Year.As is so frequently the case, English became the common language at the table, though not everyone was a native speaker. One of the Spaniards turned to the other and said — See, we don’t even have to leave Spain to go abroad. That was said in jest, I think, but it stung a bit. Spaniards in general speak much less English than the Portuguese, and especially when we’re in their country I think it’s a nice gesture for those who speak Spanish to include them in the conversation by being the translator.
I didn't know about this, but there is a good explanation here. It is rather nice to know that my mangling of those pronouns might be acceptable somewhere!they have "laismo" which is incorrect.They say: la gusta ( correct: le gusta). There is laismo in most Castilla y Leon ( who were the inventors).
Even with my only one month of (intense) studying to A1 level in Spanish, I have been able to have many nice conversations with locals along the way, as well as Spanish pilgrims. And doing translation for pilgrims. What a difference it makes! And how warmly and friendly I have been treated by the Spanish,, just for speaking some of their language.As is so frequently the case, English became the common language at the table, though not everyone was a native speaker. One of the Spaniards turned to the other and said — See, we don’t even have to leave Spain to go abroad. That was said in jest, I think, but it stung a bit. Spaniards in general speak much less English than the Portuguese, and especially when we’re in their country I think it’s a nice gesture for those who speak Spanish to include them in the conversation by being the translator.
I believe that is simple courtesy to learn the greetings of any country I am going to visit. (And I am not telling other people they MUST do it!) You can do it for virtually any country on the planet in a couple of hours on Youtube. You don't need to know any grammar, you are just being polite and want to appear friendly.
Not to derail the thread, but if you have time, a good combination would be Madrid to Sahagún, Sahagún to Ponferrada (gives you some of the Camino Francés and some of the loveliest parts too), and Ponferrada to Santiago on the Invierno. The Invierno is absolutely a not to be missed camino and has all of those Madrid qualities (not too much pavement, either!).
But to get back to the original topic, it strikes me that this three year old thread has said it all. The only thing I would add comes from the other side of the equation — how exclusive those English language bubbles can be. I remember walking the Vdlp and spending the night at the albergue in Oliva de Plasencia. We were a group of 10 or 12 eating a communal dinner, all non-Spaniards except for 2. As is so frequently the case, English became the common language at the table, though not everyone was a native speaker. One of the Spaniards turned to the other and said — See, we don’t even have to leave Spain to go abroad. That was said in jest, I think, but it stung a bit. Spaniards in general speak much less English than the Portuguese, and especially when we’re in their country I think it’s a nice gesture for those who speak Spanish to include them in the conversation by being the translator.
Hi, @timrAbsolutely I agree!! And Happy New Year.
I stayed with a beautiful couple in France on the VF who offered unique hospitality in an otherwise pretty barren stretch. She had really good English through her job. And she asked at the table, where we had a wonderful family meal, if I would mind (trying) speaking French so that her husband would not be excluded. And it is encouraging. And they, like many others were willing to help me along in French and teach me a little bit. And in 45 continuous francophone days you can pick up quite a bit!
Timx
Afterwards, the minister invited the congregation to pray for his Swahili.
Gosh, "sad" is to put it lightly. As you say, no one needs to be fluent - but it's a matter of courtesy to at least try.Contrast that with a colleague of mine, who has been commuting to Vietnam for about 10 years. Spends about 4 months a year there. He doesn't speak one word of Vietnamese. "oh I'm no good at languages he says"
How sad is that?
When I arrived in Santiago in November of 2019, I carried the prayers and intentions of several Spanish women, who saw me as a pilgrim and asked me to carry their prayers to Santiago. Which I did.I am a fluent speaker of Portuguese, Spanish and English. Being able to communicate with locals in detail makes wonders for my caminos. Not in the sense of getting the right food of finding the right places, but of actually being able to solve complicated situations (such as medical emergencies) or to sharing really emotional stories.
When we walked the Portuguese, in an uphill somewhere around Rubiães we passed by a shepperd looking after his sheep. I greeted him and said in Portuguese his sheep were beautiful and fluffy. He asked if I spoke Portuguese and was going to Santiago (the gear gives it away). I replied yes to both.
"Oh, praise the lord. I need to make a prayer to Santiago, but my legs are not strong to go all the way there. I will have a surgery on my knees soon, and I'm terrified of it. I wanted to ask for Santiago's protection. Can you do that for me? Can you make a prayer in Santiago for me?"
I wrote down his name and promised I would. (Yes, I fulfilled the promise when I got to the cathedral). He was almost teary, and gave me 3 oranges from his garden.
Would I have had that interaction if I couldn´t speak his language? Probably not. I probably wouldn't even remember I saw a shepperd on that hill.
Gosh, "sad" is to put it lightly. As you say, no one needs to be fluent - but it's a matter of courtesy to at least try.
Once in Madrid I was waiting to enter the Convent of the Barefoot Sisters and a group walked out, angry and telling the people on the line it was a rip off. "They charge you 5 euros and no one can speak English in there! It's all in Spanish"
Well, it's a convent created by the Spanish kings, in the midle of Madrid... not sure what they expected.
For those wanting to learn a bit but without resources to pay for classes, Duolingo can be downloaded for free and has easy, basic lesson on your phone. Add on top some youtube videos and some reading and it can provide a great startMost Brierly guides also have a list of basic phrases at the start.
Hi, @timr
I have enjoyed reading this thread and reflecting on the challenges which I have with communicating when on camino in Spain. My first difficulty arose when I was only a couple of days into Spain, between Roncesvalles and Pamplona on my first pilgrimage. I stopped for a beverage at a cafe and, finding no seat inside, asked a man whom I saw sitting alone at an outdoor table if I could join him. He consented and I soon realized that he spoke only French, so I switched into French. He was critical of my French, and rude about it. This was somewhat discouraging, as my French was, and is, much better than my Spanish. I totally lost all confidence in my ability to speak either language. You were much luckier, @timr in the encouragement which you received. The following year, I walked from Oloron Ste Marie and recovered a bit of my confidence in French during the several days climb up to Somport.
Your story of learning to speak Kiswahili reminds me of a story told me by my younger brother, who spent quite a few years teaching at Rift Valley Academy at Kijabe, and took formal lessons in Swahili, as it was known then to the missionaries. He was invited to preach at a local church and did his best to prepare a sermon in Swahili for the occasion. Afterwards, the minister invited the congregation to pray for his Swahili. He gave any future sermons in English, with a local Kikuyu translator.
I am once again working on my Spanish, doing a review which helps me to remember vocabulary and grammar, but does little for my confidence. However, I walked from Madrid to Santiago via the Madrid and the Invierno in 2019 and do not recall any problems with getting what I needed in Spanish. This I attribute entirely to the kindness and patience of the locals. I could count on this wherever I went.
I am inclined to think that I was just unlucky in the man that I chose to sit with that day. My French was good enough to get me an honours degree in French (many years before) and to make me comfortable to live ten years in Montreal much closer to my first camino. I met no one with that degree of arrogance and rudeness during my time walking in France on my second camino. Unfortunately, as a Canadian speaking French had been a priority for me since childhood and I was vulnerable to his rudeness. In his post above,, @timr points out that his experience of speaking French when invited to do so by a native French speaker was much different, and he was able to go on to improve his French during an extended camino in France.Albertagirl, I've been told by people who travel much more than I that the Spanish-speaking countries are as tolerant of people trying to speak their language as the French aren't.
I have heard that statement about French people and my feeling, after six weeks walking in France speaking French all the time, is that if you don't make a strong strong effort with the accent they really and truly cannot make head or tail of what you are saying!! I am hoping I don't sound too stereotyping there.Albertagirl, I've been told by people who travel much more than I that the Spanish-speaking countries are as tolerant of people trying to speak their language as the French aren't.
I recall a friend who was travelling in France without a word of French telling me how he had managed to purchase eggs in a small store by doing a detailed performance of a hen laying an egg for the shopkeeper. who then pulled out a basket of eggs from under the counter. The shopkeeper was so entertained by this performance that, when a local man came in while my friend was still in the store, the shopkeeper managed to request that he repeat the performance for the entertainment of the local man.I have heard that statement about French people and my feeling, after six weeks walking in France speaking French all the time, is that if you don't make a strong strong effort with the accent they really and truly cannot make head or tail of what you are saying!! I am hoping I don't sound too stereotyping there.If you persevere and write it down if necessary, the penny will eventually drop! eg "Un oeuf, vs deux oeufs" for one of a thousand examples. French is as unpredictable in pronunciation as English. While Spanish and Italian (and kiSwahili for that matter) are absolutely straightforward.
There was a lady in a bar one day offering me saumon (salmon) one day and we were "good friend" but it took about 10 attempts to connect.
I have heard that statement about French people and my feeling, after six weeks walking in France speaking French all the time, is that if you don't make a strong strong effort with the accent they really and truly cannot make head or tail of what you are saying!! I am hoping I don't sound too stereotyping there.If you persevere and write it down if necessary, the penny will eventually drop! eg "Un oeuf, vs deux oeufs" for one of a thousand examples. French is as unpredictable in pronunciation as English. While Spanish and Italian (and kiSwahili for that matter) are absolutely straightforward.
There was a lady in a bar one day offering me saumon (salmon) one day and we were "good friend" but it took about 10 attempts to connect.
Neither do I want to stereotype but there is a big difference in which French region you are. Area around Paris/ Centre/ Loire n people can be rather snobbish about their language. And if they hear I'm from Belgium they think you are an illiterate...
I can still remember an incident ten years ago when an Australian friend and I visited a cheeseshop just outside Paris where my friend was in the process of buying cheese for an amount of more than thirty €. She spoke with an accent but all in all was perfectly understandable. The shopassistant just laughed in her face and asked me what my friend was talking about.
I told my friend to leave the cheeses on the counter and bye bye we said.
Now the more you go to the south, like Montpeliier, Toulouse or Perpignan the friendlier people are, but then you can actually smell Spain.
And oh yes, Bretagne is wonderful too, but then they are Celts!
no one needs to be fluent - but it's a matter of courtesy to at least try.
This a question for those fluent in Spanish.
When you are on the Camino:
- Do you always use "Tu" ?
- Do you always use "Usted"?
- Do you change depending on the person? With which criteria?
I am just curious.
I am definitely not fluent but here goes anyway. I had Spanish in high school and learned Latin American Spanish. I've read that in Spain things are more informal and the informal you more often so, being agéd enough to fall into the usted category I intended to use tu. Being used to the plural ustedes form though I likely used Usted more often than intended. On the other hand, I can't remember with what form was used for me. I was concentrating too much on getting the meaning of what was being said I guess. I wouldn't have cared either way. We pretty much got rid of the formal and informal second person long ago. Thou hast heard, correct?This a question for those fluent in Spanish.
When you are on the Camino:
- Do you always use "Tu" ?
- Do you always use "Usted"?
- Do you change depending on the person? With which criteria?
I am just curious.
My parents addressed even their new neighbours of the same age as Mr and Mrs, until they had agreed to use first names. Times have changed!The above is the way I was educated by my parents.
I learned Spanish in Latin America in my 20s, reasonably fluently at the time. I never ever used or heard vosotros, and always addressed strangers as Usted. My experience in Spain as a woman in her 60s and now 70s, is that almost everyone of any age or position uses "tu/vosotros" when addressing me - even though I am a stranger, older than them, etc. Occasionally someone will address me with Usted, but it is rare enough that I really notice when it happens.- Do you always use "Tu" ?
- Do you always use "Usted"?
- Do you change depending on the person? With which criteria?
Yes, but how do you distinguish between Tu and Usted in pantomime?When all else fails the commonality is pantomime!
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